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post #6871 of 12477 Old 05-02-2006, 07:01 AM
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Originally Posted by ebo View Post

I don't know what's in a TiVo, but the needs of a DVR drive are different from those of typical computer storage,..., they tend to be 5400 RPM because faster drives are no advantage for reading or writing HD and tend to run hotter. ...

Not sure about TIVO, but I know on replay you can use some "ordinary" drives. Some will work, and some will not. As you point out 5400 rpm is the speed to purchase. When a cheap drive comes on the market, there is always an active discussion in the AVSreplay forum if it will work in a replay.
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post #6872 of 12477 Old 05-02-2006, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by TPeterson View Post

A PVR has no excuse to be on 24/7. MyHD will work very well to control the machine from hibernation. If S4 doesn't work properly so that the machine is effectively off unless it's recording or playing to a live audience, you need a different PC/mobo. It seems that there are compound problems with your sick puppy.

Ok, I decided to take the plunge. But alas, almost all of the newer MB seem to have PCI-express. In fact I could not find any quality board for AMD based system that is current and respected (and uATX) that does not have PCI_express.

Is PCI-express seriously bad for MyHD? or is it that some of them have problem with MyHD.

Regards
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post #6873 of 12477 Old 05-02-2006, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by rramesh View Post

Ok, I decided to take the plunge. But alas, almost all of the newer MB seem to have PCI-express. In fact I could not find any quality board for AMD based system that is current and respected (and uATX) that does not have PCI_express.

Is PCI-express seriously bad for MyHD? or is it that some of them have problem with MyHD.

Regards
Ramesh

IIRC, your machine is to be a dedicated MyHD HTPC, so why does it need to be a "newer" mobo? You could go with many, ahem, mature mobos that are known to work well with HTPC hw and sw.

To answer your question, there's a list on DC's website (linked in the MetaFAQ, I think) of some PCI-e mobos that work with MyHD.
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post #6874 of 12477 Old 05-02-2006, 02:18 PM
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Originally Posted by TPeterson View Post

IIRC, your machine is to be a dedicated MyHD HTPC, so why does it need to be a "newer" mobo? You could go with many, ahem, mature mobos that are known to work well with HTPC hw and sw.

To answer your question, there's a list on DC's website (linked in the MetaFAQ, I think) of some PCI-e mobos that work with MyHD.

No, it does not have to be newer. But, it needs to be AMD compatible and uATX (my case only takes uATX and uses uATX supply and I have AMD proc). I searched newegg and cameup with empty hand (my current MB is there but I do not care for that obviously and other brands are unknown) Do you have another site (perhaps with more choices for HTPC)

I saw DC site. But it lists a few MB and none are ok for me. I was hoping to get more info here

BTW, I just learned from BIOSTAR my MB (M7NGC 400) is a cost reduced version and therefore does not support wake from suspend using SW - what a let down.

Thanks for all the help.

Regards
Ramesh
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post #6875 of 12477 Old 05-02-2006, 03:03 PM
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Originally Posted by rramesh View Post

No, it does not have to be newer. But, it needs to be AMD compatible and uATX (my case only takes uATX and uses uATX supply and I have AMD proc). I searched newegg and cameup with empty hand (my current MB is there but I do not care for that obviously and other brands are unknown) Do you have another site (perhaps with more choices for HTPC)

I saw DC site. But it lists a few MB and none are ok for me. I was hoping to get more info here

BTW, I just learned from BIOSTAR my MB (M7NGC 400) is a cost reduced version and therefore does not support wake from suspend using SW - what a let down.

Thanks for all the help.

Regards
Ramesh

Several years ago I was using a Biostar M7VIG that supported S3 and S4 sleep states very well. I expect that a recent version of that board would work for you, unless I have the various "ATX" sizes confused--and if I've got the wrong size, perhaps you can find the non "cost reduced" version of your mobo at www.pricewatch.com.
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post #6876 of 12477 Old 05-02-2006, 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by TPeterson View Post

Several years ago I was using a Biostar M7VIG that supported S3 and S4 sleep states very well. I expect that a recent version of that board would work for you, unless I have the various "ATX" sizes confused--and if I've got the wrong size, perhaps you can find the non "cost reduced" version of your mobo at www.pricewatch.com.

Thanks. They don't make the regular (non cost-reduced) version any more due to price pressure. Yes, the older versions (versions 1-6) did have S3/S4. The newer ones have them too. But if you get to S3/S4 then you cannot get back to normal with SW. You need KB/mouse etc activity to come out.

It looks like I have to hunt. Let me see what I get.

Regards
Ramesh
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post #6877 of 12477 Old 05-02-2006, 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted by TPeterson View Post

Actually, if you check their specifications, the HDD manufacturers usually refer to "enterprise level" performance and talk about MTBF "at full duty cycle" whereas they speak of "consumer products" and "low duty-cycle servers" otherwise. Their vanilla PC HDD are not intended for 24/7 constant R/W activity. You can get lucky, but a significant fraction of ordinary PC HDD will die well short of a typical 3-5 years of service life in such use. I say why press your luck and waste energy?

The enterprise level drives you're speaking of are mega expensive and would pretty much never be found in a consumer device (like a Tivo) or in a home PC. Those drives also tend to be pretty noisy and are usually SCSI. We use drives like that in our web servers, database servers, and other production systems at work.

Quote:


BTW, I don't have a TiVo; if it's really true that they run their HDD 24/7 simply to have "instant on" for the timeshifting of whatever channel happens to be tuned, that's the first truly stupid design decision I've heard of them making.

Full time timeshifting is one of the key features that is advertised. It certainly isn't stupid if you happen to come home and find that it happens to be tuned to a show that started within the last half hour that you forgot to record. What might be smarter, however, would be to give the user the choice of always timeshifting or not. IIRC, UltimateTV also had full time timeshifting - not sure about Replay as I've never used one and haven't really paid much attention to them.

Quote:


P.S.: Even so, the data rates involved in SD-TiVos are so much smaller than for buffering ATSC TS, that the comparison of wear-and-tear is actually specious.

While that statement is true, there's also something called the HD Tivo (which I'm sure you're aware of) that does the same thing the SD Tivo's do but adds HD capability (OTA and Satellite) to the mix. The HD Tivo uses the same basic drives the SD Tivo uses.

The original drive from my 1st HD Tivo is in my desk where I'm typing - it's a Western Digital WD2500BB-55GUA0:

WD = Western Digital
2500 = 250GB
BB = 7200RPM, ATA-100
55 = Vendor code, 55 is presumably Tivo
GU = From what I can find, no one outside of WD knows what this piece of the code is.
A0 = Speculation is that this is either an indicator of quality, or what model revision the drive is.

So the WD2500BB-55GUA0 drive might be a higher quality version of the standard WD2500BB drive you can buy off the shelf at CompUSA, Best Buy, Circuit City, etc. or it might be the exact same thing.

What I can say is that I've upgraded the capacity in my Tivo's (we currently have 4 SD Tivo's and 2 HD Tivo's in the house) for the last several years using standard off the shelf 7200 RPM drives from Western Digital and Seagate and have had only 1 drive go bad in that time - and it was actually one of the original 40GB drives that came in one of the SD Tivo's, so none of the "consumer" level drives have failed me yet. The Tivo's came from the factory with 1 drive and all have 2 drives in them.
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post #6878 of 12477 Old 05-02-2006, 04:51 PM
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Originally Posted by gsr View Post

We use {enterprise-level} drives...in our web servers, database servers, and other production systems at work.

QED.

My point really isn't that TiVo, or any other consumer device manufacturer uses enterprise-level HDD. It's that the HDD manufacturers don't design consumer-level drives for 24/7 R/W duty, so it's foolhardy to use them that way.
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Originally Posted by gsr View Post

Full time timeshifting...certainly isn't stupid if you happen to come home and find that it happens to be tuned to a show that started within the last half hour that you forgot to record.

And how stupid is it when it happened to be tuned to Ch7 when your show started 1/2-hour ago on Ch9?
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Originally Posted by gsr View Post

What might be smarter, however, would be to give the user the choice of always timeshifting or not.

We're in violent agreement here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gsr View Post

The HD Tivo uses the same basic drives the SD Tivo uses.

Since you go on to note that the HD Tivo's HDD spec. differs from the commonly available version in undefined ways (i.e., it has undefined segments of its part number that may indeed certify it for tough duty) how can you be certain of this statement?

I repeat: MyHD was provided with on-demand Timeshifting simply because standard PC HDD are not designed for full-time Timeshifting. Prudent MyHD users can take note.
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post #6879 of 12477 Old 05-02-2006, 05:03 PM
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In my experience the main difference with the consumer-level drives is inconsistent quality. You have more chance to get bad batches of drives dumped in the consumer-level market than with enterprise. Every manufacturer gets bad batches of drives and they just dump it on the consumers and have warranty take care of it.

This idea of drives not being designed for 24/7 IMO started with IBM Deathstar debacle where IBM started claiming their drives weren't designed for 24/7 and that was the explanation for the super high death rates (google "deathstar click of death") People laughed at IBM when they made this claim, but slowly over the years that has been the marketing push for consumer-level drives to pump up the more lucrative enterprise-level drive.

In fact you can get consumer-level drives that work fine 24/7 and you can also get consumer-level drives that will not work well 24/7, but the latter are mostly just bad drives to start with. The Seagate 7200.7 drives had some legendary reliability numbers at storage review. Lots of people used these drives in PVRs and have no issues running them 24/7. They are better than 85% of their competition based on StorageReview #s. This was when Seagate was first getting back into the consumer market and offering 5yr warranties when most everyone else had 3yr or were dropping to 1yr. Now the 7200.8 series on the other hand was problem-plagued and even though the drive still had 5yr warranty, it was only as reliable as 11% of it's pears.

To give you an example of an "enterprise" level drive the Seagate Cheetah's are usually sitting around 80-90% and Western Digital "Raptor" drives are around 75-85%. This is comparable to the 7200.7 consumer-level drive.

BTW these are *not* failure rates, rather failure rates relative to the competition.

So IMO you can get consumer-level drives that work 24/7 no problem and many of them do, but consumer-level drive quality is also less consistent than enterprise level drives, so you also will tend to have the most problems with the consumer-level drives.

I have 5 x Maxtor 200GB drives that have been running 24/7 for 3.5 years now with no issues in ReplayTV PVRs.

Also there are many people who use consumer-level drives in RAID5 arrays in workgroup environments which are constantly writing/reading data, even more stressful than PVR usage due to people accessing different parts of the drive. PVR usage, even HD PVR usage is not that stressful because the majority of access is relatively sequential.
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post #6880 of 12477 Old 05-02-2006, 05:18 PM
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5 times out of 6 you can win at Russian Roulette too. That doesn't prove that it's a prudent passtime.
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post #6881 of 12477 Old 05-02-2006, 05:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TPeterson View Post

5 times out of 6 you can win at Russian Roulette too. That doesn't prove that it's a prudent passtime.

Yeah, but with hard drives you can get shot just as often not playing Russian Roulette so playing the game isn't really that big a deal, rather it is just the cost of doing business.
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post #6882 of 12477 Old 05-02-2006, 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted by TPeterson View Post

5 times out of 6 you can win at Russian Roulette too. That doesn't prove that it's a prudent passtime.

Let's see:

Worst case if you lose at Russian Roulette is death. If you get the loaded chamber and are "lucky" you might get off with a serious flesh wound. This is definitely a chance I'm not interested in taking.

Worst case if a hard drive fails on your PVR is you have to get a new drive, you might lose some shows you recorded, and you might have to reinstall the OS. The last 2 downsides depend on whether anything else shared the drive used for timeshift duty. Doesn't sound like too big a deal to me - definitely beats losing at Russian Roulette by a longshot. Meanwhile, my Tivo's continue to do their thing with lowly off the shelf drives as do many other Tivo's (and UltimateTV's and ReplayTV's) that have been upgraded over the years. This is a chance I'll take.

No argument that if at all possible one should use a dedicated drive for 24/7 timeshift duty just in case, but I think you're over-exaggerating just how bad it is to have a drive running 24/7 for PVR duty. Perhaps we'll simply need to agree to disagree on this...
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post #6883 of 12477 Old 05-02-2006, 06:24 PM
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If I gave you both minimum wage for the amount of time you've spent typing in this p*ssing contest, you'd have enough money to buy hard drive warranties that would last long beyond the life of your tuner boards. ;-)
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post #6884 of 12477 Old 05-03-2006, 07:31 AM
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Originally Posted by sfhub View Post

I have 5 x Maxtor 200GB drives that have been running 24/7 for 3.5 years now with no issues in ReplayTV PVRs.

It's worth noting that this experience is shared by others posting on the replaytv forum. There are differences between consumer drives (not all brands work), but those that do work, work for all. It is not Russian Roulette for a brand that works, that analogy overstates the risk

FWIIW, I picked up a consumer grade 160 g drive, recommended on the replaytv forum, installed it about 1 1/2 years ago and it has worked 24/7 without problem

--G
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post #6885 of 12477 Old 05-03-2006, 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by sengsational View Post

If I gave you both minimum wage for the amount of time you've spent typing in this p*ssing contest, you'd have enough money to buy hard drive warranties that would last long beyond the life of your tuner boards. ;-)

I don't want a warranty replacement, I want my data and to save energy. That's why I set Power Options to hibernate my HTPC after 15 minutes of inactivity and use on-demand Timeshifting (except for the times when I employ the scheduled-watch Tivo hack, and then it's effectively "on demand" because the machine is asleep until the show starts).
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post #6886 of 12477 Old 05-03-2006, 08:44 AM
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I'd much rather have a reliable drive with 1yr warranty than a poor quality drive with 5yr warranty. My experiences just tend to indicate reliability cannot be easily correlated with things like 24/7 usage and long manufacturer warranties. They are most likely correlated with reliability of a particular design or particular manufacturing batch, things that change every 6 months or areas where consumers are not privy to inside knowledge. That is my experience with about 20 drives in PVR and RAID5 usage. Terry's experience leads him to feel 24/7 usage is an important criteria for drive life. We just have different experiences.
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post #6887 of 12477 Old 05-03-2006, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by TPeterson View Post

I don't want a warranty replacement, I want my data and to save energy. That's why I set Power Options to hibernate ..

The unspoken assumption is that fatigue life is associated with the number of revolutions of of the disk, and that might not be the case. The fatigure "cycle" might be the start up and shutdown sequence. What you are doing may stress the disk more than simply leaving it on

I'm not sure... anyone know for a fact?

--G
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post #6888 of 12477 Old 05-03-2006, 10:43 AM
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You can't have "an...criteria" because that's a plural (like media--but in this case the singular ends in "on" instead of "um").

George--

On the contrary, my assumption is that the fatiguing act is the motion of the R/W heads, which is nearly continuous for Timeshifting operation and very much less so in regular PC operation were R/Ws are done in bursts of low duty cycle.
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post #6889 of 12477 Old 05-03-2006, 11:58 AM
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[quote=... my assumption is that the fatiguing act is the motion of the R/W heads, which is nearly continuous for Timeshifting operation and very much less so in regular PC operation were R/Ws are done in bursts of low duty cycle.[/QUOTE]

good point
--G
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post #6890 of 12477 Old 05-03-2006, 06:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TPeterson View Post

... my assumption is that the fatiguing act is the motion of the R/W heads, which is nearly continuous for Timeshifting operation and very much less so in regular PC operation were R/Ws are done in bursts of low duty cycle.

That, and have you ever laid your hand on a drive that's been doing HD timeshifting for 5 hours straight? Dang, I think you could fry an egg! How long would your drive last in a 175 degree oven? That's why mine goes off. Besides saving the planet, I can't imagine it's good for a drive to bake for hours on end. Yeah, I know, cycling temperatures can't be very good either, but I don't think in an hour it gets as hot as just letting it timeshift all of the time (that assumption could be easily proven, as opposed to most of the ideas being discussed in this, the HTPC hard drive thread :-).

--Dale--
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post #6891 of 12477 Old 05-03-2006, 07:44 PM
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Dale, you're quite right that HDD don't like high temps. In fact, even in normal service some of them require forced airflow to remain under their max-temp spec., typically 50C internal. That's one reason that S.M.A.R.T. reporting usually includes a temp measurement.
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post #6892 of 12477 Old 05-04-2006, 10:31 AM
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I'm having a strange problem with myhd-130 card. The menu sometimes goes to strange colors and bloomed out. Pink, Yellow, lite blue and such and hard to read, all menues and guide. I have to reboot the computer to get back to normal. Win XP, tried 2 different video cards. Im running the latest drivers. This seems to happen only when I wake it up for the first time any day.
Any ideas what is the problem?
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post #6893 of 12477 Old 05-04-2006, 10:47 AM
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Larry, this is a known issue that MIT says is due to a Windows API bug. The only known "solution" is the one you're using: Reboot. I was about to send you to the MetaFAQ to read up on it, but it seems not to be discussed there (yet).
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post #6894 of 12477 Old 05-04-2006, 01:43 PM
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I was just about to come and look for an answer to the same problem (sort of). I finally got my NEW MDP-130 from DC (thank you!) after returning the broken eBay one (with full refund ) and everything has been just perfect until today I get a solid white block around the OSD. I'm assuming this is the same issue.

I also want to take this opportunity to thank everyone for all the help that has been provided here. The help this place offers is priceless.

"If you never did, you should. These things are fun and fun is good."- Dr. Seuss
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post #6895 of 12477 Old 05-04-2006, 02:40 PM
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The help this place offers is priceless.

What? You haven't gotten the bill?

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post #6896 of 12477 Old 05-04-2006, 07:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TPeterson View Post

Larry, this is a known issue that MIT says is due to a Windows API bug. The only known "solution" is the one you're using: Reboot. I was about to send you to the MetaFAQ to read up on it, but it seems not to be discussed there (yet).

Do you know what trips the critter, causing it to make its presence known? Too bad the critter does wander onto one of those hot HDDs and become a crispy critter

I've never seen such a bug.

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post #6897 of 12477 Old 05-04-2006, 07:32 PM
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Originally Posted by rramesh View Post

No, it does not have to be newer. But, it needs to be AMD compatible and uATX (my case only takes uATX and uses uATX supply and I have AMD proc). I searched newegg and cameup with empty hand (my current MB is there but I do not care for that obviously and other brands are unknown) Do you have another site (perhaps with more choices for HTPC)

Have you looked at the ASUS A8V mobo? It is an AMD 939 socketed mobo.

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post #6898 of 12477 Old 05-04-2006, 07:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pglenn View Post

92-x
MYHD
--- 92-1 = FOX-HD/ WSVN
--- 92-2 = PBS
--- 92-3 = ARTS
--- 92-4 = (nothing displayed)
--- 92-5 = PBS-HD

I don't have cable, I don't want cable. I don't even have a pizza-pan dish. I'm a card carrying BUDhead (no TP, not butthead, BUDhead )

Please let know know that my assumption is wrong... Are the 4 (maybe 5) digital channels that are shown above really on ONE 6 MHz RF channel? Having one HD channel maxes out a 6 MHz channel, having two as well as 2-3 SD channels must cause all kinds of macroblocking. There just aren't enough bits to go around.

"What do you say Beckett. Wanna have a baby?" - Castle to Det. Beckett
"How Long have I been gone?" Alexis after arriving home and seeing Castle and Beckett w/ the baby - Castle - 11/25/13
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post #6899 of 12477 Old 05-04-2006, 07:50 PM
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Do you know what trips the critter {OSD palette corruption}...?

No. It's been known to occur for several years and, AFAIK, nobody's discerned a pattern to it yet.

Rewriting MyHD to remove its dependency on that buggy API has been (low) on the to-do list for about as long.
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post #6900 of 12477 Old 05-04-2006, 07:55 PM
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Have you looked at the ASUS A8V mobo? It is an AMD 939 socketed mobo.

Isn't this a PCI-express board. Per my search it is (Both A8V-MX and A8V-VM are PCI-exp) and MyHD does not like PCI-e.

Actually, I found quite a few board and none would wakeup from S3 under SW control

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