Netflix 4K on Windows 10 with a Catch - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 40 Unread 11-21-2016, 03:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Netflix 4K on Windows 10 with a Catch

https://blogs.windows.com/windowsexp...O82wCoyiFdE.97

My read of the above press release is that I won't be able to just drop a UHD capable graphics card into my HTPC and start watching 4K Netflix. I will have to replace my motherboard with one that will support Kaby Lake processors. Hopefully I'm wrong as I would hate to see my relatively new Hazwell build become obsolete.
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post #2 of 40 Unread 11-21-2016, 04:42 PM
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AFAIK, the only real requirements were Windows 10 (software DRM) and a cutting edge GPU (hardware DRM + 4K HEVC). I don't know of any secret DRM hardware on the new Intel CPU's that make it a requirement, though all new GPUs like Kaby Lake have the required DRM hardware built in. Netflix hasn't posted anything yet, so I'm gonna wait and see.
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post #3 of 40 Unread 11-21-2016, 05:01 PM
 
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**To run Netflix in 4K on a PC device, it must have a 4K-capable screen and use a 7th Gen Intel® Core™ Processor.

and i though my gtx1070 would be enough....
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post #4 of 40 Unread 11-21-2016, 05:08 PM
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It's really terrible news if DRM is now infecting PC CPU hardware directly, instead of being managed by the OS, thus giving you the ability to escape it by not using Windows.
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post #5 of 40 Unread 11-21-2016, 06:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Just Mark View Post
https://blogs.windows.com/windowsexp...O82wCoyiFdE.97

My read of the above press release is that I won't be able to just drop a UHD capable graphics card into my HTPC and start watching 4K Netflix. I will have to replace my motherboard with one that will support Kaby Lake processors. Hopefully I'm wrong as I would hate to see my relatively new Hazwell build become obsolete.
Rumors of this for months, i've posted it several times.
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post #6 of 40 Unread 11-21-2016, 06:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Just Mark View Post
https://blogs.windows.com/windowsexp...O82wCoyiFdE.97

My read of the above press release is that I won't be able to just drop a UHD capable graphics card into my HTPC and start watching 4K Netflix. I will have to replace my motherboard with one that will support Kaby Lake processors. Hopefully I'm wrong as I would hate to see my relatively new Hazwell build become obsolete.
You are correct. New hardware is required because of DRM.

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Originally Posted by puddy77 View Post
The reason why 4k streaming on a PC is starting with these Kaby Lake processors doesn't have to do with processing power, it has to do with the new Playready DRM and Protected Media Path, which are hardware based.

https://blogs.windows.com/windowsexp...icrosoft-edge/
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post #7 of 40 Unread 11-21-2016, 07:20 PM
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I see Intel 100 series boards can be a bios update for Kaby Lake.

So maybe it's just a cpu upgrade facing some Skylake based htpc'ers?
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post #8 of 40 Unread 11-21-2016, 10:13 PM
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That's weak! Why do we continue to be treated like this? Why can't my 6 core AMD system be compatible!
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post #9 of 40 Unread 11-21-2016, 11:04 PM
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That's weak! Why do we continue to be treated like this? Why can't my 6 core AMD system be compatible!
Tell AMD to add the required drm hardware.

It also requires a drm capable web browser, which the only one is Edge.
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post #10 of 40 Unread 11-22-2016, 12:44 AM
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Hopefully this will be a complete failure so as to not encourage Intel/Microsoft/Netflix to pull more stunts like this.
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post #11 of 40 Unread 11-22-2016, 05:19 AM
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It was always my understanding that the new DRM hardware was going to be built into the GPU and not the AMD/Intel chipset. Even the literature for the new DRM schema does not say it must be built into the CPU, just that the DRM ASIC must be present for the newest level of DRM protection.
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post #12 of 40 Unread 11-22-2016, 07:24 AM
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Ars Technica says that Nvidia Pascal cards do support Playready DRM even though they are not yet listed as compatible, which Nvidia mentions here.

I would also like to add that a few months ago, Sony announced their Ultra streaming service with 4k and HDR would be coming to PCs in 2017, requiring Kaby Lake because of their "security."

Last edited by puddy77; 11-22-2016 at 08:04 AM.
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post #13 of 40 Unread 11-22-2016, 06:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LexInVA View Post
It was always my understanding that the new DRM hardware was going to be built into the GPU and not the AMD/Intel chipset. Even the literature for the new DRM schema does not say it must be built into the CPU, just that the DRM ASIC must be present for the newest level of DRM protection.
Maybe Intel paid netflix to make that announcement?
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post #14 of 40 Unread 11-22-2016, 08:07 PM
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Again, so a $50 android streaming box is ALLOWED to stream in 4k but a $500 AMD Windows HTPC isn't even though it is more capable of doing so thanks to DRM rules. Wish we'd gotten a presidential candidate would even knows what DRM is short for.
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post #15 of 40 Unread 11-22-2016, 09:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Afroteddy View Post
Again, so a $50 android streaming box is ALLOWED to stream in 4k but a $500 AMD Windows HTPC isn't even though it is more capable of doing so thanks to DRM rules. Wish we'd gotten a presidential candidate would even knows what DRM is short for.
Yea they can already cap all their streams in 4K, the drm is just getting sidestepped right now anyway. If people want it, they can get it.
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post #16 of 40 Unread 11-22-2016, 10:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Afroteddy View Post
what DRM is short for
Digital Restrictions Management?
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post #17 of 40 Unread 11-22-2016, 11:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Afroteddy View Post
Again, so a $50 android streaming box is ALLOWED to stream in 4k but a $500 AMD Windows HTPC isn't even though it is more capable of doing so thanks to DRM rules. Wish we'd gotten a presidential candidate would even knows what DRM is short for.
The thing is, a PC is open, so drm is something that gets added in. The android box has drm already built into it. The PC is more capable because it is open, but the people who provide the content don't want the open-ness because of piracy concerns. Since they dictate how they will distribute their product, it's why the drm free versions are limited to 720p and stereo. Basic drm gets you 1080p and surround sound. Advanced drm gets you 4k.

Since the android box already includes platform drm, they feel it's acceptable.
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post #18 of 40 Unread 11-23-2016, 11:10 AM
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"Microsoft announced via its blog that Netflix will stream four new "Gilmore Girls" episodes (sigh) in 4K. The company further noted that you must use Windows 10, the Edge browser, and 7th Generation Kaby Lake processors, as well as a premium subscription to unlock the emotional rollercoaster." by Paul Alcorn
http://www.tomshardware.com/news/net...-4k,33070.html

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post #19 of 40 Unread 11-23-2016, 11:40 AM
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I think it's a little early to "write-off" this as the only possible way to stream Netflix in 4K... if it does in fact remain the only method I'd guess Microsoft went out of their way to enable it and Netflix wasn't interested in the first place... in providing mainstream support (for the PC).

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post #20 of 40 Unread 11-23-2016, 12:23 PM
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I think it's a little early to "write-off" this as the only possible way to stream Netflix in 4K... if it does in fact remain the only method I'd guess Microsoft went out of their way to enable it and Netflix wasn't interested in the first place... in providing mainstream support (for the PC).
"Write off" was not intended. It just struck me as a curious announcement worthy of noting. At most it may say hold off on equipment purchases until we see how this all shakes out. When the bright ideas of PAP and DRM got implement I had to junk an AVR and rebuild my HTPC. I do not know that this is a repeat of history. Technology marches on often leaving boot prints on my bank account.
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post #21 of 40 Unread 11-23-2016, 12:39 PM
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"Write off" was not intended. It just struck me as a curious announcement worthy of noting. At most it may say hold off on equipment purchases until we see how this all shakes out.
I understand. However since I just picked up a Roku Premiere+ (4K HDR) for $69 I'm not going to give it even a passing thought. Internet streaming has left the PC station and as far as I'm concerned... won't be back. Even if you were to get Netflix, how about HBO, Showtime and the endless others.

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post #22 of 40 Unread 11-24-2016, 08:59 AM
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This is silly. There are already 4k rips of Netflix shows all over the internet. These drm restrictions won't make any difference with regards to piracy.
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post #23 of 40 Unread 12-31-2016, 05:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LexInVA View Post
AFAIK, the only real requirements were Windows 10 (software DRM) and a cutting edge GPU (hardware DRM + 4K HEVC). I don't know of any secret DRM hardware on the new Intel CPU's that make it a requirement, though all new GPUs like Kaby Lake have the required DRM hardware built in. Netflix hasn't posted anything yet, so I'm gonna wait and see.
You are correct, 4K DRM requires Playready 3.0 which requires a hardware Trusted Execution Environment. AMD's Carrizo APU and modern AMD dGPUs have a ARM Trustzone trusted execution environment which is what the XB1 S has. The PS4 moved the ARM block out of the APU to Southbridge which has the HDCP 2.2 and that is how all PS4s support HDMI 2.0a. AMD APUs and dGPUs do something similar to support HDMI 2.0a, the media is encrypted by a HDCP 2.2 routine in the TEE before it gets to the HDMI port. This allows both the HDMI and DP to have HDCP 2.2 which is a requirement of Playready 3.0 as it reports the hardware ability to protect the media to the Player which can be a supported Browser or APP.

That only Intel's APU is mentioned when Carrizo was first with Playready 3.0 support is due to Intel's market clout. The summer Windows 10 update was primarily for TPM 2.0 ( Trusted Platform Module (TPM) technology is designed to provide hardware-based, security-related functions.) and was not compatible with older TPM versions. I.E., all TPM routines and everything that relied on it has to be rewritten. The day after this update the XB1 S supported UHD Blu-ray. Intel, AMD and Nvidia were required to provide drivers for their products before this update.
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Last edited by jeff_rigby; 12-31-2016 at 05:22 AM.
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post #24 of 40 Unread 01-03-2017, 11:10 AM
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Kaby Lake desktop processors are finally coming out. Anandtech has a rundown:

http://www.anandtech.com/show/10959/...00k-i3-7350k/6

Quote:
On the subject of premium content, in their presentation Intel rather explicitly mentioned that the improved decode capabilities were, in part, for “premium content playback.” When we pushed Intel a bit on the matter – and specifically on 4K Netflix support – they didn’t have much to say beyond the fact that to play 4K Netflix, you need certification. Based on what was said and what was not said (and what we know about the certification process) our educated guess is that the updates in Kaby Lake-U/Y include some new DRM requirements for 4K content, and 4K Netflix should hopefully be good to go with the new platform. However on that note, because of those DRM requirements and that this is being pitched as a new feature for Kaby Lake, we suspect that when 4K Netflix streaming does come to the PC platform, Skylake owners are going to be out of luck.
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post #25 of 40 Unread 01-03-2017, 01:17 PM
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post #26 of 40 Unread 01-04-2017, 11:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeff_rigby View Post
You are correct, 4K DRM requires Playready 3.0 which requires a hardware Trusted Execution Environment. AMD's Carrizo APU and modern AMD dGPUs have a ARM Trustzone trusted execution environment which is what the XB1 S has. The PS4 moved the ARM block out of the APU to Southbridge which has the HDCP 2.2 and that is how all PS4s support HDMI 2.0a. AMD APUs and dGPUs do something similar to support HDMI 2.0a, the media is encrypted by a HDCP 2.2 routine in the TEE before it gets to the HDMI port. This allows both the HDMI and DP to have HDCP 2.2 which is a requirement of Playready 3.0 as it reports the hardware ability to protect the media to the Player which can be a supported Browser or APP.

That only Intel's APU is mentioned when Carrizo was first with Playready 3.0 support is due to Intel's market clout.
This is all quite interesting (and appreciated info and explanation), but it seems like despite what you say about the ARM Trustzone in AMD GPUs and PlayReady 3.0 support, Netflix 4K still won't work on systems so-equipped? I mean unless it does work and Netflix just hasn't marketed as such?

Another thought--does the CPU have to have PlayReady 3.0 features, even if most everything is being done in a GPU that supports it? I.e. would it be possible only AMD APUs, Carrizo and later, would be capable and not just any old CPU and newer (GCN 4th?) AMD dGPU?

Finally, I also see a lot of mention of only being able to use Edge. Is Netflix saying they aren't going to update their UWP app to be 4K capable? Because that sounds pretty stupid if true. Netflix is much better through the app than through browser. I mean Edge or no Edge, I'm pretty sure you still can't get multi-channel audio of any kind for Netflix over browser. Sure you might get 4K but the audio is going to suck in movies if it's only stereo.
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post #27 of 40 Unread 01-04-2017, 11:50 PM
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I mean Edge or no Edge, I'm pretty sure you still can't get multi-channel audio of any kind for Netflix over browser. Sure you might get 4K but the audio is going to suck in movies if it's only stereo.
Edge supports Dolby Digital Plus: https://blogs.windows.com/msedgedev/...icrosoft-edge/
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post #28 of 40 Unread 01-04-2017, 11:58 PM
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Again, so a $50 android streaming box is ALLOWED to stream in 4k but a $500 AMD Windows HTPC isn't even though it is more capable of doing so thanks to DRM rules.
While someone already explained that these Android devices already have DRM features in hardware (that PCs don't have), the real irony here is that the majority of these boxes aren't even used for legal content streaming. Instead most people are using their "kodi boxes" (as they affectionately call them ) for playing back we-all-know-what kind of content.

As someone else mentioned there's already 4K Netflix content out there for [illegal] downloading/streaming--pirates will always find a way. However I'm guessing the bean counters figure that by keeping it more restricted on PCs (according to hardware) it will be less rampant. I'm not sure how that really plays out in reality as where there's a will there's a way, as mentioned.

If anything we shouldn't be that mad at Netflix. I mean they do have a responsibility (and requirement) from a lot of the content owners to use reasonable measures to secure it--those reasonable measures being the industry proposed and accepted standards (PlayReady 3.0 in this case).

Really it's the people that have made businesses over selling zillions of "kodi boxes" (even using Kodi's name unfavourably) and all the people that think it's oh-so-cool to buy them and "get TV and movies for free", that have made this more a concern among content owners/distributors. DRM is basically always "brought on" by the pirates and the complications, cost, and general brunt of DRM is always felt most by the legitimate/paying customers. Sad really.
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post #29 of 40 Unread 01-05-2017, 12:02 AM
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Oh okay, that's good. Netflix's site does not make that clear and I haven't done browser streaming of Netflix in some time.

Still, wouldn't you think they'd update the UWP app for 4K??? Are they serious in thinking browser use of the service is the way forward? That actually seems a bit backwards!
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post #30 of 40 Unread 01-05-2017, 07:24 AM
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This is all quite interesting (and appreciated info and explanation), but it seems like despite what you say about the ARM Trustzone in AMD GPUs and PlayReady 3.0 support, Netflix 4K still won't work on systems so-equipped? I mean unless it does work and Netflix just hasn't marketed as such?

Another thought--does the CPU have to have PlayReady 3.0 features, even if most everything is being done in a GPU that supports it? I.e. would it be possible only AMD APUs, Carrizo and later, would be capable and not just any old CPU and newer (GCN 4th?) AMD dGPU?
Why not test your ati card yourself.


Apollo lake works, it's not in the PR. This is intel spending marketing money.
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