DVspoof (formerly DVtools) v1.1 Released - Multifile support! - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 83 Old 06-04-2001, 06:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by GaryHDTV:
I'm curious... the HiPix records in one minute files of 143megs each. What is the length of a 268meg ADTV file?
Gary,
From my test the other day of hex editing the second file, ADTV bombed just over 2 minutes so I assume that these are 2 minute files.

I should move this discussion to a new thread as we are getting way off topic.

My intent was to consider using a DDS-3 drive for backing up ADTV recordings.
Since DDS-3 tapes are 12 GB native/24 GB compressed, I wanted to see how much compression I could expect.
This way I could see if I could fit a 2 hour movie (~18 GB) on a single 4mm tape.

Joe

EDIT: I moved my topic to another thread: http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/Forum12/HTML/011035.html



[This message has been edited by Joe Q (edited 06-04-2001).]
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post #62 of 83 Old 06-04-2001, 06:00 AM
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Gurus,
Please dont forget to email the dude for a free beta copy of MPEG2VCR to beta test for HDTV material. I realize this is OT. However, this tool can also help contribute to overall size reduction in HDTV files (editing out unwanted commercials or footage). Plus, you can crop video lengths perfectly to fit on a (let's say one sided DVD-Rams). All the author needs is to see that I'm not the only one on earth who wants to see MPEG2VCR work perfectly. This would make a perfect DVspoof companion! This is the only software that can offer this kind of flexibility for HDTV files.

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post #63 of 83 Old 06-04-2001, 06:08 AM
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The problem with the MPEG2VCR, right now, is while it can demultiplex the video correctly, it does not handle AC3 audio at all.

Hopefully, a future release will.
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post #64 of 83 Old 06-04-2001, 06:16 AM
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Something else to think about... capacity. Is the storage capacity of a DV tape (when using DVspoof) the size of all the encoded AVI files, or the amount of actual data stored in the AVI's. Since there is overhead involved in the AVI encoding, I submit that the actual storage capacity obtained should not include this overhead and should be based on actual stored data.
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post #65 of 83 Old 06-04-2001, 07:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Augustus2,

There is no end-user problem with the sound with DVspoof. The ATSC stream (including Dolby Digital sound) is stored and retreived. The issue you were reading about is just an internal detail about how the ATSC stream is stored on the tape.

Regarding D-VHS support, I think this would be an awesome idea. The main problem I see is that the spec for these DVHS machines is either extremely proprietary, or very difficult to liscence (unlike the DV interface spec which is relatively easy to figure out due to the wealth of existing PC tools)

If anyone was able to give me a head start (and a D-VHS machine for testing) I'd be happy to have a go at it. Ideally, for any solution like this it would be wise to try to use the same formatting as the standalone D-VHS deck uses.

chap,

the link for 1.3 is a little further into the thread. I should update the top message though.

GaryHDTV,

Of course you are right. Currently, the tool is storing approx. 100kbytes of useable info into every 120kbyte DV frame. So the efficiency is currently 83%, yielding effective capacities of 11GB, 13.75GB, and 16.6GB in SP mode for the 3 tape lengths (and 50% more in LP mode).

This also means the effective bandwidth is only 24mbits/sec instead of 28.8.

Andy K.
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post #66 of 83 Old 06-04-2001, 08:27 AM
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There is also the issue of the 30 repeated frames at the beginning of each file encoded, that uses additional tape space.

B.T.W... you can probably cut way back on the repeated first frame count as I haven't missed one yet... 4 or 5 might be enough to guarantee a good read.

Tip: If you get tired of paging through the long log files to check for decode errors, just do a string search for "lost bytes" or "lost frames!"

Andy Rules over DV!!
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post #67 of 83 Old 06-04-2001, 08:38 AM - Thread Starter
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The next version of the tools will have to enhancements relating to the repeated frame zeros:

1)I will also be including the option to repeat the last frame of an input file multiple times to guarantee its integrity (this is useful particularly when storing real .avi files like DivX)

2)The option to specify how many repeats you want, or if you just want to turn them off.

Andy K.
PS: Glad to see someone found my message in the bitstream, even though I had to chop 'Andy Rules Over DV!!' down to just 'Andy' in the new tools ... Had to make room for useless stuff like filelengths and such http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif
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post #68 of 83 Old 06-04-2001, 08:52 AM
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Andy, has anyone tried the WinTv-HD files with your system yet? Thanx.

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post #69 of 83 Old 06-04-2001, 10:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by GaryHDTV:
The problem with the MPEG2VCR, right now, is while it can demultiplex the video correctly, it does not handle AC3 audio at all.

Hopefully, a future release will.
The author already plans on support for this (ac3). However, ONLY reason Im asking you guys to email him is to to expedite and put a higher priority on FINISHING the audio and other functions specific to HDTV. If I'm not mistaken, there isn't a program that can edit and convert HDTV files...not even close. This program WILL do it all soon. He honestly doesn't think there are enough people who need these features, but is still working on it (fixing the problems on the backburner).

Do you guys have an HDTV file editing tool/file conversion and manipulation tool that I don't know about?


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post #70 of 83 Old 06-05-2001, 08:03 AM
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I just wanted to report success in transferring a bunch of .tif files with DVspoof and restoring them. They were convieniently sequential frames from an animation project. The storage wasn't too efficient though, each file was only ~12 frames long so the repeated lead-in frames more-than tripled the filesize.
We used a Sony TRV-6 Mini-DV camera and Premiere 6.

For people using Premiere:
If you put the encoded AVI's in the timeline and then put a few seconds of 'empty' space before and after it you can use the automated "export to tape" feature instead of "print to video". Also, this will ensure there is enough 'pre/post-roll' time to ease setting your in-out points for re-capturing. You will have to save the project file to do this.
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post #71 of 83 Old 06-09-2001, 11:35 AM
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Would be interested if it could be possible to directly backup DVD´s 1:1 on MiniDV or Digital8 camcorder with help of DVspoof?? I would be also interested when PAL camcorders will be supported. Thanks a lot in advance<FONT COLOR="Green">Text</FONT c>
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post #72 of 83 Old 06-10-2001, 12:23 AM
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re: DVD backup with DVSpoof

Yes, I was thinking about the same thing. My plan is to try saving .VOB files to D8, and then recovering them.

To simulate lost frames that might be lost because of D8, I would probably hex edit the VOBs (delete small sections of the VOB, change some bytes) and see if the VOBs can play thru the altered bytes in windvd/powerdvd.

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post #73 of 83 Old 06-10-2001, 01:22 AM
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Fluf:

I think your planned experiment to corrupt VOB files is interesting, but thanks to the information provided by pngai about DV error protection, I really don't think there's any issue about data loss.

In Future of DVSpoof pngai says
Quote:
DV designers claim that two whole tracks of the ten may be lost to dropouts and DV will still be able to construct the picture. DV cassette error correction is like RAID Level 5 redundancy in hard drives, in which one of the five drives can be disconnected and all the data is still available.
I even think I may have jumped the gun on discouraging our AccessDTV cousins from using these tools.

Do ADTV recordings have filename issues, though? Presumably a timestamp renaming tool wouldn't be hard to create if that is the case. A table of contents file, to allow for remapping after decoding the played-back AVIs, could become the 0000 file for them, with contents repeated as necessary to make it big enough to fill a few frames.

Heck, that's not a bad idea for HiPix recordings, either. It could become the oft-repeated sync frame instead of the minute-file's frame 0 that Andy now uses. Hey, Andy!

Oh, yeah, and there's a bug in the total size of files to convert reported at the start of the encode log file. I think the number is bigger than the data type allows.

-yogaman

[This message has been edited by yogaman (edited 06-10-2001).]
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post #74 of 83 Old 06-10-2001, 05:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by yogaman:

I even think I may have jumped the gun on discouraging our AccessDTV cousins from using these tools.

Do ADTV recordings have filename issues, though? Presumably a timestamp renaming tool wouldn't be hard to create if that is the case. -yogaman

B]
ADTV recordings DO have timestamp issues.
A few weeks ago, I was watching the directory as the files were getting created during a recording. Each file had a time stamp 2 minutes apart.
When I stopped the recording, all the time stamps were changed to the current time at which I stopped the recording.

Therefore, when you look at those cryptic file names, there is NO way to tell what the recording order of the files are.

I am thinking about writing a program which I can run while I am doing a recording which will grab the file names as soon as they are created. The resultant output file would then have the ADTV file names in time recorded order.

However, I have yet to see anyone verify that the ADTV files when written to and then retrievd from the camcorder have NO bit errors.
I do not own a camcorder so I can not test this. So I am waiting to see if someone comes forth.

As I have verified by using a hex editor, a scramble in ANY of the files makes accessDTV lock up on playback when it hits that file.
Also, there is one small file created which must have info about the recording. I hex edited that and POW - all 5 of my recordings on disk got deleted.

I still have much interest in this Dvtools project but I am also currently pursuing a few leads on a DDS-4 tape drive for about the price of a camcorder. This would have all the error correction as it is intended as a TRUE computer backup device.

BTW, there is one person reading this post who is probably smiling right about now because I sold him my Hipix after I bought the ADTV card. I have no regrets though since I really like the functionality of accessDTV MUCH better. It is a vastly superior product compared to the other 2 HD PC cards.

Perhaps we should all pitch in and buy Andy the ADTV card.

Joe



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post #75 of 83 Old 06-10-2001, 06:59 AM
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<FONT size="5">Text</FONT s><FONT face="Arial Black">Text</FONT f>Well what I would be interested is, if you coul use the Digital8 or MiniDV camcorder instead of D-VHS !! You could save lot of money. Imagine 1 film DVD has around 4-6 GB (?) on a Digital8 Tape (i.e. =Hi8) with 90 minutes it must be possible to get 30 GB at least, so you could get 6 film DVD´s on one tape which costs 5 USD !!! Not bad, isn´t it? Well unfortunately you would need a PC to play the films then, or could there be any possibility to make simple small black box, which converts AVI-format coming from Digital8 (MiniDV) camcorder to VOB and then directly to Video and DTS (or AC3) signal which you can put in to your Hifi Amplyfier and TV???
Well what about PAL? In Europe we really do need PAL !! Thanks for any hints http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif
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post #76 of 83 Old 06-10-2001, 08:29 AM - Thread Starter
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xandy,

You can back up anything you like with DVSpoof, including DVD .vobs. The only issue is whether or not the file can still be used on the slim chance that byte errors occur when reading back the files from the camcorder.

PAL support is planned, I definitely hear the requests pouring in!


yogaman,

I'm reserving comment for now on existing data correction. Maybe it *is* robust, but during my initial investigation when designing these tools, the conclusion was that this is not so.

Regarding the 0000 file, you read my mind http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif Although I havent decided exactly what to do, either this or insert this data on a per-file basis into the repeated frame 0. I think also the number of repeated frame 0's can drop to something like 6 with no loss of integrity. This means for 120 hipix minute files, for example, the total overhead is only 24 seconds instead 120 seconds.

Regarding the bug, please describe this better?

Thanks,

Andy K.
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post #77 of 83 Old 06-10-2001, 08:44 AM
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If you make it adjustable, I plan on using a frame 0 repeat of 3.
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post #78 of 83 Old 06-10-2001, 10:02 AM - Thread Starter
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You're right http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif

Looking at my code I'm using a (32-bit) int for total file size, when of course it will usually go over 2GB (the limit for a signed int). I'll change that to a double. It has no effect on actual processing, though.

... Unless someone wants to encode more than 18 Giga-Gigabytes? http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif

Andy K.


[This message has been edited by kromkamp (edited 06-10-2001).]
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post #79 of 83 Old 06-10-2001, 02:21 PM
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Andy:

You emailed me to clarify a question I raised. I wrote a response, then decided others might like to know about and comment on what I wrote. So here's your reply, and some other stuff:

&gt; When you say 'encode', Are you talking about DVenc or actually uploading it to tape?
&gt;

I have started consistently naming the steps of using the DVSpoof tools as:

1. Encode (DVEnc)
2. Record (to tape)
3. Capture or Play Back (from tape)
4. Decode (DVDec)
5. [no name yet] or Compare or Diff (DVDiff)

I've started naming the intermediate files and directories according to one or two letters followed by 'e' (encode), 'd' (decode), 'c' capture. For example, Gladiator.ts.#### files from the Gladiator directory get encoded into ge####.avi files in the ge dirctory. Scenalyzer puts them on tape, then captures them into the 'gc' directory as Scene####.avi. Then I decode those Scene####.avi files into the gd directory as gd.ts.####. (Scene####.avi is the default name that Scenalyzer creates.)

If it's necessary to redo parts of the capture or decode steps (only if my computer misbehaves or I screw up), I create a subdirectory named "2", and put the redo files in there. Then, in the re-decode case, I make sure I have the complete and correct minute files before I overwrite the files in the gd directory. In the re-capture case, I make sure there's some overlap at the start of the region I want to recapture. The new scene files again go into the 2 subdirectory, and I follow with the redecoding from there.

I'm not saying there isn't a better way to do it, but I've lost track a few times of which files are which, so I've tried to force myself to be more procedural. The to-be-written user manual might want to propose some standardized suggestions along this line. Perhaps others here have other ideas.

Taking one step back:

It's too bad that the DVSpoof tools still require a multi-step procedure, but it's definitely manageable as is. I do look forward to v3.0 when camcorder controls are built-in, and I can just push the "Record one hour" button, and the application will take off, recording the minute files (or wildcard-named directory structure!), and an hour later the tape will eject. Oooh, tingles.

And, of course, it'll be even cooler if Telemann decides to implement camcorder controls and spoofing directly within the HiPix application, and the minute files go directly onto tape. If the next minute file can't go to tape for whatever reason: EOT, tape not inserted, tape write protected, camcorder off, etc., subsequent minute files will be spooled automatically to disk. The HiPix application will just notice when the camcorder is ready, then pick up where it left off, DMAing from HiPix card to disk and simultaneously from disk to tape. (Well, ya gotta have a dream for it ever to come true, right?)

Oh, yeah, and regarding the (debugged) total size in the encoding log, it would be really cool to have that appear on stderr as well as stdout because it could serve as a reminder to check to make sure that there is enough room. I think you might already be planning something like this.

Have I told you lately how much I appreciate the DVSpoof tools you've created?

Regards,
-yogaman

[This message has been edited by yogaman (edited 06-10-2001).]
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post #80 of 83 Old 06-10-2001, 05:49 PM
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you mention v 3.0, does it mean v 2.0 is out or is 1.13 the latest ?
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post #81 of 83 Old 06-10-2001, 06:44 PM
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V2.0 isn't out yet, but Andy described the work he planned for future releases in the thread On the future of DVSpoof... . The latest release is 1.4beta, and there's a link in that thread to where you can get it.

Sorry I got your hopes up.

-yogaman
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post #82 of 83 Old 06-10-2001, 09:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Well, the way the code works now is it tries to detect 3 identical frame 0's in a row, before it 'locks' frame 0 in.

So if you only put 3 of them on the tape, if any of them gets corrupted it wont be able to detect 3 good frames in a row. 6 is the minimum to allow this.

I could do 'best 2 of 3' on 3 frames, that might work. My only concern is that if 2 frames are corrupted, you basically have to lose that whole HiPix file. (At least for now, DVdec could be improved in the future to handle files with missing beginnings)

Andy K.
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post #83 of 83 Old 06-10-2001, 09:20 PM
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OK, here's the first few lines of a Gladiator encoding log:

Quote:


Total size of files to convert: 1148114944
Total # of frames: 225295
Size of each .avi file: 2030160000
Total # of .avi files: 14


(Reading from new input file d:\\gladiator\\gladiator.ts.0000) 1406 frames
Writing to new output file f:\\ge\\ge0000.avi
0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 etc.
Note that the total size is less than the size of each .avi file.

I also had, but lost, an encoding log for Matrix, in which the total size was negative. I'm rerunning the encoding now, so in a few hours I can post that log header, too, if you'd like. (Matrix occupies 138 minute files vs. Gladiator's 157.)

Or maybe I'm misinterpreting what the Total size means?

Regards,
-yogaman

P.S. I could email you the complete logs, if you're interested.
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