HDMI outputs will be on new PCs starting this fall for Blu-ray and HD-DVD playback - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 34 Old 03-02-2005, 04:13 PM - Thread Starter
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HDMI outputs will be seen on new PCs this fall and have been announced on both the HDMI website and Yahoo news. The two HDMI transmitters are the Sil 1930 and the Sil 1390. Both have HDMI (with HDCP) output and are capable of output from 25 MHz to 165 MHz. To my knowledge these are the first HDMI transmitters capable of 1080p at 60 fps output. Both transmitters will also be capable of outputting up to 8 channels of 24-bit/192-kHz PCM. The main difference between the two transmitters is that the Sil 1930 is capable of being put on a graphics card, while the Sil 1390 looks to be motherboard only. In addition to the two HDMi transmitter there will also be the Sil 1368, which is a DVI-HDCP transmitter.

Some bad news from these press releases is the indication that a HDCP output will be required for Blu-ray/HD-DVD playback. Not unexpected but will basically mean that all the computer display LCDs both sold and still being sold will not work with the new computers this fall.
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post #2 of 34 Old 03-02-2005, 04:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Richard Paul

Some bad news from these press releases is the indication that a HDCP output will be required for Blu-ray/HD-DVD playback. Not unexpected but will basically mean that all the computer display LCDs both sold and still being sold will not work with the new computers this fall.
I'm willing to bet the old monitors will work fine with these cards, as long as you don't want to play Blu-ray / HD-DVD content. On the plus side, my Samsung HLP "monitor" should work fine.

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post #3 of 34 Old 03-02-2005, 05:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally posted by g0blue
I'm willing to bet the old monitors will work fine with these cards, as long as you don't want to play Blu-ray / HD-DVD content. On the plus side, my Samsung HLP "monitor" should work fine.
I assumed that the HDMI output would always have HDCP activated but that may not be true. Still with Hollywood being the way it is they may decide that the HDCP mode on these chips must always be on.
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post #4 of 34 Old 03-02-2005, 05:22 PM
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I think that if your display supports HDCP, it will always be on. If not, it won't. However, the video player will be required to check if the HDCP connection is valid, otherwise, don't play the content. Just my guess...

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post #5 of 34 Old 03-02-2005, 05:27 PM
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All you'd have to do is use one of those DVI-HDCP to VGA converters and use the analog input of your monitor.

On the bright side, things are looking up WRT playing HD-DVD/BR on the PC. Now if they'll just let us rip them and stream then across the (local) network from my file server I'll be really happy.

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do,
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post #6 of 34 Old 03-02-2005, 05:30 PM
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If this is true I would imagine you may see a "AnyDVD" type program to bypass HDCP. It may not be there when the drives debut, but I imagine it's coming. It's getting more and more interesting all of the time. That's really the great thing about HTPCs. Standard change? Upgrade the drives and video cards.
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post #7 of 34 Old 03-03-2005, 05:45 AM
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I still find it amusing that these copy protection fanatics in Hollywood will allow full rez output via VGA but not component or DVI.... do they think Component or DVI capture is easier than RGB capture???????????

:D

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post #8 of 34 Old 03-03-2005, 07:37 AM
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I'm new and I got a question.

When these HD drives are available to purchase, they will only output through HDPC? So they will not output from my $230 6600 GT via DVI? And if it does output via DVI, will it be full rez?


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post #9 of 34 Old 03-03-2005, 09:15 AM
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It's looking like it will be a lot like macrovision is now. There were a few nVidia cards a while back (4 series IIRC) that didn't have macrovision encoders on the TV-out, so whenever you tried to play a MV protected DVD, it would disable the TV-out (or not play, can't remember which). Radeons with the HDTV adapter are similar, they won't let you play an MV protected DVD at >480p.

It will probably be similar with HD-DVD/BR and HDCP. If it does allow playback over non-HDCP DVI, it will probably be 480p max, potentially 1080p (source) downconverted to 480p and upconverted to your output res.

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do,
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post #10 of 34 Old 03-03-2005, 01:32 PM
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Is the DVI out on the ATI Radeon cards (i have 9600pro) HDCP compliant?? If not, does this mean that a blu-ray movie would not output from my HTPC to my Sammy DLP tv?

Will work for HTPC components.
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post #11 of 34 Old 03-03-2005, 01:59 PM
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Nothing (video card wise) out now is HDCP compliant.

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do,
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post #12 of 34 Old 03-03-2005, 04:05 PM
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I wonder if they support 30-bit (3x10) output of 1080p 24pfs, or even higher bandwith if used with reduced blanking. In that case I would view it as (potentialy) a major improvement over DVI. Otherwise, it will just be another otherwise unnecessary video card upgrade to get the ability to play HD content. I did a quick search for HDMI 1.1 specs, but nothing but a bunch of junk came out.

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post #13 of 34 Old 03-03-2005, 05:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by stanger89
All you'd have to do is use one of those DVI-HDCP to VGA converters and use the analog input of your monitor.
True, but Hollywood can stop the flow of illegal hardware pretty easily in the US. It is software over the internet that they have a problem with.


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Originally posted by jimwhite
I still find it amusing that these copy protection fanatics in Hollywood will allow full rez output via VGA but not component or DVI.... do they think Component or DVI capture is easier than RGB capture???????????
The thing is Hollywood may not allow VGA output, over 480p, for Blu-ray/HD-DVD, which is why HDMI/DVI-HDCP will be sold in new PCs this fall. Hollywood has seen what has happened with the RIAA and will most likely napalm every problem they see. And at the moment Hollywood sees analog outputs as the greatest problem of them all.


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Originally posted by stanger89
Nothing (video card wise) out now is HDCP compliant.
Ever since the ATI Radeon 9800 the DVI output on ATI video cards has been HDCP ready. This can be seen near the bottom of the list of features on new ATI video cards. I am guessing that HDCP output on these video cards can be activated through software.


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Originally posted by vpopovic
I wonder if they support 30-bit (3x10) output of 1080p 24pfs, or even higher bandwith if used with reduced blanking. In that case I would view it as (potentialy) a major improvement over DVI. Otherwise, it will just be another otherwise unnecessary video card upgrade to get the ability to play HD content. I did a quick search for HDMI 1.1 specs, but nothing but a bunch of junk came out.
The specs for HDMI can be downloaded here and it doesn't really matter what you type in the form. As for what HDMI can do it is mostly for audio but it can also output YCbCr at up to 12-bits. That is the same bit rate as RGB but would give excellent contrast compared to the current 8-bit YCbCr that is currently used for video encoding. Granted no format is planning to use more than 8-bit YCbCr but it sounds like a nice feature for future use.
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post #14 of 34 Old 03-03-2005, 05:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Richard Paul
Ever since the ATI Radeon 9800 the DVI output on ATI video cards has been HDCP ready. This can be seen near the bottom of the list of features on new ATI video cards. I am guessing that HDCP output on these video cards can be activated through software.
Interesting. Wonder how many other card's that's snuck on to.

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do,
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post #15 of 34 Old 03-03-2005, 08:38 PM
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Bye bye analog. This is big news, but sorta sad for those of us who prefer component over dvi or hdmi.
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post #16 of 34 Old 03-03-2005, 11:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by DrCrawn
Bye bye analog. This is big news, but sorta sad for those of us who prefer component over dvi or hdmi.
It is going to cause trouble in the PC world for a while, but technically HDMI/DVI does produce a better picture than component. Also the addition of HDMI to computers may help make PC game developers start producing games for HD resolutions such as 720p and 1080p. So in the long run HDMI may help with the convergence of computers and TV. There will unfortunately be a price for that and that will be DRM.
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post #17 of 34 Old 03-04-2005, 12:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Richard Paul
Ever since the ATI Radeon 9800 the DVI output on ATI video cards has been HDCP ready. This can be seen near the bottom of the list of features on new ATI video cards. I am guessing that HDCP output on these video cards can be activated through software.
I'm 101% sure this won't happen. Anything in software will do with a easy hack. If they're serious about the protection, it MUST be in hardware config.

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post #18 of 34 Old 03-04-2005, 12:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Richard Paul
So in the long run HDMI may help with the convergence of computers and TV. There will unfortunately be a price for that and that will be DRM.
Either that, or it will end as another dead in the water high-res format, ala SACD and DVD Audio. They really think that the public will happily buy a product that renders their monitors obsolete and places severe restrictions on use?!

A few geeks will buy it, then sales of content will be soft because there is not enough demand since most don't have or don't want to buy the hardware because of the limited content, and at the end it will be another great innovation killed by a bold, fat lawyer justifying his existence.
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post #19 of 34 Old 03-04-2005, 02:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by Li On
I'm 101% sure this won't happen. Anything in software will do with a easy hack. If they're serious about the protection, it MUST be in hardware config.
You may be right and that may be the reason the video card manufacturers aren't advertising it. If Hollywood doesn't consider the encyption to be good enough the HDCP capability on these video cards will never be used since they will never be allowed to output Blu-ray/HD-DVD. Still there is good software encryption since there are DVD-A software programs that no one has been able to crack.


Quote:
Originally posted by Ryan1
Either that, or it will end as another dead in the water high-res format, ala SACD and DVD Audio. They really think that the public will happily buy a product that renders their monitors obsolete and places severe restrictions on use?!
I have a TV/VCR that will not accept the signal from a DVD player because of Macrovision. Though it is irritating most DRM schemes are eventually accepted if they don't cause to many problems. Though HDMI may seem to be unnecessary the entire force of Hollywood is going to make it necessary. Though irritating the actual problems caused by HDMI will not be enough for people to reject it. As an example would you spend over a $1000 on a HDTV without a HDMI (or DVI-HDCP) input? Like Macrovision people will eventually accept HDMI.


Quote:
Originally posted by Ryan1
A few geeks will buy it, then sales of content will be soft because there is not enough demand since most don't have or don't want to buy the hardware because of the limited content, and at the end it will be another great innovation killed by a bold, fat lawyer justifying his existence.
There will be plenty of HD content over HDMI but Hollywood will begin to strangle the HD content over component video. They will allow for a few years of transition but 5 years from now I expect that cable/satellite HD will be HDMI only.
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post #20 of 34 Old 03-04-2005, 07:00 AM
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this is BIG new..... and I'm very happy.. coz this means HTPC will continue to live in the HD-DVD and BLUE RAY world...

I almost thought that they wont support any form of playback at all in the PC world... now at least in the digital form they will support us :-)

now... only time and cracks and tools to crack HDCP will come out... (not that is has not been crack it.. it's been cracked already but the tools are not yet open ) .. hehehehe
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post #21 of 34 Old 03-04-2005, 08:01 AM
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Thanks for the link to the specs. Looks like that chip does not support "native" 10-bit per component (30 bit RGB) input from GPU. HDMI 1.1 specs assume 24 bit RGB video input. Even if there is hardware support, ATI and Nvidia would have to provide driver support for this path. Chances are we'll still be stuck with 8-bit bottleneck in the chain, i.e. GPU will output 3x8=24 bit signal either due to HDMI hardware or driver limitations, then HDMI transmiter will upconvert that to 10-bit. That's too bad. I hope that Nvidia will work with the chip makers to make the second gen non-stop 3x10-bit.

It would be great if we could have the digital transport path that stays above 8-bit precision. 128 bit precision at GPU level, GPU downconverts and outputs 30 bit 4:4:4 signal directly to 30 bit HDMI, folowwed by 30 or 36 bit processing at display unit level. At the end this path would probably produce full 24 bit color resolution on screen.

By the way, this path is possible today via SDI with Quatro SDI cards. The only problem is that one is stuck with plasmas or smaller pro monitors that have SDI inputs, and that Quadro 4000 SDI costs some 5K. Definitely not worth it.

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post #22 of 34 Old 03-04-2005, 08:02 AM
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I think the next year or two will be painful, compatibility problems due to one side or the other not supporting DRM/encryption, not being able to burn recordings and such.

But it looks like once CPRM-compatible drives arive, and PC cards show up with HDCP support and such, things will be much more amiable.

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do,
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post #23 of 34 Old 03-05-2005, 05:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by vpopovic
Thanks for the link to the specs. Looks like that chip does not support "native" 10-bit per component (30 bit RGB) input from GPU. HDMI 1.1 specs assume 24 bit RGB video input. Even if there is hardware support, ATI and Nvidia would have to provide driver support for this path. Chances are we'll still be stuck with 8-bit bottleneck in the chain, i.e. GPU will output 3x8=24 bit signal either due to HDMI hardware or driver limitations, then HDMI transmiter will upconvert that to 10-bit. That's too bad. I hope that Nvidia will work with the chip makers to make the second gen non-stop 3x10-bit.
There is nothing today that delivers more than 8-bit RGB not even VGA or SDI. The 32-bit setting on PCs is 24-bits for RGB with 8-bits for alpha, which is used solely for processing and is never sent to the display. Even 12-bit YCbCr only has 24-bits for pixel which is why is has the same data rate as RGB.

I think the confusing element in HDMI/DVI is that they actually send each 8-bit data item as 10-bits. This is done for error correction and prevents most minor errors from being seen. Also if you look at the specs closely they send each 4-bits of audio data as 10-bits for even better error correction. This means that with HDMI you can have a sparkly picture with crystal clear audio. It is also done though because audio errors are far more noticeable than the occasional video error which will only affect a single pixel.
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post #24 of 34 Old 03-05-2005, 10:40 PM
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Though irritating the actual problems caused by HDMI will not be enough for people to reject it.
I'd be willing to bet it'll be more like, the actual benefits caused by HDMI will not be enough for people to accept it. Though AVSers are loathe to admit it, not just most people but even most HDTV owners are perfectly content with 480p DVD. Outside of this forum I've never met anyone who's made an effort to get real HDTV content or anyone who knows or cares that HD-DVD or Blu-ray are coming. Given the choice between upgrading expensive hardware to be HDCP compliant or sticking with 480p to keep using their existing hardware--almost everyone outside this forum and hardcore geekdom will happily stick with 480p.

This is another reason why HD-DVD and Blu-ray won't be replacing DVD for many many years--we'll see a market for the foreseeable future where the vast majority of people are still using DVD and a large percentage of the HD-DVD/Blu-ray users are watching at 480p to avoid HDCP-related upgrades.

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post #25 of 34 Old 03-05-2005, 11:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sergei Esenin
I'd be willing to bet it'll be more like, the actual benefits caused by HDMI will not be enough for people to accept it. Though AVSers are loathe to admit it, not just most people but even most HDTV owners are perfectly content with 480p DVD. Outside of this forum I've never met anyone who's made an effort to get real HDTV content or anyone who knows or cares that HD-DVD or Blu-ray are coming. Given the choice between upgrading expensive hardware to be HDCP compliant or sticking with 480p to keep using their existing hardware--almost everyone outside this forum and hardcore geekdom will happily stick with 480p.
The people who truly don't care about HDTV have only begun to buy them and their HDTVs will have HDMI or DVI-HDCP. The early adopters who cared about HD quality pictures are the ones with analog only HDTVs. Since they still care about HD most of them will upgrade their TVs sooner because of it. So in the end those who never cared that much about HD are the same ones who will never have to deal with the problem of HDCP compliance.

Though many people don't care that much about HD they will eventually begin to like it because they will see the difference. They may not actively search for it like people on this forum will but once Blu-ray players get cheap enough they will buy into it. In as little as 5 years half the households in the US will have HDTVs and those that don't will want one. I believe that by that time over half of all HDTV owners will have a Blu-ray player.

Quote:
Originally posted by Sergei Esenin
This is another reason why HD-DVD and Blu-ray won't be replacing DVD for many many years--we'll see a market for the foreseeable future where the vast majority of people are still using DVD and a large percentage of the HD-DVD/Blu-ray users are watching at 480p to avoid HDCP-related upgrades.
By the end of this year the majority of all HDTVs will have HDCP compliant inputs so over half of HDTVs in the US will not have a problems with Blu-ray. By the end of 2008 over 90% of all HDTVs will have HDCP compliant inputs and HDCP compliance will not be an issue by then. Personally I do not think it will take to long for Blu-ray to start outselling DVD but even if it does take 5 or more years it will not be related to HDCP compliance.
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post #26 of 34 Old 03-05-2005, 11:31 PM
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The people who truly don't care about HDTV have only begun to buy them and their HDTVs will have HDMI or DVI-HDCP. The early adopters who cared about HD quality pictures are the ones with analog only HDTVs. Since they still care about HD most of them will upgrade their TVs sooner because of it.
That's a nice theoretical thought, but it's simply not true in my practical experience--of the dozen or so people I know in real life who own HDTVs (none of which have HDMI, AFAIK), only one aside from me actually uses any HD programming. The rest just use SD cable/satellite and DVD. None of them would be interested in upgrading their HDTVs anytime soon, even when I mention the upcoming formats.

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Personally I do not think it will take to long for Blu-ray to start outselling DVD
You sir are an unbridled optimist. :D

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post #27 of 34 Old 03-07-2005, 10:09 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sergei Esenin
That's a nice theoretical thought, but it's simply not true in my practical experience--of the dozen or so people I know in real life who own HDTVs (none of which have HDMI, AFAIK), only one aside from me actually uses any HD programming. The rest just use SD cable/satellite and DVD. None of them would be interested in upgrading their HDTVs anytime soon, even when I mention the upcoming formats.
Most people need to see a format and what it can do before getting excited about it. That is why even the most impressive sounding computer game needs screenshots to really create interest.


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You sir are an unbridled optimist. :D
Perhaps, but even optimists are sometimes right.
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post #28 of 34 Old 03-07-2005, 11:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Richard Paul
...The people who truly don't care about HDTV have only begun to buy them and their HDTVs will have HDMI or DVI-HDCP. The early adopters who cared about HD quality pictures are the ones with analog only HDTVs. Since they still care about HD most of them will upgrade their TVs sooner because of it. So in the end those who never cared that much about HD are the same ones who will never have to deal with the problem of HDCP compliance.
Ah, but they will have to deal with the problem of HDCP compliance: HDCP is implemented not to improve the picture quality on your big screen plasma, but to allow the content provider to enforce various restrictions. Wait until Joe Public realizes that the football game he recorded a month ago and is trying to show to his buddies today is scrambled because the content provider imposed a time limit on his recording.

You show me a single format with a high level of consumer restrictions that has succeeded. I know that DVDA, SACD, DVIX, DVDs that disintegrate after three days etc. are the holly grays of Hollywood, but the public is not THAT stupid (or rather, they are too lazy to deal with the hassle of the restrictions).

And this is before you factor in the screwing of the early adopters for no valid technical reason. Come to think of it, HDCP will actually make "criminals" of most of the early adopters the moment it is reasonably easily cracked (and it WILL be), since I really doubt most will run out and spend the equivalent of a used car on equipment which is NOT significantly better than their current one.

At a time not so long ago, the VCR was the bane of the content gatekeepers and was going to ruin their world in the hands of the thieving public. Hi-res consumer technology is a decade behind because of them. Phew:D
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post #29 of 34 Old 03-08-2005, 07:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ryan1
Ah, but they will have to deal with the problem of HDCP compliance: HDCP is implemented not to improve the picture quality on your big screen plasma, but to allow the content provider to enforce various restrictions. Wait until Joe Public realizes that the football game he recorded a month ago and is trying to show to his buddies today is scrambled because the content provider imposed a time limit on his recording.

You show me a single format with a high level of consumer restrictions that has succeeded. I know that DVDA, SACD, DVIX, DVDs that disintegrate after three days etc. are the holly grays of Hollywood, but the public is not THAT stupid (or rather, they are too lazy to deal with the hassle of the restrictions).

And this is before you factor in the screwing of the early adopters for no valid technical reason. Come to think of it, HDCP will actually make "criminals" of most of the early adopters the moment it is reasonably easily cracked (and it WILL be), since I really doubt most will run out and spend the equivalent of a used car on equipment which is NOT significantly better than their current one.

At a time not so long ago, the VCR was the bane of the content gatekeepers and was going to ruin their world in the hands of the thieving public. Hi-res consumer technology is a decade behind because of them. Phew:D
Agreed. Joe Public may not know jack about HDTVs, HTPCs, etc, but they always seem to know when someone's trying to pull the wool over their eyes.

Let Hollywood have their way right now, which is good because it at least gets BR/HD-DVD drives in PCs. And then give it a little time for HDCP to be added to AnyDVD and DVDIdle, because we all know it will.

My set's DVI input is HDCP compliant, but I prefer my HTPC to be connected to it via component, to me it looks better and I can play with the timings better. And if using a hack to keep my setup the way it is makes me a criminal, so be it.

Currently testing 3D with Sammy DLP, shutter glasses, and HTPC
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post #30 of 34 Old 03-08-2005, 09:03 AM
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The very fact that they are attaching the technology to PCs is already resigning to the fact it's gonna get hacked. There is no way around it. I think the decision is based purely on monetary gain. I wonder how much the DVD-ROM/R/RW drives increased DVD sales ultimately. I would imagine quite a bit. Makes those available to PC owners, and again you will see an increase in sales on the HD-DVD, BR software side.

Additionally, since most monitors are capable of HD resolutions, it makes sense to make these available to PC users. Hell, you are talking about millions and millions of already installed HD capable display devices. That alone makes the downside of the hacks minimal. Additionally, the new storage mediums with their heavy capacity will really encourage purchase of the players and media once the R/RW side of things kicks in.

Overall, I think it shows one thing. That piracy, etc, eats into profits on one side, it's not nearly as damaging as these organizations make it out to be. Companies do things for profit, and the profit gained by allowing PC users access to the new formats far outweighs the potential downside.
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