Someone please explain in laymans terms what a scaler does? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 24 Old 05-19-2003, 01:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Ive read through the FAQ, but found nothing about what a scaler does or how it applies to htpc in laymans terms can someone please help? Thanks
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post #2 of 24 Old 05-19-2003, 01:21 PM
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There are 2 parts. Scaling and deinterlacing. Since you asked about the scaling part, that's the easier to describe, of the two. It's simply the process of taking image data which is at one resolution, and changing the size of it to fit another. For example, if you have an image that's 800x600 pixels, and you need it to be 1024x768, you must 'scale' that image UP to 1024x768.

The trick is not to simply do the resize, but to do the resize well, with good mathematical algorithms that add APPROPRIATE data to the interpolated pixels that are being added.

It's all about your perspective.

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post #3 of 24 Old 05-19-2003, 01:49 PM
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As Aaron says, and if I can add, one of the reasons for scalers is that some displays (such as projectors) can support higher resolutions (more lines) than is actually broadcast by the TV stations. It is a bit more complicated than this, but a TV broadcast may consist of only 270 lines of picture information. When displaying this on a big screen screen, something known as scan lines (black horizontal lines) are often visible. Using a scaler, it is possible to increase the number lines in the picture to match the display's capabilities, so that black scanlines are no longer visible in the picture.

Many displays/projectors have built-in scalers, but sometimes better results can be acheived using external devices. Regular TV's don't need scalers because they are usually designed specifically for regular broadcast signals.

HTPC's make great scalers and are often cheaper than commercial alternatives.
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post #4 of 24 Old 05-19-2003, 10:26 PM - Thread Starter
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so let me get this straight. A HDTV RPTV, for instance can actually have a better resolution than what is available on dvd's, which are 420p right? So with a scaler you can up the resolution to 720p, and this would result in a better picture? This doesn't make too much sense to me. Wouldn't the source actually determine the maximum resolution that you can have? I guess I am layest lay man out there.
P.S if you can also explain deinterlacing that would help plenty thanks
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post #5 of 24 Old 05-19-2003, 10:50 PM
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Yeah this is weird stuff the first time. You're not lame. You're on the right track already. A DVD has 480 interlaced vertical lines of resolution. If your TV can do 1080 interlaced lines, you could increase, or scale those lines to 1080. This doesn't necessarily mean you'll have a sharper image, but this is what good scalers want to try to do. Really the only reason to use a scaler was orignally based upon the use of the big screen CRT projectors. If you send a 480 line image to a CRT which is capable of razor sharp scan lines, you will see that each line will be drawn with a bunch of space between them (Just as MikeTV was saying in his post). This is referred to as 'seeing the scan lines'. This does not make for a very 'film-like' experience. So you need to 'fill in' those gaps between the scan lines. You do that by increasing the number of lines available for the projector to display. Voila, the need for a scaler.

Most modern digital projectors have built in scalers... for instance, if you send a digital projector whose native rate is 1024x768 pixels, an 800x600 signal, without being scaled, the image would simply show up centered in the middle with black borders. The projector will use an internal scaler to stretch and scale that 800x600 image into 1024x768 pixels. Now, no more black borders.

The problem with built in scalers in most projectors is that they are very inexpensive, and thusly do a very poor job of creating the pixels to fill in. These are called 'scaling artifacts'.

Deinterlacing is a completely different beast all-together. An interlaced image is made up of 2 fields, and only works because of a principle called "the persistence of vision". This means that the human eye will hold an image that it sees for a short amount of time. So if I took a picture, and cut it up into 480 lines horizontally and number them 1-480, you could take the even 240 of those 480 lines and call those field A. The remaining odd numbers lines will be called field B. If you look at field A by itself, it looks odd. If you looked at field A followed by field B very rapidly, say, 60 times/second, your eye, thanks to the persistence of vision, sees the image as one solid picture. You know have 480i, which is what you see on regular old NTSC TV broadcasts every day.

Now if you blow up up that 480i image to say 80" wide, and have a volley ball move rapidly from left to right, you'll see that the volley ball does look round, but actually has 'spikes' on the left and the right. This is because in fast motion, the field A lines are in a different place than the fild B lines. Very annoying, and difficult to watch.

Now enters de-interlacing. For this, there are VOLUMES of information on the different ways of doing this. Faroudja was the first to do it well, and to market it. This was called 'line doubling'. Why? I have no good answer, other than if you look at it as how many lines are there at any one time, with an interlaced image it's 240, and with a line doubled (de-interlaced) image, it's 480. Also known as 480p, or progressive because the image is scanned from top to bottom in one progressive sweep, just like your computer monitor.

So now, you have the all the background. First, de-interlace the image to get you to 480p and remove the de-interlacing artifacts. Now, scale that 480p image to the proper resolution required for your display device.

Whew... a lot to chew on, but hopefully it makes a little bit of sense.

It's all about your perspective.

Oz
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post #6 of 24 Old 05-20-2003, 12:49 AM
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I just finished explaining this exact same question to my friend who has a projector and didn't get why he needed an HTPC for scaling. He finally understood when I told him this.

Say a front projector can display 1366 x 768 lines of resolution. A DVD is 720x480. If you were to play the DVD on the projector with no scaling, you would see 720x480 pixels of information....so yes, the source determines the resolution. BUT, when you are only using 720x480 pixels, you are not using the entire display of the screen. Imagine watching a movie on a 100 inch screen and only having the movie play on about half of the screen, with the rest of it being black (unused pixels). Well , of course you want to fill all the pixels you have access to, and to do that you need a way to make 720x480 fit into a 1366x768 box. Hence the need to scale 720x480 to fit the 1366x768 box. But my friend persisted by saying "but, umm, when I play my DVD on my project it fills the whole screen so I dont get it???" Well, there are onboard scalers on display devices, but they are typically not nearly as good as the scalers on an HTPC.

HTPC scalers do a better job of this than the built in scalers on most display devices. Thats why we use HTPCs as our scalers.

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post #7 of 24 Old 05-21-2003, 12:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Wow thanks aaron and doc. Great explanation fellas, I really appreciate it, but hopefully you can answer a couple more questions for me. So basically the new projectors have built in scalers, but they are not as good as a htpc. What kind of a difference are we talking about between the built in ones and the htpc's? Secondly, would there be a need for a scaler or htpc on a rear projection tv? Would that depend if it is a crt, lcd, dlp, plasma, or lcos? Lastly I read in a thread a while ago about that new v-tech dvd player with the dvi output, and people were saying that this would kill the need for a htpc as a scaler? why is that? Im thinking that it has a scaler in it, but for $200 I can't imagine the scaler would be any good. So Im a little puzzled.
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post #8 of 24 Old 05-21-2003, 01:14 AM
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Well, all the new dlps/lcos, etc all have scalers built into them. And, its a personal preference whether or not you need an HTPC to do the scaling. For example, on the samsung 50 inch DLP RPTV, I personally don't need my HTPC to do any scaling on that type of unit. Sure, it could look a tad better, but for me the effort would not be worth the minor rewards. However, I do have friends who swear by using an HTPC over their DVD player on those DLP units. (my eyes can't really tell the difference). A 61 inch samsung DLP, then I might consider an HTPC...as the distortions become more noticable. Now, I also watch movies on a 130 inch screen with a front projector. Here, I definitely notice the slightest imperfections. I always watch DVDs on an HTPC when viewing on the 130 inch screen. And, even my crappy eyes can distinguish between my HTPC and a set top DVD player.

The newer dvd players with DVI, will in all likelyhood look better than the current crop of set top DVD players. Replacing an HTPC is another matter. Until I see those new units in action, its anyones guess how well they will perform as scalers. The DVI just gives a digital signal and has nothing to do with scaling. Also, a good software DVD players can cost about $100, but you get far more features from a software dvd player than you do from a set top DVD player. (editing aspect ratios, etc). If you've only seen those freebie low quality software dvd players, you should check out the good ones.

Most people use their HTPC for far more than just DVD playing. And, most likely you won't realize what you will use your HTPC for until you build/buy one. (I never dreamed I would be storing dozens of DVDs on my hard drive, until I started using my HTPC). I also find it much more satifying listening to MP3s on high quality speakers in 6.1 surround, than those old computer speakers.

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post #9 of 24 Old 05-21-2003, 10:46 PM - Thread Starter
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So why were people then able to scale up their resolution on movies after buying this player? Were they actually using the projectors scaler, and the only way to do this is through a dvi connection?
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post #10 of 24 Old 05-21-2003, 10:57 PM
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It removes scales from fish.

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post #11 of 24 Old 05-22-2003, 04:35 AM - Thread Starter
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mmmm fish...
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post #12 of 24 Old 05-22-2003, 04:35 AM
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I have a HTPC and the use TheaterTek and ffdshow. ffdshow is a free post processor and does further scaling and sharpening to the image. Before my computer I was using a Samsung dvd player and felt like my dvd quality was crap. I tried some other players and they all looked bad to me. My computer produces an incredible high def like image from dvds. I have a 50" Toshiba RPTV.

People have been swearing that the Bravo D1 and Samsunng 931 have wonderful picture quality. I tried a 931 with DVI and didn't like the picture. It was better than my old progressive scan but the picture was fuzzy and looked nowhere near as good as my HTPC.

I've had people at work try to explain to me that there is no way scaling can make the picture look any better. These people have never tried a HTPC or even know anything about scaling, they just say you can't make something from nothing. I've had people try and explain you can't take a JPEG and enlarge it have more detail. Well, you can say that but from experience I can tell you that my HTPC as a scaler brings out detail in the image I didn't see before. I would argue that really you're not making something from nothing but rather just making the image look like it should have in the first place. These cheap progressive scan DVD players just aren't good enough.
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post #13 of 24 Old 05-22-2003, 04:37 AM
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Hmm...I think you are getting confused by what DVI means.

The DVI 1.0 standard [DVI] is a serial high-speed digital connection providing a a maximum data rate of 495 Mbyte/s. The standard is primarily focused at providing a connection between a computer and its display device. A non-DVI DVD player will take the digital signal (mpeg2) from a DVD and convert it to an analog signal which is then passed over to your display device (say a front projector) which is then converted back into a digital signal. What a DVI DVD player allows you to do is to stay completely within the digital realm and never have to convert to analog. (Whenever you convert to an analog signal, you lose quality). That is why people like DVI...no loss of image quality.

Scaling is a completely different matter. The DVD player you refer to is just a DVD player with a DVI output on it. The onboard scaling of the $200 DVD player from "V" or the Bravo DVD player will be inferior to many high end projectors and HTPCs. BUT, its does a wonderful thing...it can deliver a pure digital signal to either your HTPC OR your display device (unscaled...if that is the way you want it). That is a big deal. Those who say, "this DVD player will negate the need for scaling" haven't a clue what they are talking about. But don't believe me, go read about it, here is a review of the player
http://www.projectorcentral.com/bravo_d1.htm

To quote Evan, "The bottom line is that you don't buy a Bravo D1 for its comprehensive scaling capability."

So, for you, this is your bottom line. If you have a display device with great on board scaling and DVI input and you have no other use for an HTPC besides playing DVD, then getting the Bravo DVD player may be a good choice for you. I think that is what you may have been thinking when you stated that some people thought that the DVI-DVD players would negate the need for an HTPC. I hope that doesn't further confuse you.

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post #14 of 24 Old 05-22-2003, 04:41 AM - Thread Starter
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so the bravo or the samsung dont actually scale the picture at all? or was it through the DVI connection were they able to scale it on there TV?
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post #15 of 24 Old 05-22-2003, 04:45 AM
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Both players scale to 720p and 1080i.
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post #16 of 24 Old 05-22-2003, 05:10 AM - Thread Starter
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with the scalers in the units, does this make them the best, or one of the best set top players?
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post #17 of 24 Old 05-22-2003, 06:14 AM
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No..no..no...they both scale. DVI has nothing to do with scaling...nothing at all. They are completely separate issues. Both samsung and Bravo have DVI both have built in scalers. DVI is just the transmission of the signal. Scaling is going from 480p (native DVD resolution) to say 1080i. Evan's point in his article is that the Bravo scaler is not top notch, you are buying the Bravo for the DVI capability not the scaling capablilty. At this point in time, you cannot expect a great scaler for $200 bucks. Like I said, you would get the DVD player with DVI for its ability to transmit a pure digital signal and then rely on your display device to do the scaling....because hopefully your display device (projector, tv, etc) has better scaling abilities than that 200 buck DVD player.

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post #18 of 24 Old 05-22-2003, 06:35 AM
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No..This does not by any means make them one of the best set top players. It depends on your set up. Just a couple extreme examples..say you have a Runco projector with great faroudja scaling built in and a DVI input, this will be your primary scaler. Then that Bravo DVD player is all you need to plug into your awesome projector and away you go. So that would be the optimal DVD player to purchase. (Hence people making comments like, I only need that DVD player, not an HTPC to play my DVDs.)

On the other hand, say you have a piece of crap RCA RPTV, with no DVI input. Then that Bravo is not the DVD player you would want to purchase.

For reference, I use a PLV-70 projector (roughly $5500 ), and there is no way I would only use the crappy built in scaler on that machine. I use my HTPC to do all the scaling. There are definitely better projectors in the $10K and up range that have superior scalers built in...and if I had one of those, I would consider by passing my HTPC and going for one of those DVI-DVD players. But I'm stuck with my "cheapy" $5K projector, so I'm using my HTPC....

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post #19 of 24 Old 05-22-2003, 08:49 AM
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Quote:
Evan's point in his article is that the Bravo scaler is not top notch, you are buying the Bravo for the DVI capability not the scaling capablilty.
Your point is well taken, but unless I'm misinterpreting the remarks of Bravo users in the DVD Hardware forum, many seem to be pleased with its scaling capabilities as well, especially on larger screen HD digital displays using 720p.

One possible reason for this could be the difference between video-based (60field) vs film-based (24fps) material. Film-based material (most commmercial DVDs) is easier to scale because reverse telecine (another form of de-interlacing) can be used to restore the original full progressive 24fps. Scaling the resulting progressive frames up to higher resolutions is much less complicated than scaling interlaced video content where the missing scanlines have to be filled in.

The steps for film content probably go something like this:
Reverse telecine 480i->480p24
Scale 480p24->720p24 or 1080p24
Re-telecine 720p24->720p60, or 1080p24->1080i

Since the scaling step with film-based material can go progressive->progressive, better image integrity can be maintained with fairly simple scaling/resampling routines. This is why even fairly inexpensive DVD scalers may be able to do an adequate job, especially for 720p which is the most straightforward. There'll certainly be many variations in how this is implemented though, some more successful than others.

The improved PQ of DVI (as others have mentioned) is also an important issue to be sure. If the display can pass the DVI's digital RGB directly to the screen with no digital-to-analog conversion, a noticeable improvement in PQ results. Until the recent release of the DVI players, many users of higher-end displays have been stuck feeding their expensive digital screens with inferior YUV analog sources. Hence their elation at finally being able to deliver a true digital source at the display's native resolution (in many cases 720p).

I can't disagree that an HTPC offers some greater flexibility in terms of tweaking the scaling quality, and customizing resolutions for different types of displays. But with the exception of new MyHD-120 users, most HTPCers are limited to feeding analog YUV to their HDTV displays. It's possible to go directly from a graphics card's DVI to an HDTV's DVI input. But few users seem to have found the magic combination of hardware, software (including HDCP countermeasures), resolutions and timings to get this to work well for their particular display. Good DVI DVD player/scalers will potentially take care of all of this out-of-the-box.

In any event, which approach to scaling (HTPC, the HDTV display itself, or a DVI DVD player) works best for any given user may depend on a variety of factors.

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post #20 of 24 Old 05-22-2003, 10:21 AM
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One adjunct to the above. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see ATI (or a 3rd party) either upgrade their current DVI drivers, or come out with a new DVI card to make their output fully HDTV HDCP compatible. Much of the infrastructure for this (HDCP TMDS transmitter, HDTV decoding, etc.) already seems to exist on their current DVI-I cards. In fact it's probably easier to implement HDTV support through DVI than through their current method of using YPbPr component adapters, because DVI doesn't require conversion to analog YUV.

What may be stalling this is the concern about HD piracy if copy-protection isn't properly implemented, and to a lesser extent perhaps concern about the risk of burn-in on HDCP-DVI displays not intended for computer use.

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post #21 of 24 Old 05-22-2003, 02:01 PM
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"But few users seem to have found the magic combination of hardware, software (including HDCP countermeasures), resolutions and timings to get this to work well for their particular display. Good DVI DVD player/scalers will potentially take care of all of this out-of-the-box. "

I completely agree. If you are not computer savvy and have little technical knowledge....going the HTPC route is not the way to go. I am not in the computer field, but I could easily build a computer from scratch, yet setting up my HTPC with powerstrip, etc, did take quite awhile to figure out. You will get a better picture, but you do have to know what you are doing. For many the best thing to do will be to simply buy a set top DVD player.

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post #22 of 24 Old 05-22-2003, 09:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by jigrillo
mmmm fish...
I did a search on ebay and that's what came up. Video scaler does a much better job of finding the right stuff.

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post #23 of 24 Old 05-23-2003, 09:27 PM
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So is DVI better than VGA?

"For deep bass, the listener is not really listening to the speaker, but rather, is listening to the room as it is being played by the speaker."

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post #24 of 24 Old 05-23-2003, 11:40 PM
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DVI-D is digital RGB, while VGA is analog RGB. Based on that, I'd have to say yes.

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