Does anyone have true 1080i resolutions working through DVI? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 64 Old 07-07-2004, 01:56 PM - Thread Starter
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I've read of many people having trouble setting up 1080i through DVI, some stepping down to 540p etc...

Does anyone have 1080i working through a DVI port? What video card and OS?

Thanks
Mike
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post #2 of 64 Old 07-07-2004, 05:58 PM
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I recall a discussion that mentioned the DVI spec didn't support interlaced resolutions, whilst HDMI does. Can't find the reference now though...
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post #3 of 64 Old 07-07-2004, 06:02 PM
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I have Quadro FX 1100 with 61.12 drivers and can send 1080i signal through DVI to my Samsung HLN617W RP DLP TV. It is obvioulsy not an optimal solution for 1280x720p display, and the image is of lesser quality than sending 720p signal, but it does work.

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post #4 of 64 Old 07-07-2004, 07:42 PM
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I haven't heard of too "many" having this problem - in fact quite the opposite, if your TV supports 1080i it should be fairly easy to do. I have both the Radeon 9600 Pro and Nvidia FX5900XT and they can do 1080i without a problem over DVI to my 50" Sony Grand Wega III. (both with and without Powerstrip) Now if you are refering to doing 1080i with a specific application that may be a different story.

Let us know a little more about your setup and what issues you are having...
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post #5 of 64 Old 07-07-2004, 07:56 PM
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true 1080i, which I consider 1920x1080, is IMO not acheivable in a lot of video cards through the DVI output, because everything I have read states that most DVI's are only capable of up to 1600x1200. From what I have read on the technical side, not the HTPC side, is that DVI-I or single link? or whatever it is, is not capable of that resolution. It must be dual-link DVI type, and very few cards are using that design.

I'm not sure I have things 100% correct here, but that is my understanding of the hardware side of things.
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post #6 of 64 Old 07-07-2004, 08:07 PM
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Quote:
true 1080i, which I consider 1920x1080, is IMO not acheivable in a lot of video cards through the DVI output, because everything I have read states that most DVI's are only capable of up to 1600x1200.
Hmmm, I thought the Radeon 9600 Pro and Nvidia 5900TX both support thru 2048x1536, so 1920x1080 is not a problem. (I have run 1920x1080 via DVI with these cards, or at least I thought I did) Perhaps it is the monitors that are not supporting the higher resolutions??
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post #7 of 64 Old 07-07-2004, 08:13 PM
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ATI cards send out 540P instead of 1080i, even though it says its sending out 1080i.


Nvidia cards send out 1080i, but their DVI implementation is inferior to ATI's. This is based on a test some guy did measuring how well video cards complied to the DVI standard, though I can't find the link.
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post #8 of 64 Old 07-07-2004, 08:31 PM
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hmm...i'm outputting 1080i via dvi on my 9800pro to my sony RPTV. It's definitely interlaced, and it looks as high res as 1080i via transcoded component connection. The only weird thing is that I have to manually select 1920x1080i by getting to the 'list all modes' in the video display properties every time i want to use it. If I just use powerstrip to switch, it won't work at all.
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post #9 of 64 Old 07-07-2004, 08:52 PM
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im not really sure how i got mine working,but ill try to explane it,lol,

9800 pro
xp pro with service pack 1
cat 4.6 drivers
panasonic PT-WXC43G from walmart
47in supports 480p and 1080i

after i had the dongle all setup running at 1776x1000 using 1080i timings,all my games play at that resolution,also have the desktop at that to, all at 30 hz refresh rate,
now

when i changed over to just the DVI duel link cable, my desk top was at 720x480 or something close, i went into display properties, adavance tab, list all modes and selected 1776x1000@30hz,clicked apply and got a black screen,the computer rebooted about 8 seconds later,when it came back up it was at the 1776x1000 @60hz ,werd, so then i started up powerstrip and it said my res was at 1776x1000@30hz, so i dont know, i do know i have 2 games working at that res and look fine, i also went into device manager and had to reload my custom monitor ini

dice
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post #10 of 64 Old 07-07-2004, 08:53 PM
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Quote:
ATI cards send out 540P instead of 1080i, even though it says its sending out 1080i.
Well my TV interprets it as 1080i via the service menu so I guess it's up-converting the signal? Looks the same to me with either card on my set, (maybe a tad cleaner with the Nvidia) both are shown as 1080i in the display properties and the TV service menu...

I hope you can find the link as I would be curious as to what cards and drivers were tested.

Edit: Was THIS it??
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post #11 of 64 Old 07-07-2004, 10:40 PM
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Just a clarification. My Quadro does 1920x1080i directly from driver custom resolution timings menu (that looks just like Powerstrips with all the back and front porch etc. adjustments), so it is no sweat solution. It even has 1080p 24fps setting (I just need 30K Sony Qualia PJ to use it).

As far as DVIs, most DVI sngle link transmitters will go only up to 1600x1200 and 1920x1080p is not officially supported resolution. As far as bandwith, good DVI single link transmiter (compliant with specs in DVI shootout test) should be able to handle 1920x1080 as it has essentialy the same bandwith as 1600x1200 (both at 60hz). Quadro FX 1100 has 1920x1080p@60Hz as custom resolution, but I am not sure if it supports it through DVI or only through RGB (RGB goes up to 3600x2400@60hz).

Vlad
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post #12 of 64 Old 07-08-2004, 08:06 AM - Thread Starter
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As far as DVIs, most DVI sngle link transmitters will go only up to 1600x1200 and 1920x1080p is not officially supported resolution. As far as bandwith, good DVI single link transmiter (compliant with specs in DVI shootout test) should be able to handle 1920x1080 as it has essentialy the same bandwith as 1600x1200 (both at 60hz). Quadro FX 1100 has 1920x1080p@60Hz as custom resolution, but I am not sure if it supports it through DVI or only through RGB (RGB goes up to 3600x2400@60hz).
Does this mean I can use a GeForce 5200 that quotes it's max res on DVI at 1600x1200 for 1080i? Has anyone done this?

Mike
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post #13 of 64 Old 07-08-2004, 01:09 PM
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From a pure bandwidth standpoint, 1080i/60 or 1080p/30 should work because it's less bandwidth than 1600x1200p/60. 1080i/60 is 62.6 megapixels/sec while 1600x1200p/60 is 115.2Mpix/sec.

- Mike
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post #14 of 64 Old 07-08-2004, 02:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by CCarncross
true 1080i, which I consider 1920x1080, is IMO not acheivable in a lot of video cards through the DVI output, because everything I have read states that most DVI's are only capable of up to 1600x1200. From what I have read on the technical side, not the HTPC side, is that DVI-I or single link? or whatever it is, is not capable of that resolution. It must be dual-link DVI type, and very few cards are using that design.

I'm not sure I have things 100% correct here, but that is my understanding of the hardware side of things.
I thought ATI's DVI ports were dual link. You can plug a dual link cable into an ATI DVI port. If they aren't dual link, then they must not be sending data over the extra pins.

Also, the 1600x1200 spec is for progressive. 1920x1080i requires less bandwidth than 1600x1200p.

Quote:
Originally posted by ps24eva

ATI cards send out 540P instead of 1080i, even though it says its sending out 1080i.
Are you sure about that? Where did you hear that?

At least 2 other people and myself have suffered from severe vertical jitter when trying to display any interlaced resolutions over DVI from ATI cards. We were all able to resolve the problem by switching to the component dongle. See these threads:

Higher resolutions with DVI
540p and 1080i differences -- need help

Sean.
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post #15 of 64 Old 07-08-2004, 03:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Datalux
Well my TV interprets it as 1080i via the service menu so I guess it's up-converting the signal?
Datalux,

NO - the timings of a 540p are identical to 1080i.

[ See Sean's link above about the differences between 540p and 1080i. ]

Your TV is not upconverting - it just "thinks" the 540p is 1080i.

Dr. Gregory Greenman
Physicist
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post #16 of 64 Old 07-08-2004, 09:52 PM
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With exception of new ATI FireGL PCI express top of the line, none of ATI cards are dual link.

Nvidia has 6800 Mac edition (not sure if it work in XP as well) that is dual link, so are Quadro FX 2000 and above that are Win XP cards.

Vlad
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post #17 of 64 Old 07-08-2004, 09:59 PM
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People, its a well-known fact that ATI cards send out 540P instead of 1080I (or half the resolution of ANY interlaced resolution for that matter) even though it says its sending out 1080i.


But the display device is ALSO fooled into thinking its receiving 1080I (even though it isn't) because 540P uses the same timings and the fact that 1080i is two 540P fields interlaced together
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post #18 of 64 Old 07-08-2004, 10:49 PM
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ps24eva,does this mean that when i output 1080i threw DVI its 540p ? i thought i had 1080i working,lol, ati control panel says it is and powerstrip also,just wondering

dice
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post #19 of 64 Old 07-08-2004, 11:32 PM
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you are getting 540P
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post #20 of 64 Old 07-09-2004, 06:11 AM
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ps24eva, what about component? Is it 540P too? Thx.

EDID Overrides (capture, install/uninstall, troubleshooting)
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post #21 of 64 Old 07-09-2004, 07:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by ps24eva
People, its a well-known fact that ATI cards send out 540P instead of 1080I (or half the resolution of ANY interlaced resolution for that matter) even though it says its sending out 1080i.
This is only true using overlay mode. VMR displays both fields.
Gary

p.s. I use a 22" Samsung LT-P227W and can't get 1080i to work over DVI. The ATI drivers don't allow it.
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post #22 of 64 Old 07-09-2004, 07:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tulli
ps24eva, what about component? Is it 540P too? Thx.


yes
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post #23 of 64 Old 07-09-2004, 08:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by ps24eva
yes

I cant say with full confidence (yet) that 1080i via the dongle, on an ATI card is full 1080i (waiting on some hardware), but I can tell you for a fact that it's DVI is INFERIOR to the dongle converter, with the current drivers.

I just had a big comparison happen between DVI and the dongle/component cable, on a 9800 pro, cat 4.6.

I compared HD (1080i) .TS streams (~15mb/s) and their DVD counter parts.

The dongle won every time (i used about 5-6 difference sources).

This does not say that the dongle is working perfectly, but it is saying that it is working far better than the DVI. Once my hardware comes in, ill be running some more 1000i and 1080i tests to see what kind of resolution is being sent.
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post #24 of 64 Old 07-09-2004, 09:12 AM
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ps24eva,

are you referring to the half resolution problem? From everything I've read, that's only true if no vertical scaling is involved. So yes, if you are trying to display a 1080i source in a 1920x1080i resolution, you will only get half resolution. However, the card is still sending an interlaced image, right? It's not 540p, right?

If you play a non 1080i source (e.g. DVD) or scale the output to anything other than 1080i, you get full resolution. Anyway, I don't think many people use 1920x1080i to avoid overscan. I use 1808x1016i. The PQ is much better for any source than 540p. Also, I can't see any difference in PQ when using VMR or overlay.

Sean.
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post #25 of 64 Old 07-09-2004, 10:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by KingKong954
I cant say with full confidence (yet) that 1080i via the dongle, on an ATI card is full 1080i (waiting on some hardware), but I can tell you for a fact that it's DVI is INFERIOR to the dongle converter, with the current drivers.

I just had a big comparison happen between DVI and the dongle/component cable, on a 9800 pro, cat 4.6.

I compared HD (1080i) .TS streams (~15mb/s) and their DVD counter parts.

The dongle won every time (i used about 5-6 difference sources).

This does not say that the dongle is working perfectly, but it is saying that it is working far better than the DVI. Once my hardware comes in, ill be running some more 1000i and 1080i tests to see what kind of resolution is being sent.

this is a separate issue...

and could just be your TV...


your tv may just have a better component implementation or a crappy DVI implementation.


I would like others' feedback on this though
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post #26 of 64 Old 07-09-2004, 10:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by boiler11
ps24eva,

are you referring to the half resolution problem? From everything I've read, that's only true if no vertical scaling is involved. So yes, if you are trying to display a 1080i source in a 1920x1080i resolution, you will only get half resolution. However, the card is still sending an interlaced image, right? It's not 540p, right?

If you play a non 1080i source (e.g. DVD) or scale the output to anything other than 1080i, you get full resolution. Anyway, I don't think many people use 1920x1080i to avoid overscan. I use 1808x1016i. The PQ is much better for any source than 540p. Also, I can't see any difference in PQ when using VMR or overlay.

Sean.

boiler11,

yes this is the infamous "half-res" problem, not to be confused with the cut in half overlay problem.


Even if you use 1808x1016i, you are not really getting that either. You are getting half that i.e. one field.

you are watching a progressive signal:(
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post #27 of 64 Old 07-09-2004, 11:20 AM
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ps24eva,

I'm not saying you can't convince me, but can you point me at something that documents that you are only getting 540p?

From this thread:

Woo Hoo!!! I have properly working interlaced overlay with Catalyst 3.10!

Quote:
Originally posted by Karnis
If your desktop rez is 1920x1080i and you playback the above posted 1920x1080i AVI, it's blended. If you play it back at 1776x1000i, you can see the interlace flicker.
The same applies if you playback the 1776x1000i at 1000i, it's blended. At 1080i, it flickers.
Since DVD is 480p native, scaling it to hi rez interlaced seems to be ok.

Scaling to interlaced seems ok, displaying native rez interlaced material via the overlay is the issue.

Therefore, 1920x1080i source files played back via the overlay will effectively have the vertical resolution reduced by half (as well as native 480i NTSC I would imagine).
Quote:
Originally posted by jimwhite
I think you'll find that the flicker you get when scaling to a different rez than the desktop is NOT an indication of correct interlaced/rez output but rather, the flicker is an artifact of the scaling.....
jimwhite seems to be implying something along the lines of what you are claiming, but it doesn't say that literally.

Now, I haven't personally played the sample clips that Helzer made, but I might have some time to play this weekend.

ps24eva, are you saying that ATI video cards cannot output interlaced resolutions at all, of just with overlay?

Quote:
Originally posted by ps24eva
this is a separate issue...
and could just be your TV...
your tv may just have a better component implementation or a crappy DVI implementation.
I would like others' feedback on this though
I don't think so. If you read this thread:

Higher resolutions with DVI

bjquinn had no problems with the same TV and DVI cable but using a STB DVD player with DVI output. I personally don't have any other DVI output devices, but I'll report back on that when I get my HD-TIVO :D

Thanks,
Sean.
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post #28 of 64 Old 07-09-2004, 11:23 AM
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Just to be clear I have a ati 8500 outputting via DVI 1776x999i...

Would 1200x675p be better over dvi? I seem to think that I see some more detail (mostly macroblocks) with the 999i setting but it could just be me!

* I know these resolutions are kinda funny, they were the only ones I could get to work with my Toshiba 34" WS direct view...
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post #29 of 64 Old 07-09-2004, 11:26 AM
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I agree, please post some proof of this problem instead of just stating that it exists. Anyone could say anything on these boards without proof, Hey there is Jimmy Hoffa! Hey I just saw Elvis yesterday playing golf! Catch my drift, some proof would be nice here.
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post #30 of 64 Old 07-09-2004, 12:41 PM
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Why is this hard to prove? Just put up a bitmap on the desktop with alternating horizontal black and white lines of 1 pixel height. If you can see see the individual lines, then you have all the interlaced lines. If it becomes solid with either black or white then you got one field repeated. Am I way off base here?

- Mike
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