New Unofficial DSCALER5 with 3:2 Pulldown for 1080i - Page 12 - AVS Forum
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post #331 of 342 Old 12-14-2011, 07:50 AM
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It looks like we're focusing on two entirely separate issues. The one I'm talking about is significantly more serious issue; making the video unwatchable. However, both issues are related to 3:2 pulldown. Dscaler removing 3:2 pulldown eliminates both issues luckily.

I have always heard of 3:2 pulldown judder, but never noticed it before. When I played my TV content on dscaler, I could see that video looked incredibly smooth and fluid; even more fluid than anything any of my display cards have ever done. However, I didn't know why. Now I know. madshi, I can't thank you enough for giving me the chance to experience film content in cable HDTV broadcasts in it's purest, original form... 24.000fps. If dscaler could also restore film framerate on 720p HDTV broadcasts as well, I would really be nice. But, I'm much better off than I was before; and, I have you to thank for!

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Originally Posted by madshi View Post

Well, heavy stutter like this is a different problem from the 3:2 judder.


I don't think so. Both NVidia and AMD are pretty much using the same IVTC algorithms on all their cards. They're cutting them down a bit for entry models sometimes, but the basic 3:2 handling is the same on all cards, as far as I know. I rather think that those people who have stuttering and those that don't have some differences in the configuration or driver versions or whatever.

Anyway, I don't think 3:2 judder is acceptable, so none of these cards cut it for me on their own. If you didn't notice the 3:2 pulldown judder, that's probably because you were used to it. Once you've got used to smooth motion without 3:2 pulldown judder, there's no going back. We here in Europe are not used to 3:2 judder at all, maybe that's why it stands out more to most of us.


Can your HTPC Media Center / DVR Do this??

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post #332 of 342 Old 12-14-2011, 09:40 AM
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Are these problems(3:2 pulldown/judder etc.) apparent on cable/sattelite dvr's as well or just htpc's.

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post #333 of 342 Old 12-14-2011, 10:39 AM
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Joeydrunk, all cableboxes and cheap extender media playback devices that I know have 3:2 judder on 60hz based american TVs. However, most people don't even notice this effect in America.

The OTHER problem I'm talking about that affects some premium TV channels is NOT 3:2 judder. The stuttering is so bad, you can't possibly watch the TV channel that way.

Some newer LCD TV's in america have optional video processing to reduce video judder. However, if this video processing effect is turned up too high, the side effect is known to most people as the "Soap opera effect". This 3:2 smooth video processing is still not as good as the 3:2 pulldown removal technique using dscaler IVTC mod. However, it's still pretty effective.

To sum up, you can either use cableTV boxes or use a PC that has one of the below display cards with your cablecard TV solution. You can reduce 3:2 pulldown judder with any good modern LCD TV with 3:2 judder smoothing (for example, on Samsung TVs, this processing is called "Automotion Plus judder reduction")

NVIDIA
GeForce 8500 GT / 8600GT / 8600 GTS
GeForce 9300
GeForce 9400 (including ION platforms)
GeForce GT 430
GeForce GT 440 (same core as 430)

ATI Radeon HD 4200
Radeon HD 4550
Radeon HD 4650
Radeon HD 5450 with Dynamic Contrast Adjustment turned off
Radeon HD 6850

Intel

Core i3 (Clarkdale)


Quote:
Originally Posted by joeydrunk View Post

Are these problems(3:2 pulldown/judder etc.) apparent on cable/sattelite dvr's as well or just htpc's.


Can your HTPC Media Center / DVR Do this??

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post #334 of 342 Old 12-14-2011, 10:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKANET View Post

Joeydrunk, all cableboxes and cheap extender media playback devices that I know have 3:2 judder on 60hz based american TVs. However, most people don't even notice this effect in America.

The OTHER problem I'm talking about that affects some premium TV channels is NOT 3:2 judder. The stuttering is so bad, you can't possibly watch the TV channel that way.

Some newer LCD TV's in america have optional video processing to reduce video judder. However, if this video processing effect is turned up too high, the side effect is known to most people as the "Soap opera effect". This 3:2 smooth video processing is still not as good as the 3:2 pulldown removal technique using dscaler. However, it's still pretty effective.

To sum up, you can either use cableTV boxes or use a PC that has one of the below display cards with your cablecard TV solution. You can reduce 3:2 pulldown judder with any good modern LCD TV with 3:2 judder smoothing.

NVIDIA

GeForce 8500 GT / 8600GT / 8600 GTS
GeForce 9300
GeForce 9400 (including ION platforms)
GeForce GT 430
GeForce GT 440 (same core as 430)
ATI Radeon HD 4200


Radeon HD 4550
Radeon HD 4650
Radeon HD 5450 with Dynamic Contrast Adjustment turned off
Radeon HD 6850

Intel

Core i3 (Clarkdale)

What's wrong with the Geforce gtx460? Thanks by the way for the info, I appreciate it. What makes the cards, and others not, you listed work for these problems?

Pioneer Kuro...your time is up...mwahahhahhha
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post #335 of 342 Old 12-14-2011, 12:14 PM
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It's possible that nobody has tried to play this content with your card yet. The list of cards mentioned are the only ones that are confirmed to not have an issue with this type of content. There is an easy way to find out.. Send me a private message and I'll send you links to some sample videos.

There is something very strange about some of the premium TV channels' video encoding formats. They encode their video in an unusual fashion which causes the video card to switch framerates abruptly in the same movie or TV show! Ive witnessed this personally... (my Reclock utility was showing the video switching between 23.976fps, 29.97fps, 47.952fps, and even 59.940fps with any mpeg2 decoder with hardware acceleration enabled). This is obviously not what a normal video card would expect. The display cards in the list can handle switching between these framerates and respective decoding methods (soft/hard telecine) abruptly.

Dscaler is able to do something that no other mpeg2 decoder can. It correctly detects the type of video it really is; and, removes extra 3:2 pulldown frames completely to restore the entire video as a stable 23.976fps video. This will eliminate any problems that can be caused by 3:2 pulldown... both this problem AND 3:2 pulldown judder as well!

Hopefully some of this made some sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by joeydrunk View Post

What's wrong with the Geforce gtx460? Thanks by the way for the info, I appreciate it. What makes the cards, and others not, you listed work for these problems?


Can your HTPC Media Center / DVR Do this??

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post #336 of 342 Old 12-14-2011, 02:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKANET View Post

It's possible that nobody has tried to play this content with your card yet. The list of cards mentioned are the only ones that are confirmed to not have an issue with this type of content. There is an easy way to find out.. Send me a private message and I'll send you links to some sample videos.

There is something very strange about some of the premium TV channels' video encoding formats. They encode their video in an unusual fashion which causes the video card to switch framerates abruptly in the same movie or TV show! Ive witnessed this personally... (my Reclock utility was showing the video switching between 23.976fps, 29.97fps, 47.952fps, and even 59.940fps with any mpeg2 decoder with hardware acceleration enabled). This is obviously not what a normal video card would expect. The display cards in the list can handle switching between these framerates and respective decoding methods (soft/hard telecine) abruptly.

Dscaler is able to do something that no other mpeg2 decoder can. It correctly detects the type of video it really is; and, removes extra 3:2 pulldown frames completely to restore the entire video as a stable 23.976fps video. This will eliminate any problems that can be caused by 3:2 pulldown... both this problem AND 3:2 pulldown judder as well!

Hopefully some of this made some sense.

Yeah it does, thanks. Il pm you.

Pioneer Kuro...your time is up...mwahahhahhha
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post #337 of 342 Old 12-15-2011, 06:50 AM
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It's been a while since I tried this decoder, so I gave it a spin again last night. It still has the same problem, it can't properly switch IVTC on/off when the video changes from film to video.

Many shows on CBS require IVTC during the show part, but the commercials are video. If you use this decoder, it will switch into IVTC during the show, but gets stuck there. So it doesn't turn IVTC off during commercials. This causes terrible deinterlacing issues during commercials.

I don't really watch commercials, but my in-laws do. It drives me nuts that they watch TV live in the first place, but being forced to see the commercials with horrible deinterlacing would make me loose my mind.

Like I said earlier in this thread, my GTX 460 with driver 258.96 works fine. It fails the w6rz IVTC tests, but it looks fine with these CBS shows.

I watched reclock last night with the cyberlink decoder. With cyberlink, it's a little slower to switch into 24 fps than dscaler w/ivtc when it transitions from commercial to show, but it immediately switches back to 29.97 at the commercial break.

I've noticed that the framerate in ffdshow immediately reflects the change from commercial (29.97) -> show (24) and back the opposite way. So, I may try out e-t172 filter, and maybe I can hook into ffdshow's existing framerate to enable/disable his IVTC filter.

I tried to modify the source of this dscaler ivtc decoder before to better detect the transitions, but I couldn't find the proper information in the stream to do it right.
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post #338 of 342 Old 12-15-2011, 09:11 AM
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You actually watch the commercials? I dont see commercials since my stuff is DVR'ed.

BTW: I could never get e-t172's version of ffdshow to work. Im curious if it's possible to do realtime avisynth IVTC in ffdshow using something like decomb. That's the only other way I can think of to have a more robust solution. I just posted on Doom9's AVISynch sub-forum inquiring about this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by boiler11 View Post

It's been a while since I tried this decoder, so I gave it a spin again last night. It still has the same problem, it can't properly switch IVTC on/off when the video changes from film to video.

Many shows on CBS require IVTC during the show part, but the commercials are video. If you use this decoder, it will switch into IVTC during the show, but gets stuck there. So it doesn't turn IVTC off during commercials. This causes terrible deinterlacing issues during commercials.

I don't really watch commercials, but my in-laws do. It drives me nuts that they watch TV live in the first place, but being forced to see the commercials with horrible deinterlacing would make me loose my mind.

Like I said earlier in this thread, my GTX 460 with driver 258.96 works fine. It fails the w6rz IVTC tests, but it looks fine with these CBS shows.

I watched reclock last night with the cyberlink decoder. With cyberlink, it's a little slower to switch into 24 fps than dscaler w/ivtc when it transitions from commercial to show, but it immediately switches back to 29.97 at the commercial break.

I've noticed that the framerate in ffdshow immediately reflects the change from commercial (29.97) -> show (24) and back the opposite way. So, I may try out e-t172 filter, and maybe I can hook into ffdshow's existing framerate to enable/disable his IVTC filter.

I tried to modify the source of this dscaler ivtc decoder before to better detect the transitions, but I couldn't find the proper information in the stream to do it right.


Can your HTPC Media Center / DVR Do this??

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post #339 of 342 Old 12-16-2011, 11:26 PM
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I just spent almost two full days of trial and error to see what's the best possible quality for playing back cableTV on Media Centers solutions:

1. FFDshow+avisynth+decomb= FAIL!
I tried going the ffdshow+avisynth IVTC/deinterlace route. It looks like there's a bug in ffdshow which doesnt let avisynth IVTC plugins to receive soft-telecine video from ffdshow's internal mpeg2 decoders. The only way it works is in Virtualdub.

2. FFdshow (special build from "et172" with IVTC capability)= FAIL!
I was very hopeful this would work. It does do 3:2 pulldown removal for both soft and hard telecine to convert video to 23.976fps. However, it causes serious interlaced combing artifacts; and, native deinterlacing options in ffdshow dont work with this build. I even went as far as to use avisynth deinterlacing with ffdshow native IVTC; however, the video was very slow with many missing frames with both IVTC and deinterlacing. Even if it did work, when doing too much trickplay (fastfoward/rewind), the directshow player thats being used crashes.

Unless ffdshow's problem can be fixed in a future ffdshow build, the best possible quality by far I can get is the dscaler IVTC mpeg2 mod set to:
3:2 playback smoothing=off
Inverse Telecine=Always Enable
Adjust FPS in Any Telecined film= 23.976/24.000
Output colorspace=YUY2 (YV12 causes video distortion in 720p video)
Force Field 1 Flag=enabled

This allows me to watch alll my TV show series at the best possible quality of it's original 24fps. My TV actually does frame interpolation to the equivalent of 72fps (creating new frames in between).

Since I use reclock to change my TV's refresh rate to 24.000hz to match 24fps, its actually desirable for me to keep the framerate consistent during commercials so my TV doesnt have to change refresh rates abruptly before and after commercials.

The ONLY draw back is 1080i video content (late night TV/news) is not using that great of a deinterlacing techique; which has a noticable loss in picture quality. To some people that might be unacceptable; howeer, since my TV viewing is focused 90% on TV shows and movies, I really can't complain. It's certainly preferable over anything my video card could do; even if it was able to handle soft-telecine switching.

All-in-all, after all these years, this decoder is still the best mpeg2 decoder for film content on TV; which is the majority of stuff that I watch.

I reallly wish I had found out about the dscaler IVTC mod decoder sooner!

Can your HTPC Media Center / DVR Do this??

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post #340 of 342 Old 03-12-2012, 04:46 AM
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Does anybody have the source files for the latest DScaler 5 IVTC mod?

I'm considering havinga nother bash at integrating this and it would be good to have the latest code.

Cheers

John

My Company - Upsilon Software
Free Projects - DScaler & hcfr fork
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post #341 of 342 Old 03-12-2012, 05:16 AM
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Not sure if I have the latest, but I have at least "some" version not too old. Well, it's old, but the whole project/thread is old, so. Just send me an email...
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post #342 of 342 Old 03-12-2012, 05:22 AM
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Madshi

Thanks, looks like there is a version of the code in this post from 2007, not sure if it's the latest or if there are further fixes floating around.

John

My Company - Upsilon Software
Free Projects - DScaler & hcfr fork
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