No 3:2 pulldown with HD-DVD/BR trick! - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 47 Old 03-01-2007, 05:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Ok, in case you do not have a display which accepts 1080p24fps and/or 48/72 hz output, here's a little trick to enjoy smooth playback with HD-DVD and BluRay without the annoying 3:2 pulldown.

What you will need:

1) A display supporting 50hz refresh rate (almost every display)

1)A HTPC capable of HD-DVD/BluRay reproduction with Powerdvd Ultra playback software.



2)A sound card with analog outs (also useful in order to enjoy DD+, TrueHD etc)



3) The latest beta of the amazing Reclock software (http://reclock.free.fr)


What you need to do:

1)Set the native resolution of your display at 50hz (pg 1280Χ720 50hz)

2)At the configuration of Reclock tick the following:




3)...and this:



4)When you playback HD-DVD/BluRay with Powedvd a liitle clock appears below and right. Click it in order to enter properties. Then click media adaptation and force 25fps, by pressing locked:



Thats it! What essentially reclock does is to slightly pitch the sound of the movie so that the 23,976 fps become 25 fps. This way there is no need for 3:2 pulldown and its judder!
Remember that the same procedure (sound pitch speed up) is followed during the mastering of the Region 2 (Europe) DVDs which are 25fps.
So if you are from Europe you will love it, if from the US it might at first sound a bit strange, although you will love the fluidity of the picture!

A couple of extra tips:
-You can only do it with analogue output not SPDIF.
- Let Reclock to work its magic, it needs some time to synchronize perfectly.
-Don't go back and forth with the chapters all the time, it might confuse reclock. If that happens, press stop and play.
Enjoy!

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post #2 of 47 Old 03-01-2007, 06:27 AM
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Actually, if you are from the US you won't bother with this as our displays do not use 50Hz.
You Europeans can screw up your audio levels...we have our own ways of messing up our movies
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post #3 of 47 Old 03-01-2007, 06:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skepticon View Post

Actually, if you are from the US you won't bother with this as our displays do not use 50Hz.
You Europeans can screw up your audio levels...we have our own ways of messing up our movies

Actually, almost ANY digital display I have encountered (and I have seen ALOT), accepts 50hz just fine..
Now, be a sport and give it a try..Who knows, you might even like it!

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post #4 of 47 Old 03-01-2007, 07:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skepticon View Post

You Europeans can screw up your audio levels...we have our own ways of messing up our movies

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post #5 of 47 Old 03-01-2007, 08:33 AM
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Too bad it won't work on my Benq 8700+...stupid thing still won't sync to 50 hz, even though it says it is. Grrrrr. Unless I use VGA - which I can't get 1:1 pixel mapping on. Ack!

Personally, I don't like adding 4% audio speedup. It just doesn't work for me - Luke Skywalker will sound even more like a pansy.

Anyways, if you have a display that can handle 48hz or 72hz input, the above procedure will work - just change your refresh rate!

I use Reclock to slow down PAL broadcasts - instead of 25 fps they become 24 fps and it slows the audio down to sound more "correct".
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post #6 of 47 Old 03-01-2007, 09:20 AM
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Can anyone please point out the rationale of using 50 Hz for either BD or HD DVD?

Both formats so far are exclusively 23.976 fps, or in case of the NiN disc 29.97 fps

Not a single 25/50 Hz disc has been released.
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post #7 of 47 Old 03-01-2007, 09:55 AM - Thread Starter
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But to avoid the 3:2 pulldown judder, what else?
I assume that by now, you must have figured out that there is something wrong with the fluidity of your picture when playing a 23,976 hd-dvd to a 60 hz display, isnt that so?
Or maybe you have a display capable of 48hz so for you, no problem whatsoever!

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post #8 of 47 Old 03-01-2007, 09:56 AM
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This is great post, thanks for sharing, I just wish I could somehow make it work with 1080i broadcast, 1080p doesn't look that bad on my TV, it's the 1080i, which looks horrible on some programs, especially some uprez transfers from film my TV can not handle at all and the ghosting created by those third half frames inserted there makes some programs totally unwatchable. I need to record some of those 1080i movies and see if it will get fixed, I think my new computer is fast enough to do it on the fly.
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post #9 of 47 Old 03-01-2007, 11:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by takisot View Post

But to avoid the 3:2 pulldown judder, what else?
I assume that by now, you must have figured out that there is something wrong with the fluidity of your picture when playing a 23,976 hd-dvd to a 60 hz display, isnt that so?
Or maybe you have a display capable of 48hz so for you, no problem whatsoever!

Playing back BD or HD DVD on a PC all you need to do to avoid pulldown-induced judder is to set the refresh rate to a multiple of 23.976 Hz for movies, or multiples of 29.97 Hz for the NiN disc.

My display does support 47.952 Hz btw, and it is what I'm using.

I did just notice that your thread was meant for those that can't do 23.976/47.952 though, so simply ignore my previous comments

They might still be interesting for others nonetheless.
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post #10 of 47 Old 03-01-2007, 11:11 AM
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takisot, you're using a 8720 right?
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post #11 of 47 Old 03-01-2007, 12:01 PM
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what HDTV LCD's support any other refresh rate other than 60Hz? Mine doesnt
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post #12 of 47 Old 03-01-2007, 01:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuyu View Post

takisot, you're using a 8720 right?

For the time being, yes..

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post #13 of 47 Old 03-09-2007, 12:39 AM
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so to avoid 3:2 pulldown you are pall-speeding your hd-dvds .....

sorry for my poor english but I'm french !!!!
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post #14 of 47 Old 03-09-2007, 01:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by takisot View Post

Actually, almost ANY digital display I have encountered (and I have seen ALOT), accepts 50hz just fine..
Now, be a sport and give it a try..Who knows, you might even like it!

Those displays have mostly been European models, eh?
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post #15 of 47 Old 03-09-2007, 01:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vairulez View Post

so to avoid 3:2 pulldown you are pall-speeding your hd-dvds .....

Exactly, and the results so far are very encouraging. Reclock (written by one of your Countrymen) does a fine job...

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post #16 of 47 Old 03-09-2007, 01:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kylebisme View Post

Those displays have mostly been European models, eh?

I am mostly involved with projectors and they all support 50 hz universally.

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post #17 of 47 Old 03-09-2007, 01:28 AM - Thread Starter
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I found a bug of reclock with some titles which does not allow to follow the above procedure for those titles only: For some unexplained reason, when I played back King kong, Miami Vice Fast & Furious 3 and MI 3, reclock reports 720X480 29,97 fps instead of 1920X1080 23,976 fps. Those are the only titles so far with a problem, out of my 30+ hddvd and BR collection. No BR disk has this ussue, only HD-DVDs.

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post #18 of 47 Old 03-09-2007, 03:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kschmit2 View Post

Can anyone please point out the rationale of using 50 Hz for either BD or HD DVD?

European TV releases - which will have been shot 50i/25p (BBC Planet Earth springs to mind) - may benefit from 25p/50i release rather than conversion to 60i or 24p.

Quote:


Both formats so far are exclusively 23.976 fps, or in case of the NiN disc 29.97 fps

Yep - this is fine if you have a 48/72/96/120Hz capable display which will display these as 2:2, 3:3, 4:4, 5:5 respectively. However if you have a display with just 50Hz and 60Hz, then 60Hz will require 3:2 field pulldown or frame repetition (with the associated asymmetric motion rendition this introduces), whereas 50Hz replay will use 2:2 (with symmetrical motion rendition) so appear more fluid, albeit with speed-up.

I, personally, find 3:2 judder very noticable. Others don't.

Quote:


Not a single 25/50 Hz disc has been released.

Suspect this may change when European TV releases begin. I hope the BBC release Planet Earth, Torchwood, Bleak House etc. in HD soon. All of these were shot 25p (mix of 720/25p and 1080/25p) and edited 1080/50i I believe.
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post #19 of 47 Old 03-09-2007, 05:11 PM
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what do we do if the video is NTSC (29.976 fps or 30 fps)? Would I have to manually change ReClock?

My projector supports 75Hz (not 72Hz at 1280x720 unfortunately). I could stretch the audio just as you did for 50Hz.

What I'd like is a nice solution that will eliminate judder given my 75Hz VSYNC, regardless of input video framerate.
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post #20 of 47 Old 03-09-2007, 05:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bennynihon View Post

what do we do if the video is NTSC (29.976 fps or 30 fps)? Would I have to manually change ReClock?

My projector supports 75Hz (not 72Hz at 1280x720 unfortunately). I could stretch the audio just as you did for 50Hz.

What I'd like is a nice solution that will eliminate judder given my 75Hz VSYNC, regardless of input video framerate.

Actually I just confirmed that my projector does indeed accept 48Hz VSYNC. So this will work well with my 24fps sources (DVD/HD-DVD). But what about NTSC sources (TV episode DVDs, avi files) that are at 30fps? How should I have ReClock handle 30fps to 48Hz? Maybe I can just have it convert all video to 24fps?
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post #21 of 47 Old 03-09-2007, 05:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bennynihon View Post

Actually I just confirmed that my projector does indeed accept 48Hz VSYNC. So this will work well with my 24fps sources (DVD/HD-DVD). But what about NTSC sources (TV episode DVDs, avi files) that are at 30fps? How should I have ReClock handle 30fps to 48Hz? Maybe I can just have it convert all video to 24fps?

No, that's too much of a change. If you do that sort of slowdown it would look horrible - 24 > 25fps only works because it's only a few % different.

Can your projector accept 60hz? That's your best otion with 30fps stuff, and will give you a judder free picture. It is actually even possible to automate this change with reclock and powerstrip - ie you play 30fps material, it auto-switches to 60hz, you play 24fps stuff and it changes to 48hz.
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post #22 of 47 Old 03-13-2007, 02:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by takisot View Post

I found a bug of reclock with some titles which does not allow to follow the above procedure for those titles only: For some unexplained reason, when I played back King kong, Miami Vice Fast & Furious 3 and MI 3, reclock reports 720X480 29,97 fps instead of 1920X1080 23,976 fps. Those are the only titles so far with a problem, out of my 30+ hddvd and BR collection. No BR disk has this ussue, only HD-DVDs.


UPDATE: PROBLEM SOLVED!

I found this post in the Reclock forums which provides a workaround for this issue with those HD-DVD titles:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Revilo View Post

Some hints for best playback of HD-DVDs with PowerDVD Ultra (HD) and reclock. This is the result from some experiments, it worked for me, maybe it works for others, too:

Start ReClock config, click the "Video settings" tab.
1.) Uncheck "determine frame rate of DVDs using built in estimator"
2.) Set "When framerate is not found... for DVDs" to 23.976
3.) Uncheck "Enable guessing a better media speed..."

Now start PowerDVD, play the movie. After the main movie has started, double click the left ReClock tray icon. Set the vide framerate to "Unknown". The icon will turn red.

With this method ReClock works perfectly even with movies which otherwise "resist" to be reclocked (for example Mission Impossible 3).
The vertical display refresh rate should be around a multiple of 24fps, of course (48/72Hz)


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post #23 of 47 Old 03-13-2007, 04:16 AM
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Sorry, I have to ask a noob question. With an LCD display that locked at 60Hz, what problems would I expect to see with any native 24fps material?
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post #24 of 47 Old 03-13-2007, 05:38 AM - Thread Starter
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You will expect a slight judder in slow pannings of the movie, arising from the necessary 3:2 pulldown procedure performed in your HTPC in order to display 23,976fps content to a 60hz display (60 is not an exact multiple of 23,976).

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post #25 of 47 Old 03-13-2007, 05:02 PM
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Ok this is great information, as judder is terrible on "Good Fellas", especially the first jump to spot...
But this only works with analogue sound output ??

Is there any judder fix for SPDIF output ? It is the only output I have available to me at this time...
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post #26 of 47 Old 03-14-2007, 02:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Time stretch is only possible through analog, so no, SPDIF wont cut it...

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post #27 of 47 Old 03-14-2007, 08:00 AM
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You can do it through SPDIF, if your soundcard/motherboard has Dolby Digital Live or DTS Interactive (or is it called DTS Connect?) - in such a case, the PC will decode the original S/PDIF stream and then re-encode it to DTS or DD5.1 on the fly, after the decoded stream is resampled for time stretch or clock correction.
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post #28 of 47 Old 03-14-2007, 08:05 AM - Thread Starter
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I didnt know that Max, very interesting!

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post #29 of 47 Old 03-15-2007, 07:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by takisot View Post

UPDATE: PROBLEM SOLVED!

I found this post in the Reclock forums which provides a workaround for this issue with those HD-DVD titles:

Aha! I have this problem with King Kong too.

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post #30 of 47 Old 04-29-2007, 04:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by takisot View Post

I found a bug of reclock with some titles which does not allow to follow the above procedure for those titles only: For some unexplained reason, when I played back King kong, Miami Vice Fast & Furious 3 and MI 3, reclock reports 720X480 29,97 fps instead of 1920X1080 23,976 fps. Those are the only titles so far with a problem, out of my 30+ hddvd and BR collection. No BR disk has this ussue, only HD-DVDs.

Mystery solved!

A fellow member of our Greek AV forum (Kyriakos) discovered that in certain movies wich were reported by reclock as 29,97fps 720Χ480i, there was in fact a second a/v stream to be used like PiP on the main a/v stream! So, by removing the conflicting references from the HD-DVD's .XPL (of ''Subvideo and Subaudio'' type) the problem is solved and reclock is recognizing those movies as 23.976 fps!
Here's how:
Just delete the marked lines from the .xpl of the problematic HD-DVD:


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