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post #91 of 344 Old 02-08-2002, 12:15 PM
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One question: If you intend to burn to DVD-R then I don't think you'd have to re-mux the streams. There are plenty of dvd authoring programs that except the two elementry streams.

As for Demuxing the streams, what program are you using? Demuxing the streams should not be too long of a process.
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post #92 of 344 Old 02-08-2002, 12:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by breaux124
One question: If you intend to burn to DVD-R then I don't think you'd have to re-mux the streams. There are plenty of dvd authoring programs that except the two elementry streams.

As for Demuxing the streams, what program are you using? Demuxing the streams should not be too long of a process.
You can import the streams separately, but when the dvd authorigin program prepares the VOB, it re-muxes them (if I understand the process correctly) - clearly when my machine is making the VOBs, it takes whole craploads of time on my machine (I was assuming that it re-muxes them when it makes the VOBs).

I used Ulead to de-mux (or Womble). Cannot remember now.

Calvin
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post #93 of 344 Old 02-08-2002, 12:21 PM
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I'm not de-muxing -> muxing. Sorry I didn't say that. I'm only using Womble to edit out commercials. I'm not sure why it takes so long to patches the pieces back together. Its not transcoding the sound or anything. In my case its totally an I/O issue. I've also done this on an ME P3 800 with two ata100 60gig drives. It is not much slower than the P4 with scsi.
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post #94 of 344 Old 02-08-2002, 12:23 PM - Thread Starter
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I think the "dual" Athlon is nice, but don't think it will help much unless the application you are using specifically has dual thread capabilities. Using dual CPU's only helps when the operating system and/or the application is specifically written for it.

However, I think both of you guys have rather long times. De-multiplexing and multiplexing times are (I think) going to be more varied as per the "size" of the video in question and not the minutes. Typically I use the low quality and one hour is just a tad under 1 gb. This takes me normally less than ten minutes. I'll time it for sure later and report back. I'm pretty sure I did a whole 2 hour movie in low quality which was about 2.1 GB and it didn't take much more than 10 or 15 minutes. I was using Womble. And my system is a dedicated NLE Win2k machine running a Raid 0 multi-disc array and an Athlon 1800+ CPU.

Some tips:

Mostly this is disc intensive. Try to have your saved output on a different physical drive from the temp or source drive.

If you DO go for dual CPUs, give a look at TMPGenc. It has specific settings for use of dual CPUs. In most cases, I think it will automatically turn on dual processing if it finds you have dual CPUs. In that case it would make a pretty big difference.

By the way. I've been using Womble for a pretty long time. I have made tons of "mini-dvds". Mostly these are low quality one hour shows. Typically it takes me about 20 minutes total, starting with the raw Mpeg to a finished 43 minute burned mini-dvd ready to stick into the dvd player for viewing. Normally a full edit is under ten minutes. (this is of course if the raw mpeg doens't have any problems) If I had to spend any more time than that, I wouldn't bother.

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post #95 of 344 Old 02-08-2002, 12:39 PM
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Good point Rich, I didn't mention that all my files are in HQ mode. So each half hour segment is 1.1-1.3gig. It takes about 10 for me to 'record'.
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post #96 of 344 Old 02-08-2002, 01:43 PM
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I am working with a 100 min video that is about 2.9 Gigs.

I realize that the software needs to take advantage of the multiple processors, but I also had assumed that since aud/vi processing is so intensive, the folks that developed the software would have put support in for that (like TMPGenc as you had mentioned).

Guess I'll start spanning my stuff out and get a few faster, smaller disks to spread out my work (I have an extra SCSI card lying around as well, so I can even put them on a different bus).

Maybe that'll help change things.

When I edit the commercials out of the video, I save to a new file because I always like to have backups. That probably does me in as well (assuming that it takes much longer to create a new 2.9 gig file than to save an edit back to the original file - that's true isn't it?)

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post #97 of 344 Old 02-08-2002, 01:58 PM
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Well, I'm still having tons of problems with audio sync, but right now my biggest problem is working with padded programs, where they are programmed to start recording early. No editor I have tried will handle these files properly. They all (at best) stop at the point where the program "really" starts according to the program guide.

Hmmm, that might not be clear. I'm using a Panasonic Showstopper. I have a program that is set to start recording 2 minutes early. When I open the extracted file in an editor, I can only see those first 2 minutes. It looks like the Replay is putting an end of stream or end of program mark in there at what it considers to be the "real" beginning of the show. Of course, to add insult to injury, most players cruise right past the problem without a hiccup.

Is there any way around this? Is there any tool that will show me exactly what is going on in these MPEGs? I have tried de/re-muxing, and also doing the de/re-mux in different programs (including TMPGenc, Womble and uLead Video Studio). Nothing I have tried even begins to solve the problem.

I asked this earlier in the thread and never got a reply. ANY help would be appreciated. About 80% of the shows that I want to save have this problem. Thanks!
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post #98 of 344 Old 02-08-2002, 06:40 PM - Thread Starter
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For MrWilson and Calvin940.

A couple things I've done that seem to greatly increase speed during various editing sessions have been as follows:

Try to find out where or if the editor or utility you're using is keeping it's "temp" file. Try to keep that away from your system drive if possible. Many times the system drive is the default for it's Windows swap file. This file can grow and shrink as needed depending on how much RAM is needed by the program in question. One of the things I've done to optimize my system was to buy a main board that ran a 266 bus and also allowed me to install 1.5 GB of high density PC 133 Memory. With 1.5 GB of RAM, I was able to turn off (set my Windows Swap file to zero). I didn't really need to slow things down by having needed ram swapped to the system hard drive. This helped a lot (for some programs) by keeping all that extra memory use in memory and not being swapped to disk. I would not however recommend this. The gain is minimal with the two programs in question (Womble / TMPGenc)

I have all my drives at U-100 and 7200 rpm. The main system drive is all by itself as a master on the first IDE channel. Then I have a removable bay all by itself on the 2nd IDE controller. There I usually either have the source ReplayTV drive (when extracting the old Replay 2/3000 series mpeg. Or when doing editing, I have a clean 60 GB U-100 7200 drive which is set up as all applications' temp drive/folder. This drive is always started empty, and defragged. (note .. also empty your Windows recycle/trash bin) If you simply erase the temp drive you may still have files causing any writing to have to jump around them. Delete, and then defrag. Yes, even though the drive is really empty, defrag can still help. And if the drive is clean it will only take a few seconds. Remember, the program is "moving" and creating Gigabytes of files around all on the disc. A separate, empty and defragged disc just for the output file will help greatly.

Last is the 4 drive Raid array. That is where the original file resides that I'm editing.

Try to get at least the program's temp drive to be one that is by itself.
How important is it to keep these drives and files separated? Look at these tests I've done.

Program TMPGENC (vs 2.5) Simple Demux. File 1 GB ReplayTV.

With box for (do not use cache file) checked .. (enabled)

Using only the high speed RAID (source and final output the same) Total time = 3 minutes 24 seconds.

Using RAID for source and output to separate drive on main Board IDE 2nd channel. = 2.0 minutes.

Using RAID for source and output to separate drive on main board IDE 2nd channel BUT with Tmpgenc's (do not use cache file UN-checked) = 1 minute 40 seconds.

For comparsion I did the last test using Womble to de-multiplex and it finished in 1 minute 20 seconds.

If you are interested, doing a "save" of an edited 1 GB file with Womble using the RAID for both source and final destination was 1 minute 20 seconds also. When using two separate drives the Womble took 43 seconds to "save" a 1 gb file.

I can't stress enough the importance of splitting up the source and final destination drives to speed things up. Oh and my separate destination drive in this case happen to be a U-100 but only 5400 RPM.

Using two drives, both on the same IDE channel won't show that much of a difference. They have to be on different IDE channels to really get things moving. FWIW, my RAID array benchmarks at just under 60 Mb/s sustained sequential write. Hope that gives you some insight as to how important the "hard drives" are as to various multiplexing and editing programs.
Post script .. by using the slower 5400 rpm drive as the source and having the de-muxing files saved to the RAID, I got the demux time with Womble for the same 1 GB file down to 42 seconds.

Rich
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post #99 of 344 Old 02-08-2002, 06:44 PM - Thread Starter
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For scochran666,

I saw your original post .. frankly I didn't have any answers. It sounds strange. I'm going to be doing an edit of a program that I padded for 5 minutes early start and 10 minutes past the end.

I will let you know if I can duplicate your problem. Some things for you to check that "might" help?

Make sure when off-loading the ReplayTV mpeg that the Replay is not currently in use .. (doing a record or playback)

If at all possible, use an NTFS file system.

Rich
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post #100 of 344 Old 02-08-2002, 07:12 PM
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I've got 3 UW Scsi drives. My system drive, My RTV 'storage' drive, and the drive I 'record' my womble files to. The last two are 10k RPM UW2 drives. It still takes 15 minutes or so. I'm not de-muxing, that seems fairly quick. I'm cutting commercials and 'recording' the new file. Not sure what that entails. I am using an Adaptec 2940UW pro. I hate it, its slower than my old Buslogic 958 card, too bad they make those anymore.
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post #101 of 344 Old 02-08-2002, 09:44 PM - Thread Starter
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For scochran666,

Well I checked the "padded" ReplayTV mpeg I made. Had no problems.

I recorded a 1/2 hour program at Medium quality. Padded the beginning at 5 minutes and the ending at 10 minutes.

Off loaded the mpeg. Total size was 45 minutes as it should have been. Ran it through Womble, cut paste etc and found no problems.

What program are you using to extract the ReplayTV files? I'm using ReplayPC.exe. Also, everything is being done in an NTFS file system.

Maybe you might try re-installing the Womble ??

Rich
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post #102 of 344 Old 02-09-2002, 04:57 AM
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for the record, I'm using Replayer.jar
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post #103 of 344 Old 02-09-2002, 07:49 AM
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All my ReplayTV mpgs have one of both the following problems:

Invalid Audio Streams

Invalid length

For the invalid length (1 hour show appearing to my mpeg play as 2 miutes, etc.) I have been able to use the Elcard decoder with TMPGEnc Merge/Cut tool to create a file that now appears to have the correct length.

For the Invalid audio stream I usually have to create a Vegas Video 3 project with the MPG file in it and re-render just the sound track as a DVD audio stream file.

The MPGs with invalid audio play just fine in most of my player software I am wondering if there is an "magic" all in one MPG file fixer app that simply repairs the file without transcoding it in any way in one easy step.
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post #104 of 344 Old 02-09-2002, 08:35 AM
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Rich, thanks for testing it out, but I'm using a Showstopper, not a 4000. I'm working on an XP system, and the drives are NTFS. Can anyone else with a Showstopper confirm that this problem occurs for them as well?
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post #105 of 344 Old 02-09-2002, 03:30 PM
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I’m having a problem burning even my raw, unedited mpeg files (which have actually been converted to 48K with Womble) onto DVD. I’m extracting High quality MPEGs directly from my RePlay 3K, converting the audio in Womble, and testing the burn process. I am using DVDit 2.5.2 on a Windows XP system and it always seem to get a GOP error (Too many pictures in GOP) near the beginning of the file. I’ve tried more than one file and I always seem to have the same problem. What quality setting are most of you using? What DVD creation programs are you using? I know it’s not DVDit that’s causing the problem since I’ve taking one of the MPEGs and re-encoded it with TMPGE and it’s worked fine. I hate to have to re-encode all my files, plus the quality seems to decrease and the audio’s not as crisp. Any ideas or suggestions? Thanks!

-jmmsumru
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post #106 of 344 Old 02-09-2002, 06:11 PM - Thread Starter
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For scochran666,

I have three ReplayTVs. A 2000, a 3000 and a 4080. I was one of the first to putz with extracting Replay Mpeg from my original 10 GB unit (the old one with the fire wire ports that went no-where) heh heh.

The 2/3000 Replay unit's I'm pretty sure are similar to the ShowStopper.

I would use the Extract_RTV program. I've never tried that Java applet, but the Extract_RTV from a DOS window works perfectly with both my older ReplayTVs.

And for what it's worth .. I had various problems when using Windows XP and switching to Win2K worked much better.

Of course YMMV .. But I'd try Extract_RTV and Win 2K if at all possible.

Rich
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post #107 of 344 Old 02-10-2002, 09:06 AM
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Rich, is there any way you could perform the "padded program" test on one of your older (non-4000) replay units? I'm thinking that the MPEG files are a bit different between the two generations. Maybe they eliminated this behavior with the 4000s.

Since I'm using a Showstopper, Extract_rtv is the only way I know of to get the programs off, so that's what I use. Yes, it is functionally identical to the 2000/3000 Replays.

I have a Win2K machine that I will use to experiment with this, but right now it has no drivespace available, so it will take a while to get everything organized.

Thanks!
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post #108 of 344 Old 02-10-2002, 02:28 PM
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I'm using Womble MPEGVCR v3.11, from what I can tell it DOES reencode the data. Working with a 1 hour high quality file I trim the commercials then it takes several hours to record to the output file on a 1.5 GHZ machine. Is this typical?

Quote:
Originally posted by Jeff D
Beginning and end garbage. You'll need an editor which won't reencode the data. Womble MPEG2VCR works for that. There are also tools for demuxing the audio video streams to seperate files.

-- Marc
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post #109 of 344 Old 02-10-2002, 03:35 PM
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I'm new to video editing.

My goal is to pull high-quality MPEG files from my ReplayTV 4080 (or any other source), edit commercials from the files, and record onto DVDs. For the purpose of this question, I'm only interested in editing.

I'm running an AMD Athalon XP 1700+ chip with 512 MB RAM. Hard disk is ATA-100 7200 RPM. I have dual monitors, primary on an ATI All-in-Wonder Radeon, the other a 3dfx Voodoo 3. Oh, Windows XP Pro with all patches, as well.

I've been using Womble Nov-01 v 3.11. I open a file to be edited, a one-hour show padded one minute on each end, for 62 minutes. This is usually a little more than 2 gigabytes in size.

I chose Womble because I like the simple editing controls. Trimming and cleaning the junk out of the episode generally take 3-5 minutes and results in a 44 min file.

At this point, I click the record button in the edit/playback window, give an output file name (generally on the same drive and directory), and go away for FOUR to SIX HOURS while it completes.

From looking at the other messages, I'm seeing times of just a few MINUTES for a session.

The files I get are coming out fine, no glitches. It has never seemed rational to me that the session should take that long when content is only being removed. I know that MPEG is a stream-based format, but, still..... The WHOLE THING?

I've had poor results getting support from the publisher, as well. Emails go unanswered for days, the replies are usually very sketchy at best. Poor docs, too, IMHO.

Anyway. -- Am I doing something wrong, or does this all sound about right?

-- Marc
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post #110 of 344 Old 02-10-2002, 06:14 PM
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When editing with Womble unless you change any of the properties it shouldn't have to re-encode the file. And it should only take a few minutes to record the new file.

If you change any of the video or audio properties then it has to re-encode the entire file, which takes a very long time.

It seems that you must be changing some property that requires the video to need re-encoding.

I can edit out the commercials from a 1 hour medium quality video and it only takes a few minutes (about 5min) to record the new video.
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post #111 of 344 Old 02-10-2002, 06:33 PM
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What settings are you guys using for 3.11? You change anything under Tools, Options?
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post #112 of 344 Old 02-10-2002, 06:52 PM
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$250... you can buy all sorts of fun schmack for that much cash! No flippin way am I gonna give it to the Womble people. The 3/01 version is pirated all over the place, but I havn't seen the 11/01 version. I only wanted it because I thought it may be better with these Replay mpegs, but now I think it only adds a little minor functionality and won't help anyway.

About Womble taking a long time, breaux has it right. You must select "program stream" and it should only take a few minutes to extract the good stuff from the stream.
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post #113 of 344 Old 02-11-2002, 06:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by mrwilson
You guys getting a special deal on Womble? I'd love to have the new version but its $250!!
I'm not supporting software piracy, just informing

If you go to womble's website and go to the purchase page, you can download the newest install. But you'll need a serial number to activate the program. If you look hard, you should be able to find one online somewhere.


breaux124@yahoo.com
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post #114 of 344 Old 02-12-2002, 07:50 AM
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There is definately something different about 3.11 over 3.00. It takes about 10-15 minutes to do a 1.3gig 6mbs file in 3.00 but 3.11 only got to 2% after 10 minutes. I've tried all different settings, even leaving them alone. In 3.00 I have all filters checked and in 3.11 I've tried all combos and even none. No effect. I did notice that 3.00 thinks the file is 6mbs CBR whereas 3.11 thinks its 6mbs VBR. Changing it to CBR has no effect. Something weird is going on. At least you can have both versions installed at the same time.
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post #115 of 344 Old 02-12-2002, 09:58 AM - Thread Starter
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For MrWilson,

I no longer use the "Extract_RTV" program since getting my ReplayTV 4000. Been doing all my "downloads" directly with that 4K unit. However I "was" doing all my extracts with both the 2K and 3K RPTVs for I guess almost a year without problems. Er, I mean "strange" problems. I've always had the "bad GOP', and other things about 50 percent of the time but have usually been able to "fix" it.

However, for YOU "MrWilson" .. any friend of "Dennis" is a friend of mine. So I'll dig up my old removable 2k unit (not being used at the moment) and do a padded record for ya. Might take a couple days before I can get it all put back together.

Of course I'm assuming "Mr Wilson" is Dennis the Menace's neighbor, no? heh heh ...

For Nanowell,

I've been a long time user of MPEGVCR and MPEG2VCR. Yes, as per one of the other posts noted, you can do a lot with 250 bucks. BUT, if you intend to do any serious MPEG editing then the cost is well worth it.

It WILL re-encode the saved output IF you have changed any of the Mpeg parameters. NOTE: it ALSO re-encodes any FX effects you've added, like a fade or merge or wipe between cuts. However this encode for those effects only entails a few frames in and around the add effect. You'll notice when it is "saving" how it will pause for a few seconds at each of these changes. My added effects at an average of say 5 points only increases the "save" time about one or two minutes.

If you've been around as long as I have and had checked out "all" the true frame accurate mpeg editors, you'll see that the Womble program is by far and away the best bang for your buck. Others that do what the Womble can do cost considerable more.

250 bucks is a relative figure and you have to justify it against how much you are going to use it.

Here's a quick 1-2-3 on the best way to use it without re-encoding.

Open the mpeg. It will be added to the work area. Click on the "in and out" points that you want to "copy" to the clipboard, one by one. Use the left/up arrow for the in point and the right/up arrow for the out point. After those points are set, click on the "COPY" icon. This will put that section into the "clip list".

Now move your pointers to the next area to "copy". Keep doing this and you'll usually find a one hour TV show will have five or six clips saved. And generally the total play time of all those clips should be about 43 minutes.

Now after having put all your "wanted" clips onto the clipboard, close the main mpeg window in the work area. (you won't need it any longer)

Now drag the first clip to the work area. It will come up as did the original Mpeg movie .. but only with the new clip's length.

Mark the end of the clip (important to do this)

Now drag the next clip onto that existing clip in the work area. A 2nd mpeg window will open showing the combined two clips. At this point you can add a transistion effect or not. Again, make sure the beginning and end point of the combined clips are marked. (Important to have the end mark as each time you add a new clip from the clip list it will automatically be placed where ever you had made the mark out or end mark)

Just keep dragging and dropping the next "saved clip" from the clip list to the working area mpeg. When you are done, mark the in and out and you should see an mpeg about 43 minutes long (if doing a normal USA TV one hour show)

Now hit the RECORD button. DO NOT open the video or audio properties. Well you "can" open them .. to check them out, but be very careful not to change anything. After hitting the RECORD button, it should take anything from a few minutes to maybe 15 (if you are running something like a 233 Mhz CPU)

NOTE: .. if you HAVE the latest November version of Womble, and you are working with ReplayTV series 2 or 3000 mpeg extracts, THEN you CAN open up the "audio" only parameters before the final save, and change the 32 kHz audio to 48 kHz. This only works with the latest version of Womble. Otherwise with the older versions it will attempt a full re-encode. The lastest version WILL allow you to make that change (and only an audio change) without having to re-encode the video as well. This WILL increase the saving time, but only by a few minutes.

Lastly, a tip for you guys using the older version. (as long as it's registered) Downloading the latest version from the Womble "purchase site" should UPDATE your existing version. I'm pretty sure you don't need to re-register or get a new SN. (those of you using "borrowed" SNs etc. should still be able to upgrade) (wink) I do NOT condone piracy but I figure maybe if you get it all working correctly that somewhere down the line you might invest in it? heh heh. I did.

The latest version is sorta "hidden". It's not notated or documented on the Womble site. It's simply there for downloading on the "purchase page". If you are intending to buy it, then fill out the form and download. If you alread have an older (working) version, do not fill out anything on the page and just download it. When you click on the downloaded file to install it, it should find your older version and update it.

Hope this all helps ..

Rich
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post #116 of 344 Old 02-12-2002, 11:32 AM
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Thanks Rich A. I should clarify that I am using an RTV4k but using Replayer.jar to download mpegs. 3.00 is fast, 3.11 is doing something I can't figure out, it takes forever.

I'm editing a different way. I'm not copying/pasting, I'm marking the start and end of the commercials and cutting them out. Always worked for me and is quicker too.
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post #117 of 344 Old 02-12-2002, 01:34 PM
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Got it to not re-encode one 2gig ep but the lip synch is WAY off. Whats up with that?
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post #118 of 344 Old 02-12-2002, 04:37 PM
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Rich,

Do you see any downside to the way Mr Wilson edits? (marking and cutting commercials). I did it the same way and I have had success and failures, probably just bad GOPs?


Also do you have any idea on why a movie (120min) where I just trimmed the ends off, would play fine in womble, play fine in win media player, but show as 28 minutes in ulead DVD movie factory?

I tried both Replayer and SwapDV downloads and got the exact results. If I look in womble at that point, there is no visible defect. I haven't had any luck with long shows (>1 hour).

"Beneath the surface of the mud...... there's more mud still.......Surprise" -- CSN
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post #119 of 344 Old 02-12-2002, 05:54 PM
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Ed, I'm in the same boat, NO luck with any 2 hour shows! I even tried editing with Ulead and I still get that damn lip sync problem.
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post #120 of 344 Old 02-13-2002, 01:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by mrwilson
Thanks Rich A. I should clarify that I am using an RTV4k but using Replayer.jar to download mpegs. 3.00 is fast, 3.11 is doing something I can't figure out, it takes forever.

I'm editing a different way. I'm not copying/pasting, I'm marking the start and end of the commercials and cutting them out. Always worked for me and is quicker too.
Oh oh .. (he says excitedly) heh heh I THINK I've found your problem. Before you try your next Womble record do this:

In Womble title bar, open "TOOLS" ... Then select "OPTIONS" Then the "Video Encoder" tab. Make sure you have "No full sequence scanning before encoding" CHECKED (enabled) In other words DON'T do a full scan. I think it defaults to doing a full sequence scan which would make the recording process somewhat longer.

See if that doesn't speed things up. I'm sorry I didn't remember that, as I originally always had mine checked and never gave it another thought for the year or so I've been using it. As to what it affects, I'm not sure. (other than it speeding things up considerably) You know I'll have to try it WITH the full sequence scanning. It could be that although it may take longer, it may be automatically fixing those intermittant broken GOPs and stuff that I get with about 50 percent of the Replay Mpegs. I'll do a test on my system to see how much more time it takes. That "could" be why some guys trash Womble as re-encoding every time they just save. You have to have that check box enabled. Of course the down side might be that by disabling that feature (while making it faster) you might loose the ability to get "non-busted" GOPs etc. with your final save. Or in other words, if you have a perfect mpeg with no problems it'll save it fast and no NEED to do any repair. But if you have any problems then if you DON'T do the sequence scan you'll get a fast record, but no fixes will be made. Geeshhhh, I wish I thought of that long ago near the beginning of this thread. Let us know if it helps ..

Rich
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