GeForce 8200 - 8 Channel LPCM Output Fully Supported!! - Page 25 - AVS Forum
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post #721 of 2308 Old 05-13-2008, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by hifiaudio2 View Post

ah ok - so are there any gotchas on the g35? Why are people waiting for the g45?

I already have a q6700 processor and plenty of ram so a switch to a g35 system is no big deal.


I thought it was because the G35 didn't hardware accelerate h.264 files, and that the G45 was speculated to bitstream HD Audio?

Am I way off here?
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post #722 of 2308 Old 05-13-2008, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by hifiaudio2 View Post

Great, thanks.

One more q: Does the g35 support bitstreaming of those codecs, or does it encode all three to LPCM?

I believe the bitstream limitation is a software limitation, based on a lack of a secure audio path. Whether the G35 really has a "secure audio path" is unclear to me, as I'm not sure what the actual issue is (HDMI with HDCP should be secure, but apparently it's not).

So yes, you will LPCM everything over, which is identical to bitstreaming (with the additional limitation I mentioned earlier of going from 24 to 16 bits, which is audibly not noticable by most people, if anyone).

So the G45 might have something that supports a secure audio path (and therefore bitstreaming), but there is almost no information out there. Only thing I've read is that ArcSoft and Cyberlink have committed to work to make this possible.

Reality is right now that none of the software players could bitstream today even if the secure path existed.

(Also, it should be obvious, but you'll need AnyDVD HD right now if you plan to play off your hard drive.)

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post #723 of 2308 Old 05-13-2008, 11:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hifiaudio2 View Post

Great, thanks.

One more q: Does the g35 support bitstreaming of those codecs, or does it encode all three to LPCM?

AbFabMag fails to mention that Denon receiver owners won't get multich LPCM on the G35 due to a bug in the Denon EDID data. If you have a Denon, the G35 isn't an option, which is why I'm waiting for the 8200. G35 doesn't send bitstream HD audio, software HD player decodes the bitstream and sends it LPCM.

If I didn't have a Denon I'd have a G35 already.
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post #724 of 2308 Old 05-13-2008, 11:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lakaw View Post

I thought it was because the G35 didn't hardware accelerate h.264 files, and that the G45 was speculated to bitstream HD Audio?

Am I way off here?

Doesn't really matter if you have enough CPU power, which the previous posted does. I have a 6750 which was more than enough. (Although I've upgraded to a Q9300 just for the heck of it.)

I don't think HA is that big a deal with the overpowered CPU's nowadays.

(See my previous post on bitstreaming.)

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post #725 of 2308 Old 05-13-2008, 11:36 AM
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or does it encode all three to LPCM?

that would be decode

Quote:


Doesn't really matter if you have enough CPU power

Unless you're trying to keep the heat down in a small box

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I believe the bitstream limitation is a software limitation, based on a lack of a secure audio path. Whether the G35 really has a "secure audio path" is unclear to me, as I'm not sure what the actual issue is (HDMI with HDCP should be secure, but apparently it's not).

Isn't it ironic... they'll allow LPCM which can be captured directly and won't allow Bitstream which is encoded and encrypted....


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post #726 of 2308 Old 05-13-2008, 11:45 AM
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I was wondering if the 8200 boards need a phenom processor to get the extra video processing like the AMD 780g?
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post #727 of 2308 Old 05-13-2008, 11:49 AM
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I was wondering if the 8200 boards need a phenom processor to get the extra video processing like the AMD 780g?

Shouldn't..... 8x00 hardware accerates all HiDef codecs...


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post #728 of 2308 Old 05-13-2008, 11:52 AM
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Yes it does but ive read on numerous sites including this one that 780g chipset benefits with a Phenom processor instead of a regular processor.

"HyperTransport 3.0 capability (5.2GT/s+ interface) is included and is extremely important in extracting every last ounce of performance out of the HD 3200 graphics core. AMD recommends the Phenom processor family (Ed: not just to sell out stocks of B2 processors) in order to fully take advantage of the performance offered by the HD 3200. With a Phenom onboard, the HD 3200 will perform post-processing on high-definition content and it makes a difference in image quality and fluidity during 1080p playback. In fact, the graphics core is so sensitive to the HT interconnect link speed that simply raising the standard 1.8GHz speed to 2.2GHz on our 9600BE resulted in measurable performance differences in a few applications."

From Anandtech
http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets...spx?i=3258&p=2
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post #729 of 2308 Old 05-13-2008, 12:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stoked View Post

AbFabMag fails to mention that Denon receiver owners won't get multich LPCM on the G35 due to a bug in the Denon EDID data. If you have a Denon, the G35 isn't an option, which is why I'm waiting for the 8200. G35 doesn't send bitstream HD audio, software HD player decodes the bitstream and sends it LPCM.

If I didn't have a Denon I'd have a G35 already.

You sure this is on all current Denons? Is it specific to a Denon interfacing with a pc chipset? I have the Denon 5308 and no issues with hdmi on my current pc (not doing any movie playback on that), my ps3, or JVC projector.
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post #730 of 2308 Old 05-13-2008, 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by hifiaudio2 View Post

You sure this is on all current Denons? Is it specific to a Denon interfacing with a pc chipset? I have the Denon 5308 and no issues with hdmi on my current pc (not doing any movie playback on that), my ps3, or JVC projector.

The problem is specific to multi-channel LPCM via HDMI. You can get 2channel just not multi-channel unless Intel has upgraded their drivers since I last looked. The posts by Archibael didn't sound too promising, he said he has brought it up to the Intel dev team but they are of the opinion that Denon should fix their EDID data and rightly so. It just leaves us Denon owners out in the cold since Denon refuses to admit their hardware has a problem. The PS3 doesn't rely on the receiving HDMI device EDID info for audio output capabilities, you can merely force multi-channel LPCM out which is why it works fine. My old HD-A1 HD-DVD player worked fine this way as well. However, the G35 drivers will not allow you to force multi-channel LPCM output, the last I looked. Search the G35 and even this thread for more info.

PS. And no Denon hasn't fixed this in their latest receivers as far as I know.
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post #731 of 2308 Old 05-13-2008, 12:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hifiaudio2 View Post

You sure this is on all current Denons? Is it specific to a Denon interfacing with a pc chipset? I have the Denon 5308 and no issues with hdmi on my current pc (not doing any movie playback on that), my ps3, or JVC projector.

I don't know for sure, but it seems like an issue with all Denon's for PC audio over HDMI.

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post #732 of 2308 Old 05-13-2008, 12:35 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hifiaudio2 View Post

You sure this is on all current Denons? Is it specific to a Denon interfacing with a pc chipset? I have the Denon 5308 and no issues with hdmi on my current pc (not doing any movie playback on that), my ps3, or JVC projector.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stoked View Post

The problem is specific to multi-channel LPCM via HDMI. You can get 2channel just not multi-channel unless Intel has upgraded their drivers since I last looked. The posts by Archibael didn't sound too promising, he said he has brought it up to the Intel dev team but they are of the opinion that Denon should fix their EDID data and rightly so. It just leaves us Denon owners out in the cold since Denon refuses to admit their hardware has a problem. The PS3 doesn't rely on the receiving HDMI device EDID info for audio output capabilities, you can merely force multi-channel LPCM out which is why it works fine. My old HD-A1 HD-DVD player worked fine this way as well. However, the G35 drivers will not allow you to force multi-channel LPCM output, the last I looked. Search the G35 and even this thread for more info.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AbMagFab View Post

I don't know for sure, but it seems like an issue with all Denon's for PC audio over HDMI.

I brought the issue to DenonJeff's attention. He looked into it and decided it was something the engineers in Japan had to be involved in fixing. He will let me know what they tell him.
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post #733 of 2308 Old 05-13-2008, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by joeyg2391 View Post

I was wondering if the 8200 boards need a phenom processor to get the extra video processing like the AMD 780g?

I'm also curious about this matter. It would be great if it doesn't need a phenom for full post processing, but I doubt it. This will decide If I'm going to use a 4850E or the coming Phenom 9100e.
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post #734 of 2308 Old 05-13-2008, 01:51 PM
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That is exactly what im debating. Hopefully someone here has the answer to this
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post #735 of 2308 Old 05-13-2008, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by cybrsage View Post

I brought the issue to DenonJeff's attention. He looked into it and decided it was something the engineers in Japan had to be involved in fixing. He will let me know what they tell him.

I just got an email from Gefen stating that my back ordered DVI Detective Plus would not ship until 5/28. The DVI Detective Plus should be a fix for Denon owners.

I don't have a Denon, but I expect that having continuity of EDID data to the PC's HDMI port will provide me with other benefits.

The older DVI Detective (or cheaper Monoprice DVI Doctor) might work, provided AnyDVD is used and the user can flash the device from a setup with good EDID data. In contrast, the DVI Detective Plus ships with HTPC EDID profiles and handles HDCP.

-Dave
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post #736 of 2308 Old 05-13-2008, 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted by AbMagFab View Post


(Also, it should be obvious, but you'll need AnyDVD HD right now if you plan to play off your hard drive.)

Even with AnyDVD are you able to play back Blu-Ray back ups from your hard drive? If so, what player? TMT? Last I heard, this feature was pulled from PowerDVD 7.3 mid cycle and hasn't appeared in any other player.

(Feel free to point me to a thread or FAQ if I'm hopelessly out of the loop.)


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post #737 of 2308 Old 05-13-2008, 04:10 PM
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Originally Posted by nathan_h View Post

Even with AnyDVD are you able to play back Blu-Ray back ups from your hard drive? If so, what player? TMT? Last I heard, this feature was pulled from PowerDVD 7.3 mid cycle and hasn't appeared in any other player.

(Feel free to point me to a thread or FAQ if I'm hopelessly out of the loop.)

To play back from a hard drive using a recent version of PowerDVD, you need to rip to an ISO file and use a utility like Daemon Tools. I believe that other players (Nero Showtime, Corel WinDVD 9, and Arcsoft TMT) can still all play from Blu-ray rips from a folder.

-Dave
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post #738 of 2308 Old 05-13-2008, 04:27 PM
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Originally Posted by nathan_h View Post

Even with AnyDVD are you able to play back Blu-Ray back ups from your hard drive? If so, what player? TMT? Last I heard, this feature was pulled from PowerDVD 7.3 mid cycle and hasn't appeared in any other player.

You can still use PowerDVD 7.3Ultra to play back-ups of blu-rays, but you don't use AnyDVD to back them up. Use ImageBurn to make an iso of the disc, mount the image using the newest DaemonsTool and play through PowerDVD. It takes about an hour to backup a 50GB blu-ray with my Lite-On 4x Blu-ray drive.

And now my current situation...

I bought a ECS GF8200A last friday, current steup is as follows:

AMD X2 5000+ Black Edition
4x1GB OCZ 800
2xRAID0 WD 80GB
1x WD 500GB
Coolermaster 650w psu
Gigabyte 8500GT
Onkyo TX-SR705

I installed Vista64, used the drivers from the ECS website, but I was unable to get any audio from HDMI and no Hybrid SLi. After trying multiple drivers with no luck, pulled the 8500GT and installed display driver 174.74. Finally got multi-channel working which sounded great. I decided to try putting the 8500GT to see if Hybrid SLi would work and I lost the multi-channel, again. There has to be some sort of bug in the drivers or bios, the sound issue I'm having is strange and my video playback isn't smooth for Blu-ray or DVD's. I doubt its a resources issue because my cpu load is very low during playback. So now I am pulling the 8500GT and re-installing all nvidia drivers to try to get multi-channel back.

Thanks to Bahn Yuki and mry110 for their help in this impossible task.
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post #739 of 2308 Old 05-13-2008, 05:25 PM
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No HDMI signal problem solved. I didn't have the HDMI output enabled in the display settings. No video means no audio either. Next challenge is to get Hybrid SLi to work as well. Hope this helps someone from future headaches.
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post #740 of 2308 Old 05-13-2008, 05:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joeyg2391 View Post

I was wondering if the 8200 boards need a phenom processor to get the extra video processing like the AMD 780g?

From AnandTech nForce 780a Review
Quote:


NVIDIA integrates their PureVideo HD capabilities into the 780a. PureVideo HD offers hardware acceleration for decoding VC-1, H.264 (AVC), WMV, and MPEG-2 sources up to 1080p resolutions. Advanced de-interlacing is available when using a Phenom processor. We generally found CPU utilization rates and output quality to be near or equal to that of the 9600GT.

This statement should apply to GeForce 8200/8300 because it is the same graphics core as nForce 780a.
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post #741 of 2308 Old 05-13-2008, 06:24 PM
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Originally Posted by cybrsage View Post

I brought the issue to DenonJeff's attention. He looked into it and decided it was something the engineers in Japan had to be involved in fixing. He will let me know what they tell him.

Good to hear you got through to them. Unfortunately, even if Denon did fix this I'd imagine they wouldn't bother fixing it for my 3806 which is 2 generations old now. Like I said before, if I wasn't a Denon owner I'd have the G35 in my living room. Keep us posting though.
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post #742 of 2308 Old 05-13-2008, 06:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nismozcar View Post

You can still use PowerDVD 7.3Ultra to play back-ups of blu-rays, but you don't use AnyDVD to back them up. Use ImageBurn to make an iso of the disc, mount the image using the newest DaemonsTool and play through PowerDVD. It takes about an hour to backup a 50GB blu-ray with my Lite-On 4x Blu-ray drive.

And now my current situation...

I bought a ECS GF8200A last friday, current steup is as follows:

AMD X2 5000+ Black Edition
4x1GB OCZ 800
2xRAID0 WD 80GB
1x WD 500GB
Coolermaster 650w psu
Gigabyte 8500GT
Onkyo TX-SR705

I installed Vista64, used the drivers from the ECS website, but I was unable to get any audio from HDMI and no Hybrid SLi. After trying multiple drivers with no luck, pulled the 8500GT and installed display driver 174.74. Finally got multi-channel working which sounded great. I decided to try putting the 8500GT to see if Hybrid SLi would work and I lost the multi-channel, again. There has to be some sort of bug in the drivers or bios, the sound issue I'm having is strange and my video playback isn't smooth for Blu-ray or DVD's. I doubt its a resources issue because my cpu load is very low during playback. So now I am pulling the 8500GT and re-installing all nvidia drivers to try to get multi-channel back.

Thanks to Bahn Yuki and mry110 for their help in this impossible task.

You're in Portland and you drive a Z? Hahah I have a 2004 350Z, we should compare systems some time. Anyway not to derail this thread, I used Nvidia's drivers all throughout. I didn't use Asus's stuff at all.

To Abmagfab, my SONY STR-DG810 won't matrix anything PCM...I'm pretty sure it's getting uncompressed PCM. I still have an open invite to all in the Willametter Valley area...
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post #743 of 2308 Old 05-13-2008, 08:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DPlettner View Post

I just got an email from Gefen stating that my back ordered DVI Detective Plus would not ship until 5/28. The DVI Detective Plus should be a fix for Denon owners.

I don't have a Denon, but I expect that having continuity of EDID data to the PC's HDMI port will provide me with other benefits.

The older DVI Detective (or cheaper Monoprice DVI Doctor) might work, provided AnyDVD is used and the user can flash the device from a setup with good EDID data. In contrast, the DVI Detective Plus ships with HTPC EDID profiles and handles HDCP.

-Dave

I got the same email and since this has been delayed so many times I am really wondering if they have a product. I don't have a lot of confidence in Gefen.
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post #744 of 2308 Old 05-14-2008, 04:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AbMagFab View Post

I believe the bitstream limitation is a software limitation, based on a lack of a secure audio path. Whether the G35 really has a "secure audio path" is unclear to me, as I'm not sure what the actual issue is (HDMI with HDCP should be secure, but apparently it's not).

The issue is in getting the audio to the HDMI port securely; once it's there it's considered secure. It currently runs over the HD Audio bus, which is unencrypted and hence not considered secure.

Quote:


So the G45 might have something that supports a secure audio path (and therefore bitstreaming), but there is almost no information out there. Only thing I've read is that ArcSoft and Cyberlink have committed to work to make this possible.

Maybe. Jury's currently out. G45 is supposed to support "PAVP", but it's not clear to me (and Microsoft won't answer) whether PAVP is considered secure enough for AACS, or whether "PAVP 2.0" will be necessary first.

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post #745 of 2308 Old 05-14-2008, 04:59 AM
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Originally Posted by jimwhite View Post

Isn't it ironic... they'll allow LPCM which can be captured directly and won't allow Bitstream which is encoded and encrypted....


You sure Bitstream is encrypted-- over and above the AACS stuff, I mean? Thought it was encoded only.

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post #746 of 2308 Old 05-14-2008, 05:09 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DPlettner View Post

I just got an email from Gefen stating that my back ordered DVI Detective Plus would not ship until 5/28. The DVI Detective Plus should be a fix for Denon owners.

I don't have a Denon, but I expect that having continuity of EDID data to the PC's HDMI port will provide me with other benefits.

The older DVI Detective (or cheaper Monoprice DVI Doctor) might work, provided AnyDVD is used and the user can flash the device from a setup with good EDID data. In contrast, the DVI Detective Plus ships with HTPC EDID profiles and handles HDCP.

-Dave

I am probably going to get one of the Plus, just to ensure continuity of HDMI data. As you said, simply setup a preset EDID and it never changes, no matter what you turn on / off, etc.

Let me know when your actually arrives, so I know they are available.
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post #747 of 2308 Old 05-14-2008, 06:57 AM
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I fixed my DVD playback issue again (I think), and managed to fix playback through VMC. There is a small program called VMCC.EXE that can change your default Vista Media Center codec. I currently have a demo of TheaterTek installed on my computer, which installs an nVidia codec (it will be interesting to see if this is still available to me after the trial is up). I switched my video and audio codec to the nVidia one, and I can now play DVD's in VMC.

I also read that the nVidia drivers have a horrible time with multi-threading for you multi CPU folks such as myself. This apparently can be fixed two ways, you can change the affinity, or you can bump up the processing (have no idea why this works) in the nVidia control panel. You need to go into the television color settings (the one with the inverse telecline check box) area and bump up the edge effects and what ever the other one is to 25%.

Doing a combination of these two "fixes" seems to give me smooth playback with regular DVDs (and they look beautiful).
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post #748 of 2308 Old 05-14-2008, 08:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mry110 View Post

I fixed my DVD playback issue again (I think), and managed to fix playback through VMC. There is a small program called VMCC.EXE that can change your default Vista Media Center codec. I currently have a demo of TheaterTek installed on my computer, which installs an nVidia codec (it will be interesting to see if this is still available to me after the trial is up). I switched my video and audio codec to the nVidia one, and I can now play DVD's in VMC.

I also read that the nVidia drivers have a horrible time with multi-threading for you multi CPU folks such as myself. This apparently can be fixed two ways, you can change the affinity, or you can bump up the processing (have no idea why this works) in the nVidia control panel. You need to go into the television color settings (the one with the inverse telecline check box) area and bump up the edge effects and what ever the other one is to 25%.

Doing a combination of these two "fixes" seems to give me smooth playback with regular DVDs (and they look beautiful).

any reason why you want to play DVDs through VMC? I'm just curious cause I don't use it at all, MPC is my main movie player. What benefits aside from streaming to extenders does VMC provide?
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post #749 of 2308 Old 05-14-2008, 10:19 AM
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The main reason I use VMC/XPMCE is for the nice UI, and primarily for this addon called MyMovies2
http://www.mymovies.dk/

It can handle all media types, including automounting of iso's,img,etc . Check out the screens.

Populates everythign via IMDB assuming you have 1 folder per movie labelled correctly. Pulls ratings, actors, summaries, covers, etc.
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post #750 of 2308 Old 05-14-2008, 10:26 AM
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Just found an interesting blog post:

http://softwareblogs.intel.com/2008/...e-theater-pcs/

For you intel guys.

And info on those who have issues with Denon Receivers:

http://softwareblogs.intel.com/2008/...-av-receivers/
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