Audio Processing in Vista Explained - Page 19 - AVS Forum
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post #541 of 971 Old 01-22-2007, 12:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Davisjl View Post

I don't believe you can use the room correction if you are passing the audio via SPDIF. At least on my soundcard you can't ...

Thanks. On the Mac Mini, the Room Equalization option is enabled (for stereo at least) when using SPDIF, and I would love to be able to try it for my stereo setup, which I use with MCE's My Music.

The problem is, if I set up parameters for my stereo speakers, then when I switch to my 7.1 movie setup, it would have the wrong parameters:-( So I am trying to figure out if it's possible to define presets, and if these presets can be assigned to a MCE menu, or selected by the MCE remote (which then would be a matter of a simple macro for my universal remote.)

On another note, just tried a DTS .wav file in MCE, and all I get is zip and white noise:-( I thought that if the volume is at 0dB, and all "enhancements" are Off, WMP should be able to do bit-perfect. Is this a bummer, or what (or am I doing it wrong?)
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post #542 of 971 Old 01-22-2007, 02:31 AM
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Now I'm in a conundrum. I have an HD-A1 and am very happy with it indeed. However, until the Tosh arrived I was very happy playing SD-DVDs through my HTPC with Theatertek. I ran the sound out via my sound card's SPDIF to my Denon 1906 via coax. I am now upgrading my PC to an Athlon 64 x2 4600 and have all HDCP compatible components. I was also going to do a fresh install of XP while I was at it. So the question is, should I go for XP again (presuming that Vista will still have bugs to be ironed out for some time yet) or should I go for Vista? Will the HTPC route via the X-Box add-on really open out this year as a viable alternative to the stand alone HD-DVD players? And will Vista be better in this regard than XP now? I don't want to have to reinstall my OS later, so it's now or almost never for Vista.... Opinions?
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post #543 of 971 Old 01-22-2007, 11:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slwiser View Post

Make sure that he does not turn the volume up much since this is purported to kill some equipment and damage ears at high volumes.

It would be a very, very good idea to be extremely cautious with this (reportedly) 19.5kHz full-scale signal.

I'd say, in fact, as cautious as "don't do this".

James D. (jj) Johnston
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post #544 of 971 Old 01-24-2007, 01:41 PM
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Your are probably right in it being best not to do this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jj_0001 View Post

It would be a very, very good idea to be extremely cautious with this (reportedly) 19.5kHz full-scale signal.

I'd say, in fact, as cautious as "don't do this".


Dell XPS 210 WinXP using FLAC lossless music files out to a M-Audio USB Audiophile --->>SPDIF--->> Lavry DA10--->>AT-HA5000 --->>ATH-W5000
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post #545 of 971 Old 01-25-2007, 09:03 AM
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Amir,
I need to ask a question, based on this thread here, the guy said that most games will only give a stereo sound in Vista, is this true? I thought that only EAX effects will be missing and games will still have a surround sound but the guy from Creative said otherwise.
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post #546 of 971 Old 02-03-2007, 12:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slwiser View Post

Does this mean that we will or will not be able to get a pure signal out to our external equipment via Vista for our headphones?

No, headphone virtualization (if you choose to use it) will only affect audio playback through headphones connected directly to your computer's headphone jack.

Shuba
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post #547 of 971 Old 02-11-2007, 06:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by netarc View Post

I noticed that on an HP DEC z558 system running Vista MCE (Realtek HD Audio driver), that one can't output digital _and_ analog audio simultaneously?

When using MCE's "set up speakers" wizard to select analog (L/R) outputs, the digital outputs are disabled; rerun the config wizard and select SPDIF (or TOSlink), and analog is disabled!

Has anyone been successful in configuring Vista MCE for simultaneous analog and digital output?


UGH! Yes! I have this exact same problem! Unfortunately, this was a Vista deal-breaker for me and so I went back to MCE2005. Analog and digital both output at the same time using MCE2005 -- no problem. I don't understand why this has changed -- is it the Realtek drivers or the way Vista manages audio?
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post #548 of 971 Old 02-26-2007, 03:21 PM
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Question for amirm. Is Vista WMP11 ever going to be updated to be allowed to use exclusive mode or that is not happening? I need bid perfect output for my CD collection, which was working perfect under Windows MCE 2005 with Realtek ALC882D. I just changed to Vista and there are no solutions available yet. Before I go back, I would like to know if this will ever be changed or not.

Regards,
Chris
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post #549 of 971 Old 02-26-2007, 03:47 PM
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I am able to play 44.1khz DTS material in Vista MCE. Am I not getting bit perfect for mp3/cd as well?

Confusing..
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post #550 of 971 Old 02-27-2007, 05:35 AM
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Quote:


bit perfect for mp3

ROTFLMAO

Jim White
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post #551 of 971 Old 02-27-2007, 07:10 AM
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The one thing that really drives me nuts about Vista is the audio scheme.

I'm using the X-Mystique, and if I want spdif-passthrough (for DD and DTS content), I have to go into Windows Control Panel and select "Digital Out".

If I want to play a game, and have the X-Mystique do DDLive! encoding, I have to go back into Windows Control Panel and select "Analog Out".

If I have analog out selected, and try playing a HD-DVD through PowerDVD, I can't enable spdif out in Cyberlink's Config.

It's annoying to have to go back and forth into Windows Control Panel for whatever my needs may be concerning audio. In WinXP, I simply selected the X-Mystique as the sound output, and it took care of the rest. If a DD or DTS stream were present, it simply passed it over spdif without touching it. Everything else was encoded to DD.

Very annoying, I hope Microsoft fixes this.

Currently testing 3D with Sammy DLP, shutter glasses, and HTPC
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post #552 of 971 Old 02-27-2007, 08:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by openwheelracing View Post

I am able to play 44.1khz DTS material in Vista MCE. Am I not getting bit perfect for mp3/cd as well?

Confusing..

Are you using WMP11 to pass the DTS wave files? Are you using the SPDIF out or the analog? Vista Final or one of the betas?
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post #553 of 971 Old 02-27-2007, 08:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krassyg View Post

Are you using WMP11 to pass the DTS wave files? Are you using the SPDIF out or the analog? Vista Final or one of the betas?

I can do with with either wmp11 or vista mce. Vista Ultimate final edition. s/pdif out.




Jimwhite: I guarantee you my mp3s, flacs, and oggs are the highest grade. Nothing wrong with mp3s, especially for music you don't listen to often. The space saving is well worth it. Would you rather listen to mp3s in 48khz instead of 44.1khz? lol
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post #554 of 971 Old 02-27-2007, 11:56 AM
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Which motherboard are you using?
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post #555 of 971 Old 02-27-2007, 12:09 PM
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My workaround for gaming+HTPC in one box has been two installs: One hard drive has XP with DDL/DTS Interactive -> SPDIF. For movies/hddvd/dvd/OTA/etc I have the boot defaulted to vista x64 and disabled the sound card. I use HDA onboard sound (another SPDIF) into my Yamaha HTR5550 receiver.

The Vista x64 is (going to be) on a RAID 0 (dual raptors) and the XP (for gaming) will remain on the 150 raptor. With the HTPC MCE writing chunks of data the RAID should come handy I figure. From the reviews I've read on storage review they all say gaming performance wise on board raid doesn't do much (and may even take away a little) so I'm sticking to just one 150 GB raptor for that (the one with XP).


Quote:
Originally Posted by taz291819 View Post

The one thing that really drives me nuts about Vista is the audio scheme.

I'm using the X-Mystique, and if I want spdif-passthrough (for DD and DTS content), I have to go into Windows Control Panel and select "Digital Out".

If I want to play a game, and have the X-Mystique do DDLive! encoding, I have to go back into Windows Control Panel and select "Analog Out".

If I have analog out selected, and try playing a HD-DVD through PowerDVD, I can't enable spdif out in Cyberlink's Config.

It's annoying to have to go back and forth into Windows Control Panel for whatever my needs may be concerning audio. In WinXP, I simply selected the X-Mystique as the sound output, and it took care of the rest. If a DD or DTS stream were present, it simply passed it over spdif without touching it. Everything else was encoded to DD.

Very annoying, I hope Microsoft fixes this.

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post #556 of 971 Old 02-27-2007, 01:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krassyg View Post

Which motherboard are you using?

Asus A8R32-MVP Deluxe: Onboard ALC882
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post #557 of 971 Old 02-27-2007, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Eiffel View Post

Thanks for sharing this interesting information.

As the D/A converters on my pre-processor are much better than than the ones on my M-audio 410 'audiophile' sound card (and because I can send an S/SPDIF signal over quite a long distance without attenuation/loss), I would like to know if it will be possible to output a bit-perfect 44.1kHz CD signal over S/PDIF without resampling?

I'm currently using ASIO drivers for this functionality, but would be happy to switch to another approach.

Thanks

You can do this today, with or without Vista, and with onboard sound. There is a thread on here somewhere about it, and I can attest that it works. The key is having a motherboard that has a Realtek HD Audio chip, mine is an MSI K8NGM2-FID with the Realtek ALC880; I believe any Realtek 88x chip will work. Not only does it give bit-perfect output over S/PDIF, but the control panel also allows it to auto-switch between 44.1 and 48 kHz - meaning no settings changes or selections to make when switching between DTS and PCM, etc.

Ed
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post #558 of 971 Old 02-27-2007, 03:53 PM
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The onboard audio on my Asus P5B Deluxe allows bit-perfect output. Unfortunately, in Vista, you have to manually switch between 44.1/48khz. I don't know if you had to do it in XP, as this is a new build.

Currently testing 3D with Sammy DLP, shutter glasses, and HTPC
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post #559 of 971 Old 02-27-2007, 07:25 PM
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So, if I'm following this thread correctly then the whole bit-perfect issue is dead, correct? As far as I understand it, Vista processes sound a lot like the X-fi from Creative. Since the sample rate conversion is so good, spdif output from my motherboard at 48khz (in Vista) should sound the same as bit-perfect sound at 41khz from my av-710 (in XP), right?
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post #560 of 971 Old 02-28-2007, 11:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eopian View Post

Since the sample rate conversion is so good, spdif output from my motherboard at 48khz (in Vista) should sound the same as bit-perfect sound at 41khz from my av-710 (in XP), right?

WRONG.
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post #561 of 971 Old 03-01-2007, 12:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by openwheelracing View Post

I am able to play 44.1khz DTS material in Vista MCE. Am I not getting bit perfect for mp3/cd as well?

Confusing..

No, you are not.
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post #562 of 971 Old 03-01-2007, 12:46 AM
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peter could you please share what you have found out about the audio stack of vista, while writing your bit perfect player ? (did you manage to do it by the way ? care to share ?)

sorry for my poor english but I'm french !!!!
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post #563 of 971 Old 03-01-2007, 01:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krassyg View Post

Question for amirm. Is Vista WMP11 ever going to be updated to be allowed to use exclusive mode or that is not happening? I need bid perfect output for my CD collection, which was working perfect under Windows MCE 2005 with Realtek ALC882D. I just changed to Vista and there are no solutions available yet. Before I go back, I would like to know if this will ever be changed or not.

Here is one definite solution : http://forum.bd-design.nl/board_entr...r&descasc=DESC

Maybe read the third post of this older thread too : http://forum.bd-design.nl/board_entr...r&descasc=DESC

Please note that today this player is still not finished for production, though it won't take weeks anymore.
Also, please don't glog up this thread with questions about it. All questions will be answered at the referenced forum (use Category XXHighEnd pls).

Mods : Might you think that this post is a commercial, please delete. It is meant as informative anyway.
Personally I don't think there will be other players around soon obeying the "Vista way" because the paths to follow for a dev are rather outragious. Rather undoable in fact.

Peter
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post #564 of 971 Old 03-01-2007, 01:35 AM
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peter i've been reading the links you give, but I don't follow you on something regarding bitperfect in vista ; you are implying that even asio is not bit perfect, any proof of that ?

sorry for my poor english but I'm french !!!!
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post #565 of 971 Old 03-01-2007, 02:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vairulez View Post

peter could you please share what you have found out about the audio stack of vista, while writing your bit perfect player ? (did you manage to do it by the way ? care to share ?)

Let me say this about it :

First of all, NOTHING in this thread as exposed by Amir and a few others was untrue. However, you have seen my counterquestions throughout the thread, and ALL of them a. were not answered and b. implied something in which I turned out to be right. One of the best examples is my suggestion about other apps dying at playing a sound, while "your" app is running the soundcard in exclusive mode. If you'd read back again, you will see my (the) implications *IF* such a situation would happen, and obviously MS does not like to provocate that (and that's why the responses stayed away).

The complete information is not in this thread, although a few things can be reasoned out by those who know the ins and outs a bit.
Also, from the documentation (in the SDKs, MSDN) -to me- clearly follows that MS at this time don't want us to use the nice stuff ...
There are no working examples, and there is NO - and I mean *not any* references to bit perfect playback, or the use of Exclusive Mode for that matter.

The reason for this IMO (!) is as follows :

Where all the "nice stuff" has been made available to developers, this is all in the area of "unmanaged code". In order to better understand what this means : this is about not Dot-Net. Or IOW, plain C++.
Officially MS calls this : stuff from Kernel Mode has been made available in User Mode. Right. But they did not take the time to implement all in Dot-Net, hence rewrite the code. Also, most probably this isn't even possible, because things would be of a too high level, hence too slow again (latency).

I say, that any self respecting larger piece of software, just cannot integrate into the unmanaged-code-world. It just takes too much to acomplish. Rewrite the lot in plain C++ ? undoable ! Besides that, in the current world of software development, using the very powerful Dot-Net features, programmers would need to find out programming again. In fact, I am one of them ...

Vairulez, I have other news for you, and probably to all besides MS insiders themselves;
You recall my search for WaveRT on another forum the other day ? You also recall the document you referred to about this ?
1. This document (by heart, from September 2006) praised WaveRT as the new way to go for, when you are into low latency stuff.
2. This same document exists in a January 2006 version just the same, stating WaveRT obsolete now ...
3. WaveRT exists since 2000, the the code referring to LongHorn (i.e. Vista) already ...

Thank you very much.
There are NO WaveRT examples, except in the middle of AC97 drivers (hence unuseable for what we want).

I will not say all is a hoax, although it was me myself getting Exclusive Mode to run, because officially (per program comment) it can't ... That is, not that MS herself knows of in example code, which might have been a tad too old for the RTM release of Vista. Otoh, questions about this on MSDN forums are not answered (but I didn't look for 2 or 3 weeks now).

For the Pro-audio world : latency is far far less than one audio sample (2.4 GHz machine, less than 0.1ms at 88.2KHz). Of course that's unuseable (because of refilling buffers), but true anyway if you do it the way it *can* be done -> FWIW I do this.

Peter
Disclaimer : Above are all my own findings and thoughts, and I didn't copy anyone else's (there's nothing to copy as of yet ).
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post #566 of 971 Old 03-01-2007, 02:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vairulez View Post

peter i've been reading the links you give, but I don't follow you on something regarding bitperfect in vista ; you are implying that even asio is not bit perfect, any proof of that ?

No.
However, knowing how all is build up you can reason it can't. Only Exclusive Mode apps can go around KMixer, oops, Audio Engine.

It took me a week or so to build me an environment to test for bitperfectness, which kind of officially isn't possible anymore (there's a big secret here of which I think you (can) know what it is). Anyway, the fact that I couldn't find software (at the time -> one month ago or so, but it about sure won't exist today) that allowed me to record from Vista playback properly, also incurred fot this special environment, which I won't setup so quickly again (too much effort, needs stuff I actually don't have).

Maybe it helps if I say that what I do is just Kernel Streaming, which officially can't be called so anymore. It should be called User Streaming. Haha.
Read this thread again, because this too is there : "Kernel Streaming doesn't exist anymore" or something similar. This is not even BS, because whatever it was, it's not in the Kernel anymore, and whatever it did, it doesn't do bitperfect anymore.
ASIO is mot much different from KS (in fact you can call it the same), but what all things (existing software) lack is the Vista Audio Stack. And only that allows Exclusive Mode, which in the end is the key. Well, the key to bitperfectness for those who want that. I just want it because of wanting to have (you) the best Audiophile player; obviously this shouldn't start off with dithered bits.

Anyway, if the only thing I change is Exclusive Mode On/Off, it's the difference between bitperfect/not bitperfect. Also note that I'm poking right into the Shared Rendering Buffer, so there isn't anything else (well, assembly ).

Peter
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post #567 of 971 Old 03-01-2007, 03:26 AM
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Quote:


ASIO is mot much different from KS (in fact you can call it the same), but what all things (existing software) lack is the Vista Audio Stack.

that's where I lose you, what do you mean ?????

sorry for my poor english but I'm french !!!!
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post #568 of 971 Old 03-01-2007, 06:23 AM
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You are perfectly right in losing me.
I just spent two hours (Google) on finding proof for my statement on ASIO, but these two hours are not enough to do so. However, I couldn't find the contrary either, and all is just a matter of how the software hooks into the driver *and if the driver still allows to do that at the appropriate level* !

Much is related to DRM stuff (again ) ...

A small example of how difficult it is to draw conclusions from what you see and hear, WITHOUT actually testing (like I did not ) : Under Vista, there are no RME-MME drivers anymore. So, goodbye for that path of bitperfectness. But :
We may ask ourselves *why* RME omitted them. All drivers are certified drivers now ... (note : I just saw that RME released new drivers; didn't check them yet).

I'm afraid there's not much else than really test it, which I will do (again; I'd better done that earlier).

To be complete : Note that I do not say in any way that ASIO, KS or DS for that matter don't work anymore. They all do (okay, ASIO4ALL not I think), but all connect to a layer which is MS', or better, I think all connect to the very same DMA buffer, in which even I could -ahead of the current Playing Pointer- mangle the data. If I can do it, MS can do it.

There's more to reason in this area, but I better really prove it.

Also to be complete : if the creators of it do now how to check things ... there are one or two home-brew soundcard drivers around, that allow a general player to be bitperfect. This is what I read, not what I tested.
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post #569 of 971 Old 03-01-2007, 07:00 AM
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If I am doing analog out of my sound card, does any of this bit perfect stuff impact that at all? Does XP or Vista do anything to muck up audio that is decoded by the sound card?


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post #570 of 971 Old 03-01-2007, 08:45 AM
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Quote:


but all connect to a layer which is MS'

Are you sure ?
I looked (very quickly) at the ASIO SDK and nowhere does it say that.
On the contrary, the application talks directly to the hardware through the asio driver thus bypassing complety the OS whatever it is.

sorry for my poor english but I'm french !!!!
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