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post #1 of 11 Old 01-20-2017, 12:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Motherboard for HTPC

Hi i'm looking for a Intel kaby lake motherboard that fits the following:
  • 200 series chipset (Union Point)
  • HDMI 2.0 (4096 x 2160 @ 60Hz)
  • Can support a dGPU (this will be added later)
  • Mini-itx

I have only been able to find one motherboard and that is ASRock Fatal1ty Z270 Gaming-ITX/ac but its seems to be expensive and not in stock anywhere here in Sweden (when was/will this released?)

One more question the B250 and Q250 chipset have fewer than 16 PCIe lanes how does that work with a GPU? (they use 16 if i remember correctly?)

Last edited by Petoj87; 01-20-2017 at 12:52 AM.
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post #2 of 11 Old 01-21-2017, 11:48 PM
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Intel processors have an dedicated x16 PCI Express lane that is usually for graphics. It can be used by other cards from x1 to x16. A chipset that says it has 14 or 12 lanes. Those lanes are PCI Express lanes and they are used for networking, sound, and other peripherals.

Kaby Lake processors only have HDMI 1.4. Its DisplayPort can output 4K at 60 Hz, so you will need an adapter. The Club3D Displayport 1.2 to HDMI 2.0 UHD could be used, but it is one extra component that can fail. I suggest a nVidia GTX 1050 or above because it features HDMI 4K HDR and HDCP 2.2.
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post #3 of 11 Old 01-23-2017, 07:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tecknurd View Post
...
Kaby Lake processors only have HDMI 1.4....
Really? Are you serious?
I've been waiting for years to have Intel processors support HDMI 2.0.
You made me feel bad...
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post #4 of 11 Old 01-23-2017, 07:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by tecknurd View Post
Intel processors have an dedicated x16 PCI Express lane that is usually for graphics. It can be used by other cards from x1 to x16. A chipset that says it has 14 or 12 lanes. Those lanes are PCI Express lanes and they are used for networking, sound, and other peripherals.

Kaby Lake processors only have HDMI 1.4. Its DisplayPort can output 4K at 60 Hz, so you will need an adapter. The Club3D Displayport 1.2 to HDMI 2.0 UHD could be used, but it is one extra component that can fail. I suggest a nVidia GTX 1050 or above because it features HDMI 4K HDR and HDCP 2.2.
Are you sure that they only have HDMI 1.4?
The new nuc's have HDMI 2.0, https://www-ssl.intel.com/content/ww...nuc7i3bnh.html and they sport a Kaby Lake CPU with a iGPU..

Last edited by Petoj87; 01-23-2017 at 07:49 AM.
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post #5 of 11 Old 01-23-2017, 02:37 PM
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I said it once before, I shall say it again....

HDMI 2.X on Kaby Lake requires Thunderbolt 3, which - besides adding TB3 - adds an intermediary that brings HDMI 2.X and HDCP 2.X, or a stand-alone conversion chip between the GPU and the HDMI output, which is what Apollo Lake uses. Kaby Lake does have HDMI 1.4, if left unaltered, so you will see boards/builds for Kaby Lake that do not have HDMI 2.X due to the additional expense of adding TB, which can only come from one source, Intel. The Kaby Lake NUCs all have HDMI 2.X because of the addition of TB.
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post #6 of 11 Old 01-23-2017, 11:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LexInVA View Post
I said it once before, I shall say it again....

HDMI 2.X on Kaby Lake requires Thunderbolt 3, which - besides adding TB3 - adds an intermediary that brings HDMI 2.X and HDCP 2.X, or a stand-alone conversion chip between the GPU and the HDMI output, which is what Apollo Lake uses. Kaby Lake does have HDMI 1.4, if left unaltered, so you will see boards/builds for Kaby Lake that do not have HDMI 2.X due to the additional expense of adding TB, which can only come from one source, Intel. The Kaby Lake NUCs all have HDMI 2.X because of the addition of TB.
Thanks that clears it up!
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post #7 of 11 Old 01-24-2017, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by LexInVA View Post
I said it once before, I shall say it again....

HDMI 2.X on Kaby Lake requires Thunderbolt 3, which - besides adding TB3 - adds an intermediary that brings HDMI 2.X and HDCP 2.X, or a stand-alone conversion chip between the GPU and the HDMI output, which is what Apollo Lake uses. Kaby Lake does have HDMI 1.4, if left unaltered, so you will see boards/builds for Kaby Lake that do not have HDMI 2.X due to the additional expense of adding TB, which can only come from one source, Intel. The Kaby Lake NUCs all have HDMI 2.X because of the addition of TB.
The following stats that HDMI limts to 1.4.

http://ark.intel.com/products/95442/Intel-Core-i3-7100U-Processor-3M-Cache-2_40-GHz-

This means your a dead wrong. Any kaby lake processor that outputs 4K and 60 Hz, will have to include an adapter chip. This adapter chip converts DisplayPort to HDMI. It does not use a Thunderbolt for the conversion. The following could be used.

Club3D Displayport 1.2 to HDMI 2.0 UHD (CAC-1070)
https://www.amazon.com/Club3D-Displayport-1-2-HDMI-CAC-1070/dp/B017BQ8I54

I prove my statement. Prove your information.
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post #8 of 11 Old 01-24-2017, 02:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tecknurd View Post
The following stats that HDMI limts to 1.4.

http://ark.intel.com/products/95442/...ache-2_40-GHz-

This means your a dead wrong. Any kaby lake processor that outputs 4K and 60 Hz, will have to include an adapter chip. This adapter chip converts DisplayPort to HDMI. It does not use a Thunderbolt for the conversion. The following could be used.

Club3D Displayport 1.2 to HDMI 2.0 UHD (CAC-1070)
https://www.amazon.com/Club3D-Displa.../dp/B017BQ8I54

I prove my statement. Prove your information.
How exactly am I wrong? You're saying what I said, except as a third-grader might say it. We're talking about INTEGRATED outputs. The kind that MOTHERBOARDS have. Intel's Thunderbolt 3 implementation includes an LSPCON bridge from MegaChips to convert one of the DP outputs from the GPU to HDMI 2.0 and adding HDCP 2.2 to the transmission, allowing any integrated GPU with DP outputs to have HDMI 2.0 output on a board, if desired. That's why the Skull Canyon NUC and the high-end Kaby Lake NUCs are packing HDMI 2.0 and Thunderbolt 3. In all Apollo Lake and Kaby Lake products with HDMI 2.0 and no Thunderbolt controller, the same LSPCON is used.

Adapters, like the one you are referring to, use similar LSPCON chips, but they don't have the ability to add HDCP 2.2 to the signal and can only "repeat" whatever version of HDCP is put out by the DisplayPort they are connected to. So, while that adapter would work great on current Nvidia or AMD cards that have HDCP 2.2, it would not fully work on Kaby Lake DP outputs, which do not carry HDCP 2.2. In looking at the current crop of Kaby Lake boards, many don't have DP and are using HDMI 1.4, DVI-D, and VGA. Some are using one DP 1.2 and one HDMI 1.4 port. Almost all of the boards, even premium ones, do not have Thunderbolt 3, but can use Thunderbolt add-in-cards. What does that tell you, Snowflake?

Here's a little bit more from AnandTech that confirms what I said....

Last edited by LexInVA; 01-24-2017 at 03:12 PM.
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post #9 of 11 Old 01-25-2017, 01:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LexInVA View Post
How exactly am I wrong? You're saying what I said, except as a third-grader might say it. We're talking about INTEGRATED outputs. The kind that MOTHERBOARDS have. Intel's Thunderbolt 3 implementation includes an LSPCON bridge from MegaChips to convert one of the DP outputs from the GPU to HDMI 2.0 and adding HDCP 2.2 to the transmission, allowing any integrated GPU with DP outputs to have HDMI 2.0 output on a board, if desired. That's why the Skull Canyon NUC and the high-end Kaby Lake NUCs are packing HDMI 2.0 and Thunderbolt 3. In all Apollo Lake and Kaby Lake products with HDMI 2.0 and no Thunderbolt controller, the same LSPCON is used.

Adapters, like the one you are referring to, use similar LSPCON chips, but they don't have the ability to add HDCP 2.2 to the signal and can only "repeat" whatever version of HDCP is put out by the DisplayPort they are connected to. So, while that adapter would work great on current Nvidia or AMD cards that have HDCP 2.2, it would not fully work on Kaby Lake DP outputs, which do not carry HDCP 2.2. In looking at the current crop of Kaby Lake boards, many don't have DP and are using HDMI 1.4, DVI-D, and VGA. Some are using one DP 1.2 and one HDMI 1.4 port. Almost all of the boards, even premium ones, do not have Thunderbolt 3, but can use Thunderbolt add-in-cards. What does that tell you, Snowflake?

Here's a little bit more from AnandTech that confirms what I said....
Where you are wrong is in order to get 4K and 60 Hz, Thunderbolt is required. You did say "HDMI 2.X on Kaby Lake requires Thunderbolt 3." This is incorrect. All is needed is a converter chip. The converter chip that is used is LSPCON from MegaChips.

The LPSCON bridge as you call it. It can't do Thunderbolt. FYI, the MegaChips LPSCON that you linked is actually a converter and not a bridge.

The Intel Skull Canyon NUC (NUC6i7KYK) contains the MegaChips LPSCON converter and a Intel Thunderbolt controller. The NUC7i3BNH only has the converter and does not have a Thunderbolt controller.

nVidia GeForce GTX 1050 and above is the only graphics that supports 4K at 60 Hz and HDCP 2.2 through HDMI 2.0b. AMD RX series can only do 4K at 60 Hz with HDCP 2.2 through DisplayPort. AMD only supports up to 2.0 for HDMI. Intel Kaby Lake and AMD RX series have similar limits because they both need a converter or adapter for their DisplayPort that only provides 4K at 60 Hz.
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post #10 of 11 Old 04-18-2017, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by tecknurd View Post
Where you are wrong is in order to get 4K and 60 Hz, Thunderbolt is required. You did say "HDMI 2.X on Kaby Lake requires Thunderbolt 3." This is incorrect. All is needed is a converter chip. The converter chip that is used is LSPCON from MegaChips.

The LPSCON bridge as you call it. It can't do Thunderbolt. FYI, the MegaChips LPSCON that you linked is actually a converter and not a bridge.

The Intel Skull Canyon NUC (NUC6i7KYK) contains the MegaChips LPSCON converter and a Intel Thunderbolt controller. The NUC7i3BNH only has the converter and does not have a Thunderbolt controller.

nVidia GeForce GTX 1050 and above is the only graphics that supports 4K at 60 Hz and HDCP 2.2 through HDMI 2.0b. AMD RX series can only do 4K at 60 Hz with HDCP 2.2 through DisplayPort. AMD only supports up to 2.0 for HDMI. Intel Kaby Lake and AMD RX series have similar limits because they both need a converter or adapter for their DisplayPort that only provides 4K at 60 Hz.
Teknurd is correct as I see it. Thunderbolt 3 and HDMI 2.x arent connected. What is going on is that intels alpine ridge thunderbolt controller can be used as a lspcon. In the future, the controller may have hdmi 2.0 functionality on silicon, but for now its "used" as a lspcon. This means that ultimately its up to the motherboards manufacture to decide if a MB will implement hdmi2.x or not. With or without thunderbolt 3. Kaby hdmi 2.0 will be better than skylake hdmi 2.0.
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post #11 of 11 Old Today, 10:38 PM
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Any guess as to when less expensive mini-ITX motherboards with on-board HDMI 2.0 will likely become available?
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