MS DRM Cracked? - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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Old 02-01-2005, 04:10 PM
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Apple seems to have survived the various DRMed-AAC hacks so far, but of course one of they ways they've done that is by breaking hacks with firmware upgrades. I suppose MS could do the same with WMP upgrades.

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Old 02-01-2005, 04:24 PM
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First of all, I think it only affects WMV. Second, no one's going to remove or hold back on content they have released or are in the process of release. Did iTMS go down after the Hymn project started? No, they just updated their software to break de-DRMed files. They'll keep on going back and forth on it too, mainly because trying to stomp out open-source software is both illegal if it has legal uses and nearly impossible to do.

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Old 02-01-2005, 04:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dean Roddey
And what has been achieved besides a slowdown or stopping of desirable delivery of content in that format?
What the hell... along with previous suggestions, how about not having to screw with the stupid disc?, being able to append all the files into one? Being able to play it on any player? Increased playback performance? Reduced file size? Playback on an offline computer? The whole format has just been one big mistake. The titles have been stuffed up with DRM crap since their inception, and there is already is a slowdown. Maybe if we all had waited another 12 years we might have bought T3 just to get screwed by DRM again.
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Old 02-01-2005, 04:45 PM
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gameboy, yeah, I assumed we were talking about WMV. Of course WMA is affected even worse. :)
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Old 02-01-2005, 05:21 PM
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And what has been achieved besides a slowdown or stopping of desirable delivery of content in that format?
It acheived something positive for me--I finally bought the T2:Extreme package today now that I can actually use the WMV-HD version without having to worry about Artisan's license servers going down or having them decide to no longer support it. As for new stuff in the format--HD-DVD and Blu-ray are around the corner for high-value content, and providers of other content will be happy with MS's next DRM iteration.

Net gain: 1 (more for people interested in other protected discs)
Net loss: 0

Winner: DRM crackers. Next format. ;)

"Via, concursus, tempus, spatium, audi me ut imperio. Screw it! Mighty forces, I suck at Latin, OK? But that's not the issue. I'm the one in charge, and I'm telling you open up, portal, now!"--Willow, *Buffy the Vampire Slayer*
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Old 02-01-2005, 05:25 PM
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The net loss is that WMV was already a marginal format, and it's probably been seriously damaged now. The studios don't give a crap about delivered content to the PC in HD, in any financial terms. Do you really think that they'll continue to put out super high quality content on a format that doesn't make them any money to begin with if it can be cracked? DVD is bad enough, but we are talking about much higher quality content stuff here. With HD discs on the horizon, I wouldn't be suprised if they just flipped you guys the bird and moved on and you can sit around and gloat about how you stuck it to the man, when you only stuck to yourselves.

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Old 02-01-2005, 05:32 PM
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JBlacklow,

First, you are wrong about WMRM hack affecting WMV only. This is WMRM hack and it affects any media encrypted by WMRM.

Second, unless you have spoken with the labels yourself, I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss this problem.

Unlike the half-ass DRM that Apple uses (if you can even call it DRM), WMRM grants a lot more variety of rights to users which allows vendors like Napster to offer more diverse services. And if those special rights are compromised, labels will be pretty upset and would not surprise me if they acted unreasonably.
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Old 02-01-2005, 05:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dean Roddey
The net loss is that WMV was already a marginal format, and it's probably been seriously damaged now. The studios don't give a crap about delivered content to the PC in HD, in any financial terms. Do you really think that they'll continue to put out super high quality content on a format that doesn't make them any money to begin with if it can be cracked? DVD is bad enough, but we are talking about much higher quality content stuff here. With HD discs on the horizon, I wouldn't be suprised if they just flipped you guys the bird and moved on and you can sit around and gloat about how you stuck it to the man, when you only stuck to yourselves.
DVD is bad enough?!?!

http://www.telecoms.com/marlin/20001...sh=10023211bae

http://money.cnn.com/2005/01/14/tech...vd_sales.reut/

http://www.usatoday.com/life/movies/...r-movies_x.htm

What world do you live in when revenues like these are "bad enough"?

You're turing into a troll.

Ozy
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Old 02-01-2005, 05:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by gameboy
JBlacklow,

First, you are wrong about WMRM hack affecting WMV only. This is WMRM hack and it affects any media encrypted by WMRM.

Second, unless you have spoken with the labels yourself, I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss this problem.

Unlike the half-ass DRM that Apple uses (if you can even call it DRM), WMRM grants a lot more variety of rights to users which allows vendors like Napster to offer more diverse services. And if those special rights are compromised, labels will be pretty upset and would not surprise me if they acted unreasonably.
And others will fill in the vacuum left by their "unreasonable" actions.

Why on earth do you think we have to cater to their whims? For all those who tought the power of a capatalist society, there is profit to be made whether DRM exists or not. If certain players want to be "unreasonable" and forego profit because it isn't on the terms that they demand, then others who are willling to settle for just the profit will step up to the table if they are allowed.

Ozy
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Old 02-01-2005, 05:52 PM
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Dean out of respect (and I'm sure to some degree, forum rules) I accept your posts as they provide the counterargument which is usually necessary in a discussion, however your post:

"Yeh, you guys will just love those documentaries about the love life of the mid-western wood tick. But you've screwed yourself out of getting the good stuff, and the honest people who actually just wanted to get some good content in this format." - Dean Roddey

Is a downright stab at the legitimacy of the users on this board, I'm sure I speak for many when I say that I'm tired of being labelled a criminal by the rules set up in your utopia. According to your world anyone who opposes the will of the content owners is dishonest, those that are clueless as to the implications of such extreme measures are somehow honest by nature of their ignorance. (I am not quoting you, but this is the general flavour of your posts).

As I see it, the reason why we have these issues and all is because of false advertisement. How many people bought these DRM'd discs being fully aware of what it entails? Some are half aware that there would be some phoning home, but to them it was acceptable, but then they get stung with re-registering every few days, those that accepted that then learn that they can't bring their media along with them on holidays as the phone home DRM does not accept their IP address as being a valid distribution zone and so are denied. If everyone knew that this was what they were paying for when they bought into the WMV DRM discs, I can assure you most people won't be buying them, problem is not everyone knows this. Not all the DRM'd discs have all these problem as it is dependent on the decisions made by the content owner. How does one know what discs are affected in what way? I am pretty sure the owners of this content don't have to put up with all this stupidity, they're likely to have their own DRM free versions so couldn't give a toss about what the hapless consumer has to deal with. All this before you've even realised that the granting of access by a remote server allows them to change their rules at will to suit their own agendas. If I decide I would like to live in London all of a sudden, if CSS and region defeats weren't around, I'd have to re-buy all 300 of my DVDs, so it shall be with DRM content that employs such draconian measures.

Your failure to note the problems inherent in such a scheme are disappointing to say the least.

Cheers...
Duy-Khang Hoang
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Old 02-01-2005, 06:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by hdkhang
Your failure to note the problems inherent in such a scheme are disappointing to say the least.
Join the club!!!

Seriously, it is pointless to argue with Dean. I stopped doing it about a year ago. Your life will be much more enjoyable, trust me.
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Old 02-01-2005, 06:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by gameboy
Join the club!!!

Seriously, it is pointless to argue with Dean. I stopped doing it about a year ago. Your life will be much more enjoyable, trust me.
Hey, that's not in the FAQ! :)

Ozy
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Old 02-01-2005, 06:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dean Roddey
The net loss is that WMV was already a marginal format, and it's probably been seriously damaged now.
Which as I said is irrelevent, since HD-DVD and Blu-ray are right around the corner for high-value high-demand content. Microsoft will update its DRM to be more secure which will be good enough for purveyors of non-high-value non-high-demand content. The people who bought DRM'd films can now backup their purchases in-the-clear and never have to worry about license servers locking them out. It's a win for everyone, except for the money it costs Microsoft in man-hours to update their DRM; considering the record profits they just posted, that's a drop in the pail.

But don't think anyone was stupid enough to think this wouldn't happen sooner or later. Everyone expected it eventually, including the content industry. Even HDCP has already been cracked on paper. The trick is just to delay it as long as possible, since everything is doomed to be broken eventually.

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Old 02-01-2005, 07:04 PM
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Quote:
Seriously, it is pointless to argue with Dean. I stopped doing it about a year ago. Your life will be much more enjoyable, trust me.
If I don't think I'm right, I wouldn't be arguing the point to begin with, therefore you will never find yourself arguing with me about something I'm not convinced I'm right about. And I find it hilarious to read these kinds of things when hardly a one one of you has ever backed an inch back from your own positions.

As to my implying that anyone who doesn't agree with he is an idiot or dishonest, that's purely in your own imagination. I believe that people who steal content are dishonest. If that's not you, then that's not you. If it is you, then I think you are dishonest, because you are dishonest, and breaking the law to boot.

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Old 02-01-2005, 07:47 PM
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Did someone say something? I guess not... hmm... I feel better already.

J/K :p

Cheers...
Duy-Khang Hoang
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Old 02-01-2005, 07:50 PM
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Lets be fair though Dean, DRM does impinge on fair use far more than simply content theft (I know your argument that content providers must do something to protect themselves but given the record profits provided by insecure systems I am not sure I buy that argument)..

Look at me as a prime example.. Lived in 5 homes in 3 countries in 2 seperate continents in 5 or 6 years.. Now how am I supposed to invest in media when you never know if that will still be useable..

I was a DRM supporter at first because I thought it might give us the keys to the content.. Then backfires like the downed servers, region checking of IP and finally the issues for Blight and Andrew (which really showed how much the little guy / enthusiast is welcome at this party) all soured me to the format.. Net result of this news was my immediate thought that I could now order 'Step into Liquid'.. One more title sold..
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Old 02-01-2005, 07:53 PM
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Doesn't matter -- you guys can tussel in the dirt all you want --- there is no content.
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Old 02-01-2005, 08:14 PM
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Is that similar to "there is no spoon"?

Ozy
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Old 02-01-2005, 08:48 PM
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Old 02-01-2005, 09:14 PM
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Has anyone gotten a hand on these files? and if so have you tried it out on the T2 disk?
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Old 02-01-2005, 10:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by gameboy
You guys are all bit short-sighted.

Although there are limited selection of WMRM based video, there are thousands of people who subscribe to WMA based music services (that serves hundreds of thousands of songs).

This crack may cause interruption in service for many of them...
It's worse than that:

"Panda Software warned earlier this week that hackers are using the player's DRM tool to fool people into downloading spyware and viruses."

The scary part:

"Microsoft has denied that an anti-piracy "feature" in its Windows Media Player that allows a Trojan horse to run on a user's PC is a vulnerability."

More at:
http://news.zdnet.co.uk/internet/sec...9184120,00.htm
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Old 02-01-2005, 10:49 PM
 
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anyone want to help me get the crap (aka DRM) off my T2 WMVHDs

I refuse to even bother with the disc if I have to mess with the POS interactual player (aka spyware) again
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Old 02-02-2005, 03:35 AM
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i'm gonna try it on my T2 Extreme WMV-HD later.

guys the issue here is that once a file is unprotected or not DRM it will be easily shared in the P2P world.

HDTV downloads has been on going for the past months already. 10 to 20 GB .ts files or .s files transcoded to xvid or WMV9 in .avi is very common already. File size is not a PROBLEM !!!!

Once T2 WMV-HD is unprotected it would be easy to transcode it to another format, like in xvid file with AC3 audio that would fit into a 4.7GB DVD-R

Same case with lots and lots of MUSIC files and videos and PORNO videos that are online DRMed, this crack would change a lot. Until now the only way to crack DRMed video was to capture it in the from the overlay or the directshow filters, which usually degraded the quality.
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Old 02-02-2005, 04:01 AM
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trailergod:
Actually, of all things, online pornos/audio are the safest as their license is always online generated and their servers could easy swap the DRM system (once microsoft releases a patch). Some past content would be vulnerable, but new content would be ok.

The sad thing is, microsoft better release a tool to automate updating of DRM code... you see these sites re-DRMing a million songs... talk about grunt work.

Yaron Gur
Zoom Player . Lead Developer
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Old 02-02-2005, 05:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by locomo

"Microsoft has denied that an anti-piracy "feature" in its Windows Media Player that allows a Trojan horse to run on a user's PC is a vulnerability."

More at:
http://news.zdnet.co.uk/internet/sec...9184120,00.htm
LOL,

Go to the police, with a trojan "attack" ?

"Victim":
- Officer, I got a trojan on my computer due to a MS "feature".

"Officer":
- Really ?
- Well I'll just put that at the bottom of the got-nothing-else-to-do pile.
- Now, go out and play.

21:st century Karate Kid......Logon, Logoff, Logon, Logoff..
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Old 02-02-2005, 05:30 AM
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hmm does this mean some of the DRM HD trailers at MS site could not be de-DRMed ? would be great to have them again :-)
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Old 02-02-2005, 05:50 AM
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from the guy who cracked it, I think he some very good points...

Quote:
MESSAGES:
I have included messages below for specific groups of people.

Users: Please respect the uses I have intended this software for. I
want to make a point with this software, and if you use it for
purposes of violating copyrights, the message stands a very good
chance of getting lost. Also, Microsoft is obviously going to
release patches to their media player in order to get around the
exploit in my software -- I think you'll be safe it you refuse
to upgrade from your current version of the Windows Media Player
(but see the warning above about "forced upgrades"). Unless they
want to sacrifice backward compatibility, you will at least be
able to work with your current (legally obtained) media files
for the near future.

Microsoft: You guys have put together a pretty good piece of
software. Really. The only real technical flaw is that
licenses can't be examined for their restrictions once they are
obtained. My real beef is with the media publishers' use of this
software, not the technology itself. However, it's easy to see
where software bloat and inefficiency comes from when this code
is examined: every main DLL has a separate copy of the elliptic
curve and other basic crypto routines, and parameters passed
back and forth between modules are encrypted giving unnecessary
overhead, not to mention all the checks of the code integrity,
checks for a debugger running, code encryption and decryption.
Perhaps you felt this was necessary for the "security through
obscurity" aspect, but I've got to tell you that this really
doesn't make a bit of difference. Make lean and mean code,
because the obscurity doesn't work as well as you think it does.
Also read the message below to the Justice Department!

Justice Department: Maybe this should really be addressed to the
state officials, since it looks like the current U.S.
administration doesn't care too much about monopoly powers being
abused. But for whoever is interested, there is a very serious
anti-competitive measure in this software. In particular, for
various modules of the software to be used, you must supply a
certified public key for communication. Guess who controls the
certification of public keys? Microsoft. So if someone wants
to make a competing product, which integrates well with the
Windows OS, you will need to get Microsoft's permission and
obtain a certificate from them. I don't know what their policy
is on this, so don't know if this power will be abused or not.
However, it has the potential for being a weapon Microsoft can
use to knock out any competition to their products.

Artists: Don't fear new distribution methods -- embrace them.
Technology is providing you the means to get your art directly
to consumers, avoiding the big record companies. They want a
piece of the action for YOUR creativity, and you don't need to
let them in on it any more. Your fans will treat you nicely,
unless you treat your fans poorly (take note of that Lars). Bo
Diddley didn't have anything to fear from his fans, but a lot to
fear from Leonard Chess. Think about that.

Publishers: Give us more options, not fewer. If you try to take
away our current rights, and dictate to us what we may or may
not do, you're going to get a lot of resistance. You better
find a way to play nicely soon, because technology is making it
possible for artists to make do without you at all. Try getting
some progressive thinkers into management -- current people
don't seem to be able to cope with the new environment that is
emerging.
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Old 02-02-2005, 07:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by trailergod
i'm gonna try it on my T2 Extreme WMV-HD later.

guys the issue here is that once a file is unprotected or not DRM it will be easily shared in the P2P world.

HDTV downloads has been on going for the past months already. 10 to 20 GB .ts files or .s files transcoded to xvid or WMV9 in .avi is very common already. File size is not a PROBLEM !!!!

Once T2 WMV-HD is unprotected it would be easy to transcode it to another format, like in xvid file with AC3 audio that would fit into a 4.7GB DVD-R

Same case with lots and lots of MUSIC files and videos and PORNO videos that are online DRMed, this crack would change a lot. Until now the only way to crack DRMed video was to capture it in the from the overlay or the directshow filters, which usually degraded the quality.
And what, transcoding to half (or less) the original size DOESN'T degrade the quality?

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do, see movies the way they were meant to be seen
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Old 02-02-2005, 08:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by stanger89
And what, transcoding to half (or less) the original size DOESN'T degrade the quality?
I'm not saying that I'm for transcoding, but depending ou your display device, the quality difference could be quite minimal (i.e. going from the 1080p source to an equivalent 720p on transcode).

However, I'm sure Tralergod is aware of the kind of artifacting created by piling DCT errors on top of one another causes.

Halstead York
Warning: Convergence in progress - technology, creativity & media, and where the twain shall meet.
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Old 02-02-2005, 08:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by stanger89
And what, transcoding to half (or less) the original size DOESN'T degrade the quality?
Any transcoding causes some lose in quality. But going from MPEG-2 to MPEG-4, can reduce the file size yet still maintain a very high level of picture quality. In some cases, the MPEG-4 HD clips I've seen stack up nicely against the original transport streams.
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