Dream Came True - Joe Kane will evaluate my HTPC - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 37 Old 05-20-2004, 07:39 PM - Thread Starter
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One of the things I love the most about NYC is that anything can happen here. Even the most unbelievable things. One of them will take place tomorrow at 9:00 AM EST in Samsung's show room at NYC Home Entertainment Expo.

None other than Joe Kane agreed to evaluate my HTPC. He is at the show presenting Samsung's new 720p DLP front projector. He acctualy designed the projector and all can say is that it is the best 720p front projector I have seen to date. Might be the fact that he calibrated the projector himself, but I'd say it is more in design. Although people say all DLP projectors are the same, I'd say this is an exception. I am sure rave reviewes of this peace will follow in FP forum.

Anyway, we HTPC guys will get the opinion of a person that is a guru in that area. Suggestions are wellcome...

More to follow...

My HTPC setup is in my profile.

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post #2 of 37 Old 05-20-2004, 08:28 PM
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He acctualy designed the projector and all can say is that it is the best 720p front projector I have seen to date.
Is this projector priced over $3,500? I've rarely ever seen it discuseed in the over 3.5K forum. Maybe the show attendants will have reviews after the event.
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post #3 of 37 Old 05-20-2004, 08:31 PM
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I'll be there on Sunday....Vlad, will your HTPC be staying for the entire show?
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post #4 of 37 Old 05-20-2004, 08:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Projector's list price is a bit below 13K.

I am not sure if my HTPC will stay that long. Joe and Samsung want to show off 720p clips. Now, if DVDs through my HTPC can do better than that, it might happen.

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post #5 of 37 Old 05-20-2004, 08:57 PM
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Well, I'll be looking for you, your HTPC, and the new projector! :)
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post #6 of 37 Old 05-21-2004, 04:30 AM
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Do you know who will be there from Samsung? ...from the 65 page post over in the HDTV Hardware forum, can you ask them when or if they plan to fix their 360 High Def box? This thing is a real lemon!

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post #7 of 37 Old 05-21-2004, 06:52 AM
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Bravo Vlad,
are they going to calibrate the pj with your htpc as source?
If not try this (i hope you use powerstrip 3.49 or 3.5)

When the pj is on exit ps and then reopen it.

Go to color profiles and check the first 3 checkboxes to the left (wrire to palette dac,use edid chromaticity values and and don'remember the third).

Check the 2nd checkbox to the right.(Something about allow non linear ...).

To the dropdown list to the right select srgb 2.2 D65.

Then click the three colors button and adjust the gamma slider to about 1.15 to 1.2 (Since you use vmr9 you should see the changes to a paused video)

Then check each color and indidually set contrast,brightness (usually just contrast) to the have all three color lines to the upper right graph match starting from the low left corner to the upper right corner.

Finnaly adjust just contrast and brightness at the pj side using dve pluge and gray scale pattern.

I think the above procedure will give you very good gray scale tracking throught the IRE range.

I did that before having my benq 8700 calibrated with colorfacts and when later i was calibrated it saw that i already had a very good gray scale tracking and we (me and the guy who had clorfacts) had very hard time to achieve further improvements.

Hope you 'll find it usefull.
Have a nice time.
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post #8 of 37 Old 05-21-2004, 09:03 AM
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Hi vkon,
Does your procedure apply to other displays, or is it just for projectors??

Thanks. :)

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post #9 of 37 Old 05-21-2004, 01:21 PM - Thread Starter
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OK. Here is the first version of the impressions. I might update later when I have more time.

I have setup my AMD FX-51 overclocked to 225 mhz (2.47 Ghz CPU, 450 mhz dual chanel RAM at 2-2-5-2 timings, 900 mhz HT) with Nvidia Quadro FX 1100 video card, 56.72 drivers, XP Pro with SP1 and DX 9.0c, WM9, Forceware Multimedia 3.0 Beta, FFDShow 03292004 built, Avisynth 2.5.5. via DVI to new Samsung's (Joe Kane designed) 1 chip FP DLP 1280x720. Screen was about 96", I will go back and check for the type latter. Joe was sitting some 5-6 feet from 87 inch wide studiotek 130 to make sure he does not miss on any flaws.

HTPC synched with PJ upon first try and I have set up displays in "dualview" mode with digital being first and disabled full screen video. Otherwise settings were default. Video renderer was "Video Mixing Renderer" now suspected to be VMR7, but connected differently than when one connects VMR7 through choosing VMR7 support in Multimedia.

I will try to objectively summarize what Joe thought about the setup. Just for your information, Joe is very detail oriented person and true professional in this area. So there is no way to hide when he is evaluating. I will aslo summarize his overall impressions as conclusion. I appologize to Joe if my summary is not correct. After all, this is all for fun.

We fired up DVE (what else?) to calibrate PJ. During the show Joe uses WM9 720p encoded clips and drives PJ with Leadtek Nvidia FX 5900 card, so calibration ended up being absolutely perfect in default color settings. No need to calibrate at all.

We first used pure DXVA mode (no post processing through either Nvidia or FFDShow) Color decoding was superb. Right on the money. Grayscale was almost perfect with uniformity accross the range and clear above white and below black resolution. Deinterlacing was so-so. Resolution patterns were not so good. Last third was not being resolved properly. On color resolution pattern last thrid had chroma shift (i.e. uneven color bars). The worst thing was 3:2 pulldown. Moving plate pattern could not be reproduced properly. Motion pattern at the end of Chapter 16 was also not reproduced properly with deinterlacing issues (latter I tracked it down to deinterlacing set to "film" while it should have been "automatic"). Another problem that he noticed is ghosting on color check pattern that appears as edge enhancement. While this artifact is greatly reduced in overlay, overlay introduces its own issues with scaling, so I decided to go with Video Mixing Renderer knowing this will be an issue (I am trying to eliminate this, but no progress to report - this was discussed in Forceware 3.0 Chroma bug thread).

So Joe was not very impressed. Lots of issues.

Then we turned on post processing (unfortunately DVE in my setup does not work properly with Nvidia post-processing option, so only FFDShow was in play) with Avisynth Bicubic set to 960x540 (0.5, 0.6, a bit of sharpening) and FFDShow set to Lanczos 1920x1080, with Nvidia scaling down to 1280x720@60hz. Now we are talking. My poor HTPC started choaking in quite hot room, but things started looking better. Resolution patterns (both luma and chroma) were almost fully resolved withe uniform color. No visible scaling artifacts on any pattern. The only problems left were 3:2 pulldown that was simply not pulling down properly (as I understand, this is quite difficult test that very few scaler can pass), and ghosting on solid color patches .

I think Joe was mucy happier with what he saw here.

Finally, we added Nvidia post-processing in play to feed FFDshow 24 fps and enable smooth playback (on 29 fps and above scalling my FX-51 clearly chokes), and started to watch DVD from the start (with Nvidia post processing you can watch first title in full, and latter navigate through titles, but can't navigate through chapters where test patterns are). Joe noticed dropped frames, but very few people would. It was just too hot and FX-51 was overloaded. At normal room temperature of about 75 F things run smooth (and when you go back to Video Renderer's property page you actualy see that it drops 1 or 2 frames for duration of a movie). He also noticed some color processing artifacts that he clearly atributed to 8-bit processing (hello Nvidia, I thought we are at 128 bit floating-point precission processing, not 8-bit and I am sure Joe knows what he is talking about).

We briefly switched scaling patterns to Bicubic Avisynth 856x480 and FFDshow Lanczos 1280x720. Joe did not like it as much as 1080p scaling. There were some scaling bugs and image was not so "clean". After the show I tried 720p vs 1080p scaling on resolution patterns and it comfirmed that 720p has some minor issues with resolving last third of the pattern where one or two lines are not perfectly resolved and noticeable amount of chroma noise is introduced in the pattern (remember that except for the last one, these tests should have only luma i.e. black and white). At this point we had to finish as they had to prepare for the show.

Overall, Joe was "impressed with how far PCs have come" in video playback and liked the image much more with all the scaling galore (although he is video purist where less is more). He did not say that he wants to keep my HPTC though. His assistant did mention that this is the best performance he has ever seen from any HTPC. Just as a side note, Joe thinks that even Faroudja's best source/scaler combos have much to improve on, so I think this little (well, that's just the expression) HTPC engine did well. Cudos to Avisynth and FFDShow developers and of course Nvidia.

Vlad
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post #10 of 37 Old 05-21-2004, 02:04 PM
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So I'm guessing since you didn't mention it directly he'd still prefer a standalone scaler/vid processor.

Thanks for the write up. Crazy how an FX51 still chokes under FFDshow! I still have to find why you prefer to change to two different resolutions before sending it out to the PJ (960x540 --> 1920x1080).

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post #11 of 37 Old 05-21-2004, 03:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Actualy he does not use scaler/video processor. He goes directly from DVD player to projector. As I mentioned, he believes that less is more. With additional components you usually end up stacking up issues. You must understand that this was generally not "image quality test" as we would understand it, but pattern test where all the little flaws show up.

FFDShow upscaling has green and horizontal bug (for more see main FFDShow thread). Avisynth does not have it, but uses WAY more power, to the extent that you can't do 1920x1080 24 fps even with overclocked FX-51. FFDShow can upscale properly only in full multiples like 2x (some say 1.5, but in my experience that is not true). Avisynth can upscale to unclean multiples without any bugs. So you have to take best of both worlds. Bug free, CPU intensive Avisynth to 960x540 and then just double up in FFDShow to 1920x1080. With this upscaling Joe had no issues. I just edited my previous post to include little 720p test we did.

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post #12 of 37 Old 05-22-2004, 06:45 AM
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Congratulations, Vlad. Considering that most of us switched to HTPCs for their video post-processing capabilities, the fact that Mr. Kane was impressed by the performance of your set up in that particular department is really good news (oh, and the fact that the only major bug concerned 3:2 pulldown is kind of a relief for those of us who use PAL material all the time :D)

Just wondering, did you tour Joe through the different resize algorythms (Bicublin, Lanczos, Spline) to gather his view on which performed better?
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post #13 of 37 Old 05-22-2004, 07:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Orangelo,

I think the other major concern that Joe had was 8-bit video processing that causes video noise (i.e. processor is not capable of resolving all the information so it shows unresolved detail as noise).

When we did testing on 720p scaling I brefly switched to 1280x720 Spline (default was Lanczos) and Joe immediately said to go back. We did not have time to evaluate all combinations with test patterns, so this happened on first title and first chapter of DVE. Not sure what that meant, but I don't think he liked it. In 1080p scaling setup he did notice edge enhancement, but when I asked him if he wants me to go with completely neutral scaling (i.e. bicubic all the way, no sharpening) he said no. I think he was OK with this subtle edge enhancement, but would not like any more of it. In fact I decided to reduce sharpening in Avisynth Bicubic algorithm to 0.55 from 0.6 for my future viewing and I must say that I like it better this way.

Finally I will make the following edits to my post:

Joe was sitting some 5-6 feet from 96" screen to make sure he does not miss on any flaws.

Another problem that he noticed is ghosting on color check pattern that appears as edge enhancement. While this artifact is greatly reduced in overlay, overlay introduces its own issues with scaling, so I decided to go with Video Mixing Renderer knowing this will be an issue (I am trying to eliminate this, but no progress to report - this was discussed in Forceware 3.0 Chroma bug thread).

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post #14 of 37 Old 05-22-2004, 03:56 PM
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Overall, Joe was "impressed with how far PCs have come" in video playback and liked the image much more with all the scaling galore (although he is video purist where less is more). He did not say that he wants to keep my HPTC though.
So what equipment does Joe use to show off the new projector?
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post #15 of 37 Old 05-22-2004, 04:07 PM - Thread Starter
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He shows only WM9 clips encoded in 1280x720 either 24 fps, or 60 fps. For that purpose he has MCE PC P4 3.2 Ghz with Leadtek Nvidia FX 5900 video card connected via DVI to PJ. There is no scaling, just decoding and frame rate conversion for 24 fps.

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post #16 of 37 Old 05-22-2004, 04:26 PM
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Thanks for the very interesting report.
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post #17 of 37 Old 05-22-2004, 07:53 PM
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I think the other major concern that Joe had was 8-bit video processing that causes video noise (i.e. processor is not capable of resolving all the information so it shows unresolved detail as noise).
Is this in reference to the video card DACs? I think I read on this forum that the ATI cards have 10bit DACs. Is the 8bit video processing a NVIDIA card problem? I'm not sure if the comment is in reference to the FFDSHOW filters, but I can't image why they should be limited to 8bits.

Just curious.

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post #18 of 37 Old 05-23-2004, 12:56 AM
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Vlad,

With Joe's simplified, yet more CPU heavy HTPC setup, how did it compare to your computer with all the scaling software?

Did he have any tips for making WM HD look and perform the best on a HTPC? Did he think the new Windows Media operating system was better equipped than Windows XP Pro to take on the tasks we want home computers to perform?

Did he have any feeling for what WM HD might look like on an HD-DVD given higher disc capacities, bitrates and 1920x1080p resolution, or did you guys get into that?

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post #19 of 37 Old 05-23-2004, 10:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by MR
Is this in reference to the video card DACs? I think I read on this forum that the ATI cards have 10bit DACs. Is the 8bit video processing a NVIDIA card problem? I'm not sure if the comment is in reference to the FFDSHOW filters, but I can't image why they should be limited to 8bits.

Just curious.

-MR
Connection was DVI, so DAC are out of path. We did not have time to elaborate, but he thought somewhere in the video processing there is 8-bit path. The graph I had for this demo was a bit strange (don't know exactly how filters connected as in FM 3.0 you don't have complete control of the graph, just "preferences"), and it is possible that decoder connected through overlay to VMR7. Now in that case somehow the processing might have been dropped to 8-bit as I understand Nvidia still has 8-bit overlay. This graph was forced as it was the only path that could do 1080p software resize on my HTPC without tearing.

I did play a bit with VMR9 after his comments, and colors look different and better in VMR9. It does not look like 8-bit processing any more although we all know at the end of the day, it will be dropped to 8-bit depth per color due to limitations of DVI 1.0 specification. HDMI standard has ability to do 10 and 12 bit.). I have to play more with this issue to figure out what's really going on.

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post #20 of 37 Old 05-23-2004, 10:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dan Hitchman
Vlad,

With Joe's simplified, yet more CPU heavy HTPC setup, how did it compare to your computer with all the scaling software?

Did he have any tips for making WM HD look and perform the best on a HTPC? Did he think the new Windows Media operating system was better equipped than Windows XP Pro to take on the tasks we want home computers to perform?

Did he have any feeling for what WM HD might look like on an HD-DVD given higher disc capacities, bitrates and 1920x1080p resolution, or did you guys get into that?
Dan,

No offense to Joe's PC, but Dell's MCE P4 3.2 Ghz is likely 30% or so slower than my HTPC in terms of absolute bandwith and sheer power. For DVD playback there is no comparison. DVDs through MCE with any filter look mediocre. We did not compare WM9 playback as we did not have time. I don't see a reason why my HTPC would be better in playing 720p clips without scaling, just frame rate conversion, although I noticed that FM 3.0 potentially produces less artifacts (not verified, just possible). I did try (at home) to scale WM9 720p clips to 1080p in FFDShow/Avisynth using different algorithms and downscale to 720p using video card, but although color intensity increased, there were some minor scaling artifacts. I realy have no interest in WM9 at this point as it does not have practical application in my home theater.

We did not discuss XP MCE vs. XP Pro, but I have both and can tell you that there are no differences except for the MCE interface. WM9 720p looks wonderful even at low bit rates. WM9 1080p looks great, except for the scaling artifacts. It is really meant for 1080p displays where it would probably look out of this world (as we saw with Blue Ray with Sony Qualia). He did mention that certain clips that he gave to a major company for WM9 encoding looked a bit better than same clips given to another major company and encoded in MPEG-2 at 3 times the bit rate (8 vs. 24).

Vlad
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post #21 of 37 Old 05-23-2004, 07:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Update on 8-bit processing and some scaling issues.

Joe was right (obviously, otherwise he would not be Joe Kane, and I never
doubted his comments but used it as opportunity to fix all fixable issues). There was 8-bit path in the graph. It was masked by smooth scaling (3x) and produced excellent test pattern results, but in live video (in the areas of noise) it clearly showed. Also, color rendering was simpler, i.e. less shades and intensity of the same color were available. This is something that is not so easy to spot if you don't know what you are looking for. By increasing saturation (especially if you are testing in a room that is not completely dark) and smooth scaling, 8-bit is well masked. It was so well masked that Joe noticed it (or at least decided to comment) only on some of its DVE clips in the areas of noise. I will excuse myself also with the fact that all of my testing is on Samsung's HLN617W RP DLP display, which is a good piece with solid "punch", but by no means any kind of reference quality display (quite to the contrary in fact). It's internal colorspace is 14+ million colors as opposed to 16.7 million available in RGB24/32 colorspaces. Some people using low bandwith component inputs would probably not be able to tell the difference.

Anyway, VMR9 clearly takes my Quadro FX 1100 out of 8-bit path. Some of the things I thought to be scaling issues were in fact 8-bit video processing issues and VMR9 takes them away. Great example is Chapter 1 of LOTR RK when Tiegel (or whatever his name is) dives under the water in pursuit of a cought but untamed fish. When he spots the ring, background with 8-bit processing is full of chroma noise. With VMR9 that is gone (see below for scaling info on this test). Now the problem remains scaling. That is the same problem that led to this issue (i.e. trying to avoid VMR9 tearing for 1080p scaling that fixes scaling bugs). It turned out quite simple. When I was trying to use bug-free (for the most part) Avisynth scaling to 720p, I was getting zoomed in-image instead of the full image. The fix was embarrassingly simple. Enable resize in FFDShow to same 720p resolution (in that case FFDShow passes the signal unscaled). So now I can do one time 720p scaling using Lanczos4 Avisynth algorithm in VMR9 without any tearing issues. CPU usage is between 40-70%. 70% is the magic number for my HTPC. After 70% CPU utilization tearing is there (all this is for small video window, so add another 10-15% of CPU load for fullscreen video).

The perfect torture test for VRM9 tearing is Chapter 25 of Seabiscuit. If you live through that with only one or two tears on the fastest moving scenes (they should be difficult to spot, or otherwise you have a tearing problem) you are in VMR9 business. This scene has put Faroudja scaler to its knees during NY show. I DID see it tear at least once. Moderate tearing test are Chapters 39-41 of LORT RK. Tearing is more severe on 16x9 material, but I did not play with that yet. Let me know if you know very fast moving scenes (i.e. lots of pixels changing literally from frame to frame) in 16x9. My current 16x9 tearing test clip is from "Under the Toscan Sun" (OK, my wife also buys a DVD or two every now and then), the scene from flag throwing festivities. Also a good color testing scene.

Now, with 720p scaling DVE horizontal resolution test patterns are close to pristine, but in vertical resolution test patterns there is some chroma noise that is not present in 1080p triple scaling path. Also color check pattern shows more visible edge enhancemet, ghosting, or "double lines" (how ever you want to call it) with 720p scalling. 1080p clearly test better by a nice margin. 720p also exhibits slight (but visible if you know what to look for) horizontal lines in difficult material (e.g. underwater scene from chapter 1 of LORT RK). 738p Lanczos4 scaling (just to put it a bit over 720p, so I can use the card to downscale to 720p and filter/clean up the image a bit) test a bit better, but still not as good as 1080p. For viewing pleasure, I am sure most people will find one-step 720p Lanczos4 scaling more enjoyable. Although technicaly less correct, it is crispier and a bit more vivid, while it still remains quite softer than regular Lanczos. To me 738p and Nvidia downscaling looks better.

Having to compromise between 8-bit color processing and perfect scaling, or higher order (hopefully 128-bit floating point precission in VMR9) color processing and less perfect scaling, I will go with the latter. So it is VMR9 and 738p Lanczos4 scaling until next major hardware overhaul (too bad AMD just decided to delay FX-55 2.66 Mhz until Q3).

So at the end of the day HTPC remains with its traditionally weeks points of bad 3:2 pulldown, de-interlacing issues, and additional problem in VMR9 where colors appear as if they have some edge enhancement.

Vlad
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post #22 of 37 Old 05-24-2004, 12:08 AM
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Vlad, I finally had the opportunity to try out NVDVD3 and everytime I enable video post-processing of any kind (NVVPP, FFDShow or both) the image just blows up... It is like looking to a 16-bit video card even with the "prefer VMR9" box ticked... fine color gradations are just gone and chunky color steps come in. It looks like posterization or compression artifacts. However, this is only obvious with smooth color gradations, like a sunset or light reflecting on water, otherwise it will not be easily spot.

This issue does not show up with pure DVD decoding, but there is no point for me in evaluating new software without FFDShow scaling. I assume that there is something wrong in my setup, because in the right scene, the result is simply grotesque. Anyway, why don't you compare WinDVD or Elecard with NVDVD3 in terms of that video noise you mention. I believe that part of the problem may be in NVDVD with VPP enabled...
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post #23 of 37 Old 05-24-2004, 12:23 AM
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I think it will work with any digital display with dvi connection.
Vlad
I also had this zoomed effect with avisynth but it was corrected by using soursce in zp AR.

Since there are know issues with DVE 's explanation in patterns can you tell us which patterns you used (Title,Chapter) and what should we look for.
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post #24 of 37 Old 05-24-2004, 09:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by Orangelo
Vlad, I finally had the opportunity to try out NVDVD3 and everytime I enable video post-processing of any kind (NVVPP, FFDShow or both) the image just blows up... It is like looking to a 16-bit video card even with the "prefer VMR9" box ticked... fine color gradations are just gone and chunky color steps come in. It looks like posterization or compression artifacts. However, this is only obvious with smooth color gradations, like a sunset or light reflecting on water, otherwise it will not be easily spot.

This issue does not show up with pure DVD decoding, but there is no point for me in evaluating new software without FFDShow scaling. I assume that there is something wrong in my setup, because in the right scene, the result is simply grotesque. Anyway, why don't you compare WinDVD or Elecard with NVDVD3 in terms of that video noise you mention. I believe that part of the problem may be in NVDVD with VPP enabled...
I am not sure what is happening with your FM 3.0 Beta. I have never seen the problem you describe. Also not sure what was the source of your download. It might be corrupt.

I can definitely get smooth colors in VMR9 (ATI people that like overlay should be able to get it on ATI's 10 bit overlay) on tranditionaly difficult objects to render (e.g. Dreamworks blue clip with a bit of sunset colors on the clouds at the end). I don't have Elecard or WinDVD (really don't want to go through the hassle or re-activating), but I can't see that Sonic does any of it better in ZP FFDShow setup, except that it hogs my CPU. I hope they release the final version of FM 3.0 soon (somebody said mid June). I am sure it will be frendlier to a wider variety of hardware and drivers.

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post #25 of 37 Old 05-24-2004, 10:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by vkon
Since there are know issues with DVE 's explanation in patterns can you tell us which patterns you used (Title,Chapter) and what should we look for.
Not sure about the title/chapter number, but I know the names.

First you should go through 1.78 display setup patterns. Brightness, color (I think that is ch 7) pattern that you use filter on, then grayscale tracking (ch 14 I think). Picture resolution chapter is fairly easy. All the patterns but the last one are luma only, so if you see any chroma that is bad. Lines should be rendered smoothly without any moire between them accross the screen. The last one is chroma/luma pattern and you should see the same colors rendered throughout the pattern. Different shades of colors mean you have a problem. Also, as you go towards the thicker lines (right part of the screen) edges should be solid. ATI cards never got that part right. For moving patterns Snell and Wilcox ch 1 should give you perfect circle as it bounces without moire or smaller circles in it. Very few devices, Faroudja included can resolve this. None of the software players can do this. This is a pulldown issue. Deinterlacing issues show best as "combing" and are generally associated with software player that rely of flags to deinterlace. It happens even in the best DVDs like LORT FOTR EE (e.g. a scene when Aragorn talks to hobits about the Nazgul in a room in the Inn at the Prouncing Pony in Bree). For some foreing production movies you simply have to switch processing to "Film" or otherwise you have every frame combed. Another good example is Ran (The Masterworks Edition, how masterful have they crafted this $35 DVD). Combing all over the place in one of best Kurosawa's movies, i(otherwise a very good transfer).

When Joe decided to mention 8-bit processing noise was on the last chapter of title one of DVD when the space ship is shown in the center of the screen (relaltively small) surrounded by light blue sky. There is a lots of noise in the sky, but 8-bit will show more chroma noise than 10-bit or higher order processing. Kind of difficult to catch if you don't have the reference point. This issue is easier to spot in some other material. For example LOTR RK in the very beginning of the movie the camera focuses out from Smigels's face. In 8-bit processing you will see blocking during this transition. I already mentioned underwater scene in that chapter. Chroma noise should be minimal or at least not shown as strong red, green or yellow (very small blocks, sometimes only couple of pixels). There is another scene (probably ch 7) with close shot of Arwen's face. In 8-bit blocking around her nose will be visible, gone with higher order processing in VMR9. Again, all of my comments are based on my hardware and software setup, and some people might have different experiences in their setup. 720p DVI fed display and 61" of it is a lot, so people with smaller and less sharp displays or other connections might not see this issue. I know that FP guys with larger screens will see this blown up and probably could spot more issues than I can in my setup.

Hope it helps.

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post #26 of 37 Old 05-25-2004, 12:21 AM
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Thanks a lot Vlad .
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post #27 of 37 Old 05-26-2004, 12:35 AM
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I tried last night the patterns you mentioned.
In chroma/luma pattern i got uniform colors but the thicker lines are not sharp .They are a little blured.
In snell and wilcox i have perfect circle when the ball hits the line but the inner circles appear when the ball moves towards the next line
Are these "bad " signs?
Do you have any sugestions?

What do you mean by "you simply have to switch processing to "Film" "?
How do i switch?

By the way when i first tried chroma/luma pattern i got awfull result.
One thing that i did whas following the instructions for changing the YUY2 codec from http://www.avisynth.org/index.php?page=Convert and changed the codec to huffyuy.
After some tries i got musch better results.
I didn't try to go back to the old codec (msyuy) to be sure that codec's change made the diference but i think so.
Maybe someone find this interesting.

Anyway Vlad thanks for your time.
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post #28 of 37 Old 05-26-2004, 10:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Vkon,

Blured or soft lines are OK, but you should still have well defined edges. If you can notice structure of the edges, video card is not rendering it properly.

Little circles in the bouncing circle signify problems with 3:2 pulldown. I doubt that we will see further improvements in that area. It is eigher decoder issue (if it outputs close to 30 fps) or video card driver issue (if it outputs 24 fps). Theoretically you could write a perfect code for 24 to 30 rate conversion, but that is what many have tried and failed. Current players and video card drivers do a very good job (IMO) for 3:2 pulldown. It is not perfect, but very few things are. Motion on properly set up HTPC is at the point where an average consumer would not be able to tell the difference between HTPC and standalone players if somebody would not tell them exactly what to look for.

Switching to "film" mode means to switch deinterlacing mode for your decoder. Usually you have it in "auto" mode and you can switch it to film (24 fps) or video (30 fps). What decoder are you using?

As far as post-processing in FFDShow, YV12 should generally be the fastest colorspace for FFDShow (although some users reported they process faster with other colorspaces). Did you try converting to YV12 and outputing YV12 out of FFDShow. This will have an extra 4:2:0 to 4:2:2 colorspace conversion, but it will be done in hardware. Results will depend on now good of a match is Avisynth's colorspace conversion algorithm with decoder's algorithm. Nvidia Forceware takes care of the issue as with Nvidia post processing option, they output YV12 24 fps to FFDShow using optimized conversion algorithm (hopefully in corelation with the algorithm used to unpack chroma to 4:2:2 from 4:2:0 format, so no chroma info is lost or distorted).

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Vlad,
I'm using elecard's decoder which outputs YUY2 to ffdshow.
I tried YV12 with good results but
i thought outputing YUY2 to ATI would save me one conversion (less is better ?).
I also tried converting to rgb32 i case ati doesn't do a very good colorspace converion.
I can't say which i prefer but i 'll have to test more.
Doesn't the difference between yv12 12bit YUY2 16 bit rgb32 32 bit mean anything significant?

As for deinterlacing in elecard i have it to weave(no deinterlacing) and i use in ffdshow ffmpeg or 5-tap lowpass.
Maybe i'll have to search aggain ffdshow faq to see which deinterlacers are film and which are video.

I'm using mostly pal disks and i noticed a strange thing with avisynth's scaling.
When i scale with lanczos4 reclock reports NTSC disk with 23.97 fps.
If i use ffdshow's lanczos it's PAL disk 25 fps.

Any opinions ?
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post #30 of 37 Old 05-27-2004, 08:07 AM - Thread Starter
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YUY2 will save you color space conversion, but might slow down FFDShow processing. I get about 30% haircut on my resize options when using YUY2. YV12 is faster because chroma information is compressed i.e. it uses less bits to carry the video signal. Bad thing about YV12 is another colorspace conversion, but good news is it is done in hardware, so no bugs. Whether it pays off really depends how much of chroma resolution is lost on that conversion. This is very system specific, so only you can make the call. I did use RGB32 output (not processing) colorspace out of FFDShow for a while on ATI cards, but with Nvidia I am better off using hardware conversion.

Weave should be OK, not sure about FFDShow options as I never used them.

Lanczos4 shifting to NTSC and doing frame rate conversion? That's interesting. Realy don't know what to say about it as I don't have any PAL discs.

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