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post #451 of 2308 Old 04-09-2008, 09:50 PM
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This doesn't really fit the subject of this thread but you guys are all hitting really close to the answer I need so here goes.

I putting a BD Drive in my HTPC and want to know what software I need to pass uncompressed HD audio out either the analogue 8 channel outs or digital out from my MoBo. My card is an 8600gt which has DVI so I'm not worried about digital over HDMI - i just want uncompressed audio as i said above.

I have a nice Denon receiver which handles DD-EX and DTS ES. I don't believe it will decode the new HD audio formats so I think that if I want to listen to these I need to use the 8 channel inputs - even though it will bypass the processing in the receiver. I'll try it both ways i guess.

If i am going to use the 8 channel inputs, then what do you think a good sound card with good DACs is? Any thoughts on the M-Audio Revolution 7.1?

Can anyone here help?

Thanks, Craig
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post #452 of 2308 Old 04-10-2008, 01:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig aguiar View Post

This doesn't really fit the subject of this thread but you guys are all hitting really close to the answer I need so here goes.

I putting a BD Drive in my HTPC and want to know what software I need to pass uncompressed HD audio out either the analogue 8 channel outs or digital out from my MoBo. My card is an 8600gt which has DVI so I'm not worried about digital over HDMI - i just want uncompressed audio as i said above.

I have a nice Denon receiver which handles DD-EX and DTS ES. I don't believe it will decode the new HD audio formats so I think that if I want to listen to these I need to use the 8 channel inputs - even though it will bypass the processing in the receiver. I'll try it both ways i guess.

If i am going to use the 8 channel inputs, then what do you think a good sound card with good DACs is? Any thoughts on the M-Audio Revolution 7.1?

PowerDVD 8 Ultra decodes (and downsamples) both Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio to 16-bit/48kHz LPCM (uncompressed HD audio). So you don't need a sound card if you use GeForce 8200 HDMI. But if your receiver does not support HDMI, you have to use a sound card to get 8 channel audio. ASUS Xonar DX is a good card < $100.
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post #453 of 2308 Old 04-10-2008, 04:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stoked View Post

Think his source is this website: http://www.motherboardpro.com/ASUS-M...ail-p-554.html


I got an email from these guys, who I'm pre-ordered through, saying it'd be around the end of the month before they got these in.

-Josh Murrah
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post #454 of 2308 Old 04-10-2008, 06:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nathan_h View Post

I respectfully disagree: If they brought it out before it was ready, that would be far worse than a delay.

FWIW, I'm dying to get one into service in my system, too.

You're wrong.

They announced it. They announced a release date. They've pushed that release date now countless times, covering over 6 months I believe.

Once you announce it with a date, it's a launch. Pushing it 6-months is beyond horrible. Releasing it before it's ready is a symptom, and has nothing to do with core fact that the launch has been completely botched.

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post #455 of 2308 Old 04-10-2008, 07:27 AM
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AbMagFab.... I'd hate to live in your world... so angry! there are far too many things in life to enjoy without getting angry that your latest toy isn't gonna be of the "instant gratification" variety... lighten up... it's spring time.... fall in love or go fishing

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post #456 of 2308 Old 04-10-2008, 07:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by AbMagFab View Post

You're wrong.

They announced it. They announced a release date. They've pushed that release date now countless times, covering over 6 months I believe.

You are totally wrong. NVIDIA has never officially announced a release date (in the form of press conference or the like). All the information on release date is unofficial one, they are just leaks from the mobo vendors on what NVIDIA is telling them at the time. GeForce 8200 for AMD was officially announced on January 7, 2008 at CES. The actual release date was rumored to be late February or early March (4th) at CeBIT. Then it was postponed until April, again according to rumor.

The same applies to Intel. G35 was first expected in Q3 2007. But the first (and last) motherboard was released only in November 2007. As you can imagine, numerous people asked me when G35 mbs were available. You just don't know what was going on with the release of G35.
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post #457 of 2308 Old 04-10-2008, 08:21 AM
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Originally Posted by jimwhite View Post

AbMagFab.... I'd hate to live in your world... so angry! there are far too many things in life to enjoy without getting angry that your latest toy isn't gonna be of the "instant gratification" variety... lighten up... it's spring time.... fall in love or go fishing

I'm not angry at all, you might be projecting?

I am thrilled with my current set up.

I'm just clarifying for people what these vendors keep doing. The more you tolerate, support, and excuse their behavior, the more they will do it. Rather than defending them (which is inexcusable, even if you work for them), you should show your unwillingness to accept this behavior by buying something else, from a vendor that doesn't keep pushing dates.

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post #458 of 2308 Old 04-10-2008, 08:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

You are totally wrong. NVIDIA has never officially announced a release date (in the form of press conference or the like). All the information on release date is unofficial one, they are just leaks from the mobo vendors on what NVIDIA is telling them at the time. GeForce 8200 for AMD was officially announced on January 7, 2008 at CES. The actual release date was rumored to be late February or early March (4th) at CeBIT. Then it was postponed until April, again according to rumor.

The same applies to Intel. G35 was first expected in Q3 2007. But the first (and last) motherboard was released only in November 2007. As you can imagine, numerous people asked me when G35 mbs were available. You just don't know what was going on with the release of G35.

You can't be that naive - who do you think "leaked" the dates? Please...

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post #459 of 2308 Old 04-10-2008, 08:42 AM
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I'm not angry at all, you might be projecting?

Not at all.... I'm posting from a lounge chair by the pool and I have my second bloody mary beside me

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post #460 of 2308 Old 04-10-2008, 08:52 AM
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I've worked in high tech for many years. This release process is more responsible than most. I could fill ten pages in this thread with a list of products that should NOT have been released when they were -- that should have been held back from market while they were perfected. I'm glad it appears we won't be adding the 8200/8300 mobos to that list, since nVidia's QA folks appear to be sticking to their guns. That's a rare battle to win.

(This is all conjecture about the internal reasons for the release date. I don't have any direct knowledge of what's really going on.)


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post #461 of 2308 Old 04-10-2008, 08:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

The same applies to Intel. G35 was first expected in Q3 2007. But the first (and last) motherboard was released only in November 2007.

There's another, from Intel themselves, but it doesn't get much press and it's only DVI, not HDMI.

I do not speak officially in any sense for
Intel Corp., Technology Manufacturing Group
but I do work there.
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post #462 of 2308 Old 04-10-2008, 09:30 AM
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And don't forget the full ATX P5E-V HDMI. It's not available in the US, but it is pretty easy to get. Also, Asus has another G35 board that does not have HDMI. That makes four G35 boards.

I think sales of the P5E-VM HDMI have been pretty decent for Asus. If you go to Newegg, they list 321 Intel boards. If you click on Top Sellers, there are 30, and the P5E-VM HDMI is listed. If you sort by the number of reviews (which probably has some correspondence with total sales), the P5E-VM HDMI is listed as number 12.

At this point, I would wait for the 8200/8300. However, the P5E-VM HDMI was available in November, and 8 channel LPCM works very well, so people that bought one of these early will have been enjoying multi-channel HDMI audio for almost six months before the competition catches up. With 20/20 hindsight, perhaps a few more vendors would have built G35 boards.

-Dave
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post #463 of 2308 Old 04-10-2008, 10:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DPlettner View Post

And don't forget the full ATX P5E-V HDMI. It's not available in the US, but it is pretty easy to get. Also, Asus has another G35 board that does not have HDMI. That makes four G35 boards.

I think sales of the P5E-VM HDMI have been pretty decent for Asus. If you go to Newegg, they list 321 Intel boards. If you click on Top Sellers, there are 30, and the P5E-VM HDMI is listed. If you sort by the number of reviews (which probably has some correspondence with total sales), the P5E-VM HDMI is listed as number 12.

At this point, I would wait for the 8200/8300. However, the P5E-VM HDMI was available in November, and 8 channel LPCM works very well, so people that bought one of these early will have been enjoying multi-channel HDMI audio for almost six months before the competition catches up. With 20/20 hindsight, perhaps a few more vendors would have built G35 boards.

-Dave

G35 is only 6 months old? Man. I thought it was at least a year old.. :-)

Maybe it's not that outdated then.. :-)

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post #464 of 2308 Old 04-10-2008, 11:06 AM
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The Inquirer had a fairly negative story yesterday about the G35 and recent Intel GPUs. I think the article is a little harsh, especially since the G35 works well for me. However, it does give you a feel for how schedules can slip, and how products are not fully functional even after the hardware is released.

I am really looking forward to the 8300 boards. When they are released and working well for everyone, I might move the G35 to my desk and build an 8300-based HTPC. I am also interested in the rumored Asus HDMI sound card, but I have not seen much here lately about that card. At one point, I had a lot of hope for Auzentech, but they have been pretty quiet too. Also, it will probably be pretty expensive to get something like the Prelude and the HDMI add-on card.

-Dave
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post #465 of 2308 Old 04-10-2008, 02:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

PowerDVD 8 Ultra decodes (and downsamples) both Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio to 16-bit/48kHz LPCM (uncompressed HD audio). So you don't need a sound card if you use GeForce 8200 HDMI. But if your receiver does not support HDMI, you have to use a sound card to get 8 channel audio. ASUS Xonar DX is a good card < $100.

Thanks alot for the reply. I'm still a little confused.

Power DVD downsamples - is it a software thing or a hardware thing? Is there any way to get the sound not downsampled?

If i have 8 channel audio out from my mother board do i really need another sound card? I'm strictly speaking about just getting it working. I understand the DACs are probably crap and I would get much better sound with a good card.

Do you know if the HDMI output on the card you mentioned, or any other, is an HDMI 1.3. HDMI 1.3 is required to get DTS Master Audio and Dolby True HD. Other wise these signals get changed to regular 5.1 and DTS. These two formats require too high a bandwidth which is why they need the HDMI 1.3 standard and also cannot be delivered over standard optical or coaxial digital cables. If the card isn't HDMI 1.3 then this could be why Power DVD is downsampling it. If you output over 8 channel analogue then you wouldn't need the HDMI 1.3 but you lose some other things.

Craig
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post #466 of 2308 Old 04-10-2008, 03:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig aguiar View Post

Thanks alot for the reply. I'm still a little confused.

Power DVD downsamples - is it a software thing or a hardware thing? Is there any way to get the sound not downsampled?

If i have 8 channel audio out from my mother board do i really need another sound card? I'm strictly speaking about just getting it working. I understand the DACs are probably crap and I would get much better sound with a good card.

Do you know if the HDMI output on the card you mentioned, or any other, is an HDMI 1.3. HDMI 1.3 is required to get DTS Master Audio and Dolby True HD. Other wise these signals get changed to regular 5.1 and DTS. These two formats require too high a bandwidth which is why they need the HDMI 1.3 standard and also cannot be delivered over standard optical or coaxial digital cables. If the card isn't HDMI 1.3 then this could be why Power DVD is downsampling it. If you output over 8 channel analogue then you wouldn't need the HDMI 1.3 but you lose some other things.

Craig

As of right now it's believed (nobody is really sure except the engineers at cyberlink) That all audio from powerDVD is downsampled to 16/48. That is not the same as DD or DTS in fact it could be much higher quality audio and it can be 7.1 audio, it just isn't 24/96 20/96/ 24/48 or any of those other audio formats that can be used when encoding in trueHD, DTS-HD MA, or even LPCM.

So where 7.1 24/96 is 18mbps, powerDVD maxed out 7.1 is 6mbps, DTS is 1.5mpbs for 6.1 max and DD is 600kbps with 6.1max.

So you can see in terms of bandwidth powerDVD can offer pure uncompressed sound for something that is only 16/48 to begin with or very close approximation for something that starts out at higher fidelidy and is much better than DTS or DD.

You must have HDMI (v1.1+) or analog to get 7.1 w/ uncompressed 16/48.

Maybe in the future they'll bitstream HDMI(v1.3+) that will get the lossless codecs to your reciever unchanged. This would give bit perfect 24/96 7.1. Currently no PC hardware advertises the ability to bitstream(advanced codecs) and powerDVD does not support bitstream (advanced codecs).

SPDIF maxes out at DTS at 1.5mbps or 2 channel 24/96

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post #467 of 2308 Old 04-10-2008, 03:41 PM
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Well, the Asus website now has documentation and drivers for the new M3N-H/HDMI (which is 8300 based), and the M3N-HD/HDMI (which is 750a based) online and available for download. Just beta BIOS's listed so far, but back from 4/1...

Here are the links to the manuals:

http://dlsvr03.asus.com/pub/ASUS/mb/...nual_T3620.zip

http://dlsvr03.asus.com/pub/ASUS/mb/...nual_E3528.zip
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post #468 of 2308 Old 04-10-2008, 04:14 PM
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Scotti.

What you say kinda contrasts to what others are saying. Based on what I read, PDVD 7.3 is the one that downsamples, but PDVD 8 provides the lossless LPCM over analog and HDMI. Lossless here, imo, is the lossless of DTS-HD and TrueHD. If they downsamples it, how can they advertise as 'lossless'?

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post #469 of 2308 Old 04-10-2008, 04:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tosehee View Post

Scotti.

What you say kinda contrasts to what others are saying. Based on what I read, PDVD 7.3 is the one that downsamples, but PDVD 8 provides the lossless LPCM over analog and HDMI. Lossless here, imo, is the lossless of DTS-HD and TrueHD. If they downsamples it, how can they advertise as 'lossless'?

That's not what they are saying in the powerDVD thread http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...6#post13556616

It does handle lossless audio, then downsamples it for you. You didn't want those extra bits of data anywya.

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post #470 of 2308 Old 04-10-2008, 05:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig aguiar View Post

Power DVD downsamples - is it a software thing or a hardware thing?

There are two reasons.

- AACS-encrypted contents must be downresolutioned to 16-bit/48kHz unless the audio path is protected and in fact the protected audio path is nonexistent right now in PC. From archibael's post:

Quote:


A Licensed Player shall not pass, or direct to be passed Decrypted AACS Content to a digital output except:
1.4.1 A digital output of audio, or of the audio portion of other forms of Decrypted AACS Content, in compressed audio format (such as AC3) or in Linear PCM format in which the transmitted information is sampled at no more than 48 kHz and no more than 16 bits.
1.4.2 An output delineated in Table D1, AACS Authorized Digital Outputs, in accordance with any associated restrictions and obligations specified
therein;

- Unencrypted contents need not be downresolutioned, but as a matter of fact are downresolutioned to 16-bit/48kHz by PowerDVD. This a bug CyberLink acknowledged (bit-tech - PowerDVD audio downsampling explained (by Richard Swinburne; October 8, 2007)).

Quote:


When asked why PowerDVD downsamples HD audio from both Blu-ray and HD DVD discs to 48KHz / 16-bit, Chen responded by saying that "digital output without protection is not possible due to AACS requirement. Digital and analogue output with protection (HDMI) is also not possible due to lack of an internal secure audio path in a Windows PC."

"We are currently working with Realtek to support their proprietary interface for encryption of audio bus. Once completed, we will not longer need to downsample the audio. This will be provided for free to end-user for upgrade."

This didn't really clear up the downsampling situation though because, as far as we're aware all audio, regardless of encryption, is downsampled. We therefore pressed Chen to clear up the speculation. "I think this is a mistake," he said, "we never intended to pass this message. I think there might be some bug in our program that downsamples everything. That is not our intent. We only need to down-sample premium content (AACS, CPRM, etc)."

This prompted us to ask whether there is a requirement for AACS in a PC when a disc or file is not encrypted. Chen told us that the unencrypted scenario is not mandated by AACS so shouldn't be included in the downsampling.

We inquired further about the "secure internal audio path": is this because of Microsoft not providing one and/or sound card companies not providing a compatible driver? Chen informed us that there isn't an industry standard (defined by Microsoft or someone else) that makes the encryption/decryption path between software and audio driver secure. Cyberlink have to enable one chip after another which takes a considerable amount of time working with sound card providers, Microsoft and checking that it satisfies the AACS mandate.

- The above bug applies to not only 7.3 but also 8 (bit-tech - Cyberlink PowerDVD 8 & Media Show 4 (by Richard Swinburne; March 24, 2008)).

Quote:


The lossless audio support that we first covered a while back has been put back to the release of 8.5 at around the August-September time frame. Again, Cyberlink was keen to stress that this will be a free update if you already own PowerDVD 8.

This delay can be significant issue for those wanting to use PowerDVD 8 with Blu-ray disks, but after discussing this with both Dolby (TrueHD) and Cyberlink, as well as various motherboard vendors (Gigabyte boards that use the Realtek ALC889a and features content protection) and even AMD (in reference to its 780G and its audio limitation to S/PDIF pass-through under HDMI) during CeBIT, all we can conclude is that HDCP for full quality audio is just a complete mess.

These are not official statements from CyberLink, so take it as it is.
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post #471 of 2308 Old 04-10-2008, 05:45 PM
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Thanks for the clarification.

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post #472 of 2308 Old 04-10-2008, 07:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig aguiar View Post

Is there any way to get the sound not downsampled?

If i have 8 channel audio out from my motherboard do i really need another sound card? I'm strictly speaking about just getting it working. I understand the DACs are probably crap and I would get much better sound with a good card.

Do you know if the HDMI output on the card you mentioned, or any other, is an HDMI 1.3. HDMI 1.3 is required to get DTS Master Audio and Dolby True HD. Other wise these signals get changed to regular 5.1 and DTS. These two formats require too high a bandwidth which is why they need the HDMI 1.3 standard and also cannot be delivered over standard optical or coaxial digital cables. If the card isn't HDMI 1.3 then this could be why Power DVD is downsampling it. If you output over 8 channel analogue then you wouldn't need the HDMI 1.3 but you lose some other things.

- A popular way to get full-resolution sounds is use eac3to (rip by AnyDVD HD, demux, re-encode audio to lossless uncompressed format, then remux). But this is not for everyone.

- If your mb has 8 channel audio codec, you will get 8 channel analog audio from PowerDVD.

- Which card are you talking about? GeForce 8200 mb supports only multichannel LPCM, DD and DTS through HDMI (besides analog audio codec). ASUS Xonar DX/D2X supports only S/PDIF and analog. The upcoming ASUS Xonar AV1 card may support HDMI 1.3, but there is no software player to send TrueHD/DTS-HD MA bitstream (first of all the protected audio path is absent in the current PC). HDMI 1.0/1.1/1.2 supports enough bandwidth for 8 channel full-resolution uncompressed audio:

Audo: 8 channel/192 kHz/24 bit = 36.9Mb/s
Video: 1920 x 1080 pixels x 60 Hz / 0.95 (5% overhead) = 131 MHz, 131 MHz x 24 bits = 3.14 Gb/s
Bandwidth of HDMI 1.0/1.1/1.2 = 4.9Gb/s, more than 100 times the bandwidth of full resolution audio
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post #473 of 2308 Old 04-10-2008, 09:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Expreview - MCP7A-U to support DDR3-1333, first DDR3 mainstream mobo? (April 10, 2008)

Quote:


The chips now is in B1 revision stage, and have already taped out, NV will send samples to its partners in May. The final product may hits the market in July, which is also Intel G45's launch month.

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post #474 of 2308 Old 04-11-2008, 12:28 AM
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I'm a little confused which board is which now. Is it Geforce 8200 or Geforce 8300 that has been postponed? Or both? And is 750a based the same as Geforce 8300?
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post #475 of 2308 Old 04-11-2008, 01:20 AM - Thread Starter
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MCP7A is GeForce 8200/8300/9xxx for Intel that is expected in July (according to Expreview, not me). MCP78 = GeForce 8200/8300 for AMD is still expected in April according to various sources (not me).

nForce 750a is the SLI version of GeForce 8200/8300 for AMD (the PCI Express x16 link also splits into two PCI Express x8 links).
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post #476 of 2308 Old 04-11-2008, 07:37 AM
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I was away some time from this thread but things a bit confusing for me now...

Is there any one in this thread that owns ASUS M3N78-EMH HDMI board?

Has any one of You owning such a board had any luck getting any sound through HDMI connector through to the AVR (Windows XP SP2 preferably)?
What is Your working software setup (OS version, drivers, drivers settings, CP settings, etc.)?

Hope someone can say something exact and not theoretical about these problems.

I so far had zero luck making it work. I tested all hardware components (cables and such) of the setup and every one of them for themselfs are working correctly, but I can't any sound on the HDMI port (MBO's) - video is working correctly.
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post #477 of 2308 Old 04-11-2008, 07:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

There are two reasons... These are not official statements from CyberLink, so take it as it is.

Thanks for the clarification. I will take time to let Sony, Microsoft, Cyberlink, Dolby, DTS, and others know that I will not purchase any True HD or DTS HD Master software (e.g. BluRay discs) or hardware until these problems are fully resolved. I want htpc playback all channels without downsampling. I will not buy a PS3 or standalone player to view and hear non-downsampled material. I believe manufacturers need to be pressured to expiditiously resolve these "problems" - anything less could be considered fraud.

Again, thanks for taking the time to clarify this sorry state of affairs.
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post #478 of 2308 Old 04-11-2008, 08:35 AM
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I will take time to let Sony, Microsoft, Cyberlink, Dolby, DTS, and others know that I will not purchase any True HD or DTS HD Master software (e.g. BluRay discs) or hardware until these problems are fully resolved

wow... I can here their boots shaking... give it a rest, this "instant-gratification" "I want it now" "you owe me" generation is unbelievable

Jim White
St. Petersburg, FL
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post #479 of 2308 Old 04-11-2008, 10:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mmesh View Post

I was away some time from this thread but things a bit confusing for me now...

Is there any one in this thread that owns ASUS M3N78-EMH HDMI board?

Has any one of You owning such a board had any luck getting any sound through HDMI connector through to the AVR (Windows XP SP2 preferably)?
What is Your working software setup (OS version, drivers, drivers settings, CP settings, etc.)?

Hope someone can say something exact and not theoretical about these problems.

I so far had zero luck making it work. I tested all hardware components (cables and such) of the setup and every one of them for themselfs are working correctly, but I can't any sound on the HDMI port (MBO's) - video is working correctly.

I do have this motherboard.

I couldn't even get the video play well, it stutters like hell.
Which drivers and BIOS are you using ?

As for the Audio - I tried to connect it to an Onkyo 605 AV receiver but with no luck. I only managed to get 2ch PCM and DD/DTS bitstream through the HDMI port.

Moreover, unlike the people here with the ASUS P5E-VM HDMI motherboard, in this case it seems that Vista doesn't read the EDID of the receiver, because the supported sampling rates are the same, whether there is something connected to the HDMI port or not.

Cheers,
Jonathan Patya.
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post #480 of 2308 Old 04-12-2008, 08:34 PM
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Originally Posted by jimwhite View Post

wow... I can here their boots shaking... give it a rest, this "instant-gratification" "I want it now" "you owe me" generation is unbelievable

To the contrary; the fact is these crooks thrive on "instant-gratification", its the only way they can survive. And yes, if you were stupid enough to purchase their BD disks, MBs and PCs they do owe you! After all isn't that what was promised, HD video & audio. When I tried to build a 690G HTPC in Dec from the parts I purchased in Oct. I can assure you every piece I purchased claimed it was BD/HD DVD compatible! I've complained to every mfg involved and won't every buy their products again. Nor will a MS product ever run on one of my personal CPUs again. If people had any sense.....ah never mind, I'm probably waisting my time. Linux, there, I got my plug in.

What happened to the days when you purchase an item and it would operate as the manufacturer advertised. As a 52 year old man, I can remember when the American public held corporations liable for the products they sold!

The problem isn't just limited to this particular industry either! If everyone would agree to stop buying MS products, I guarantee you things would change. If people were willing to target one major oil company and stop buying gasoline from them, the price of gas would also drop like a rock. Unfortunately we've become a society dependent on immediate gratification that would rather sit around on our lazy asses and criticize the people willing to stand up for their rights. A pretty sad state of affairs if you ask me.....

I apologize, I usually try to keep my post positive but in this case I can find nothing positive to say about the corporate greed our society is faced with today. And the post I quoted is a great example of just how it works!
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