It seems to me that tuning ATSC is responsible for at least 50% of the bugs and issues with Mediaportal and SageTV. I could be wrong, but I haven't really had the best experience with either of them and ATSC tuning. And neither of them do QAM.
One of the guys who did a little dev work for the MP project suggested to me a product called the HDHomerun. This product has 2 ATSC tuners, supports QAM and attaches right to your network. You can stream TV over your network via VLC mediaplayer. It also works with MythTV.
I'm hoping that someone writes a plugin for Mediaportal or SageTv to use this box. I just ordered one, and it costs the same as a couple of standalone PCI cards. The person who reccomended it to me said he thinks the multipath rejection is better than the A180 and on par with the Vbox DTA 150.
I have one of these, the client stuff will come in time. Some advantages to this box- 2 hd tuners, any combination of cable/air for both inputs, no drivers to deal with, box can be remotely located (put in basement/attic- where cable/antenna located), developers of the box seem to listen to suggestions on the forum and make firmware/software changes accordingly.
Its a little clunky to operate right now, but it looks like they will be able to make it work with various software- mythtv/beyondtv/mce/sage. I'm sure there's a bunch of smart people working on applications for this since there is no drivers to deal with and there's no secret to how it works.
I had a dvico fusion tuner- for qam recording, it was their application or nothing (ok, mythtv would work I guess), and was about 70% reliable for me.
I setup a batch file for recording/viewing, which takes takes several commandline arguments- 'view'/'record'/'view-record' channel name (ABC CBS etc) and if recording, the length in minutes to record. It simply starts vlc with appropriate options, tells hdhomerun to tune to channel, sets up filter so hdhomerun only transmits 1 program stream(very nice), tells hdhomerun which ip/port to broadcast to, then I have a simple little cscript that waits for recording time to finish and then sends keystrokes to vlc to stop/quit. I'm sure there's a better way, but this only took me a couple hours (including the usual batch file programming quirks I always have to re-live every time I do it).
I can see where someone could make a nice little stand-alone application for this. Integrate vlc (open source) or some other ts decoder/player with Titan TV (tvpi format no longer encrypted). There is nothing stopping anybody from doing this- no super secret drivers to deal with, just simple commands sent to a box on the network.
I can see many possibilities with this type of device.
That's not really an "example of an immature product" so much as it's your cable company broadcasting it that way figuring that the overscan on your tv will compensate for the band at the top. If you want to blame someone, blame your cable company.
It's not the cable company, but all TV sources. TVs by convention overscan, which is why that area of the frame is used for DATA (e.g., "Line 21" closed captions).
I see problems on top/bottom of picture on various sources- dish hd/cable/etc. Usually the overscan of a tv hides it. It's the originator of the signal that should get the blame. The hdhomerun has a 'simple' job of just decoding a digital stream- it doesn't know or care where the top/bottom/left/right of your screen is.
VLC has a crop filter- I haven't tried it, but that may help.
I'm not sure why the 'signal originators' need to screw up the edges on a digital signal- I can understand it with analog as there is no other 'location' to transmit data. I guess tv makers will have to continue to overscan (which they do) even though the signal is digital and the display is digital .The tv knows where the corners of the display are at- why do they have to throw away pixels. I guess because broadcasters can't be trusted around the edges.
curtvm, the additional benefits you mention are points well taken.
There is much work remaining to be done with the firmware and client software. Right now it is nowhere near consumer quality as in "Best Buy ready". It is a useful and interesting gadget for AVS type people. SlingMedia has set a high bar for their marketplace.
I see SiliconDust in a race between their efforts to mature their HDHR product and competitors entering the market with polished products. The market window for them is open now. Their success requires ramping up their technical skills as well as making the right business decisions. They need to be a very different company a year from now.
As far as the top twinkling scan line, it's not a matter of who is at fault, it's a matter of fixing the problem. It's all about the consumer experience. Who's at fault is a distraction from the real issue which is improving the consumer experience.
I think that there are going to be serious limitations under MCE. Silicondust plans on mapping the QAM channels to ATSC channels, since MCE doesn't support QAM. MCE guide information for ATSC channels is for OTA signals. Therefor, I suspect that one will only be able to receive QAM channels that have an OTA ATSC equivalent, i.e., major-network broadcasts. Using your digital cable guide data probably isn't going to work, because MCE will use the ATSC guide data for the virtual ATSC tuner. This doesn't bother me because most digital channels are encrypted anyway; at least I'll be able to receive major-network shows in DTV/HDTV if Slicondust can write a functional MCE driver.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpaceCadet /forum/post/0
I think that there are going to be serious limitations under MCE. Silicondust plans on mapping the QAM channels to ATSC channels, since MCE doesn't support QAM. MCE guide information for ATSC channels is for OTA signals. Therefor, I suspect that one will only be able to receive QAM channels that have an OTA ATSC equivalent, i.e., major-network broadcasts. Using your digital cable guide data probably isn't going to work, because MCE will use the ATSC guide data for the virtual ATSC tuner. This doesn't bother me because most digital channels are encrypted anyway; at least I'll be able to receive major-network shows in DTV/HDTV if Slicondust can write a functional MCE driver.
Have you heard if they are working on compatibility with Vista's Media Center? From what I understand Media Center within Vista does support QAM. I've been running the HDHomeRun on a network with both XP and Vista and it works fine on either OS using the VLC player.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobSalita /forum/post/0
curtvm, the additional benefits you mention are points well taken.
There is much work remaining to be done with the firmware and client software. Right now it is nowhere near consumer quality as in "Best Buy ready". It is a useful and interesting gadget for AVS type people. SlingMedia has set a high bar for their marketplace.
I see SiliconDust in a race between their efforts to mature their HDHR product and competitors entering the market with polished products. The market window for them is open now. Their success requires ramping up their technical skills as well as making the right business decisions. They need to be a very different company a year from now.
As far as the top twinkling scan line, it's not a matter of who is at fault, it's a matter of fixing the problem. It's all about the consumer experience. Who's at fault is a distraction from the real issue which is improving the consumer experience.
I agree this thing is not for the Best Buy shelves and probably never will be either, but that doesn't matter to me (i'm not a silicondust investor). We need more companies that target me, the oddball consumer.
If I can get clear qam to work with Vista MCE, that will make me happy. They may be the first ones to make it happen. In my case I just get the locals in the clear, but then at least I don't have to put up an antenna.
I recorded the USC football game last night (cable qam). Setup a batch file to record at 7pm for 210 minutes. Worked perfectly. If I can setup batch files to record cable qam, that means it has the right programming interface (in my opinion). If nothing else, at least I can 'program' this thing to record, and use MCE for playback.
I got the information on the virtual ATSC tuner from Silicondust's support/development forum. As far as I know, Vista only supports QAM in the context of an OCUR. The HDHomeRun can't emulate an OCUR because most cable systems are analog/digital hybrids and the HDHomeRun doesn't have an NTSC tuner. If it did, emulating an external OCUR without a CableCARD would be the best way to support it (Vista would be able to record all unencrypted QAM channels).
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpaceCadet /forum/post/0
I got the information on the virtual ATSC tuner from Silicondust's support/development forum. As far as I know, Vista only supports QAM in the context of an OCUR. The HDHomeRun can't emulate an OCUR because most cable systems are analog/digital hybrids and the HDHomeRun doesn't have an NTSC tuner. If it did, emulating an external OCUR without a CableCARD would be the best way to support it (Vista would be able to record all unencrypted QAM channels).
I don't think it needs to emulate an OCUR device though. The HDHomerun does not use BDA drivers, but rather appears to Windows as a Universal Plug and Play (UPnP) device. This is unique, and would allow it to tune and record QAM in Windows, provided you have some way to map those channels you want to record to the guide, which I believe they are going to work on.
I just set one up. Connected directly to my HTPC, using tftpd32 to give it an IP...SageTV 5.0.4 was easy to setup. Channels are mapped and guide data (it uses the built in SageTV guide) is good. I'm using OTA...I don't get any more channels with QAM.
That is incorrect. The hdhr's receiver does have NTSC capabilities, however, its just that the device doesn't implement it ... the technical reason being that the device would also need to incorporate an A/V decoder in order to digitize the cvsb signal coming from the receiver
That is incorrect. The hdhr's receiver does have NTSC capabilities, however, its just that the device doesn't implement it ... the technical reason being that the device would also need to incorporate an A/V decoder in order to digitize the cvsb signal coming from the receiver
Encoder . What they would need to do is take the analog signal from the tuner, then encode it in mpeg-2 (with an encoder chip, just like a lot of pci tuner cards do), and then since its digital, put it over the network just like they do with the hd stream.
It wouldn't surprise me if they do this at some point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Munkee Boy /forum/post/0
I don't think it needs to emulate an OCUR device though. . . . would allow it to tune and record QAM in Windows, provided you have some way to map those channels you want to record to the guide, which I believe they are going to work on.
You can use it to record QAM channels in Windows now if you're using another application; I was responding to an inquiry about using it with MCE, where the fact that Silicondust is implementing MCE QAM support as a virtual ATSC tuner is relevant.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CityK /forum/post/0
The hdhr's receiver does have NTSC capabilities, however, its just that the device doesn't implement it ... the technical reason being that the device would also need to incorporate an A/V decoder in order to digitize the cvsb signal coming from the receiver
It's irrelevant that it has an NTSC tuner if the hardware doesn't have at least a video digitizer (and preferably a hardware MPEG-2 encoder; it also has to have an analog demodulator); the NTSC tuner cannot be used.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpaceCadet /forum/post/0
I think that there are going to be serious limitations under MCE. Silicondust plans on mapping the QAM channels to ATSC channels, since MCE doesn't support QAM. MCE guide information for ATSC channels is for OTA signals. Therefor, I suspect that one will only be able to receive QAM channels that have an OTA ATSC equivalent, i.e., major-network broadcasts. Using your digital cable guide data probably isn't going to work, because MCE will use the ATSC guide data for the virtual ATSC tuner. This doesn't bother me because most digital channels are encrypted anyway; at least I'll be able to receive major-network shows in DTV/HDTV if Slicondust can write a functional MCE driver.
I'm not sure about you but the only unencrypted QAM channels I get have ATSC equivalents. I get all my standard channels up to 23 in digital 480i, and then just the major networks in HD anyway.
Just to chime in. I am using this device with SageTV to watch QAM non-5C'ed local HD channels, and I am very pleased with it's performance, quality, and integration with SageTV.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpaceCadet /forum/post/0
You can use it to record QAM channels in Windows now if you're using another application; I was responding to an inquiry about using it with MCE, where the fact that Silicondust is implementing MCE QAM support as a virtual ATSC tuner is relevant.
What I said also applies to MCE. I'll refer you to this thread.
"MCE supports UPnP for streaming video sources - it will show up as a source in the same way it does for a BDA driver."
I'm not sure what you are getting at with the "virtual ATSC tuner" thing. The majority only receive their locals via QAM anyway. If you get more than that, you are the exception to the rule. If you get channels that don't have an OTA equivalent to map to, you could always map it to the analog versions of those channels (I believe this has been done before). It will still record on the digital tuner, but use the guide data from the analog channel.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpaceCadet /forum/post/0
Quote:
Originally Posted by CityK /forum/post/0
That is incorrect. The hdhr's receiver does have NTSC capabilities, however, its just that the device doesn't implement it ... the technical reason being that the device would also need to incorporate an A/V decoder in order to digitize the cvsb signal coming from the receiver
It's irrelevant that it has an NTSC tuner if the hardware doesn't have at least a video digitizer (and preferably a hardware MPEG-2 encoder; it also has to have an analog demodulator); the NTSC tuner cannot be used.
Encoder . What they would need to do is take the analog signal from the tuner, then encode it in mpeg-2 (with an encoder chip, just like a lot of pci tuner cards do), and then since its digital, put it over the network just like they do with the hd stream.
No, I was talking about an A/V decoder. The output from an analog demodulator is a cvsb signal that is inputed into an A/V decoder for digitization. From the A/V decoder, the digital bitstream (RGB or YUV) would then be inputed into a MPEG2 encoder.
Quote:
It wouldn't surprise me if they do this at some point.
They could, its certainly a possibility, but I don't know if they would bother with analog dissapearing. I think they were just thinking of keeping it as a digital device.
One thing interesting though (from a cursory google search into its internal elements) is that its Ubicom network controller is from a wireless family apparantly....a natural evolution
Quote:
Originally Posted by Munkee Boy /forum/post/0
What I said also applies to MCE. I'll refer you to this thread.
"MCE supports UPnP for streaming video sources - it will show up as a source in the same way it does for a BDA driver."
I'm not sure what you are getting at with the "virtual ATSC tuner" thing. The majority only receive their locals via QAM anyway. If you get more than that, you are the exception to the rule. If you get channels that don't have an OTA equivalent to map to, you could always map it to the analog versions of those channels (I believe this has been done before). It will still record on the digital tuner, but use the guide data from the analog channel.
That's exactly the thread that I was talking about. Using a virtual ATSC tuner is an obvious solution to MCE's lack of QAM support, but it has the problems that I have referred to, including manual channel mapping. I've always wondered why other QAM-tuner vendors haven't done this. I posted about this long ago on The Green Button. This is the quote from the thread you referenced which refers to the virtual ATSC tuner:
"It would be possible to code a channel/sub-channel translation layer that would make the QAM channels appear to be OTA ATSC channels."
I currently don't have a digital tuner because I can't get OTA ATSC (which is why I'm interested in the HDHomeRun), but as far as I know it's not possible to use the guide data from the analog channels with the ATSC tuners (real or virtual). MCE's limitations with tuner types has always been a guide problem. It uses only one guide, and in the US the OTA ATSC guide data is bundled with the analog guide data, but MCE distinguishes between the two internally. There's a difference between clear QAM and encrypted QAM; all of your digital cable channels wiill be QAM, and many more channels than are available via OTA ATSC will be available via either clear QAM or analog (guides; cable-only local, community, and religious channels; government channels, etc.), but the most useful channels that aren't available OTA or via analog will be encrypted. In a few years, analog will go away, and you will need QAM for everything, but by then you'll have a PC with an OCUR and a CableCARD. Anyway, if you actually read my original post you would see that I addressed the limited clear-QAM issue--I considered HDHomeRun, despite the current price, as being useful just to get the major networks in DTV/HDTV.
Hadn't thought of that, but the way they keep pushing back the 'cutoff' date, it could be another 5 years or more. There's no requirement for cable companies to go digital as far as I know, so they may hang on to their analog distribution for a long time. If you are only using over-the-air, you will have to have a digital tuner of some kind at the 'cutoff' date, if using cable or satellite, life will go on as usual.
Are you kidding? Cable companies love digital. It allows them to cram in more useless channels in the same bandwidth. They love forcing you to pay exorbitant STB fees. They love STB's anyway because of the control that it gives them and to entice you to try revenue-enhancing services such as pay-per-view and video-on-demand. Say goodbye to analog the instant that your last local station goes digital.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpaceCadet /forum/post/0
Are you kidding? Cable companies love digital. It allows them to cram in more useless channels in the same bandwidth. They love forcing you to pay exorbitant STB fees. They love STB's anyway because of the control that it gives them and to entice you to try revenue-enhancing services such as pay-per-view and video-on-demand. Say goodbye to analog the instant that your last local station goes digital.
I'm not sure how its going to shake out, but I bet its going to be a mess when it actually happens. Most people don't even know that the local over-the-air stations are also digital/hd. I didn't realize it until about 2 years ago when I hooked up a tv that had a digital tuner in it. The local stations seem to want to keep it a secret.
I know cable companies want to extract as much as they can from every subscriber, but I would think they would know that if they force every 'basic service' subscriber to go digital, they are going to lose a bunch of subscribers. I think their current system (at least in my town) of analog/digital will be around for awhile. I'm not sure where they can come up with more useless channels anyway
"I know cable companies want to extract as much as they can from every subscriber, but I would think they would know that if they force every 'basic service' subscriber to go digital, they are going to lose a bunch of subscribers."
how so? when (not if) the locals go digital, they won't have a choice beyond:
1) leasing digital converter box from cable company (same number of channels)
2) buying converter box for OTA locals (far less channels)
3) buying a digital TV (bigger $$$$) for OTA (far less channels)
4) going satellite
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Related Threads
?
?
?
?
?
AVS Forum
34M posts
1.5M members
Since 1999
A forum community dedicated to home theater owners and enthusiasts. Come join the discussion about home audio/video, TVs, projectors, screens, receivers, speakers, projects, DIY’s, product reviews, accessories, classifieds, and more!