Will ReplayTV still do a manual record if the guide ceases to exist? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 40 Old 07-30-2010, 07:47 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm considering buying a ReplayTV DVR, one that would have a lifetime subscription, probably a 4000 or 5000 series model. From what I have read, I guess it's sort of iffy as to how much longer DirecTV will continue to furnish the guide for ReplayTV. Can anyone tell me, if at some point I can no longer download the guide from the internet, would I still be able to manual record any particular channel that is offered on my Comcast cable by programming in the channel number? Or will the ReplayTV unit cease to function at all? Thanks in advance for your help.
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post #2 of 40 Old 07-30-2010, 08:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wildintrovert View Post

I'm considering buying a ReplayTV DVR, one that would have a lifetime subscription, probably a 4000 or 5000 series model. From what I have read, I guess it's sort of iffy as to how much longer DirecTV will continue to furnish the guide for ReplayTV. Can anyone tell me, if at some point I can no longer download the guide from the internet, would I still be able to manual record any particular channel that is offered on my Comcast cable by programming in the channel number? Or will the ReplayTV unit cease to function at all? Thanks in advance for your help.

I am sure you can still do manual recording in the absence of guide data. I have a unit with a dead ethernet interface and can use it for recording shows in this way.

Also, while we can speculate all we want, I am not aware of any actual plans by DirecTV to kill the service. One might even speculate that they are contractually obligated to keep it running based on the notion of lifetime service which they presumably acquired, along with the assets of the company. Also, keeping it running for the monthly units is probably the closest thing one might imagine to free money for them.
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post #3 of 40 Old 07-31-2010, 09:11 AM
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To be clear, DirecTV does not provide the guide data, it is still provided by DNNA. And, it is the process of net connecting which keeps the units active. The units must contact DNNA regularly in order for them to be able to continue to record shows, manual or regular. This process of net connecting is what provides the guide data, keeps the unit active, and also provides updates. So, it isn't just the guide data, it is the process as a whole which keeps the unit active. The guide udpate itself can be acquired from many other sources. There are users outside of the US getting their guide data from another source, but the unit still must contact DNNA regularly in order to stay active. So, getting guide data isn't the actual concern, it is having DNNA maintain the ReplayTV service to keep the units active which would be required. And, as long as DNNA maintains the ReplayTV service, then the guide service would be part of that. Here's what DNNA anounce back at the end of 2007:

Quote:


D&M Holdings will remain the operator of the existing service contracts for current subscribers for the foreseeable future while DIRECTV will assume most of the other assets of the brand company.

So, how long is the "foreseeable future"?

Henry
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post #4 of 40 Old 08-02-2010, 05:35 AM
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I would just about bet my entire salary that if the guide data suddenly went away that there would be a publicly available WiRNS plugin within 24 hours. There isn't a doubt in my mind that it is possible and that a limited few people are doing it.

Of course, I don't see the guide data going away anytime soon. There are still monthly units out there and the overhead on keeping the 486DX (the server--maybe they'll upgrade to a pentium!) running.
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post #5 of 40 Old 08-02-2010, 08:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hdonzis View Post


...This process of net connecting is what provides the guide data, keeps the unit active, and also provides updates. ...

I meant that without a net connection, lifetime units can run indefinitely but, of course, they will have no guide data. You can use them to play previously-recorded shows and to record shows by entering the times manually, like a souped-up VCR. I believe the issue of "keeping the unit active" only pertains to monthly units. I am pretty sure a lifetime unit never needs to connect to remain alive and I have verified that over a period of a year (since I have this semi-broken unit).

There is a minor issue of clock drift, but that's a whole other story.

Re. guide data from other sources: not only can WIRNS provide guide data but there is a Linux/UNIX-based set of perl scripts that can be used to replace ReplayTV central (or WiRNS). This alternate-guide technology, however, is not able to take over the role of authorizing units, updating monthlies, or setting the time. These three functions, in particular, are based on strong encryption methods (based fundamentally on the El Gamal algorithm). This encryption, used to sign certain data such as authorization, is very well secured and I would not expect it to be broken easily. On the other hand, once a unit has been authorized it's "not hard" to serve it your own guide data.
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post #6 of 40 Old 08-02-2010, 09:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g501 View Post

I meant that without a net connection, lifetime units can run indefinitely but, of course, they will have no guide data. You can use them to play previously-recorded shows and to record shows by entering the times manually, like a souped-up VCR. I believe the issue of "keeping the unit active" only pertains to monthly units. I am pretty sure a lifetime unit never needs to connect to remain alive and I have verified that over a period of a year (since I have this semi-broken unit).

That's interesting because I didn't believe that to be true. I have the trace of a lifetime unit authorizing, and it appears to have some date information in it, but it isn't clear to me how long it is good for. Every time the lifetime RTV authorizes, the dates get bumped. I haven't seen the trace of a monthly unit authorizing, so I don't know how it differs. It's possible that the monthly authorization has some cut off information that the lifetime authorization doesn't have.

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Originally Posted by g501 View Post

There is a minor issue of clock drift, but that's a whole other story.

Just to be sure, you probably already know that the 3-8-2-Zones screen contains a set the clock menu item. Although, I can't recall right now if that menu choice is always present or only on a reset unit...

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Originally Posted by g501 View Post

Re. guide data from other sources: not only can WIRNS provide guide data but there is a Linux/UNIX-based set of perl scripts that can be used to replace ReplayTV central (or WiRNS). This alternate-guide technology, however, is not able to take over the role of authorizing units, updating monthlies, or setting the time. These three functions, in particular, are based on strong encryption methods (based fundamentally on the El Gamal algorithm). This encryption, used to sign certain data such as authorization, is very well secured and I would not expect it to be broken easily. On the other hand, once a unit has been authorized it's "not hard" to serve it your own guide data.

Yes, I was going to reply to aeblank that the guide data feed capability already exists in many ways (which I mentioned in my first post). But, that he needed to read all the archived posts about how many years it would take to break the authorization security if all the members at that time were working on it simulatneously. Now that the population has dwindled, and along with the interest of it continuining to work dwindling as well, I doubt that anyone would bother, much less have something in 24 hours. Since I'm pretty much the only one who even bothers to mess with the different ReplayTV software at all any longer, it seems pretty unlikely that there would suddenly be a huge development effort to try to crack the authorization security when there are so many other DVR methods available. Especially since all of the pre-4K users would have to get some kind of phone line simulators or software and phone line routers just to be able to keep their units going. It hardly seems worth it...

But, if your information about a lifetime subscribed unit working forever without authorizing is correct, then it seems like at least the population of lifetime subscribers can keep their units working, even with guide data, for as long as they can obtain guide data from some other source. WiRNS will already provide guide data and skip the authorization for units that don't have Internet access. However, it was my understanding that even for these people, they still have to get their units connected to the Internet at some regular interval (like, maybe once a month) to keep the units subscribed. I suppose it would be interesting to use WiRNS to feed a lifetime subscribed unit guide data without authorization for more than a year and see what happens...

Henry
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post #7 of 40 Old 08-02-2010, 10:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hdonzis View Post

That's interesting because I didn't believe that to be true. I have the trace of a lifetime unit authorizing, and it appears to have some date information in it, but it isn't clear to me how long it is good for. Every time the lifetime RTV authorizes, the dates get bumped.
...
Henry

The ReplayTV protocol is documented here (Henry, I am sure you know this already)
http://www.wirns.com/twiki/RnsProtocol
and the authorization step is:
http://www.wirns.com/twiki/RnsAuth
This is an archive from the old Molehill Wiki. For 5000-series units I think the perl script name is a bit different (maybe getcg2.pl). It does not seem to include date information, although it could be computer from the HTTP headers. More importantly though, if you look in the registry using the ptv shell, there is no such indication.

I am not a WiRNS person, but I suspect it's easy to block and verify. I am pretty certain I'm correct (again, since I have first-hand data). Anyhow, since keeping the service up is a legal obligation and cheap to do, I am hoping this speculation about doomsday is not likely to matter.
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post #8 of 40 Old 08-02-2010, 10:35 AM
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Yeah, I've got all that. But, what I was referring to is some of the comments in that TWIKI and some of the posts in the AVSForum archives, as well as some recent disucssions with different people. For example, there is a guy in a mobile home who only has Internet access every once in awhile. So, he uses the Internet access to load up guide data for a couple of weeks and to authorize his units. Then, he says that the units run fine just downloading guide data and skipping the authorization for about a month. Now, I don't know if he has monthly units or not, so maybe that's what makes the difference. I haven't read about any one with a lifetime subscribed unit having the unit operate without being authorized for any lenghty period of time without having it complain, so you are the first. It certainly would be interesting if it's true! But, I have the traces of my lifetime units authorizing, and there's no doubt that the date information bumps each time it authorizes. However, I don't see anything indicating how long it should authorize for, so maybe that's the difference in a monthly subscription versus a lifetime subscription. Comments about the monthly authorization do appear in that TWIKI, but no actual trace information for me to look at...

Henry
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post #9 of 40 Old 08-02-2010, 06:26 PM
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As we all know, the monthly units need to re-authorize... about monthly.

The lifetime units get a time update (via the vtime.pl call) every time they synchronize. They also store the time of the last access (to guide data) and other such stuff.
The getca4.pl script used in my 5000-series unit includes shell commands that (re)set the
activation status and the encryption keys i.e. lines of the form:

regedit setstr SysConfig/Auth/Settings/OK SystemInfoStr "Activated (one-time fee paid)"
regedit setval SysConfig/Auth Activated 1

But if these are not retransmitted/updated nothing bad will happen.
As i said, I have first-hand experience (with 2 machines) that lifetime units stay alive without a connection, but there is no way I can provide definite evidence.
(IDLE READER: NOTE THAT AS WAS DISCUSSED WAY BACK WHEN, THERE IS NO ACTIVATION HACK POSSIBLE USING THIS SINCE IT IS PROTECTED BY A SIGNATURE HASH).

382-Zones screen that you mentioned allows you to inspect the clock, but not set it. I do not believe there is any way to set the clock without passing through encryption-controlled pathways. This is presumably because you could keep a monthly unit alive (or in demo mode) by turning back the clock. The ability to set the clock vanished with the 5000-series boxes (when things were locked up using encryption).

There is a shell command (rtcset via the ptv shell) that lets you set the real-time clock. This command cannot be used without passing a challenge-response test that is based on the same El Gamal signature, so it is mostly useless to RTV hackers.

Note, incidentally, that if you leave a lifetime unit UNPLUGGED for a long time, then it *will* need to re-connect to be used, lifetime or not. This is because the real-time clock will fail and set a bit saying the time is not "valid". The ReplayTV software will not allow the unit to be used without a valid RTC clock value.
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post #10 of 40 Old 08-02-2010, 07:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g501 View Post

As we all know, the monthly units need to re-authorize... about monthly.

The lifetime units get a time update (via the vtime.pl call) every time they synchronize. They also store the time of the last access (to guide data) and other such stuff.
The getca4.pl script used in my 5000-series unit includes shell commands that (re)set the
activation status and the encryption keys i.e. lines of the form:

regedit setstr SysConfig/Auth/Settings/OK SystemInfoStr "Activated (one-time fee paid)"
regedit setval SysConfig/Auth Activated 1

But if these are not retransmitted/updated nothing bad will happen.
As i said, I have first-hand experience (with 2 machines) that lifetime units stay alive without a connection, but there is no way I can provide definite evidence.
(IDLE READER: NOTE THAT AS WAS DISCUSSED WAY BACK WHEN, THERE IS NO ACTIVATION HACK POSSIBLE USING THIS SINCE IT IS PROTECTED BY A SIGNATURE HASH).

Yeah, I've got all that with my lifetime units. However, since I don't have a monthly unit to examine, I can't see what is different about it that makes it deactivate if it doesn't authenticate regularly...

If you look at the complete exchange of data, you will see that it also contains the current time, which also is stored in the registry. So, it wasn't clear to me that even a lifetime activated unit didn't use the time of the last authentication to only allow the unit to stay activated for a certain amount of time. Again, I would have to see what a monthly unit looks like to see if there is something else that gets used to determine when the activation has expired...

Quote:
Originally Posted by g501 View Post

382-Zones screen that you mentioned allows you to inspect the clock, but not set it. I do not believe there is any way to set the clock without passing through encryption-controlled pathways. This is presumably because you could keep a monthly unit alive (or in demo mode) by turning back the clock. The ability to set the clock vanished with the 5000-series boxes (when things were locked up using encryption).

There is a shell command (rtcset via the ptv shell) that lets you set the real-time clock. This command cannot be used without passing a challenge-response test that is based on the same El Gamal signature, so it is mostly useless to RTV hackers.

I have a brand new out of box unit where I 3-8-2-Zone skipped out of the quick setup, and it goes into a screen that has a menu item to set the clock. That's why I said last time that I wasn't sure if it was unique to a reset unit...

Quote:
Originally Posted by g501 View Post

Note, incidentally, that if you leave a lifetime unit UNPLUGGED for a long time, then it *will* need to re-connect to be used, lifetime or not. This is because the real-time clock will fail and set a bit saying the time is not "valid". The ReplayTV software will not allow the unit to be used without a valid RTC clock value.

Well, this might explain a little bit of other reports. I would guess that would mean that if I connected a long time unplugged unit to WiRNS so that it could simply set the time and nothing else, that it would reactivate it. It would be an interesting experiment!

Anyway, as I said, you are the first one I have seen post that they were able to use a lifetime subscribed unit for such a long time without having it net connect. So, that's certainly very interesting. I'm sure that you can read several posts in this very forum that if a unit isn't allowed to net connect on some regular basis, that it will become a boat anchor. In fact, I think the question of using the RTV as a manual record video recorder has come up several times in the past, and I certainly recall people saying that if they didn't at least allow it to connect every once in awhile, that it quit working. Now, if it quit working because of authentication or something about guide data, I couldn't say. But, I certainly remember postings and exchanges to that effect...

Henry
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post #11 of 40 Old 02-26-2011, 12:05 PM
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I wondered about that when I first got a Replay, last night plugged in a 5040 with lifetime that had been unplugged more than a year. Apparently it was Sunday 730 PM when I unplugged it a year ago, is where time started would indeed work. With no way to set clock if you wanted it accurate could unplug again and plug back in same day (mon-sun) and time.
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post #12 of 40 Old 02-27-2011, 06:17 AM
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someone could offer to buy the service from DNNA. Why would they risk the liability of violating the lifetime agreement? If the price was right, I'd be interested. Of course, I would need some help setting things up (Henry?).

-Chris

PS: I believe earthlink supplies the dial-up connections.

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post #13 of 40 Old 02-27-2011, 08:06 AM
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There is no risk of violating the lifetime agreement. There is no such thing as a "lifetime agreement" that means YOUR lifetime. It merely means the lifetime of the service.
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post #14 of 40 Old 02-27-2011, 12:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gatomon View Post

someone could offer to buy the service from DNNA. Why would they risk the liability of violating the lifetime agreement? If the price was right, I'd be interested. Of course, I would need some help setting things up (Henry?).

-Chris

PS: I believe earthlink supplies the dial-up connections.

It would take a little bit more than this because there's also an agreement with Tribute Media Services for providing the guide data. I assume when DNNA purchased everything from SonicBlue, that they acquired this agreement as well. DNNA's agreement must be being honored from the time it was spelled out since they are still serving data in the original format. They also aren't serving the local channels that aren't broacast in analog. So, whatever system TMS is using to provide DNNA with guide data, it's probably some old original system which is still just chugging along (just like DNNA is likely just using SonicBlue's original stuff). Or else, it's DNNA massaging the TMS data to generate the lineups, but since DNNA hasn't done any work on the ReplayTV system at all, that seems unlikely...

Henry
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post #15 of 40 Old 03-01-2011, 06:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adam1991 View Post

There is no risk of violating the lifetime agreement. There is no such thing as a "lifetime agreement" that means YOUR lifetime. It merely means the lifetime of the service.

That is an argument, however, the courts would have to decide if there is a liability. I know I would feel violated if they bricked all my replaytv's.

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Originally Posted by hdonzis View Post

It would take a little bit more than this because there's also an agreement with Tribute Media Services for providing the guide data. I assume when DNNA purchased everything from SonicBlue, that they acquired this agreement as well. DNNA's agreement must be being honored from the time it was spelled out since they are still serving data in the original format. They also aren't serving the local channels that aren't broacast in analog. So, whatever system TMS is using to provide DNNA with guide data, it's probably some old original system which is still just chugging along (just like DNNA is likely just using SonicBlue's original stuff). Or else, it's DNNA massaging the TMS data to generate the lineups, but since DNNA hasn't done any work on the ReplayTV system at all, that seems unlikely...

Henry

Maybe under new ownership some improvements could be made in the channel line-up. Maybe updating the IR remote codes too. Other things?

-Chris

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post #16 of 40 Old 03-03-2011, 08:22 PM
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FYI, Tivo recently stopped serving its legacy boxes in the UK after ten years in use. See here:
http://www.digitalspy.com/broadcasti...ries1-axe.html

Here's how it works:
Quote:


All TiVo boxes not on monthly or "lifetime" subscriptions could no longer be re-activated from December last year, and it has now emerged that all Series1 subscription services will end from June.

Danovitz said that TiVo is currently contacting the "small, yet loyal" group of customers still using the Series1, extending the offer of a discounted upgrade.

"We have reached out to those customers via a direct message to their TiVo box to let them know that TiVo will be discontinuing the service. We will continue this communication over the next few months so there are no surprises once we reach that date," he said.

"Our goal is to provide customers enough time to upgrade. All Series1 UK customers will receive free TiVo service over the next three months. If you are a Series1 UK TiVo customer and have questions, email bskyb-support@tivo.com."

TiVo may be doing this to encourage sales of its new DVRs that work with Virgin's service instead of Sky. It gives us an idea of what may happen with ReplayTV.

Of course, I don't see why DNNA would want to cut off the ReplayTV guide. It is like AOL's legacy dialup service. The company collects all those monthly fees for the low cost of maintaining the service.
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post #17 of 40 Old 03-04-2011, 06:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakuman View Post

FYI, Tivo recently stopped serving its legacy boxes in the UK after ten years in use.
...
TiVo may be doing this to encourage sales of its new DVRs that work with Virgin's service instead of Sky. It gives us an idea of what may happen with ReplayTV.
....

Note that
Quote:


The UK had a specific clause about 30 days notice and lifetime is over. I see no such clause in the US version of Lifetime service.
-- ZeoTiVo at tivocommunity.com

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post #18 of 40 Old 03-05-2011, 06:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakuman View Post


Of course, I don't see why DNNA would want to cut off the ReplayTV guide. It is like AOL's legacy dialup service. The company collects all those monthly fees for the low cost of maintaining the service.

Maybe, but it does feel like we're on borrowed time here. I only use my Replay for recording sporting events and not much more. Everything else I can just get off the Internet.
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post #19 of 40 Old 03-16-2011, 09:43 AM
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They would probably kill telephone hookups first, my RTV-2020 is clammed up! ~~~
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post #20 of 40 Old 03-16-2011, 09:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CopRock View Post

They would probably kill telephone hookups first, my RTV-2020 is clammed up! ~~~

You could always use a dial up router to get around that problem. Pretty hard for them to kill the Internet! LOL!

Henry
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post #21 of 40 Old 03-26-2011, 08:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hdonzis View Post


You could always use a dial up router to get around that problem. Pretty hard for them to kill the Internet! LOL!

Henry

Still running a lifetime Showstopper. What's a dial up router, and how does it work? Who makes them? Thanks
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post #22 of 40 Old 03-26-2011, 06:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gring40 View Post

Still running a lifetime Showstopper. What's a dial up router, and how does it work? Who makes them? Thanks

Check out this post. You don't have to use WiRNS with it, you can just use the dial-up router to allow the SS to net connect directly to DNNA. However, if you want to use WiRNS as well, it will give you back the MyReplayTV.com functionality!

Henry
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post #23 of 40 Old 03-26-2011, 08:32 PM
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Interestingly enough, I've got a 4k series, just a montly subscription one (they removed the ability to upgrade to a lifetime one by the time I decided to do that).

my credit card hasn't been charged since January (card renewed, old one expired then) but I've left the machine connected. still works just fine.

Only reason I noticed anything, is because since I'm about to buy a house, and looking at cutting my useless money drains. I was trying to figure out how to cancel my subscription, since 10 bucks a month is too much for using it almost never. I think I recorded BattleStar Galactica when it was new, and The Walking Dead last year, and some Robot Chicken before that.

Is there a grace period before the lack of payment for a montly subscription will turn the machine useless? Or does it just need the RTC check via network, and it's literally just free money going to DNNA for no reason whatsoever?
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post #24 of 40 Old 03-29-2011, 10:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SgtRauksauff View Post

Interestingly enough, I've got a 4k series, just a montly subscription one (they removed the ability to upgrade to a lifetime one by the time I decided to do that).

If they have stopped offering lifetime that may mean something.
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post #25 of 40 Old 03-29-2011, 11:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cwpl View Post

If they have stopped offering lifetime that may mean something.

Well, unless there is some emotional attachment to your unit, there really should be no reason to purchase a LT sub right now. You can buy lifetimed RTVs on ebay way under $300.

Cheers!
-Doug
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post #26 of 40 Old 03-29-2011, 12:01 PM
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the lack of LT sub was several years ago, I think maybe right after SonicBlue first went belly up. At least, I looked then, and couldn't find anything.

The machine works just fine, I upgraded the HD a long time ago, either a 160gig or a 320gig, I can't remember which right now. No particular emotional attachment, either. just handy every once in awhile to record something.

I think the prospects of selling the unit probably won't go very far, considering it's not LT. I'm going to see how long it lasts without payment before being bricked. already started copying my stuff off with DVarchive, so no big deal there.

Any word of a grace period? I'll keep tabs on it and see how long it lasts, then report back, I guess.

--sarge
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post #27 of 40 Old 03-29-2011, 01:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SgtRauksauff View Post

I think the prospects of selling the unit probably won't go very far, considering it's not LT. I'm going to see how long it lasts without payment before being bricked. already started copying my stuff off with DVarchive, so no big deal there.

Any word of a grace period? I'll keep tabs on it and see how long it lasts, then report back, I guess.

--sarge

Well, it may have value in parts.

You can always use extract_rtv to pull shows off the RTV drive. You don't even need the unit... just the drive and a PC.

Cheers!
-Doug
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post #28 of 40 Old 03-29-2011, 01:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SgtRauksauff View Post

the lack of LT sub was several years ago, I think maybe right after SonicBlue first went belly up. At least, I looked then, and couldn't find anything.

The lifetime subscription is still available. However, they raised the price $50 back around the end of 2003. They also started having the 3 year subscription instead of a lifetime for awhile during that time, so maybe that's what you're remembering. However, if you had the subscription "sticker" from the box, they would still honor it even during that time...

Henry
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post #29 of 40 Old 03-29-2011, 02:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dstoffa View Post

Well, unless there is some emotional attachment to your unit, there really should be no reason to purchase a LT sub right now. You can buy lifetimed RTVs on ebay way under $300.

Cheers!
-Doug

I've got two lifetime 5000's got them two years ago one for $80 the other for $50 very good deal back then, about what they go for now. Both were hardly used the 80 one guy bought used for 3 months put in closet till I bought it. I just thought if they had stopped offering life a date 2 or 3 years after that might be end of support. I'm among those that think it will be a long time though they have to be making money on it. I got a tivo it's not bad but does not compare to the replay.
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post #30 of 40 Old 04-07-2011, 10:52 PM
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SgtRauksauff & all,

If your credit card hasn't been charged since January and your unit is still working then you should probably consider yourself lucky! I'm not so lucky...

The credit card to which we charge our renewals expired at the end of February (and we were billed in February). We record several shows on this RTV 55xx model but don't watch it that much unless we have problems with our main RTV 55xx unit.

We had problems with our main unit last night so we went to the backup and found out that it was locked because it couldn't charge to the credit card (the main unit has Lifetime activation, the backup unit is on the discounted monthly renewal plan). We can get to the System menu of the unit (for whoever wondered above if you could change network settings while the unit is locked) but we can't watch any shows.

I went in this afternoon and tried to update our credit card info. I first tried to just update the expiration date but it said that there were problems processing our credit card. I've now tried 2 of our other credit cards and I get the same error message each time. Also, I've called all 3 credit card companies and talked to them about this and they all assure me that there are no problems with our cards and they should have no problems charging these amounts.

So now I'm wondering if there are any problems with the DNNA activation servers. I had this same kind of problem a few years ago, the last time our credit card expired. The activation servers were down for days before I could get my unit activated again.

Does anyone know if the activation servers are working okay right now, although maybe the problem is with whatever servers are supposed to be processing credit cards.

Thanks,
GWGuen
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