Audio Processing in Vista Explained - Page 16 - AVS Forum
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post #451 of 971 Old 10-29-2006, 09:27 PM
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ub4b


You need to use the in box drivers that come with vista for the realtek audio codec.

roll back the driver you installed from realtek's website and then you should see a room correction tab under the speakers options.
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post #452 of 971 Old 11-02-2006, 12:46 AM
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Originally Posted by ub4b View Post

Do you know whhich steps to follow to calibrate speakers in Vista ? I've been looking for hours but I didn't find it. As long as this doesn't work it's hard to know the improvements.

The latest RealTek drivers for Vista have their own room correction & is not the one in Vista.

As had been mentioned in the introduction the Vista audio effects are associated with in box class drivers but we are enabling audio IHV's to use/expose the Vista audio effects in their drivers. This is to ensure that there is no deprecation of in-box functionality when in-box class drivers are substituted with 3rd party drivers. Realtek has chosen to expose a few of the in-box audio effects & complemented it with their own set of effects.

In this case Realtek have chosen to offer their own room correction which does not seem to have an automatic calibration but requires the relative speaker distances to be entered manually. We are working with them to clearly identify the provider of each audio effect under the Enhancement tab.
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post #453 of 971 Old 11-02-2006, 12:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ub4b View Post

Do you know whhich steps to follow to calibrate speakers in Vista ? I've been looking for hours but I didn't find it. As long as this doesn't work it's hard to know the improvements.

Perhaps I am not understanding, but it appears from your comment above that you used the wizard, which showed you gain and delay results.

If you did, in fact, get to see gain and delay results, you have managed to run the right wizard, and you have calculated not only gain and delay, but also (depending on how you set the "good microphone" box) either relative (among channels for regular mike) or absolute frequency response equalization (for "good mike") as well as first reflection compensation if such was detected. There is no UI to show you the frequency EQ or the first-reflection EQ, however if you got to the point where gain and delay are shown, the EQ has also been calculated, and if you clicked on apply and turned on room correction, you are there.

Edited to add:
Hmm, as I see above, perhaps you are running into a RealTek function rather than our class driver functions. If it is not automatic after you plug in a microphone, then you may be right, you may have some 3rd party room-correction.

James D. (jj) Johnston
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post #454 of 971 Old 11-02-2006, 02:35 PM
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jj_0001 -

I'm sure you guys are swamped - but could you give me some insight into how I'd approach getting Sigmatel drivers that work in RC2 before waiting for them to be released by Intel for their D975xbx motherboard? In particular I'd like to get digital out again through the onboard audio. There seems to be no information whatsoever on this anywhere, barring the distinct lack of information. Some sigmatel chipsets work (apparently the 965 based boards get optical out - Elemental1 posted screenshots of this function being exposed) but I'm lucky to get analogue out with the UAA drivers. Installing the Dolby Master Studio drivers for XP in compatibility mode wrecks the onboard sound completely.

Thanks for anyone's input on this one.
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post #455 of 971 Old 11-02-2006, 03:19 PM
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Here is a pic of the Creative XFi console under Vista RC2. A lot of the standard Vista config does not seem to work, only through the console.
LL

My HT

In the words of English philosopher Edmund Burke, ÂAll that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.Â
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post #456 of 971 Old 11-04-2006, 01:43 PM
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Hello,

I finally managed to get Vista audio correction apply. I actually found a driver for my Audiotrak prodigy 7.1 LT that works well in Vista. This driver was developped by a single student .
It happens here: -- I cannot post URL yet I need 5 posts --
(look for the post entitled : "Simon learns how to write drivers").

Because my microphone is very bad (the one of a logitech 4000 pro webcam - I plan to purchase a Berhinger ECM8000), the room correction wizard was not able to calculate delays but he did calculate volume and eq corrections.

So my equipement is an Audiotrak Prodigy 7.1LT (Via Envy 24HT) connected to an 8 channel Tripath chip amplifier, connected to Boston CR65 speakers + center + sub.

Although this is not my main installation, I still can hear some audio differences from Vista effects.

In summary (tests were done on a stereo signal):

- Room correction: although my microphone is very bad, I found DRC being not much destructive on the original signal which is a good start (more when I have a better mike).
- Loudness: I am not fond of such effects. I noticed that the volume is raised a lot when activated and the signal contour is increased.
- Speaker fill: I liked this one because it is very smooth an does not destroy the original stereo signal
- Bass management: this one is not very good because 1) some signal definition seems to get lost in the process, and 2) the signal volume is decreased significantly which makes is not easy to use: you need to increase the volume when you apply it and decrease the volume after

REMARK: this tests where done with a beta driver so maybe the issues mentioned above are the fault of the driver...

One last remark: be sure to close and restart WMP11 between each effect change or you will hear no difference (unfortunately)
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post #457 of 971 Old 11-04-2006, 04:16 PM
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One question:

How do I enable speaker fill on the analogue input (i.e. on TV audio from the set top box), but not on stereo playback from WMP11?
When I look at enhancements available on the analogue input recording device, speaker fill is not available (only available effets for this recording device: LF protection, virtual surround, room correction, and loudness)
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post #458 of 971 Old 11-07-2006, 03:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NFC View Post

Hello,

I finally managed to get Vista audio correction apply. I actually found a driver for my Audiotrak prodigy 7.1 LT that works well in Vista. This driver was developped by a single student .
It happens here: -- I cannot post URL yet I need 5 posts --
(look for the post entitled : "Simon learns how to write drivers").

Because my microphone is very bad (the one of a logitech 4000 pro webcam - I plan to purchase a Berhinger ECM8000), the room correction wizard was not able to calculate delays but he did calculate volume and eq corrections.

Hm. You didn't check the "good microphone" box, did you? You should still be able to get delays, that process is generally extremely robust. What kind of message did you get? (I don't recall ever being unable to get delays except in very, very unpleasant settings, so this is somewhat of an extraordinary result. You may want to try it again, perhaps making sure you don't MOVE the mike too much while you're measuring.)
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- Room correction: although my microphone is very bad, I found DRC being not much destructive on the original signal which is a good start (more when I have a better mike).

A standard cheap cardoid, pointed straight up while you do the calibration, ought to do a decent job when you don't have the "good mic" box set. You should certainly get time delays, as well as gain and EQ, at least in most cases. If you have bipolar back speakers, you might see some issues with time delay, but our experience has been that time delay capture is extremely robust. If you have a successful train (which we have gotten in very noisy rooms with very bad speakers), you should hear stereo imaging, and 5.1 imaging both snap in solid from the position you're sitting at for starters.
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- Loudness: I am not fond of such effects. I noticed that the volume is raised a lot when activated and the signal contour is increased.

This feature is not generally intended for high-quality music. Try it when you want to listen at night (with the level reduced a lot), or when you're switching between TV (analog) and TV (digital) channels. For pure (good) audio playback, its primary use is to keep up articulation and the ability to hear the signal when you need to play back quietly and/or when you are playing back into very noisy settings.

I think if you try it at low levels, or in a noisy room, you'll find it very handy. It surely is not intended for use when you have a good listening situation and dynamic music.
Quote:



- Speaker fill: I liked this one because it is very smooth an does not destroy the original stereo signal

Thank you, it's supposed to be gentle, and unobtrusive, more "real" than flash.
Quote:



- Bass management: this one is not very good because 1) some signal definition seems to get lost in the process, and 2) the signal volume is decreased significantly which makes is not easy to use: you need to increase the volume when you apply it and decrease the volume after

Aside from the gain change, which you must use in order to avoid digital clipping on highly energetic material, did you hear any problem? Did you set the crossover frequency appropriately for your speakers? You may want to check the default settings and vary them for your particular speakers, as well as consider if you want the "big room" or "small room" settings. Also, don't forget to try the "inverted subwoofer" setting. Bass management has many options, we must have it work from laptop speakers to full-range speakers plus subwoofer, and there is no way to make a universal default.
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One last remark: be sure to close and restart WMP11 between each effect change or you will hear no difference (unfortunately)

Indeed, this is a feature that is hard to avoid.

James D. (jj) Johnston
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post #459 of 971 Old 11-07-2006, 03:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NFC View Post

One question:

How do I enable speaker fill on the analogue input (i.e. on TV audio from the set top box), but not on stereo playback from WMP11?
When I look at enhancements available on the analogue input recording device, speaker fill is not available (only available effets for this recording device: LF protection, virtual surround, room correction, and loudness)

Speaker fill will only function on sound that is processed via the digital chain. It is a digital process, operating within the CPU. If your analog input simply passes through as analog, there is no way to see the data, let alone process it, in the digital chain.

If you can get digital audio from a tuner card, you should be able to get speaker fill.

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post #460 of 971 Old 11-08-2006, 08:19 PM
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I think it's important for Microsoft to consider this feature for bass management drivers:

ONe should be able to specifiy different bass management options depending on the source software involved. For Example: my music playback software should be played in bit-perfect output with no bass management features enabled. My windvd software should trigger full bass management features if I am sending out the output via analog. Personally as long as a receiver is still needed, I think the bass management features won't be fully utilized.

Ultimately one should be able to hook a high-fidelity soundcard directly to an amplifier and be satisfied with the results. Even an outboard USB soundcard would be a good bet.

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post #461 of 971 Old 11-08-2006, 10:42 PM
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Originally Posted by blazar View Post

I think it's important for Microsoft to consider this feature for bass management drivers:

ONe should be able to specifiy different bass management options depending on the source software involved. For Example: my music playback software should be played in bit-perfect output with no bass management features enabled. My windvd software should trigger full bass management features if I am sending out the output via analog. Personally as long as a receiver is still needed, I think the bass management features won't be fully utilized.

Ultimately one should be able to hook a high-fidelity soundcard directly to an amplifier and be satisfied with the results. Even an outboard USB soundcard would be a good bet.

I agree, it would be great if this feature were user configurable. I could also see where someone with a surround sound speaker setup who used smaller bookshelf type speakers for the main front left and right channels, could benefit from bass management that would let you configure a 2.1 system with the subwoofer getting all low frequency signals (crossover frequency user configurable as well).

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post #462 of 971 Old 11-09-2006, 11:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blazar View Post

I think it's important for Microsoft to consider this feature for bass management drivers:

ONe should be able to specifiy different bass management options depending on the source software involved. For Example: my music playback software should be played in bit-perfect output with no bass management features enabled. My windvd software should trigger full bass management features if I am sending out the output via analog. Personally as long as a receiver is still needed, I think the bass management features won't be fully utilized.

Ultimately one should be able to hook a high-fidelity soundcard directly to an amplifier and be satisfied with the results. Even an outboard USB soundcard would be a good bet.

You can certainly turn bass management on and off via the control panel.

Presently, you'll have to turn it on and off manually.

James D. (jj) Johnston
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post #463 of 971 Old 11-09-2006, 11:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greggplummer View Post

I agree, it would be great if this feature were user configurable. I could also see where someone with a surround sound speaker setup who used smaller bookshelf type speakers for the main front left and right channels, could benefit from bass management that would let you configure a 2.1 system with the subwoofer getting all low frequency signals (crossover frequency user configurable as well).

There is some difficulty in arranging user interfaces for people with 2-channel systems that have subwoofers. The great majority of such systems have built-in crossovers, and a number of people were afraid that such systems would confuse the average (not the user here) user into setting things up the wrong way. If you have a multichannel sound card and a 2-channel system, you can set the system up to multichannel, phantom out the speakers you don't have, and that should enable the bass management for you. (I don't have such a system at my desk presently, though, but I believe that works.) There is a great deal of tension involved in making a UI for most people, rather than you and I, who are not only willing to set everything, but who WANT TO.

Crossover frequency is certainly user-configurable if you have bass management exposed and operating, by the way. It has to be user configurable, we can easily find situations where the crossover setting needs to be 40Hz, and ones where it needs to be 200Hz, in order to properly protect the speakers involved. There's no option but to make it adjustable.

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post #464 of 971 Old 11-09-2006, 12:04 PM
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Hm. You didn't check the "good microphone" box, did you? You should still be able to get delays, that process is generally extremely robust. What kind of message did you get? (I don't recall ever being unable to get delays except in very, very unpleasant settings, so this is somewhat of an extraordinary result. You may want to try it again, perhaps making sure you don't MOVE the mike too much while you're measuring.)

I tried again. Same results. I even changed the position of the central speaker that was behind the monitor in order for it be in direct line of sight of the microphone.

I am getting the following message:
"Unable to get consistent delay measurements.
Make sure the microphone is held steady in one spot.
This may also be caused by audio dropouts and glitches."

The microphone is put on the top of my chair at my ear levels (and I step away of the room during the test), so it is steady.

Then I continue the process. Eventually I get the following parameters:
Levels (L,R, C, Sub, LR, RR): 0.11, 0.17, 0.05, 1.00, 0.15, 1.00
and zeros for the delays.

Quote:


Aside from the gain change, which you must use in order to avoid digital clipping on highly energetic material, did you hear any problem? Did you set the crossover frequency appropriately for your speakers? You may want to check the default settings and vary them for your particular speakers, as well as consider if you want the "big room" or "small room" settings. Also, don't forget to try the "inverted subwoofer" setting. Bass management has many options, we must have it work from laptop speakers to full-range speakers plus subwoofer, and there is no way to make a universal default.

Regarding bass management, I was at 80Hz cut frequency. I will try it again this week end and give you the results. Anyway, I am not sure I understand your statement relative to clipping. I am currently using dayly Voxengo BMS (an ASIO VST effect), and switching it on/off just toggles the bass management without changing the volume (which would be annoying if it changed because it would require a manual volume adjustment each time - and in the switch back it would produce a bad suprise with the volume getting to high suddently ).

In my current ASIO based installation, I have the following effects that I can toogle on/off with my IR remote: Voxengo BMS (the bass management effect), and SRS Circlesound (the fill effect). Eventually, I would like to have the same flexibility with Vista effects instead of my Asio installation. Is it possible to change the effects on the fly without needing to go into the menus? Are there direct keyboard shortcuts?
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post #465 of 971 Old 11-09-2006, 12:15 PM
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Here is the link I mentioned where one can find early versions of the Audiotrak prodigy drivers I am using

Simon learns how to write drivers
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post #466 of 971 Old 11-09-2006, 01:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jj_0001 View Post

There is some difficulty in arranging user interfaces for people with 2-channel systems that have subwoofers. The great majority of such systems have built-in crossovers, and a number of people were afraid that such systems would confuse the average (not the user here) user into setting things up the wrong way. If you have a multichannel sound card and a 2-channel system, you can set the system up to multichannel, phantom out the speakers you don't have, and that should enable the bass management for you. (I don't have such a system at my desk presently, though, but I believe that works.) There is a great deal of tension involved in making a UI for most people, rather than you and I, who are not only willing to set everything, but who WANT TO.

Crossover frequency is certainly user-configurable if you have bass management exposed and operating, by the way. It has to be user configurable, we can easily find situations where the crossover setting needs to be 40Hz, and ones where it needs to be 200Hz, in order to properly protect the speakers involved. There's no option but to make it adjustable.

The scenario I was talking about would be for someone who has a multichannel surround setup, like 5.1 or 7.1, and they want to play stereo music from just 2 speakers (normal stereo playback). So the multichannel soundcard is still connected to a 5.1 or 7.1 system. However, all of their speakers are bookshelf type 2-ways with limited bass extension. So, when they play 2 channel music, they would like to send low frequencies to their subwoofer.

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post #467 of 971 Old 11-09-2006, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by NFC View Post

IThen I continue the process. Eventually I get the following parameters:
Levels (L,R, C, Sub, LR, RR): 0.11, 0.17, 0.05, 1.00, 0.15, 1.00
and zeros for the delays.

The 1.0 for the last speaker looks extremely odd. Are you standing in front of that speaker? Is it facing the mike? Is it broken? (N.B. you will always get 1.0 for the sub, and you will get 1.0 for one other speaker, the one that is providing the least energy to the mic, but seeing coeff's like .05 next to it suggest that something is not working the way its supposed to.

The coefficients you show are very extreme, and suggest that the last speaker in the list, for some reason, is very, very much farther away, pointed the wrong way, or something. Try the "speaker test" on each speaker, you should find that it sounds at least audible and reasonable for each of the speakers, before you enable room correction.
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Is it possible to change the effects on the fly without needing to go into the menus? Are there direct keyboard shortcuts?

That is on the list for hopeful future enhancements.

What kind of level drop do you see when you turn on bass management? It should be rather small, dB wise.

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post #468 of 971 Old 11-09-2006, 02:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greggplummer View Post

The scenario I was talking about would be for someone who has a multichannel surround setup, like 5.1 or 7.1, and they want to play stereo music from just 2 speakers (normal stereo playback). So the multichannel soundcard is still connected to a 5.1 or 7.1 system. However, all of their speakers are bookshelf type 2-ways with limited bass extension. So, when they play 2 channel music, they would like to send low frequencies to their subwoofer.

This is the default result if you have a 5.1 setup with bass management enabled, and you play 2-channel material (with or without speaker fill).

This is exactly what should and does happen.

The only unusual behavior you may see is if you change the output format to 2-channel, and there is no need to do that, playing 2 channels of 5 should work fine, with or without speaker fill turned on.

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post #469 of 971 Old 11-09-2006, 04:51 PM
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Originally Posted by jj_0001 View Post

You can certainly turn bass management on and off via the control panel.

Presently, you'll have to turn it on and off manually.


manually is for the birds... automation is everything in home theater. if it's not simple then most of the family members in america who are not audio nuts will simply not mess with it.

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post #470 of 971 Old 11-09-2006, 04:58 PM
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manually is for the birds... automation is everything in home theater. if it's not simple then most of the family members in america who are not audio nuts will simply not mess with it.

Indeed, we suspect that they will just turn it on and leave it on. By the way, I am not aware of many AVR's that do any differently.

We have had some requests for per-app settings, indeed. Someday, maybe, but not today.

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post #471 of 971 Old 11-09-2006, 05:14 PM
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The bass management console should be configurable by even the most basic of non-intellectuals. A "wizard" would be good for those that don't know what they are doing with their 2 channel setups in terms of subwoofer crossovers.

SIMPLICITY AND COMPLETE DOMINATION of the receiver market is what HTPC should strive for. This meager attempt by Microsoft will maintain the current status quo for another decade to come. Microsoft is the ONLY group who has the ability to create an HTPC from the level of the O.S. They need to proceed with a long term vision in mind. Why they simply don't "acquire" a high end audio company is beyond my understanding. Then they could use all the technology and implement it into software without re-inventing the wheel.

Then again, what do I know...

I gave up on a complete HTPC solution when Panasonic came out with the saxr55 that does an INCREDIBLY good job for $280. Optical out from my pc outputting bit perfect to the saxr55 and I'm done. Sold my M-audio delta 1010 and rotel 1095 amp and the panasonic does the job just as good if not better. My only regret is the inablity to control everything from the desktop. I use girder to help me control the receiver volume functions since I am not going to mess with non-bit-perfect output using windows volume control.

WHY has microsoft not bothered to create a device like the SONOS? CLEARLY what the HTPC NEEDS is an amazingly functional but simple handheld remote which allows you to put away the mouse and keyboard yet not have to setup crazy IR automation schemes.

we could sit down with microsoft software and hardware people and within a few days draw up the outline for a product that people would REALLY WANT to buy. Design ideas already in the heads of half the people in this forum would put the IPOD and to shame in terms of sales... Get some of us together in a room and we would tell you exactly what "The people" would use and want.

Bottom line: the technology has been available for years for creating an amazing HTPC. NOBODY is listening and bringing it all together into the finished product it could be.

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post #472 of 971 Old 11-10-2006, 08:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blazar View Post

The bass management console should be configurable by even the most basic of non-intellectuals. A "wizard" would be good for those that don't know what they are doing with their 2 channel setups in terms of subwoofer crossovers.

SIMPLICITY AND COMPLETE DOMINATION of the receiver market is what HTPC should strive for. This meager attempt by Microsoft will maintain the current status quo for another decade to come. Microsoft is the ONLY group who has the ability to create an HTPC from the level of the O.S. They need to proceed with a long term vision in mind. Why they simply don't "acquire" a high end audio company is beyond my understanding. Then they could use all the technology and implement it into software without re-inventing the wheel.

Then again, what do I know...

I gave up on a complete HTPC solution when Panasonic came out with the saxr55 that does an INCREDIBLY good job for $280. Optical out from my pc outputting bit perfect to the saxr55 and I'm done. Sold my M-audio delta 1010 and rotel 1095 amp and the panasonic does the job just as good if not better. My only regret is the inablity to control everything from the desktop. I use girder to help me control the receiver volume functions since I am not going to mess with non-bit-perfect output using windows volume control.

WHY has microsoft not bothered to create a device like the SONOS? CLEARLY what the HTPC NEEDS is an amazingly functional but simple handheld remote which allows you to put away the mouse and keyboard yet not have to setup crazy IR automation schemes.

we could sit down with microsoft software and hardware people and within a few days draw up the outline for a product that people would REALLY WANT to buy. Design ideas already in the heads of half the people in this forum would put the IPOD and to shame in terms of sales... Get some of us together in a room and we would tell you exactly what "The people" would use and want.

Bottom line: the technology has been available for years for creating an amazing HTPC. NOBODY is listening and bringing it all together into the finished product it could be.

I'm not sure if I'd like to see Microsoft come out with something like the SONOS (this doesn't sound too appealing from the perspective of someone who has a startup company dedicated to PC audio solutions and would have to compete with Microsoft).

Anyhow, you say people have all sorts of great ideas about the perfect products. For the past several years, we have been trying to communicate with the HTPC community and have found it to be pretty difficult. It seems like the vast majority are satisfied with simply connecting their PC to their AV receiver and really don't need to consider alternatives that might provide superior sound quality.

Anyhow, I've had a blog for a few months with the hopes of conversing with people interested in PC audio. So I'm listening, but nobody seems to want to talk.

Gregg Plummer
Amplizone - a blog about the development of Amplio Audio's soundcard/amps
The Short History of Audio/Video Technology
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post #473 of 971 Old 11-10-2006, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by greggplummer View Post

I'm not sure if I'd like to see Microsoft come out with something like the SONOS (this doesn't sound too appealing from the perspective of someone who has a startup company dedicated to PC audio solutions and would have to compete with Microsoft).

Anyhow, you say people have all sorts of great ideas about the perfect products. For the past several years, we have been trying to communicate with the HTPC community and have found it to be pretty difficult. It seems like the vast majority are satisfied with simply connecting their PC to their AV receiver and really don't need to consider alternatives that might provide superior sound quality.

Anyhow, I've had a blog for a few months with the hopes of conversing with people interested in PC audio. So I'm listening, but nobody seems to want to talk.

I would definitely consider a more PC-oriented receiver, with swappable/upgradeable components (DACs/OPAMPS/etc.), a wide-bandwidth error-correcting buffered digital connection between the PC and the receiver (no more S/PDIF), multiple sound paths/zones, support for PC-oriented sound specs like EAX/OpenAL/etc., a unified PC/receiver remote and so on. What sort of products do you have in mind for your company?
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post #474 of 971 Old 11-10-2006, 12:05 PM
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I would definitely consider a more PC-oriented receiver, with swappable/upgradeable components (DACs/OPAMPS/etc.), a wide-bandwidth error-correcting buffered digital connection between the PC and the receiver (no more S/PDIF), multiple sound paths/zones, support for PC-oriented sound specs like EAX/OpenAL/etc., a unified PC/receiver remote and so on. What sort of products do you have in mind for your company?

We've built a prototype that combines a multichannel soundcard with fairly powerful, great sounding amplifier modules. The amp modules are connected to high quality power supplies with lots of capacitance for ample energy storage, etc. The current prototype uses a linear supply (toroids, rectifiers, capacitors, etc.), but we are experimenting with the new generation of switching power supplies and have been very impressed. We also have a very good softstart circuit to eliminate pops during power up. The soundcard section uses a FireWire connection to get the fastest, lowest latency interface. This is important for functionality like digital crossovers and room correction. Theoretically, our system is expandable. By adding another soundcard module, you increase the number of available channels. We use the highest quality DACs and analog circuitry to send a really great fully differential signal to the amps. Our soundcard section's DACs and analog circuitry are very comparable to what you will find with fairly expensive dedicated processor/DACs.

We still have a fair amount of work to complete before we can ship a commercial product. So I'm hoping to get a lot of feedback while we are still in development.

Thanks for asking. However, I don't want to hijack this thread. If you have any other questions, feel free to contact me through our blog or website.

Gregg Plummer
Amplizone - a blog about the development of Amplio Audio's soundcard/amps
The Short History of Audio/Video Technology
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post #475 of 971 Old 11-11-2006, 09:10 AM
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ub4b


You need to use the in box drivers that come with vista for the realtek audio codec.

roll back the driver you installed from realtek's website and then you should see a room correction tab under the speakers options.

I rolled back to the boxed driver. This results in the following error visible in the device manager :

The device cannot start. (Code 10)

The boxed driver date is 21/06/2006 version 6.0.5728.16387 . When I try to update the driver Vista doesn't find a newer version online.

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In this case Realtek have chosen to offer their own room correction which does not seem to have an automatic calibration but requires the relative speaker distances to be entered manually. We are working with them to clearly identify the provider of each audio effect under the Enhancement tab.

The realtek room correction seems limited to what is basically in most surround processors, which is time alignment.

I really appreciate that steps are taken to contact Realtek, as the ALC 880 has a very good SP/DIF output and this is a potential chipset.

I basically use my HTPC (a laptop with embedded ALC880) only to output SP/DIF, as my processor has much better DAC's than what I can find in these laptop soundcards. Even external USB soundcards with analog outputs would have a challenge.

I have an Integra Research RDC7 which I have compared to many others (Lexicon, Tag McLaren, ...) and in 2 channel audio (with a sub added to make 2.1) it is hard to rival to my taste.

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There is some difficulty in arranging user interfaces for people with 2-channel systems that have subwoofers. The great majority of such systems have built-in crossovers, and a number of people were afraid that such systems would confuse the average (not the user here) user into setting things up the wrong way. If you have a multichannel sound card and a 2-channel system, you can set the system up to multichannel, phantom out the speakers you don't have, and that should enable the bass management for you. (I don't have such a system at my desk presently, though, but I believe that works.) There is a great deal of tension involved in making a UI for most people, rather than you and I, who are not only willing to set everything, but who WANT TO.

Crossover frequency is certainly user-configurable if you have bass management exposed and operating, by the way. It has to be user configurable, we can easily find situations where the crossover setting needs to be 40Hz, and ones where it needs to be 200Hz, in order to properly protect the speakers involved. There's no option but to make it adjustable.

I'm in the same situation :

SP/DIF out to my Integra RDC7, everything above 80Hz goes to my Hyperion 906 front speakers, everything below to my Velodyne DD18 sub

It would be nice to be able to do vista room correction on such setup as well.

There are other high-end soundcards that would allow such puristic setup, one is the emperical audio USB Off-Ramp Turbo 2, a modified M-Audio card with high-end clock and tuned coaxial cable which appears to rival many high-end transports.

Frederic Vanden Poel
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post #476 of 971 Old 11-12-2006, 11:11 AM
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The 1.0 for the last speaker looks extremely odd. Are you standing in front of that speaker? Is it facing the mike? Is it broken? (N.B. you will always get 1.0 for the sub, and you will get 1.0 for one other speaker, the one that is providing the least energy to the mic, but seeing coeff's like .05 next to it suggest that something is not working the way its supposed to.

The coefficients you show are very extreme, and suggest that the last speaker in the list, for some reason, is very, very much farther away, pointed the wrong way, or something. Try the "speaker test" on each speaker, you should find that it sounds at least audible and reasonable for each of the speakers, before you enable room correction.


That is on the list for hopeful future enhancements.

What kind of level drop do you see when you turn on bass management? It should be rather small, dB wise.

What is strange is that when I configure my playback device (Audiotrak Prodigy 7.1) as a 5.1 configuration (the setting I chose for my previous posts), and when I click the test button I have signals on each speaker but that on the SR is noticeably louder than the others...

Today, I tried to chose a 7.1 configuration instead. Then I click next and in the customization page I tried both with and without a side pair (in two separate tests). Then I went back to the properties of my playback device and here, for any of these two 7.1 configuration setting, "Room correction" was available in the list of enhencements, but not checkable (and its settings were not accessible).

So my conclusion for these unsuccessfull attempts is that my beta drivers are buggy... Therefore, I will wait to grab better drivers or another audio interface before conducting further testing...

Anyway, I found Vista audio controls to be much more intuitive and efficient than XP ones.

One question: what is the condition to check for so that unsigned XP WDM drivers will actually show up the "enhancement" tab in playback device properties? Indeed, I know of audio interfaces that work in Vista with their current XP drivers but how to be sure that Vista will enable Room correction for them?
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post #477 of 971 Old 11-13-2006, 02:29 PM
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What is strange is that when I configure my playback device (Audiotrak Prodigy 7.1) as a 5.1 configuration (the setting I chose for my previous posts), and when I click the test button I have signals on each speaker but that on the SR is noticeably louder than the others...

Hmm....

This sounds like a cabling or plug issue, perhaps. I don't think this is software, unless it's some hardware configuration thing.

James D. (jj) Johnston
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post #478 of 971 Old 11-14-2006, 06:44 AM
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Seems Realtek released version R1.50 of their Vista drivers today :

ftp://61.56.86.122/pc/audio/

Nov 14 2006 06:42 13556415 Vista_R150.exe
Nov 14 2006 06:42 13486158 Vista_R150.zip

I will test them later today and hopefully the room correction plugs into the vista room correction system and not their own implementation which was really limited without auto calibration.

Frederic Vanden Poel
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post #479 of 971 Old 11-14-2006, 07:36 AM
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Ah, good to see a rather high-level explanation of Vista's new multimedia stuff!

Any chance of getting a detailed explantion/info on Media Foundation too? I'd like to see if I can port my DShow filters over too it and what possible benefits other than DRM^2 would be present.

Multimedia Software / Hardware Dev
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post #480 of 971 Old 11-14-2006, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by ub4b View Post

Seems Realtek released version R1.50 of their Vista drivers today :

ftp://61.56.86.122/pc/audio/

Nov 14 2006 06:42 13556415 Vista_R150.exe
Nov 14 2006 06:42 13486158 Vista_R150.zip

I will test them later today and hopefully the room correction plugs into the vista room correction system and not their own implementation which was really limited without auto calibration.


If your sound card runs with the in-box drivers, you ought to be able to use it without the realtek drivers, in which case you should get a full set of enhancements.

James D. (jj) Johnston
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