Audio Processing in Vista Explained - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 971 Old 09-02-2006, 10:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Odo Sky View Post

Hello Amir,
does Vista support multichannel audio over firewire (IEC 61883-6) including rate adaption (Sony HATS, Pio PQLS).

Any chance of getting an answer to this question?
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post #182 of 971 Old 09-02-2006, 01:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JTAnderson View Post

Any chance of getting an answer to this question?

Sorry, I am travelling in Germany...

Anyway, yes, multichannel audio over 1394 is very much possible. But we don't ship with inbox drivers for it. A third-party would have to do that.

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post #183 of 971 Old 09-02-2006, 01:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sherbona View Post

http://theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=34094

Amir, is this true? I am **very** unhappy with this if this is accurate and there's no way to turn off start up sound!

Please tell me this ain't so...

Unfortunatley, I can't tell you that . What I can tell you is this. The sound has much lower volume and is gentler on the ear. So it has no chance of blowing your spearkers or making you deaf.

Yes, yes, I know you don't want any sound and neither do I. So I am working the system to see what could be done. So bear with me on this a while longer...

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post #184 of 971 Old 09-02-2006, 01:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shigaloo View Post

Just to clarify, is the room response done once and then the settings stored?

I wont need a mic always attached at the listening position, correct?

Correct. It is a one time setup and lasts a minute of two until the calibration is done. And the tones are pleasant unlike some other systems that blast your speakers with nasty noise. Once done, you put away the mic unless you change your equipment, the speaker position, or want to calibrate again from a different location.

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post #185 of 971 Old 09-02-2006, 02:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

Unfortunatley, I can't tell you that . What I can tell you is this. The sound has much lower volume and is gentler on the ear. So it has no chance of blowing your spearkers or making you deaf.

Yes, yes, I know you don't want any sound and neither do I. So I am working the system to see what could be done. So bear with me on this a while longer...

I appreciate you looking into this and taking the time to answer.

As part of my job, and at home, I'm around windows starting up maybe 10 times a day, many times on machines with attached speakers... so aside from HTPC issues I cringe at just how annoying that start sound will be no matter how good it is after a few months (let alone after a few years!).

I really hope the system listens to you, good luck!

Thanks again.
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post #186 of 971 Old 09-02-2006, 07:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sherbona View Post

http://theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=34094

Amir, is this true? I am **very** unhappy with this if this is accurate and there's no way to turn off start up sound!

Please tell me this ain't so...

Edit - just to clarify, I don't care whether the start up sound is customizable or not, as long as I can disable *all* windows sounds.

Just put a .1 second empty sound as the custom sound... There are much more annoying things about Windows people should be bitching about... like the lack of a built in dictionary that allows you to click on words anywhere on the screen and be offered spelling corrections, or to look up their definitions. God, OS X is designed so much more elegantly...

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post #187 of 971 Old 09-03-2006, 04:16 AM
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Originally Posted by JohnAd View Post

Amir

This is indeed exciting news, I have been following the driver developments by looking at the WinHEC slides over the last few years and had been thinking that what you describe would be possible in the new infrastructure, I had no idea you would actually go ahead and do it.

One thing that I'm still not sure about is the best way to build a possible DScaler for Vista. For video I have a set of filters that work fairly well within the DirectShow framework accept for a noticable and slightly inconsistent (between 4-10 fields) latency. I can probably play with time stamps and try to give a fixed delay of say 100ms. However this is still too large if the audio is being routed separately.

One possible solution is to try to do the same sort of thing for audio and add control over the delay. My early attempts to do this within the DirectShow framework was pretty disheartening, the latency was around half a second doing a DD decode on an incoming spdif signal. What I'd be very interested to know is what MS suggest as the best, lowest latency way of getting incoming sound off the card, through a set of directshow filters and back to the sound card (via your new filtering/processing). Ideally we should be able to do all this processing with a latency of no more that 50ms. Can you suggest the right technologies to play with?

John

Amir

Just checking that this question wasn't missed. What is the "right" way of interfacing into the new low latency stuff from a user-land code point of view and are there any samples?

John

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post #188 of 971 Old 09-03-2006, 06:12 AM
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once more :

Eho or Amir :
did you also work on improving the synchronisation of audio and video for multimedia playback ( a la reclock ) ?

sorry for my poor english but I'm french !!!!
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post #189 of 971 Old 09-03-2006, 11:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QueueCumber View Post

Just put a .1 second empty sound as the custom sound... There are much more annoying things about Windows people should be bitching about... like the lack of a built in dictionary that allows you to click on words anywhere on the screen and be offered spelling corrections, or to look up their definitions.

Yes but that only works with my machines, not the others I work with throughout the day where it isn't practical to make changes like that.


O/T OS comments:
I don't think of dictionary needing to be part of an OS myself, to me that's something that belongs more in the application layer. But whatever works.

Quote:


God, OS X is designed so much more elegantly...

Yet there seems like much more demand for running Windows on Mac machines rather than the other way around...
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post #190 of 971 Old 09-03-2006, 12:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schlotkins View Post

Here's a question:

It appears that the sound support of Vista is very, very good. Let's say I wanted to output analog from the HTPC and just run it to amps. How do the DACs from good sound cards compare to something like a HK645 receiver?

Thanks,
Chris

From looking at the published specs for the HK AVR645, it's hard to tell what DACs they use. There's a lot more than just the DACs to consider. Within the audio path, there are a lot of components that will effect the signal quality. Most of the manufacturers of DACs that are used in pro and consumer electronics quote both dynamic range and total harmonic distortion figures. The HK AVR645 specs show the signal to noise ratio (SNR). Technically, the dynamic range is the SNR added to the devices headroom. However some of these manufactures use the same figure for both dynamic range and SNR. The HK AVR645 shows an overall SNR of 100dB and THD of 0.07%, while the typical good quality soundcard has a dynamic range of over 110dB. The latest DACs from TI/Burr Brown have a SNR of up to 132dB and THD of 0.0004%.

For a direct comparison of specs, you'll see the Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi Elite has a SNR of 116dB and THD of 0.0008%. Creative's E-MU product line has even higher specs for some of their pro-audio soundcards. A Lynx Two B shows a dynamic range and SNR of 117dB and THD of 0.0004%.

So as you can see, the performance specifications for a good soundcard can be a lot better than your typical AVR. However, you still have to consider the rest of the audio chain that's included in the signal path of the AVR.

Anyhow, you can do quite a bit better combining a good soundcard with other high quality components.

Gregg Plummer
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post #191 of 971 Old 09-03-2006, 12:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan1 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by vairulez
WMP11 or media center will not do it, they will only provide a bitperfect output on spdif with and compressed format (let's say AC3 or DTS).

____________________________________________________________ _____
So, why not on PCM?

Call me stupid, but is this a technical difficulty related to WMP, or is there some logical reason which escapes me, for not supporting bit-perfect PCM in WMP (and by extension, in MCE?)

Anyone has a response to this and what it means to someone using a Vista as a lossless-rip CD jukebox?
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post #192 of 971 Old 09-03-2006, 05:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sherbona View Post

Yet there seems like much more demand for running Windows on Mac machines rather than the other way around...

Which has nothing to do with one being more elegantly designed than the other... Windows demand has more to do with the amount of software available for the Windows OS compared to the Mac OS, not with elegance of design.

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post #193 of 971 Old 09-03-2006, 06:13 PM
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Well you like the Mac OS better, good for you! But that's off topic, this thread is for how audio works in Windows Vista.
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post #194 of 971 Old 09-04-2006, 08:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greggplummer View Post

If you want the benefits of Vista's audio processing (room correction, bass management, etc.) and the ability to output a multichannel digital stream to your receiver, here's how I interpret it working:

Your player application (WinDVD, TheaterTek, PowerDVD, MCE/WMP) will play (decode) the DVD's lossy compressed DD/DTS audio. The decoding will convert the audio into multichannel PCM - uncompressed audio data.

gregg/amir

I'm waiting for a audio-capable HDMI I/O - which is critical

Sorry if this has already been answered but I think i did not see it: Would the vista DSPs be able to work on an incoming multichannel PCM (via HDMI) from an external player? I don't want to use a PC based software player app

If I am not mistaken everyone's waithing for this bit - it would then output the room-corrected multichannel PCM back out thru the HDMI output.

Boo!
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post #195 of 971 Old 09-04-2006, 09:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SiriuslyCold View Post

gregg/amir

I'm waiting for a audio-capable HDMI I/O - which is critical

Sorry if this has already been answered but I think i did not see it: Would the vista DSPs be able to work on an incoming multichannel PCM (via HDMI) from an external player? I don't want to use a PC based software player app

If I am not mistaken everyone's waithing for this bit - it would then output the room-corrected multichannel PCM back out thru the HDMI output.

I'm sorry, but I don't have an answer to your question. We will have to wait for a response from Amir and he may still be on vacation.

However, I was wondering why don't you want to use a software player like TheaterTek, WinDVD, MCE, etc.? Future versions will probably support HD-DVD, Blu-Ray and may provide some of the advantages we've already learned to appreciate with our DVDs. Just curious...

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post #196 of 971 Old 09-04-2006, 09:31 AM
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gregg,

thanks... I can wait it'll be some time before the HDMI I/O card is available anyway

TBH I don't know much about software players and too lazy to tweak, but I am interested in a situation where a Vista powered PC could work like a DEQX or TacT and keep everything in the digital domain for passing to my Panasonic XR class-D amp. Also I'm more optimistic about a HDMI I/O card than SACD support on PC dvd-drives

Boo!
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post #197 of 971 Old 09-04-2006, 09:34 AM
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Hi Amir,

IMHO Audyssey's MultQ XT is to Audio, what "Clear Type" is to the (reading) visual comfort.

So is there any chance of seeing (hearing) this included in Vista (Ultimate?) as an Audio Super Bonus?

Hugo

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post #198 of 971 Old 09-04-2006, 11:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SiriuslyCold View Post

TBH I don't know much about software players and too lazy to tweak, but I am interested in a situation where a Vista powered PC could work like a DEQX or TacT and keep everything in the digital domain for passing to my Panasonic XR class-D amp. Also I'm more optimistic about a HDMI I/O card than SACD support on PC dvd-drives

Nothing in Vista will natively do this. However, it is a great opportunity for a third-party to write one. It shouldn't be that difficult to do. It would simply read the inputs and then output through normal Vista audio pipeline. Such an app could also create different room correction settings for example, and tie those to a remote control like TacT does.

BTW, SACD sadly will never come to a PC. Sony and Philips disallow it in their licensing. Things people do to damage their proposition... Making a new audio format in the age of internet and not allow ripping...

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post #199 of 971 Old 09-04-2006, 01:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

Q. does Vista support multichannel audio over firewire (IEC 61883-6)

A: yes, multichannel audio over 1394 is very much possible. But we don't ship with inbox drivers for it. A third-party would have to do that.

This is a pity. There seem to be no A&M protocol drivers for XP. Even for ready money.

Such drivers would be v welcome, until HDMI arrives. As I understand it, you are offering the choice of (a) VISTA room correction with PCM; (b) the receiver's room correction with DD/DTS.

This means, at best, having to switch the receiver's correction on/off when switching between formats, which is not v friendly.
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post #200 of 971 Old 09-04-2006, 08:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

Nothing in Vista will natively do this. However, it is a great opportunity for a third-party to write one. It shouldn't be that difficult to do. It would simply read the inputs and then output through normal Vista audio pipeline. Such an app could also create different room correction settings for example, and tie those to a remote control like TacT does.

BTW, SACD sadly will never come to a PC. Sony and Philips disallow it in their licensing. Things people do to damage their proposition... Making a new audio format in the age of internet and not allow ripping...

amir, thanks! i hope some card manufacturer has that app when they ship a HDMI I/O card

Boo!
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post #201 of 971 Old 09-05-2006, 02:11 AM
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Hi,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugo S View Post

Hi Amir,

IMHO Audyssey's MultQ XT is to Audio, what "Clear Type" is to the (reading) visual comfort.

So is there any chance of seeing (hearing) this included in Vista (Ultimate?) as an Audio Super Bonus?

Hugo

... and I shall add that if Audyssey comes with a stand-alone software (at a "reasonable" price), I would be part of the early adopters.

Hugo

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post #202 of 971 Old 09-05-2006, 08:12 AM
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Amir,

Does Vista EQ algorithms account for people that have 1+ subs in the room?

Also from this discission i see that only way people with more than 1 sub can use new features is to reencode processed signal and pass it to receiver via Spdif (not good - extra encoding with data loss) or have receiver that can act as USB sound card.
Seems that later is best choice, but are there any quality receivers with such functionality?

Thanks!
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post #203 of 971 Old 09-05-2006, 08:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kroot View Post

Amir,

Does Vista EQ algorithms account for people that have 1+ subs in the room?

Also from this discission i see that only way people with more than 1 sub can use new features is to reencode processed signal and pass it to receiver via Spdif (not good - extra encoding with data loss) or have receiver that can act as USB sound card.
Seems that later is best choice, but are there any quality receivers with such functionality?

Thanks!

What existing AVRs support more than 1 subwoofer? Don't you have to use a splitter off of the receiver to send the LFE and subwoofer signals to more than 1 subwoofer already?

If you have a USB receiver or a soundcard/amp like ours, you will still have to split the .1 channel to multiple subs when using Vista's bass management. It sure would be nice to have an advanced channel mixer that lets you add more channels for this purpose.

If you are planning to use Vista's bass management and you have a soundcard with real-time DD/DTS encoding capabilities, you will pass the AVR a 5.1 or 7.1 and have to split the .1 to all the subs. In this case you would probably disable the AVR's bass management, but you would still need some kind of a splitter off of the subwoofer/LFE output.

If you chose to use the AVR's bass management, then it will probably be the same as XP, but without the sound degradation due to Kmixer.

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post #204 of 971 Old 09-05-2006, 10:25 AM
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I've looked in Pre-RC1 and RC1 now and still can't find where I can use this room EQ feature.

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post #205 of 971 Old 09-05-2006, 11:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

Correct. It is a one time setup and lasts a minute of two until the calibration is done. And the tones are pleasant unlike some other systems that blast your speakers with nasty noise. Once done, you put away the mic unless you change your equipment, the speaker position, or want to calibrate again from a different location.

Thanks, so can you save more than one setting (e.g. as a profile) and switch them?
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post #206 of 971 Old 09-05-2006, 02:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

I've looked in Pre-RC1 and RC1 now and still can't find where I can use this room EQ feature.

Use will need an audio device that supports the features. HD-audio and the class drivers built into windows are the two I know about so far but it is possible there are others. If you have one of these devices right click on the speaker icon in the taskbar, goto playback devices, double click on Speakers, and then click on the enhancements tab.

-Rian
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post #207 of 971 Old 09-05-2006, 03:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan1 View Post

So, why not on PCM?

Call me stupid, but is this a technical difficulty related to WMP, or is there some logical reason which escapes me, for not supporting bit-perfect PCM in WMP (and by extension, in MCE?)

Can someone from MSFT provide a straight answer to this question? This is one of the big complaints that people have about the current MCE, and given all the changes being made to the audio chain in Windows, I don't understand why this is not also being addressed?

I mean, look at all the work being done with ASIO and KS to get around this issue.

If you are going to support it, please say so. And if not, please tell us why not, and if our existing workaround with KS and ASIO will continue to work in Vista? Whill USB audio devices like the M-audio transit be able to do bitperfect CD audio in Vista as they do now?

A lot of people consider this very important to our HTPC's, and and if we would like to know what the future holds for this in Vista.

Thanks,
Mike
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post #208 of 971 Old 09-05-2006, 09:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrchung View Post

Use will need an audio device that supports the features. HD-audio and the class drivers built into windows are the two I know about so far but it is possible there are others. If you have one of these devices right click on the speaker icon in the taskbar, goto playback devices, double click on Speakers, and then click on the enhancements tab.

-Rian

class drivers?

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post #209 of 971 Old 09-05-2006, 09:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

class drivers?

Such as the USB audio class. If a device complies to the USB audio class standard then it can use generic audio drivers that come with Vista which work with the enhancements.

-Rian
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post #210 of 971 Old 09-05-2006, 11:21 PM
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Can anyone give an example or two of a sound card one could buy that would enable these features? Unfortunately, I have a Sound Blaster X-Fi, which will only use them if Creative writes their driver to do it (and they seem hard-pressed to even get a working Vista driver out there, let alone one that would take advantage of special OS features). I've got Vista x64 RC1, but am limited to crappy stereo sound through my onboard Via soundchip.

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