Need help, please, with HTPC resolution on a 4:3 HDTV - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 23 Old 09-08-2004, 01:28 PM - Thread Starter
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My head is spinning as to how to overcome my HTPC display issue. Here are my system/HW specs for background info:

- Sanyo 32" 4:3 HDTV w/HDMI input
- HTPC with Mad Dog FX5200 card w/DVI out
- Windows XP SP1a
- Forceware 66.00 beta drivers
- Meedio front-end

My problem is that with the latest Forceware 66.00 beta drivers, I cannot get a fullscreen output onto my HDTV (connected via a DVI-HDMI cable) without letterboxing or a vertically stretched display. I have a button on my HDTV remote that change the display to letterbox, zoom, or normal display. If I view a DVD on via ZP or WinDVD or Meedio & set the HDTV display to letterbox, everything looks fine. However, once I'm done watching that DVD return to Meedio, or even if I'm just using any Windows app, the display is letterboxed so I lose out on the top & bottom of my screen - not desirable!

If I return to normal mode on my HDTV, everything looks stretched vertically so that everything looks skinny, but I do get a fullscreen, barely overscanned output. Zoom is not desirable at all since it produces way too much overscan.

I'm shooting for a 720p resolution (1080i would be nice, but how to achieve this without flickering?), but what does that translate into for a 4:3 HDTV set? It can't be 1280x720 as it is now. I tried entering a bunch of custom resolutions via the NVIDIA control panel but I get too much overscan every time. If I go back to the official NVIDIA 61.77 driver set, I get too much overscan out of the box. The only way for me to get rid of the overscan is to use Keystone, but that's too taxing on my HTPC as it causes slight display "lurching" when playing back movies.

Is Powerstrip my only remaining option? Please say it ain't so as I have been avoiding it like the plague. Can Powerstrip even output a 4:3 HDTV display?

Many thanks,
jawgee
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post #2 of 23 Old 09-09-2004, 07:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Just a bump for a resolution-impaired soul :)...any help would be appreciated.

Thanks,
jawgee
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post #3 of 23 Old 09-09-2004, 09:27 AM
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Well,

I can't really help - but at least I've now found someone who has the same problem as I do... I'm also using an NVIDIA 5200 card, and am pretty happy with it. The DVI - HDMI cable worked pretty well, without any necessary tweaking. I use my HDTV primarliy to watch movies that are being played on my PC.

I too can only get excellent picture quality on my HDTV when I'm playing full screen video. And with that I still get some letterboxing, though not too much. I can't figure out why this is. Otherwise (when not playing full screen video) I get a rapidly flickering screen that looks like my desktop, but without any of the icons on it. I have messed around with a couple of different resolutions, and I think that 1080i is the best for picture quality on the HDTV - but, of course, I'm not sure, since I can only get full screen movies - not my regular desktop.

I was wondering if it would be effected by the refresh rate - but for some reason my dispay setting for the 'digital monitor' (which is what the NVIDIA display properties calls the HDTV) will only allow a refresh rate of 60hz. Any idea how I might alter that parameter?



PS - What is keystone?
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post #4 of 23 Old 09-09-2004, 11:06 AM - Thread Starter
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It sounds like you are able to view overlay even though your HTPC's resolution is wacked. I never bothered trying that; I would get an unusable desktop display while trying to dial in a 1080i res, but never tried to play a video while in the wacked out res. Come to think of it, how could I as I wouldn't be able to start the movie (unless by remote) because nothing is legible on the screen. Not an option for me as I want to view my front-end software in addition to viewing video. Anyway, I'm rambling...

Have you tried dialing in a resolution other than 1080i? How about 720p? That's what I'm using, though I would like to try 1080i since the HD signals that I've been getting through my cable look a bit sharper on my HDTV than 720p signals.

In regards to refresh rates, I haven't played around with that parameter yet. I believe you can adjust that in your generic Display Control Panel.

Keystone is an app that comes bundled with the latest NVIDIA drivers. I believe if you right-click on your desktop you'll see an option for NKeystone. Its main purpose is to adjust for slants & other screen shape imperfections when using a projector. Of course, you can use it when displaying to any kind of display & though it's easy to use & adjust, it's very taxing on your CPU since it has to perform screen resizing calculations on the fly. This results in "lurching" or intermittent delays in video playback on my 2.2GHz 512MB Celeron HTPC.

You didn't specifically mention this, but are you using a 4:3 HDTV? I'm thinking that a standard computer resolution (like 800x600) is going to have to be used for 4:3 HDTVs with some tweaking done by Powerstrip to get rid of overscan, but I don't know how a computer resolution like 800x600 translates to standard HD resolutions like 1280x720. Hmm...

Let's try to work together on this, LawrenceGould, & see if we can get more people to join our blind crusade of leading the blind. How does that saying go? - "Even a blind hog finds an acorn now & then"

Thanks,
jawgee
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post #5 of 23 Old 09-09-2004, 12:02 PM
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My TV is Widescreen... and I'm able to get a pretty decent picture that covers most of the screen in 1080i. I can run 720p - but my TV doesn't do that resolution 'natively' (whatever that means) - and I believe that it converts any 720p signal to 1080i...

I still don't understand the difference between the resolution that you choose and the picture size and shape... is resolution just size or is it a measure of detail as well (ie higher resolution better detail)? I don't understand how the 'resize' that people perform using ffdshow is different from just choosing a different resolution in graphics display.

Anyway, I'm using my HDTV as a second monitor - which is how I can play video even though my HDTV is flickering insanely - I open the video on my regular monitor and then, miraculously, the HDTV stops flickering and displays the movie. The detail is pretty good - though not quite as good as my computer monitor - close though. I wish there were a way to improve the playback quality of some of my compressed movies (divx, xvid..). Still, it beats the hell out of the s-video connection that I was using.

I don't think that my system is fast enough to do some of the zoom player / ffdshow modifications that I have read about - but I'm still tinkering in that area. I think one might need better than a 5200 AGP 128mb video card to do that stuff.

Also, what is VMR9????

Signed,

Few Answers, Lots O Questions

What is 'overlay'??
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post #6 of 23 Old 09-09-2004, 01:49 PM - Thread Starter
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My problem is based on the fact that I'm trying to fit a widescreen resolution onto a 4:3 display using a driver set (NVIDIA Forceware 66.00) that was designed specifically for 16:9 HDTV users. If you install the Forceware 66.00 drivers, you should be able to find an HDTV resolution that works for you without getting an overscan issues. The fact that you are using the two displays might complicate the issue; not certain about that.

Because your HDTV can't natively display a certain resolution doesn't mean that you can't use that res. Have you actually tried setting your res to 1280x720? If you use the official NVIDIA drivers (61.77 at the moment) then I'm guessing you'll get an overscanned display. The Forceware 66.00 drivers will fix that for you provided you use one of the HDTV settings & choose a setting (can't remember which one) that shows your entire desktop without any overscan.

I can't give you complete or real definitions of what VMR9 & overlay are. They are similar in that they are the "technology" that displays video on your display output. I believe that you can only choose one type per video card. IOW, you can't run video using VMR9 if you have Overlay enabled in your video player. Each type has its pros & cons & only newer video cards are able to use VMR9 which I believe the FX5200 is capable of.

I'm afraid that you can't be in my 7l33t "4:3-HDTV-owners-with-NVIDIA-display-problems" club since you are using a widescreen HDTV. ;) I'm sure you'll find many other video frustration clubs that you'll be eligible for.

C'mon - any other folks want to join my club?? There must be other 4:3 HDTV owners using NVIDIA cards.

Thanks,
jawgee
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post #7 of 23 Old 09-11-2004, 05:58 PM
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Count me in as one that needs help. Could some good samaritan please help us out? I am running a Sony 32" HS420, using an ATI Radeon, with the dongle, I got a perfect no overscan 720p image (using a custom of 1152x658 on a 1280x720 timing). Basically, the driver just lets you trim "off" the overscan from the 1280x720 res, such that res that fills the screen is still overscanned, but the image is squezed so that you don't miss any of it.. (imagine a 1152x768 image centered on a 1280x720 canvas, and is then overscanned)...

Anywho, I also want a 4:3 image, but it seems that my only starting resolutions that I can trim are 16x9. (480i,p, 720p, 1080i, and a 16x9 option.)

Someone PLEASE HELP US 4:3 folks...
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post #8 of 23 Old 09-14-2004, 10:45 AM
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for those of you going from your computer to your HDTV and are saying you have a 'pretty good' picture, is it better PQ then you guys would get if you went directly from a DVD plyer to your HDTV? (assuming you're playing DVDs on your computer)

thanks.
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post #9 of 23 Old 09-14-2004, 12:08 PM - Thread Starter
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I would say that the PQ is better on when I play a DVD on my HTPC through DVI/HDMI to my Sanyo 32" HDTV. This would depend on the filters & codecs involved, but as examples, I've tested both "The Matrix" & "Finding Nemo" through my HTPC & my Toshiba SD-V55HT progressive scan DVD player. WinDVD 6 with some setting turned on (sharpness?), looked better & showed more detail than the Toshiba DVD player (with PS activated). This isn't even getting into all of the other more complex filters that one can implement using an HTPC!!

In the grand scheme of things, it wasn't a huge difference; my wife probably would barely notice it & not care either way. But, aren't we all striving for the best picture that we can possibly get (afford :D)?

Now, if I can just figure out my stretchy resolution issue...:rolleyes:

Thanks,
jawgee
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post #10 of 23 Old 09-14-2004, 12:41 PM
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Sounds like the issue may not be resolution per se, but the scan rate. Does your HDTV automatically go into squeeze mode when fed an HDTV signal? If so, the only solution to get fullscreen is to feed it a true 480p, 31.5KHz scan rate signal. Read my guide for some 480p resolutions that emulate a 480p progressive scan DVD player.
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post #11 of 23 Old 09-14-2004, 01:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by jawgee
In the grand scheme of things, it wasn't a huge difference; my wife probably would barely notice it & not care either way. But, aren't we all striving for the best picture that we can possibly get (afford :D)?
and also w/ a HTPC you can get Tivo features :D and play other formats you couldnt in a dvd player... this is definietly intriguing me. i might go buy a dvi->hdmi cord just to try this out on my new tv
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post #12 of 23 Old 09-14-2004, 02:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by Karnis
Sounds like the issue may not be resolution per se, but the scan rate. Does your HDTV automatically go into squeeze mode when fed an HDTV signal? If so, the only solution to get fullscreen is to feed it a true 480p, 31.5KHz scan rate signal. Read my guide for some 480p resolutions that emulate a 480p progressive scan DVD player.
Thanks for the reply, Karnis. I haven't even thought about scan rates (don't really want to think about them to be precise :eek: ), but I have read about them while reading your guide. I haven't touched Powerstrip yet; is there another place to adjust scan rates?

Anyway, I can get everything to appear correctly if I click on my "Pix Shape" button on my TV remote to show "Letterbox" view. The crappy thing about this is that I get black bars on the top & bottom when looking at Windows or other apps while not playing a video. So, I'm thinking that my HDTV thinks that the signal coming from the HTPC is a widescreen source & treating it as such. I dunno...just a guess. Gonna try to work on Powerstrip tonight (gulp :( ). Wish me luck...

Thanks,
jawgee
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post #13 of 23 Old 10-19-2004, 08:25 AM
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I have a Sanyo 32" 4:3 HDTV. I have been trying to get a 1080i resolution to work with it, but currently can only get a 720p. That's sort of another story. I have no expectation that I will ever get a 4:3 pixel resolution to work, and really it shouldn't be neccesary.

The issue is that that the software you're using needs to know what the real aspect ratio of your display is. Pixel ratio is probably what every program uses by default without any real consideration for us poor 4:3 HDTV owners.

In MythTV (the software I use) I set an aspect ratio override to 16:9 anamorphic. Which sure seems odd, but it works. I guess this would make normal aspect material look stretched on an actual 16:9 display, but since it's physically 4:3, it looks perfect.

For playing movies (actualy ~16:9 content) I use mplayer or xine. These too have aspect ratio toggles. I just cycle through them and one of the options looks perfect.

So to sum up my rambling, I'm not sure you'll ever get a 4:3 pixel ratio resolution (like 800x600, 1024x768, 1600x1200) to work on the average HDTV, even if it's physically 4:3. We just need software that's smart enough to understand the difference between the display size and display resolution.

I think.
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post #14 of 23 Old 10-19-2004, 09:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by AranC23
I have a Sanyo 32" 4:3 HDTV. I have been trying to get a 1080i resolution to work with it, but currently can only get a 720p. That's sort of another story. I have no expectation that I will ever get a 4:3 pixel resolution to work, and really it shouldn't be neccesary.

The issue is that that the software you're using needs to know what the real aspect ratio of your display is. Pixel ratio is probably what every program uses by default without any real consideration for us poor 4:3 HDTV owners.

In MythTV (the software I use) I set an aspect ratio override to 16:9 anamorphic. Which sure seems odd, but it works. I guess this would make normal aspect material look stretched on an actual 16:9 display, but since it's physically 4:3, it looks perfect.

For playing movies (actualy ~16:9 content) I use mplayer or xine. These too have aspect ratio toggles. I just cycle through them and one of the options looks perfect.

So to sum up my rambling, I'm not sure you'll ever get a 4:3 pixel ratio resolution (like 800x600, 1024x768, 1600x1200) to work on the average HDTV, even if it's physically 4:3. We just need software that's smart enough to understand the difference between the display size and display resolution.

I think.
I also have the 32" version of the Sanyo and I am also struggling to get a proper display up and running. Could you post your apps and settings for each component to get your above described display to work on our 32" deal from Wally World?

Thanks :)
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post #15 of 23 Old 10-20-2004, 10:05 AM
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For Sony HDTV 4:3 (actual aspect ratio of the TV), search this forum for JUMP (service menu item. Be very careful when you mess with your service menu. If messed up, only an expensive techi can help you :) )..

Basically, JUMP in the Sony 4:3 displays means: If the TV sees ANY resolution that is more than 480p vertical, it Jumps to a SQUEEZE mode to try to fit what it thinks a 16:9 pciture.
You can have Jump (aspect ratio blah) set to Auto (default) in the TV main menu, or to ON (means JUMP ALL THE TIME, even for 480p), but there is no option to have JUMP OFF (which is very stupid of SONY, since a PC screen/XBOX games ...etc. can have more than 480p but still be 4:3 size, so does not need to JUMP :( )..
To turn JUMP OFF, you need to use the serivce menu (carefully, after you read all relevant threads about this).


There is a looong disucssion about this in some thread (or multiple threads) a while back.. Search this forum for those keywod: JUMP SONY.. If you did not find it, let me know..

I do not know about Sanyo, but it maybe doing the same sort of thing...

Cheers...
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post #16 of 23 Old 10-20-2004, 10:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by quezwood
I also have the 32" version of the Sanyo and I am also struggling to get a proper display up and running. Could you post your apps and settings for each component to get your above described display to work on our 32" deal from Wally World?

Thanks :)
I could certainly do so, but only if you're interested in Linux configuration information. I tinkered with PowerStrip for a little bit and got nowhere. The linux modeline I am using is:

ModeLine "ATSC-720-59.94p" 74.086 1280 1320 1376 1648 720 722 728 750

It might be possible to get PowerStrip to turn that into something it can use.
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post #17 of 23 Old 11-30-2004, 11:56 AM
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I purchased a Diamond Stealth S100SE and wanted to hook it up to my Sanyo 32" HT32744 HDTV, via a DVI-HDMI cable. When I plug the cable in I get a display on the tv for literally a second and then the screen goes blank. If I wait for a couple of seconds the picture will come back and vanish, again, in a second. It just keeps doing this. I don't want to use S-video if I can use the DVI connection instead. What am I doing wrong???? I really want to hook this thing up and get it working. I've tried to use Powerstrip but I get nothing with that. Strangely enough, the drivers that come with the card have gotten me closer to an actual display. Is it a problem with the video card??? If it is, what would video card would you recommend.
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post #18 of 23 Old 11-30-2004, 12:19 PM
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It might have something to do with the refresh rates...try setting your PC to 640x480 first and then plug it.

ABS '73
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post #19 of 23 Old 11-30-2004, 01:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by donxavier
I purchased a Diamond Stealth S100SE...
Never heard of that card. Googling surprisingly comes up empty. How does one get drivers for it & do you believe that your driver supports DVI at the resolution you're currently using?

Thanks,
jawgee
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post #20 of 23 Old 12-01-2004, 06:59 AM
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I was able to get HD 4:3 going on my Hitachi 43FDX01. I ended up being quite simple. I selected 1080ix1920 (HDTV standard) (1000ix1776 works too) in Custom Resolutions on PowerSTrip, then selected 4:3 on the right side of the screen. PowerStrip then cut off a few hundred vertical lines on the right side making a proper 4:3 aspect ratio. When I selected it, the screen went jumpy but I was able to see enough to adjust timings (the vertical inward arrows or vertical outward arrows, I forget which and I'm not at home right now) until the screen stabilized. I required only two clicks. With this resolution, it was a automatically squeezed 16:9 image on the TV, but the Hitachi has an 'Aspect' button which made it full-screen and looking normal.

Cheers,

Rob
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post #21 of 23 Old 12-01-2004, 08:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Interesting. Thanks for sharing, Rob. It sounds too easy :-) I'll have to give it a shot tonight.

Thanks,
jawgee
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post #22 of 23 Old 12-05-2004, 12:14 PM
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Have any of you had any success? I'm having the same sort of problems. I couldn't find anything by searching for SONY JUMP.
I am sorry if it seems I'm asking the same question as those above me, or if you've read one of my posts elsewhere, but I'm desperate.
I have a Sony 27KVHS420 4:3 HDTV. I'm currently using the s-video connection from my HTPC (9800pro) at 800x600. It's not horrible but definately not what I would like. I understand my TV's not the biggest baddest thing out there, but it will have to work for now.

I have been seriously considering the 2200 to make the text more readable. I've tried a DVI-->HDMI cable and powerstrip but haven't been able to get anything satisfactory. Excuse me please if I'm asking for the impossible but what I would love to do is put a 1024x768 desktop on my TV and have the text be readable. 800x600 with crisp text would suffice. Is this possible? Does anyone have any suggestions? Is the Crescendo 2200 my best option? ( I would rather not have to use DVDIdle ).

Thanks in advance.
JD
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post #23 of 23 Old 12-05-2004, 12:31 PM
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Sony TV automatically squeeze your desktop to 16:9 ratio because it detects a HD signal...so using the jump feature in the service menu is not the way to go. I have the 32hs510...using the latest beta of powerstrip, I can get a custom resolution with the new tool in the custom resolutions section.
Check this post out.....
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...36#post4738836

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