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post #31 of 60 Old 07-11-2017, 06:55 AM
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Originally Posted by long_pn View Post
GTX 960 doesn't support VP9.2 10bit hardware decoding needed for Youtube 4K HDR video

GTX 960 is Maxwell Family.


"Nvidia Maxwell GM206 & Pascal GPU family have full fixed function VP9 hardware decoding for highest decoding performance and power efficiency.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VP9


https://developer.nvidia.com/display...nuts-and-bolts

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post #32 of 60 Old 07-11-2017, 03:49 PM
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Basic VP9 decoding (P0/P1) is supported by the GeForce 950/960 and all Pascal cards. Pascal cards apparently have some support for Profile 2, but only in certain GPUs, which I do not know at this time.
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post #33 of 60 Old 08-18-2017, 04:29 PM - Thread Starter
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No way. Any time you transcode you lose quality, like a photocopy of a photocopy, even if you're upscaling. It's largely pointless unless you're upscaling to UHD using some fancy TensorFlow machine learning tech. It mostly makes sense to transcode to save space or for codec compatibility.

MadVR has excellent upscaling tech in realtime but it needs a hefty GPU to do it all at the highest possible settings.

I would leave your 1080p content as is, unless you are ripping your own 1080p Blurays, in which case it actually makes great sense to transcode high bitrate AVC to HEVC in 10-bit. 10-bit transcoding even with 8-bit source content results in less quantization errors, thus less banding, thus less dithering required, thus better compression (dithering in static frames looks like noise to a video codecs, like film grain). Noise compresses poorly.

AFAIK there is a new NVenc setting to remove banding, which is definitely something I would suggest trying unless you own a high end Sony TV which does de-banding / bit depth upgrade from 8- to 10- bit internally.

NB I worked in VR video production that pushed the limits of the hardware encoding / decoding capabilities of all these videocards. NVidia works much better, IMO. Although the AMD 480 is decent too. I want to buy an AMD Vega 10 for my next videocard but I'm worried that it will never support Netflix or UHD Bluray playback. I'm going to wait until all this shakes out before upgrading.

I really want an HDMI 2.1 videocard with VRR and HBM2 memory, with excellent performance for HEVC / VP9 decoding in hardware that I can do FI on my PC. DmitriRender is the best, hardly any visible artifacts and way more stable than SVP. I highly recommend HTPC users give it a try. One of the best reasons to decode video on a PC is to add FI (if you don't already have it) and then take advantage of 60 fps all the time.
I should have made it clear earlier in this thread - I am largely taking existing 1080P content and re-encoding it at 2160P in h265.

You're right, anytime you transcode you're risking a loss in quality. But here's the thing: I have a HTPC in my living room and it's not powerful enough to do a lot of this processing in real time. For instance, if I want to take a 1080p 24fps file and play it back at 30fps 2160P, my HTPC can't do that in real time.

So I'm basically doing the transcode on one PC, a much more powerful PC, then producing a h265 file that I can playback on my htpc.

An obvious solution would be to put the much more powerful PC in the living room. But I can't do that; the thing is a beast. It's semi-noisy, it's big, and it generates a lot of heat. I don't want that in my living room.

Another thing about transcoding - keep in mind that our 2160P sets are already transcoding. For instance, if I set the resolution on my HTPC to 1080P 24Hz, my TV will upscale it to 2160P. I've tried dozens of different combinations, and to me, the best looking results by far are to set my HTPC to 2160P 30hz and play a file that is ALSO 2160P and 30Hz. If I set the PC to 1080P and 24fps, the "motionflow" effect is very good (it's being done by the TV, not the PC) but the picture is very soft.

Obviously, YMMV. I like a sharp picture with motionflow, but a lot of people don't like motionflow.
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post #34 of 60 Old 08-19-2017, 01:42 PM
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I should have made it clear earlier in this thread - I am largely taking existing 1080P content and re-encoding it at 2160P in h265.
Can you explain why you're doing this? Don't many AVRs and 4K TVs do upscaling already? (and even some set top boxes) What are you gaining by encoding 1080p content into 2160p?
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post #35 of 60 Old 09-15-2017, 11:08 PM
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So is there anything that will work for a PC that only supports low profile cards? I just got a 4K TV today in preparation for the launch of the Xbox One X. My HTPC just has a Intel G3220 with integrated graphics, which worked just fine for 1080P HEVC files. Obviously it won't support 4K, so I'm looking at spending as little as possible to make it happen. It doesn't look like that is going to happen though.
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post #36 of 60 Old 09-16-2017, 06:41 AM
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So is there anything that will work for a PC that only supports low profile cards? I just got a 4K TV today in preparation for the launch of the Xbox One X. My HTPC just has a Intel G3220 with integrated graphics, which worked just fine for 1080P HEVC files. Obviously it won't support 4K, so I'm looking at spending as little as possible to make it happen. It doesn't look like that is going to happen though.

There really are no acceptable options at this point. Low-profile cards and low-end GPUs have been replaced by integrated graphics. The best you can get is a GeForce 1030, which isn't really a good card for HTPC use, though it will check all the basic media playback options for Internet content. That card was designed for systems like yours, but you need to be running Windows 10 to properly use the card and get the latest media tech. Once HBM goes mainstream for AMD and Nvidia cards, it will be possible to have low-profile HTPC-friendly video cards again, because the power consumption will be lower with HBM and the GPUs will have the latest video decoding tech. Unfortunately, it looks like that may be a few years away.
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post #37 of 60 Old 09-16-2017, 07:33 AM
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Originally Posted by long_pn View Post
GTX 960 doesn't support VP9.2 10bit hardware decoding needed for Youtube 4K HDR video

Haven't come across any UHD HDR the GTX 960 cannot play? Haven't come across anything it can't play for that matter. I'd imagine newer NVidia cards would be equally if not higher performing when chosen properly. Just suggesting the 960 since I know it works first hand and a used model for a '4k HTPC for the Poors' would run about $100. I know because I just sold one.


I go to https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCve...GBI5t9g/videos and copy url into MPC-BE playlist and it works perfectly. These are HDR videos YouTube offers. If there are others, I'd be happy to test them. I'm using a very outdated DIY HTPC and leave everything up to this semi outdated video card with stellar results. Nothing special. There's also a YouTube app built into my panel that streams these although the quality is less than desired as with most streaming video I've experienced.
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post #38 of 60 Old 09-16-2017, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by LexInVA View Post
There really are no acceptable options at this point. Low-profile cards and low-end GPUs have been replaced by integrated graphics. The best you can get is a GeForce 1030, which isn't really a good card for HTPC use, though it will check all the basic media playback options for Internet content. That card was designed for systems like yours, but you need to be running Windows 10 to properly use the card and get the latest media tech. Once HBM goes mainstream for AMD and Nvidia cards, it will be possible to have low-profile HTPC-friendly video cards again, because the power consumption will be lower with HBM and the GPUs will have the latest video decoding tech. Unfortunately, it looks like that may be a few years away.
Is there a socket 1150 CPU with integrated graphics that can handle local streaming of 4K HEVC content? If all I have to do is swap the CPU, that's fine. I just don't want to have to replace the mobo, cpu, case, and add a video card. That's basically a new build, and I've already over extended myself this year with the TV and the rackmount server I bought earlier this summer.
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post #39 of 60 Old 09-16-2017, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by DGenerateKane View Post
Is there a socket 1150 CPU with integrated graphics that can handle local streaming of 4K HEVC content? If all I have to do is swap the CPU, that's fine. I just don't want to have to replace the mobo, cpu, case, and add a video card. That's basically a new build, and I've already over extended myself this year with the TV and the rackmount server I bought earlier this summer.
Add-in cards are your only option and if you want the foot-long instead of the six-inch, you'll have to just build a new machine with Windows 10. Upgrading to Broadwell wouldn't work for you because none of the desktop CPUs have the Intel HD Graphics hardware that is HEVC capable. Broadwell was mostly a mobile affair, so the best video decoding is on the mobile versions of that, which did get updated GPU drivers to allow basic hardware decoding of HEVC via the EU (shaders).

There are inexpensive CPU/MOBO options to build a new 4K HTPC, if you want to go that route. The low-end Intel boards that come with a low-end Intel CPU/GPU are being updated with the new CPU and GPU hardware (Gemini Lake) that is 4K capable and has HDMI 2.0, so they can be used to make an inexpensive HTPC.

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post #40 of 60 Old 09-16-2017, 07:49 PM
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Originally Posted by DGenerateKane View Post
Is there a socket 1150 CPU with integrated graphics that can handle local streaming of 4K HEVC content? If all I have to do is swap the CPU, that's fine. I just don't want to have to replace the mobo, cpu, case, and add a video card. That's basically a new build, and I've already over extended myself this year with the TV and the rackmount server I bought earlier this summer.

I think you're missing the basic point. You don't need to upgrade anything but a video card. Why folks are stuck on stacked CPU/GPU's I don't know? They are limited. All the other components have nothing to do with decoding and rendering. If you can't fit a full sized card (to take advantage of multi cooling fans for silence and better circuitry) then you might have to switch out whatever doesn't accommodate a full sized card. I think PCIe daughter cards are available so you could even lay one down flat somehow and snake your HDMI cable in. Then you wouldn't need to make new accommodations for anything.
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post #41 of 60 Old 09-17-2017, 02:15 AM
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Originally Posted by brazen1 View Post
Haven't come across any UHD HDR the GTX 960 cannot play? Haven't come across anything it can't play for that matter. I'd imagine newer NVidia cards would be equally if not higher performing when chosen properly. Just suggesting the 960 since I know it works first hand and a used model for a '4k HTPC for the Poors' would run about $100. I know because I just sold one.


I go to https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCve...GBI5t9g/videos and copy url into MPC-BE playlist and it works perfectly. These are HDR videos YouTube offers. If there are others, I'd be happy to test them. I'm using a very outdated DIY HTPC and leave everything up to this semi outdated video card with stellar results. Nothing special. There's also a YouTube app built into my panel that streams these although the quality is less than desired as with most streaming video I've experienced.
Since I don't have the GTX 960, I just referred to infos in the net that only GP107, GP108 have vp9 profile 2 10-bit hardware acceleration. Maybe things have changed with latest nvidia drivers, then that's good news.
Can you run DXVA Checker to confirm that, e.g. a GTX 1050 with vp9.2 hw acceleration should look like that:
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.ph...51#post1787451
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post #42 of 60 Old 09-17-2017, 07:44 AM
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No vp9.2 showing in DXVA Checker but I don't understand? Is that supposed to be a deciding factor that the 960 is limited and can't play something (Youtube 4K HDR video) in this case? I ask because I went to youtube, 'The world' which is the video you linked in your screenshot, copied the url into MPC-BE, and played it. OSD shows HDR, 2160p @ 60Hz 10 bit, 1000 nits, etc. It looks like it's supposed to. I also have the same test video local and everything is the same.
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post #43 of 60 Old 09-17-2017, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by brazen1 View Post
I think you're missing the basic point. You don't need to upgrade anything but a video card. Why folks are stuck on stacked CPU/GPU's I don't know? They are limited. All the other components have nothing to do with decoding and rendering. If you can't fit a full sized card (to take advantage of multi cooling fans for silence and better circuitry) then you might have to switch out whatever doesn't accommodate a full sized card. I think PCIe daughter cards are available so you could even lay one down flat somehow and snake your HDMI cable in. Then you wouldn't need to make new accommodations for anything.
I'm not missing the point, replacing the cpu would be an easy fix. I'd never heard of a daughter card before. I've looked into it, and it could be a viable solution. I have to open up my HTPC and see just how much room I have to work with inside though. I don't recall there being very much. I honestly don't know if there is anywhere I could just lay the card down though. I have a Silverstone ML03B HTPC case, with an ATX PSU, the G3220 with stock cooling, one stick of RAM, a 2.5 inch SSD and two 80mm fans. The case cables are ridiculously long and take up a lot more space than necessary.
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post #44 of 60 Old 09-17-2017, 02:28 PM
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Well, I was going through parts availability lists on NewEgg today for some builds I'm doing and it turns out that some companies did (quietly) release dual-slot low-profile GeForce 1050 TI cards this year. I'm not surprised that I never saw any of these in stores or reviewed on any of the tech sites I visit, as they are a niche item with most consumer and DIY PCs not having low-profile slots. Because low-profile slots are usually limited to business desktops with a compact/SFF footprint, low-profile video cards have historically been low-end models with DDR that are intended to be low-cost and low-performance upgrades for PCs that need upgrades for today's basic level of media and display functionality, like yours does. Zotac in particular has a model that should do nicely, as it lines up with the specs of a full-sized model and it doesn't seem funky.

https://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...82E16814500417

If you can afford it, it will have you covered for 4K, though I think you'd be better off just building a new system at this point. For what you pay for that card, you can get one of the upcoming low-end Intel boards with everything you need for a basic 4K HTPC and have money left to spend on other components. The new boards will have M.2 slots, so you can use the available HDD and external expansion in your case for storage and a UHD-BD drive, which means you'll have everything you could want for streaming and local playback.
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post #45 of 60 Old 09-17-2017, 06:46 PM
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Well, I was going through parts availability lists on NewEgg today for some builds I'm doing and it turns out that some companies did (quietly) release dual-slot low-profile GeForce 1050 TI cards this year. I'm not surprised that I never saw any of these in stores or reviewed on any of the tech sites I visit, as they are a niche item with most consumer and DIY PCs not having low-profile slots. Because low-profile slots are usually limited to business desktops with a compact/SFF footprint, low-profile video cards have historically been low-end models with DDR that are intended to be low-cost and low-performance upgrades for PCs that need upgrades for today's basic level of media and display functionality, like yours does. Zotac in particular has a model that should do nicely, as it lines up with the specs of a full-sized model and it doesn't seem funky.

https://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...82E16814500417

If you can afford it, it will have you covered for 4K, though I think you'd be better off just building a new system at this point. For what you pay for that card, you can get one of the upcoming low-end Intel boards with everything you need for a basic 4K HTPC and have money left to spend on other components. The new boards will have M.2 slots, so you can use the available HDD and external expansion in your case for storage and a UHD-BD drive, which means you'll have everything you could want for streaming and local playback.
That's interesting. I might just see if that card will fit in my case. I'd rather just upgrade this build than replace it, as I won't have a use for it anymore. I already have two other HTPC's in my house. I also don't want to wait for new hardware to be released, I'd like to just get it now.
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post #46 of 60 Old 09-17-2017, 10:10 PM
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Originally Posted by brazen1 View Post
No vp9.2 showing in DXVA Checker but I don't understand? Is that supposed to be a deciding factor that the 960 is limited and can't play something (Youtube 4K HDR video) in this case? I ask because I went to youtube, 'The world' which is the video you linked in your screenshot, copied the url into MPC-BE, and played it. OSD shows HDR, 2160p @ 60Hz 10 bit, 1000 nits, etc. It looks like it's supposed to. I also have the same test video local and everything is the same.
It's weird, I'm not sure either. Is that the madVR OSD or the mpc-be OSD ? We know that youtube is adaptive to the viewing conditions such as the display resolution, streaming speed etc., so one url link can give you different viewing formats from sd to 8k vp9.2 hdr.
Are you using youtube-dl.exe ? It allows you to download exactly the vp9.2 hdr format file from the URL. Once downloaded, you can play it and monitor the CPU and GPU usages, if it's played smoothly by the GPU (not the CPU) then GPU can hw accelerate the video format.

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post #47 of 60 Old 09-17-2017, 11:16 PM
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GPU drivers can invoke hybrid decoding using both the video block and compute units/shaders/execution units/whatever they are called in the product description. Nvidia's new NVDECODE API does that - on several generations of GPU - and it's possible they have implemented a similar thing via new PureVideo/DXVA code in the recent drivers. Unfortunately, Nvidia is pretty opaque when it comes to such things, so I can't say for sure what they are doing without testing hardware that I don't have.
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post #48 of 60 Old 09-18-2017, 02:44 PM
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It has been awhile since I would call myself an HTPC Enthusiast, however I have replaced an older, much more expensive and complicated HTPC with a cheaply built one that does all I have required. I used a cheap mobo that has H265 hardware decoding: ASRock J3455-ITX with integrated Intel Quad-Core Processor, available for under $75 at Newegg

With a stick of RAM, I run LibreELEC and Kodi off a USB stick, and it plays everything I have tried yet for under $110 USD. I have not yet tried to get a blueray drive to work with it, but am sure that I will be able to figure out a solution. It is essentially the same as an Android box now, but in my nice aluminum case with lots of room for hard drive storage. It even works with my old Windows MCE remote control.

As well, all the conversation about re-encoding all your files to 2160 H265 raises a few questions in my head, the main one being why? If a movie is coming from a 1080p source, then you are not going to get any more resolution than that no matter what you do with the file. The TV can upscale on the fly, and should look the same unless you are doing a great deal of post processing during that re-encode. Also, the file sizes are going to be larger, and those new encodes wont play on your phone or any other devices that dont support H265. If you want your UHD Blueray movies to play on it, you could rip and encode them, likely as quickly as easily as re-encoding an existing file, then keep that on your drive for easy access.

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post #49 of 60 Old 09-19-2017, 12:40 AM
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It has been awhile since I would call myself an HTPC Enthusiast, however I have replaced an older, much more expensive and complicated HTPC with a cheaply built one that does all I have required. I used a cheap mobo that has H265 hardware decoding: ASRock J3455-ITX with integrated Intel Quad-Core Processor, available for under $75 at Newegg

With a stick of RAM, I run LibreELEC and Kodi off a USB stick, and it plays everything I have tried yet for under $110 USD. I have not yet tried to get a blueray drive to work with it, but am sure that I will be able to figure out a solution. It is essentially the same as an Android box now, but in my nice aluminum case with lots of room for hard drive storage. It even works with my old Windows MCE remote control.

As well, all the conversation about re-encoding all your files to 2160 H265 raises a few questions in my head, the main one being why? If a movie is coming from a 1080p source, then you are not going to get any more resolution than that no matter what you do with the file. The TV can upscale on the fly, and should look the same unless you are doing a great deal of post processing during that re-encode. Also, the file sizes are going to be larger, and those new encodes wont play on your phone or any other devices that dont support H265. If you want your UHD Blueray movies to play on it, you could rip and encode them, likely as quickly as easily as re-encoding an existing file, then keep that on your drive for easy access.
That board might just be what I need. That's tempting. I have a mini ITX build in another room for an HTPC, I could replace the board on it and swap their locations. Hmm.
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post #50 of 60 Old 09-19-2017, 06:30 AM
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That board might just be what I need. That's tempting. I have a mini ITX build in another room for an HTPC, I could replace the board on it and swap their locations. Hmm.

That board isn't what you need. You need the replacement for it, which is what I suggested, and those are coming out soon. The new boards are designed for 4K and have native HDMI 2.0 output and updated video decoding hardware paired with Intel's SGX, which is what you need for protected media playback of 4K sources like UHD-BD and downloads from the upcoming 4K video services. If you got the current one, you'd just toss it out in short order when you realized it didn't have the capabilities to do what you want.
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post #51 of 60 Old 09-19-2017, 07:41 AM
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I honestly just don't see the point in trying to build a PC that supports protected 4K, the requirements are ridiculous, and those sources are easier, and generally better in a standalone device (sorry, but I wouldn't touch PowerDVD if it was free).

I'm just going to stick with LibreELEC on my Chromebox until there's a way to rip my UHD Blu-ray collection, and then I'll look to upgrade, which will be easy since rips don't have any protection to deal with.

In the mean time everything 4K goes through my Panasonic UB900.
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post #52 of 60 Old 09-19-2017, 12:14 PM
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That board isn't what you need. You need the replacement for it, which is what I suggested, and those are coming out soon. The new boards are designed for 4K and have native HDMI 2.0 output and updated video decoding hardware paired with Intel's SGX, which is what you need for protected media playback of 4K sources like UHD-BD and downloads from the upcoming 4K video services. If you got the current one, you'd just toss it out in short order when you realized it didn't have the capabilities to do what you want.
I see. Well then, I guess I'll just wait if they're going to be priced similarly. Is there an ETA on their release?
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post #53 of 60 Old 09-19-2017, 03:43 PM
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I see. Well then, I guess I'll just wait if they're going to be priced similarly. Is there an ETA on their release?
The current info says they should be released later in the year, probably for the holiday sales period, to compete against AMD's new APUs as a low-cost solution for those who need the most basic and inexpensive performing products.
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post #54 of 60 Old 09-30-2017, 03:09 PM
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Looks like AMD's Raven Ridge has been kicked forward to next year, if the latest leaks are accurate. AMD probably wants to go head-to-head and toe-to-toe with Intel's best - Cannonlake - and Ryzen had some issues at launch due to AMD not having hardware for Microsoft to molest in their Windows 10 R&D groups, which put a dent in sales. That also means AMD will have more time to get PlayReady functionality fully worked out, which is required for Windows 10 and 4K streaming and content download services.
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post #55 of 60 Old 10-07-2017, 11:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by John van Ommen View Post
If you followed steps 1-3, you have the following:

1) a UHD tv
2) a PC that's capable of UHD output.
3) an Nvidia GPU that can accelerate the encoding and decoding of 4K content.

There isn't a lot of 4K content out there, so an upscaler is needed to turn 1080P or even 720P content into 2160P. There's quite a few ways to do this:

1) if you set your HTPC to output 2160P and you play a 1080P clip, your playback software can scale the 1080P file to 2160P. This is probably the easiest method. On my HTPC, I found that the results looked a bit 'soft.'
2) Theoretically, the television should be able to upscale 1080P to 2160P. This didn't work on my set. YMMV
3) The method that worked the best for me was to upscale the clips themselves. So we're taking a 1080P or a 720P clip and we're re-encoding it to 2160P. Here's how I do that:

NVEncC64.exe --vbrhq 2500 --codec h265 --output-buf 128 --output-res 3840x2160 -i my1080Pfile.mp4 -o my2160Pfile.h265

Here's what the switches do:
First, we're setting the bitrate to 2500kbps using the "vbrhq" switch. The file is being upscaled to 2160P using the "output-res" switch. The input file is denoted by "-i" and the output file is denoted by "-o"

You can get NVEncC64 here : rigaya34589.blog135.fc2 dot com
The page is in Japanese; the link to NVEncc65 is on the right hand side of the page.

I don't have enough posts to post a link yet.
I made a tweak to the process this week, and the results have been stunning.

Here's what I did:

The UHD panel in my TV isn't 3841x2160, it's 4096x2160 Up until this week, I've been encoding everything in 1920x1080 or 3840x2160. This week I switched to a horizontal resolution of 4096 - the exact same dimensions as the panel in my TV. I didn't think this was some genius move, I just figured that it's dumb to rescale my 1080p content when encoding, then rescale AGAIN from 3840 to 4096.

I figured the effect would be subtle.

Wow, was I wrong!

The improvement in sharpness was unmistakable. If you pause the picture, you can practically count ever hair on an actors head. I was watching "Skyfall" and you could count every line in someone's face:



This screencap really doesn't do it justice; the video looks twice as detailed as this.

I'm no expert here, but what I think is happening is that doing the resize in NVencc64, rather than in MPC, is yielding a superior resize filter. From looking at the documentation for resize filters, there seems to be a dozen different ways to do it, and each has their strengths and weaknesses. Some are fast, some are sharp. I'm guessing the one used by MPC is "fast."

Another possibility is that the resize from 3840 to 4096, done by MPC, has issues because it's not an integer multiple. IE, if my video files were 2048 pixels across or 4096 pixels across, that would be alright. But when resizing from 3840 pixels across to 4096 across, that's a multiple of 1.066666, which might introduce aliasing. If you've ever set a 1920x1080 computer monitor to 1600x900 or 1280x720, you know what I'm talking about. The fact that the resolution isn't an integer multiple creates aliasing. But I was surprised that the effect was apparent even at resolutions of 4096x2160. But I suppose this makes sense; a 65" panel is similar to four panels that measure 32.5" in diameter, and I can *definitely* tell if there's an aliasing problem on a 32.5" panel viewed at a distance of a few feet. (My living room is fairly shallow, I watch TV at a distance of less than three meters, and I've had lasik surgery, so my eyesight is better than 20/20.)

I don't know enough above NVencc to be certain, and it's documentation is in Japanese. All I can tell you is that the quality of the image is STUNNING. Arguably the sharpest picture I've seen in my home, superior to even UHD streaming on Netflix. (I upgraded my home WiFi to make that a reality. It looks very nice, but this looks substantially better.)


Another thing I did was to upgrade my PC. I put a $120 Nvidia card in my HTPC. MPC appears to support hardware decoding of H265 files, because the playback is rock solid with the GTX 1050 card. My HTPC uses an AMD APU, and the specs indicate that it offers hardware decoding of H265. But the NVIDIA is smoother. So I'd speculate that both the AMD APU and the Nvidia GPU support H265 decoding, but MPC only supports it for Nvidia?

Someone with greater knowledge of what software supports which decoders and encoders may provide more info.

All I know is that this setup looks fantastic.


Side note - I spent a few hours today trying to get all of this working under ffmpeg. I have no idea why anyone would go this route, when nvencc just works right out of the box. No need to compile ffmpeg, no need to download software, nvencc works like a charm.


Last edited by John van Ommen; 10-07-2017 at 11:06 PM.
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post #56 of 60 Old 10-08-2017, 06:51 AM
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Isn't adding a $120 card making it not affordable for the poors? I think the lesson here is that there isn't a 4K HTPC for the poors.

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post #57 of 60 Old 10-08-2017, 10:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John van Ommen View Post
The UHD panel in my TV isn't 3841x2160, it's 4096x2160


Are you sure? That's very unlikely, there are almost no UHD TVs that are 4096 native, certainly no cheap ones. How did you determine that it's 4096 native? What model is it? If you just looked at the highest resolution it accepts and saw 4096, it's very likely that it only accepts that, most 4K displays accept 4096x2160, but the vast, vast majority are 3840x2160 panels.

Quote:
I'm no expert here, but what I think is happening is that doing the resize in NVencc64, rather than in MPC, is yielding a superior resize filter. From looking at the documentation for resize filters, there seems to be a dozen different ways to do it, and each has their strengths and weaknesses. Some are fast, some are sharp. I'm guessing the one used by MPC is "fast."
You've changed too many things here to make any judgement on what caused the change you see. Go back and change one thing at a time and then you can know what change had the effect you want.

Quote:
Another thing I did was to upgrade my PC. I put a $120 Nvidia card in my HTPC. MPC appears to support hardware decoding of H265 files, because the playback is rock solid with the GTX 1050 card. My HTPC uses an AMD APU, and the specs indicate that it offers hardware decoding of H265. But the NVIDIA is smoother. So I'd speculate that both the AMD APU and the Nvidia GPU support H265 decoding, but MPC only supports it for Nvidia?
You're wasting your time transcoding if you've got a GTX 1050, just change your renderer to madVR and configure it optimally for your card/display and you'll get better results than either nvencc or ffmpeg scaling, and you wont' be wasting your time transcoding, nor introducing new compression artifacts.
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post #58 of 60 Old 10-08-2017, 11:28 AM
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Facepalm.

You cannot add resolution to a video file by re-encoding it to a higher image size. You're taking a 1080p file, encoding it to 2160p and thinking it's somehow magically stunning? I'll say it again, you cannot add clarity or quality to a video file

You're also compariing it to Netflix UHD, which is a heavily compressed stream = poorer quality. Re-encoding is a horrible suggestion and will usually result in degraded image quality. But somehow yours is sharper than the original 1080p movie. It's magic.

That's why studios just re-encode their blu-ray disc to 2160p. Why go remaster off the original film/digital RAW footage when you can re-encode and it's stunning?

Compare it to an actual UHD reference disk in an actual UHD player on that 4K TV. Then you will see what actual UHD can do.
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post #59 of 60 Old 10-08-2017, 12:52 PM
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Facepalm.

You cannot add resolution to a video file by re-encoding it to a higher image size. You're taking a 1080p file, encoding it to 2160p and thinking it's somehow magically stunning? I'll say it again, you cannot add clarity or quality to a video file
In defense of the OP, there are cases where this is not a bad idea. Basically if your playback device supports playing the higher resolution, but doesn't do a very good job scaling, it can be beneficial to process your files offline with advanced upscaling/processing algorithms and end up with a better result. I use this for animated titles I have on DVD which aren't available on Blu-ray. Some specialized avisynth/vapoursynth processing and re-encoding from 480p to 1080p does a much better job than letting Kodi/LibreELEC on my Chromebox handle it. Of course this is the exception rather than the rule.

Though in the general case, especially if you're using a regular PC, and even more so if you're already using MPC-HC which supports madVR, you're better off just leaving the source alone and letting madVR scale it for you.

Quote:
You're also compariing it to Netflix UHD, which is a heavily compressed stream = poorer quality. Re-encoding is a horrible suggestion and will usually result in degraded image quality. But somehow yours is sharper than the original 1080p movie. It's magic.
FWIW, it's not necessarily sharper than the original movie, but (especially if it's a cheap 4K TV) it might be sharper than the TV's built-in scaling, or than the onboard video's scaling.
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post #60 of 60 Old 10-08-2017, 03:05 PM
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In defense of the OP, there are cases where this is not a bad idea. Basically if your playback device supports playing the higher resolution, but doesn't do a very good job scaling, it can be beneficial to process your files offline with advanced upscaling/processing algorithms and end up with a better result. I use this for animated titles I have on DVD which aren't available on Blu-ray. Some specialized avisynth/vapoursynth processing and re-encoding from 480p to 1080p does a much better job than letting Kodi/LibreELEC on my Chromebox handle it. Of course this is the exception rather than the rule.

Though in the general case, especially if you're using a regular PC, and even more so if you're already using MPC-HC which supports madVR, you're better off just leaving the source alone and letting madVR scale it for you.



FWIW, it's not necessarily sharper than the original movie, but (especially if it's a cheap 4K TV) it might be sharper than the TV's built-in scaling, or than the onboard video's scaling.
I guess the primary issue is the OPs understanding of what an HTPC duties are and his expectations. He goes on to say "So I thought I'd figure out how to do 4K playback for as little as humanly possible.". Then starts complaing about hardware encoding and the cost vs. years old CPU?!?!? I hope his next thread is a complaint why his Mustang won't carry a stack of 8'x4' drywall to build his theater.

Encoding isn't meant to be done on an HTPC. HTPC is supposed to decode, stream and play content. If you're building something to those specs, you can have something great for a few hundred dollars and be done with it. The complaint about the funding is silly. "Poor" people aren't running around looking at 4k TVs with HTPC to re-encode their Blu-Ray rips or whatever they download. You can build or buy a moderately priced one though. If you're looking to rip/encode or whatever, that's going to obviously cost more and require more hardware. Comparing it years old CPU hardware doesn't even make sense. The whole original argument is off base.

I'd be highly surprised if re-encoding isn't going to give you a sharper movie than if you allow MadVR or whatever to do the scaling. If you're purpose building something, I don't think you're going to allow the TV to do the scaling. Kind of defeats the purpose.
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