GeForce 8200 - 8 Channel LPCM Output Fully Supported!! - Page 6 - AVS Forum
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post #151 of 2308 Old 03-02-2008, 10:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jim.bennett View Post

So to summarize what I think I have understood after reading through the thread, the Geforce 8200 IGP supports 7.1 LPCM over HDMI. Bitstream output is NOT supported.

However you still cannot get full (not downsampled) decoded Dolby TrueHD or DTS HD-MA from the PC until a software player can decode it and send it without downsampling.

PowerDVD from what I understand decodes them but downsamples the output. Are there any software players that can decode them and NOT downsample them for output as LPCM over HDMI?

Good summary. To (not really) answer your question:

Probably Arcsoft. Some say PowerDVD no longer downsamples. Neither seem to have been very transparent about this issue, and user testing is tough to do because the hardware and drivers haven't existed (to test high rez LPCM output via HDMI).

I hope my skepticism is wrong, or uniformed of the latest developments. I'm dying for this solution, as well.


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post #152 of 2308 Old 03-02-2008, 10:30 AM
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the easiest thing any of the manufacturers could do is to send the non-downsampled undecoded audio out via hdmi or spdif/optical and let the AVR do the decoding? Is this and HDCP/DMCA issue then?
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post #153 of 2308 Old 03-02-2008, 01:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Speqtre View Post

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the easiest thing any of the manufacturers could do is to send the non-downsampled undecoded audio out via hdmi or spdif/optical and let the AVR do the decoding? Is this and HDCP/DMCA issue then?

Easy =/ possible

The media industry and more importantly, their attorneys, are very concerned about the high quality audio and video signals coming from HD media going anywhere that they cannot control. They are making it very difficult for users to use their purchased product in ways outside of the simple BD player hooked directly to HDTV model.
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post #154 of 2308 Old 03-02-2008, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by mcnabney View Post

Easy =/ possible

The media industry and more importantly, their attorneys, are very concerned about the high quality audio and video signals coming from HD media going anywhere that they cannot control. They are making it very difficult for users to use their purchased product in ways outside of the simple BD player hooked directly to HDTV model.

And even with a standalone BD player it is not possible to listen to DTS MA
These truly are mystifying times...
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post #155 of 2308 Old 03-02-2008, 04:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jim.bennett View Post

So to summarize what I think I have understood after reading through the thread, the Geforce 8200 IGP supports 7.1 LPCM over HDMI. Bitstream output is NOT supported.

However you still cannot get full (not downsampled) decoded Dolby TrueHD or DTS HD-MA from the PC until a software player can decode it and send it without downsampling.

PowerDVD from what I understand decodes them but downsamples the output. Are there any software players that can decode them and NOT downsample them for output as LPCM over HDMI?

More precisely, unless the audio path is protected (and in fact the protected audio path is nonexistent right now in PC),

- AACS-encrypted contents must be downresolutioned to 16-bit/48kHz.

Quote:


A Licensed Player shall not pass, or direct to be passed Decrypted AACS Content to a digital output except:
1.4.1 A digital output of audio, or of the audio portion of other forms of Decrypted AACS Content, in compressed audio format (such as AC3) or in Linear PCM format in which the transmitted information is sampled at no more than 48 kHz and no more than 16 bits.
1.4.2 An output delineated in Table D1, AACS Authorized Digital Outputs, in accordance with any associated restrictions and obligations specified
therein;

- Unencrypted contents (including contents decrypted by AnyDVD HD) need not be downresolutioned, but as a matter of fact are downresolutioned to 16-bit/48kHz by PowerDVD. This a bug CyberLink acknowledged (PowerDVD audio downsampling explained) and has not been fixed yet (?).

Quote:


When asked why PowerDVD downsamples HD audio from both Blu-ray and HD DVD discs to 48KHz / 16-bit, Chen responded by saying that "digital output without protection is not possible due to AACS requirement. Digital and analogue output with protection (HDMI) is also not possible due to lack of an internal secure audio path in a Windows PC."

"We are currently working with Realtek to support their proprietary interface for encryption of audio bus. Once completed, we will not longer need to downsample the audio. This will be provided for free to end-user for upgrade."

This didn't really clear up the downsampling situation though because, as far as we're aware all audio, regardless of encryption, is downsampled. We therefore pressed Chen to clear up the speculation. "I think this is a mistake," he said, "we never intended to pass this message. I think there might be some bug in our program that downsamples everything. That is not our intent. We only need to down-sample premium content (AACS, CPRM, etc)."

This prompted us to ask whether there is a requirement for AACS in a PC when a disc or file is not encrypted. Chen told us that the unencrypted scenario is not mandated by AACS so shouldn't be included in the downsampling.

We inquired further about the "secure internal audio path": is this because of Microsoft not providing one and/or sound card companies not providing a compatible driver? Chen informed us that there isn't an industry standard (defined by Microsoft or someone else) that makes the encryption/decryption path between software and audio driver secure. Cyberlink have to enable one chip after another which takes a considerable amount of time working with sound card providers, Microsoft and checking that it satisfies the AACS mandate.

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post #156 of 2308 Old 03-02-2008, 09:38 PM
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So let me get this straight... and put things into perspective.
Some say PowerDVD no longer downsamples, but others are sceptical. I say, if you can't hear the difference and be able to tell what it's doing, is there a good reason to get excited about this issue. Hey, I like little indicator LEDs on my AV receiver as much as the next guy, and I do want the best audio possible... but if it's not even audibly distinguishable?
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post #157 of 2308 Old 03-03-2008, 01:06 AM - Thread Starter
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The importance of LPCM HDMI audio reduces to the two points:

1. It is capable of sending 24-bit/192kHz sound. This is partly ruined by the PowerDVD bug. But you don't have to use PowerDVD to get full resolution sound. And the distinction between 16/48 and 24/92 does not matter for the majority of users ...

2. It is capable of sending multichannel sound. This is more important for the majority of users. S/PDIF sometimes results in only stereo sound (not every source has DD or DTS soundtrack) and relying on DTS Connect or DD Live means you are restricted to a small number of motherboards (mainly GIGABYTE brand). The only other method to get multichannel sound from ever source is use analog out that often requires a pricey sound card.
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post #158 of 2308 Old 03-03-2008, 01:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fitbrit View Post

So let me get this straight... and put things into perspective.
Some say PowerDVD no longer downsamples, but others are sceptical. I say, if you can't hear the difference and be able to tell what it's doing, is there a good reason to get excited about this issue. Hey, I like little indicator LEDs on my AV receiver as much as the next guy, and I do want the best audio possible... but if it's not even audibly distinguishable?

If you cannot hear the difference, then it won't impact you. Just like for folks who cannot hear the difference between iTunes downloads and a CD, the difference is immaterial. For others, the difference is meaningful -- and audible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

The importance of LPCM HDMI audio reduces to the two points:

1. It is capable of sending 24-bit/192kHz sound. This is partly ruined by the PowerDVD bug. But you don't have to use PowerDVD to get full resolution sound. And the distinction between 16/48 and 24/92 does not matter for the majority of users ...

2. It is capable of sending multichannel sound. This is more important for the majority of users. S/PDIF sometimes results in only stereo sound (not every source has DD or DTS soundtrack) and relying on DTS Connect or DD Live means you are restricted to a small number of motherboards (mainly GIGABYTE brand). The only other method to get multichannel sound from ever source is use analog out that often requires a pricey sound card.

How can you get 16/48 multichannel out of an HTPC in digital form? Heck, I'd prefer the higher res, but even full 16/48 lossless LPCM would be cool.


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post #159 of 2308 Old 03-03-2008, 03:21 AM
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From what I've heard PowerDVD isn't downsampling because of a bug. They are doing this because there is no way to determine if the audio channel is secure and to avoid losing their license to play this media, they are being very conservative. Microsoft is working with them to come up with a better solution.
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post #160 of 2308 Old 03-03-2008, 03:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by omholt View Post

From what I've heard PowerDVD isn't downsampling because of a bug. They are doing this because there is no way to determine if the audio channel is secure and to avoid losing their license to play this media, they are being very conservative. Microsoft is working with them to come up with a better solution.

How about MS just taking over and giving us native support in WMP?
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post #161 of 2308 Old 03-03-2008, 05:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by omholt View Post

From what I've heard PowerDVD isn't downsampling because of a bug. They are doing this because there is no way to determine if the audio channel is secure and to avoid losing their license to play this media, they are being very conservative. Microsoft is working with them to come up with a better solution.

The Bug with Power DVD is that it downsamples audio from Unprotected Sources. If there is no DRM involved then there is no need to worry about the protected path.
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post #162 of 2308 Old 03-03-2008, 06:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nathan_h View Post

If you cannot hear the difference, then it won't impact you. Just like for folks who cannot hear the difference between iTunes downloads and a CD, the difference is immaterial. For others, the difference is meaningful -- and audible.


Oh I agree with you 100%. It's just that I would have thought that the difference would be great enough that people should be able to tell whether PowerDVD is downsampling or not. For example, I can easily tell the difference between a 480p and a 720p feed to my 1080p TV. I'd be able to tell which is which without needing confirmation.
I guess all we need is one of these people who are more aurally more discerning to tell us whether the downsampling has gone.

Renethx
Personally, I've had no problems with mutlichannel sound out via spidf (in XP). My Xplosion sound card+AC3Filter also does passthrough of DTS/AC3 automatically when the source contians such a soundtrack. I can't wait to hear the lossless soundtracks when I'm capable of doing so.
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post #163 of 2308 Old 03-03-2008, 07:06 AM
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Scenario:

- BD with TrueHD 5.1 sound track
- Sound card with 8-channel analog out connected to pre-amp
- PowerDVD player, set to 8-channel in the sound settings (no DTS/DD)

1) If I play the BD TrueHD 5.1 sound track, I get 5.1 channels out of my pre-pro, but of course since it's analog out, I lose all the matrixing capabilities of my pre-pro, and so my rear channels are silent

2) If I use PDVD DTS:Neo6 or DD:PLIIx, PDVD will perform the matrixing, and I get sound from the rear channel.


Quick questions:

a) When I have PDVD set to 8-channel with no DTS/DD, am I getting the best sound possible? That is, am I getting the TrueHD 6 channels of sound, uncompressed, and untouched by PDVD (except for decoding the TrueHD soundtrack)?

b) When I set PDVD to DTS:Neo/DD:PLIIx, is PDVD using DDLive/DTSConnect, and recompressing TureHD soundtrack, or simply matrixing the rear channels? If it's recompressing, while that would be only minimal sound difference, it's still a recompression, right?

Thanks!
-Mark

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post #164 of 2308 Old 03-03-2008, 07:21 AM
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WHEN THE HECK CAN I BUY ONE OF THESE! I CAN'T WAIT ANYMORE!

(This MB has my tech-geek side antsy in anticipation...)

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post #165 of 2308 Old 03-03-2008, 07:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AbMagFab View Post

WHEN THE HECK CAN I BUY ONE OF THESE! I CAN'T WAIT ANYMORE!

(This MB has my tech-geek side antsy in anticipation...)

LOL, despite my comments, I'm in the same boat as you. I almost upgraded my HTPC over Christmas, but then I decided to wait until there was some revolutionary (or at least a big leap forward) technology about to hit the shelves.
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post #166 of 2308 Old 03-03-2008, 07:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AbMagFab View Post

WHEN THE HECK CAN I BUY ONE OF THESE! I CAN'T WAIT ANYMORE!

(This MB has my tech-geek side antsy in anticipation...)

Patience grasshopper-san! If the experience with the 9600GT repeats, they may be available tomorrow - what say you Renethx?
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post #167 of 2308 Old 03-03-2008, 07:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fitbrit View Post

Oh I agree with you 100%. It's just that I would have thought that the difference would be great enough that people should be able to tell whether PowerDVD is downsampling or not. ... I guess all we need is one of these people who are more aurally more discerning to tell us whether the downsampling has gone.

No longer have the reference, but I remember reading an article somewhere about a blind listening test and even audiophiles could not discern between DVD Audio downsampled to 16-bit/44.1 kHz and the original, higher bit-depth/frequency (don't remember what is was precisely). There is certainly a benefit to having uncompressed audio, but I don't think high-frequency sampling has much use for playback.
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post #168 of 2308 Old 03-03-2008, 09:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by omholt View Post

From what I've heard PowerDVD isn't downsampling because of a bug.

Cyberlink PowerDVD Product Manager, Louis Chen, said, it's a program bug (PowerDVD audio downsampling explained).

Quote:


I think there might be some bug in our program that downsamples everything. That is not our intent. We only need to down-sample premium content (AACS, CPRM, etc).

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post #169 of 2308 Old 03-03-2008, 09:13 AM
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PDVD 8 is at CeBit, maybe one of their spokespersons or employees will say something about it.

May I add to the chorus....when's this thing released?
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post #170 of 2308 Old 03-03-2008, 09:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nathan_h View Post

How can you get 16/48 multichannel out of an HTPC in digital form? Heck, I'd prefer the higher res, but even full 16/48 lossless LPCM would be cool.

I am not sure what you mean by "how". I can't say the actual settings until I get a MCP78 mb, but it should be straightforward to get multichannel LPCM audio over HDMI from, say PowerDVD. Select "HDMI Audio" as the sound playback device. In PowerDVD, select "8 channel" (don't ask me details now), and you should get 8 channel LPCM over HDMI.

Yeah, it's cool. Unfotunately only a small number of people realize it (despite of this thread) and the rest go for AMD 780G ... And HybridPower is a gamer's dream (?) ...
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post #171 of 2308 Old 03-03-2008, 09:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fitbrit View Post

Renethx
Personally, I've had no problems with mutlichannel sound out via spidf (in XP).

Your sound card supports DTS Connect and DDL and should have no problem.

The problem (i.e. only 2-channel audio from S/PDIF) may occur when the sound device does not support DTS Connect or DDL. Some BD/HD-DVD movies do not have DTS or DD5.1 as the primary soundtrack. Suppose that the BD movie has 5.1-channel Dolby TrueHD as a secondary audiotrack and 2-channel LPCM as the primary soudtrack. PowerDVD Ultra is able to decode 5.1-channel Dolby TrueHD into 5.1-channel LPCM audio, but it cannot be sent through S/PDIF without first encoded to DTS or DD5.1 by DTS Connect or DDL. Instead, you'll get only 2-channel LPCM audio through S/PDIF.
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post #172 of 2308 Old 03-03-2008, 11:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

I am not sure what you mean by "how". I can't say the actual settings until I get a MCP78 mb, but it should be straightforward to get multichannel LPCM audio over HDMI from, say PowerDVD. Select "HDMI Audio" as the sound playback device. In PowerDVD, select "8 channel" (don't ask me details now), and you should get 8 channel LPCM over HDMI.

Yeah, it's cool. Unfotunately only a small number of people realize it (despite of this thread) and the rest go for AMD 780G ... And HybridPower is a gamer's dream (?) ...

Sorry for the confusion. My question "how" means, in part, "What hardware?" Is there really an HDMI solution for HTPC that can output LPCM, and not just lossy bitstream? I realize this thread is about one solution -- that is not yet released -- but I inferred from the post that someone was already doing this, with some other hardware.


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post #173 of 2308 Old 03-03-2008, 12:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nathan_h View Post

Sorry for the confusion. My question "how" means, in part, "What hardware?" Is there really an HDMI solution for HTPC that can output LPCM, and not just lossy bitstream? I realize this thread is about one solution -- that is not yet released -- but I inferred from the post that someone was already doing this, with some other hardware.

Any Intel chipset since 965 Express is capable of sending 8-channel/24-bit/192kHz LPCM over HDMI (with an ADD2 HDMI card or a HDMI SDVO device). Many people succeeded in getting multichannel LPCM over HDMI with ASUS P5E-VM HDMI motherboard. Please read this thread: Intel G35 motherboards.
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post #174 of 2308 Old 03-03-2008, 12:27 PM
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I was following that thread for several months, but it seemed stuck without a solution. Returning to is just now I read through pages of people with problems, but didn't hear of any successes. I'll take your word for it that it's in there

Hopefully this nVidia solution will be much more stable and user-friendly.


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post #175 of 2308 Old 03-03-2008, 02:14 PM
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Question: If I install an NVIDIA 8800GT card into an 8200 or 8300 motherboard with HDMI, will I be able to combine the video output of the 8800GT into the HDMI output of the motherboard along with LPCM 8 channel audio?
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post #176 of 2308 Old 03-03-2008, 02:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by maxleung View Post

Question: If I install an NVIDIA 8800GT card into an 8200 or 8300 motherboard with HDMI, will I be able to combine the video output of the 8800GT into the HDMI output of the motherboard along with LPCM 8 channel audio?

There is no definitive answer until somebody experiments, but 8800 GT for video and 8200/8300 for HDMI audio should be possible theoretically.
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post #177 of 2308 Old 03-03-2008, 03:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx View Post

There is no definitive answer until somebody experiments, but 8800 GT for video and 8200/8300 for HDMI audio should be possible theoretically.

According to the nVidia web site, only the 8500GT and 8400GS can be SLI'd with the 8200 (and presumably 8300) mGPU:
http://www.nvidia.com/object/hybrid_sli.html

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post #178 of 2308 Old 03-03-2008, 03:51 PM
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The question is a good one - I was thinking about this new "hybrid SLI" Nvidia setup, and wondered how the combined output is, well, output... Once you plug in a discrete video card in a hybrid SLI setup, does the monitor connect to the video card or the built-in HDMI on the motherboard? If you have to connect it to the video card, you lose the whole benefit of the onboard audio/video connection.

Found some answers here. Looks like you have the monitor connected to the motherboard connector, which is good! This article points out that trying to augment a higher-end card with the IGP can actually decrease performance, and hybrid SLI works best when the IGP and the discrete card have similar performance. This is most likely why the Nvidia website says the 8400/8500 are for hybrid SLI, as they have similar performance to the 8200 IGP. Still, a promising technology if it works - having the discrete card to boost IGP performance when necessary may provide a pretty good solution.
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post #179 of 2308 Old 03-03-2008, 03:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Speqtre View Post

The question is a good one - I was thinking about this new "hybrid SLI" Nvidia setup, and wondered how the combined output is, well, output... Once you plug in a discrete video card in a hybrid SLI setup, does the monitor connect to the video card or the built-in HDMI on the motherboard? If you have to connect it to the video card, you lose the whole benefit of the onboard audio/video connection.

You plug into the mGPU. Read the link I posted above, it kinda explains it (in a marketing web site sort of way).

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post #180 of 2308 Old 03-03-2008, 04:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AbMagFab View Post

According to the nVidia web site, only the 8500GT and 8400GS can be SLI'd with the 8200 (and presumably 8300) mGPU:
http://www.nvidia.com/object/hybrid_sli.html

The information on the NVIDIA site is a bit old. The latest cards (starting from 9600 GT?) will all support Hybrid SLI.


The question by maxleung is not so directly related to Hybrid SLI (GeForce Boost). He just wants to use two graphics cards (8800 GT and 8200) in non-Hybrid SLI mode and use 8800 GT for video and 8200 for HDMI audio. G35 mb users tried a similar configuration but in vain because of Vista restriction in regards to dual graphics (heterogeneous graphics is not allowed).
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