End of ReplayTV Electronic Programming Guide Service - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 687 Old 06-17-2011, 10:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dstoffa View Post
The Relays need to connect to something during their net connect. If the connection fails and terminates because it cannot get that 'additional information' in Step 5 or 4 or anywhere else in the cycle, then how will you be able to load guide data, even with WiRNS and Schedules Direct?

My guess is that you won't be able to. And that may be....

I am certain that tests can be done before hand, like having WiRNS proxy a connection, but block any connection to a DNNA server, and see what happens..
WiRNS specifically handles all the steps except for the activation step, so that's no a problem. In addition, WiRNS runs just fine without a connection to the DNNA server...

Henry
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post #182 of 687 Old 06-17-2011, 10:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erickotz View Post
Has anyone confirmed that the ReplayTV does (or does not) still check signing now that it's in the "Activated" state? As I understand it, Activated is a "new" state, so it's possible it disables checking.
One thing to try might be to set up WinRS, then disconnect the network from the public internet and see if the ReplayTV still updates. I plan on doing that when I find some time.
These are not states, just words. There's only one activated state, and it's still signed. The text that you see is just that and has nothing to do with the activation itself...

When you run your experiment you should find that that the RTV still updates just fine without the Internet. And, it should continue to do that as long as the unit stays activated...

Henry
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post #183 of 687 Old 06-17-2011, 10:14 AM
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Originally Posted by frankl69 View Post
After scanning this discussion, it seems that all potential solutions relate to PC users. Does anyone have a suggestion for a lifetime Mac user, other than "get a PC"?

Frank
Frank, you're really not going to get much use out of a machine that's running WIRNS. Think of it as a toaster that you have to keep plugged in and connected to your network or the ReplayTV guide won't update. Who cares that their toaster runs Windoze? As a long time Mac user, I had to use a low end PC years ago to replace my ReplayTV HDDs. Now it get's to stay plugged in all the time instead of just one weekend a year.

On a related note, the WIRNS support for time has been clarified over at the WIRNS forum on PlanetReplay. The time values are not signed, and tests have demonstrated that you can use ordinary NTP servers instead of the DNNA ones. That makes WIRNS more of a 97% solution.
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post #184 of 687 Old 06-17-2011, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by hdonzis View Post
When you run your experiment you should find that that the RTV still updates just fine without the Internet. And, it should continue to do that as long as the unit stays activated...

Henry
Hi.

Can you explain what you mean by "updates without the internet?" My replays will not update anything without connecting first via the internet.
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post #185 of 687 Old 06-17-2011, 10:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patches View Post
Mac Users,

If you want to use WIRNS, you have to have a Windows machine. WIRNS uses .NET 2.0 and there is nothing that will translate that for OS X that I have found.

A Windows machine, though, does not mean more hardware. A Windows virtual machine can run inside your Mac. Check out Parallels or VMWare Fusion. Both do about the same thing.

You will install Windows on it just like you have a separate PC. Then you can install WIRNS or whatever. And you can use an old copy of XP you have lying around, you don't have to install Windows 7.

Mike
I already have Mac on bootcamp/fusion on an Imac. I have Dvarchive loaded on both partitions too. They sort of share an IP such that if I use wired or wireless in bootcamp, they share the same cards, but if I use fusion, I can choose to get a separate IP while on the Mac side. That said, how would I set up WiRNS to not conflict with DVArchive (I guess only the windows version, but would it conflict with the Mac version if I was using fusion?)? Do I have to set up static IPs for everything that can possibly get an IP on that computer?
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post #186 of 687 Old 06-17-2011, 10:21 AM
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I have used wirns for years, now on a little netbook, i boot into windows once a day. update wirns guides, then force connects on my two replays and turn off the windows machine until the next day, sometimes i let 2 or 3 days go by until i do it again. by no means do you need a windows machine up all the time to keep the replays going. you will get 'could not connect' messages every day, but they work just fine. i am concerned about the daily connect process faulting out somehwere if the replay servers are completely gone. i will test that next week by just updating my wirns guides as usual, then unplugging my cable modem and force a connect and see what happens. the time will fault out, but if the rest works then would be a good sign that wirns can allow the replays to go on.
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post #187 of 687 Old 06-17-2011, 10:22 AM
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I called Replay support because I have two extra 5000's series I never activated. They told me that even though the units aren't activated they will be able to manual record after July 31st. They also said (which I'm skeptical) that the time servers at Replay will still be intact after July 31st it's just the program data going away.
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post #188 of 687 Old 06-17-2011, 10:30 AM
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I think the question of survival of Replaytv after July 31 will come down to the encryption keys. This group has all the pieces except for the functions that were introduced with the model 5xxx's.

A bit of history. Prior to the 5xxx's, all units were "lifetime", so no encryption was needed. To compete with Tivo, which sold the boxes cheaper by having monthly fees, ReplayTV introduced a two tier system. Once you bought the box, you could upgrade to "lifetime" or pay a monthly fee. In order to keep people from thwarting this system, encryption was introduced to provide authorization and activation. From what I've read, they used "ElGamal encryption and/or signature scheme" ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ElGamal_signature_scheme and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ElGamal_encryption). They didn't invent this nor do they own it. (As it happens, I've met the inventor and I'm a friend of his brother who is a Professor at Stanford). It's purpose was to keep un-activated boxes from being activated by a third party and to keep monthly customers from getting "lifetime" without paying the fee.

I think that life after July 31 will mostly depend on finding the "private" encryption key(s). Since Replaytv has stopped selling service, it is now not a "theft of service" to obtain these keys. Unless someone somehow figures out the key(s) (it's possible some out there has done this), the only way would be to get the owners, or someone with access, to reveal the key(s). This would not compromise any IP or such and would be clearly the right thing to do.

Will they? I don't know. They should, but they have not been very forthcoming so far. I think we as a community (1) ask for the key(s), (2) offer a token payment to "buy" the keys, (3) pursue a lawsuit to put pressure on them to do the right thing if they are uncooperative.

-Chris

PS: It's ironic that our respect for "theft of service" has put us in a spot at this stage.

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post #189 of 687 Old 06-17-2011, 10:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mattw22 View Post
I called Replay support because I have two extra 5000's series I never activated. They told me that even though the units aren't activated they will be able to manual record after July 31st. They also said (which I'm skeptical) that the time servers at Replay will still be intact after July 31st it's just the program data going away.
Most of us were told everything was going down because they are closing Replay down for good (I was told so far by two different reps). No servers providing anything - time or otherwise.
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post #190 of 687 Old 06-17-2011, 10:46 AM
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The company must issue a reason for this action. Simply to state that they are shuting down is not good enough. Are they going bankrupt, being bought, merging, or what?

Of the term lifetime, it means the life of the company, which ends July 31.

I am certain a company representative is reviewing this thread, and do hope he sees the large and growing concern from customers over the company's poor actions.
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post #191 of 687 Old 06-17-2011, 11:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frankl69 View Post

After scanning this discussion, it seems that all potential solutions relate to PC users. Does anyone have a suggestion for a lifetime Mac user, other than "get a PC"?

Frank

Have a look at EyeTV; the software seems great, and my (hardware encoding) tuner is doing a decent job.
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post #192 of 687 Old 06-17-2011, 11:23 AM
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It's been a long time since I visited this forum or used a ReplayTV, but my sister-in-law has an old one of mine and I was stopping by to see what the conversation looked like.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hdonzis View Post

This was never a hitch and you can configure WiRNS to get the time from any time server, not just DNNA...

Just to let you know, WiRNS handles almost all of the steps that Doug posted. Pretty much the only one it doesn't handle/can't handle is the "checking activation" step. But, I'm confident that this will be worked out in the long run. People already run WiRNS without any connection to DNNA at all, so except for some initial setup, it may not be a problem at all if DNNA shuts down all their servers...

Henry

I'm a little alarmed at this comment, because I don't want people to have a false sense of security about what happens in August. WiRNS may be able to get the time from any time server, but it can't provide the time to a 4xxx/5xxx series ReplayTV to cause it to set the time on the device. That message is signed and can't be faked by WiRNS unless the key is released, and the API to set the clock is not available via command line. Since the 4.3 software release over 5 years ago, the 4xxx/5xxx boxes have used the inability to set the clock as part of their security feature to prevent people from buying the subsidized units and not paying a monthly subscription. No one has found a way to manually set the clock on a 4xxx/5xx unit with the 4.3 or newer software (and going back to 4.1 software requires reprogramming the non-socketed EEPROM). And without the ability to set the clock on the device, drifting/power outage/etc will turn the 4xxx/5xxx series boxes into digital VCRs with the clock forever blinking (i.e. you can start recording what's on, but you can't even program a manual recording because the time will be wrong.)

There is good reason for 4xxx/5xxx owners to be alarmed by this and to raise a stink now rather than waiting until the servers are turned off. I'm confidant that if the key is released, the WiRNS team could put together a working solution, but if it is not (and so far D&M Holdings have not said that they will), I expect all 4xxx / 5xxx boxes will be nearly unusable due to the clock.
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post #193 of 687 Old 06-17-2011, 11:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hdonzis View Post


I'd have to check on my 3K, but I've only really played with it on a 5K, so I don't know if the feature exists on the older models or not...

There is a manual clock set control panel that you can install depending on the version of firmware that you have. This is only for the older units, so that might take care of at least that problem for you...

Henry

A link to the manual clock set control panel software would be great (not that I know how it might be installed.) Thanks
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post #194 of 687 Old 06-17-2011, 11:57 AM
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I have done the following tests.
1: Kill the power. That resets the time to 0:00 of Nov12 1999. It also makes the guide unavailable. It does, however, permit me to use the RF Blaster.
2: Clear the Guide. When I do that time is still OK but RF Blaster doesn't work.
3: Without an accurate guide and accurate time the Record function is useless.

So my hope is that since they store the cable company info in ROM rather than RAM I might be able to use the RF Blaster as long as I never do a clear of the Guide. As for the clock - the first power outage will reset it and then the only way I can do a recording is to see what the current clock setting is and do some fancy arithmetic. I am presuming also that each night I will get an alarm that I was unable to get through to the network. I doubt pulling the telephone jack will help. Ugly situation.
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post #195 of 687 Old 06-17-2011, 12:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jptsetme View Post


I'm a little alarmed at this comment, because I don't want people to have a false sense of security about what happens in August. WiRNS may be able to get the time from any time server, but it can't provide the time to a 4xxx/5xxx series ReplayTV to cause it to set the time on the device. That message is signed and can't be faked by WiRNS unless the key is released, and the API to set the clock is not available via command line. Since the 4.3 software release over 5 years ago, the 4xxx/5xxx boxes have used the inability to set the clock as part of their security feature to prevent people from buying the subsidized units and not paying a monthly subscription. No one has found a way to manually set the clock on a 4xxx/5xx unit with the 4.3 or newer software (and going back to 4.1 software requires reprogramming the non-socketed EEPROM). And without the ability to set the clock on the device, drifting/power outage/etc will turn the 4xxx/5xxx series boxes into digital VCRs with the clock forever blinking (i.e. you can start recording what's on, but you can't even program a manual recording because the time will be wrong.)

Wow, that sounds bad!
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post #196 of 687 Old 06-17-2011, 12:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sbwinter2 View Post

Can you explain what you mean by "updates without the internet?" My replays will not update anything without connecting first via the internet.

Actually, that's only true because the update server that you are currently using is out on the Internet. When you run WiRNS in your home, then you have brought the update server into your home and you no longer need the Internet for your RTVs to connect to it...

Henry
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post #197 of 687 Old 06-17-2011, 12:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by terabid View Post

I have done the following tests.
1: Kill the power. That resets the time to 0:00 of Nov12 1999. It also makes the guide unavailable. It does, however, permit me to use the RF Blaster.
2: Clear the Guide. When I do that time is still OK but RF Blaster doesn't work.
3: Without an accurate guide and accurate time the Record function is useless.

So my hope is that since they store the cable company info in ROM rather than RAM I might be able to use the RF Blaster as long as I never do a clear of the Guide. As for the clock - the first power outage will reset it and then the only way I can do a recording is to see what the current clock setting is and do some fancy arithmetic. I am presuming also that each night I will get an alarm that I was unable to get through to the network. I doubt pulling the telephone jack will help. Ugly situation.

How does killing the power reset the clock? I have an extra unit that sits without power for weeks and doesn't loose the clock.
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post #198 of 687 Old 06-17-2011, 12:25 PM
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I just got notice of this today and just have to say that i am less than pleased.
Manual Record = bricked Replaytv

Like they say, all good things must come to an end.
RIP replaytv
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post #199 of 687 Old 06-17-2011, 12:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glenburg View Post

the time will fault out, but if the rest works then would be a good sign that wirns can allow the replays to go on.

That's a good point! I guess the people using WiRNS without an Internet connection must have an NTP server running somewhere that they can connect to. If the RTV can't get the time, then it will fail the net connect...

Although, that said, I guess the correct thing I should have said is that it will say that there were errors net connecting. Whether it will still update the guide with the new information, or throw everything away because it couldn't set the time, I never checked...

Henry
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post #200 of 687 Old 06-17-2011, 12:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sbwinter2 View Post

How does killing the power reset the clock? I have an extra unit that sits without power for weeks and doesn't loose the clock.

His motherboard battery (or capacitor, not sure which) is dead.

If only that was the worst of his problems

Robert

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post #201 of 687 Old 06-17-2011, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by gring40 View Post

A link to the manual clock set control panel software would be great (not that I know how it might be installed.) Thanks

Searching, I found it here. Although, that's not where I remember finding it previously, so there may be other places...

Henry
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post #202 of 687 Old 06-17-2011, 12:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hdonzis View Post

Searching, I found it here. Although, that's not where I remember finding it previously, so there may be other places...

Henry

Here's some information describing its use. I'm not quite sure that I understand it though (post #9)

http://archive2.avsforum.com/avs-vb/...d.php?t=493046

I think it only works on older units
http://archive2.avsforum.com/avs-vb/...d.php?t=508377
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post #203 of 687 Old 06-17-2011, 01:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gatomon View Post

I think the question of survival of Replaytv after July 31 will come down to the encryption keys. This group has all the pieces except for the functions that were introduced with the model 5xxx's.

A bit of history. Prior to the 5xxx's, all units were "lifetime", so no encryption was needed. To compete with Tivo, which sold the boxes cheaper by having monthly fees, ReplayTV introduced a two tier system. Once you bought the box, you could upgrade to "lifetime" or pay a monthly fee. In order to keep people from thwarting this system, encryption was introduced to provide authorization and activation. From what I've read, they used "ElGamal encryption and/or signature scheme" ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ElGamal_signature_scheme and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ElGamal_encryption). They didn't invent this nor do they own it. (As it happens, I've met the inventor and I'm a friend of his brother who is a Professor at Stanford). It's purpose was to keep un-activated boxes from being activated by a third party and to keep monthly customers from getting "lifetime" without paying the fee.

I think that life after July 31 will mostly depend on finding the "private" encryption key(s). Since Replaytv has stopped selling service, it is now not a "theft of service" to obtain these keys. Unless someone somehow figures out the key(s) (it's possible some out there has done this), the only way would be to get the owners, or someone with access, to reveal the key(s). This would not compromise any IP or such and would be clearly the right thing to do.

Will they? I don't know. They should, but they have not been very forthcoming so far. I think we as a community (1) ask for the key(s), (2) offer a token payment to "buy" the keys, (3) pursue a lawsuit to put pressure on them to do the right thing if they are uncooperative.

-Chris

PS: It's ironic that our respect for "theft of service" has put us in a spot at this stage.

Does anyone know how many bits the key is? Keeping in mind the code used for this is almost 15 years old now, it's very possible that it would be feasible to brute-force this key on a small cluster of modern hardware.

Quality Assurance Manager, Ceton Corporation
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post #204 of 687 Old 06-17-2011, 01:56 PM
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I reported in another thread that I have two 5040 units, refurbs, not activated (also two 5040's under daily use). Yesterday, I tested the two refurbs and both were recognized by the service as non-activated. although one did initialize it's 10-day, free trial period.

Today, I tried the refurbs again. The one in the trial period net connected and reported that new software was available. I accepted the software update and noted that it updated to the current version 530511440. But I also noted that it was now "Activated"! I connected the second unit and it still displayed the screen stating that the unit had to be activated. I clicked "Connect Now" and it talked to the mothership and reported activation as successful. I confirmed that the unit could in fact access the guide and cable input channels and does in fact appear to be activated.
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post #205 of 687 Old 06-17-2011, 01:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erickotz View Post

Does anyone know how many bits the key is? Keeping in mind the code used for this is almost 15 years old now, it's very possible that it would be feasible to brute-force this key on a small cluster of modern hardware.

I saw this link earlier today;
http://www.wirns.com/twiki/FileVerification
Does that answer your question?
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post #206 of 687 Old 06-17-2011, 02:15 PM
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After scanning this discussion, it seems that all potential solutions relate to PC users. Does anyone have a suggestion for a lifetime Mac user, other than "get a PC"?

Frank

Ummmm....put a Windows machine on your Mac as a virtual machine, and go to town. Launch it as necessary for WiRNS to do its thing, then quit it when that's done. Lather, rinse, repeat.

I'm a lifetime Mac user (well, the lifetime of Macintosh--see, there's that nebulous term "lifetime" again) and don't have a problem seeing that a computer operating system is a tool, not a lifestyle or a devotion. Many things happen in Windows that are wonderful and good and make me happy, so I use Windows for those things. I use Macintosh for others.

But hanging on to "I'm a devoted Macintosh man and therefore must by definition hate Windows, therefore I cannot under any circumstance run Windows for any reason whatsoever" is just silly. It's cutting off your nose to spite your face.

I suggest if you want your life to be like that, that you get a Mini and EyeTV, for example, or Sage, or whatever.
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post #207 of 687 Old 06-17-2011, 02:19 PM
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The company must issue a reason for this action. Simply to state that they are shuting down is not good enough.

Ummmmm....yes it is.

What do you think anyone in this world owes you? Do you think you're ENTITLED to know what anyone is thinking at any given time?

Their reasons are THEIR reasons, and you are not ENTITLED to know anything about their reasons.

Wow.
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post #208 of 687 Old 06-17-2011, 02:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jweinel View Post

I reported in another thread that I have two 5040 units, refurbs, not activated (also two 5040's under daily use). Yesterday, I tested the two refurbs and both were recognized by the service as non-activated. although one did initialize it's 10-day, free trial period.

Today, I tried the refurbs again. The one in the trial period net connected and reported that new software was available. I accepted the software update and noted that it updated to the current version 530511440. But I also noted that it was now "Activated"! I connected the second unit and it still displayed the screen stating that the unit had to be activated. I clicked "Connect Now" and it talked to the mothership and reported activation as successful. I confirmed that the unit could in fact access the guide and cable input channels and does in fact appear to be activated.

After reading this I hooked one of my never activated bricks and after a net connect with the mother ship, it is Activated.
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post #209 of 687 Old 06-17-2011, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by hdonzis View Post


Searching, I found it here. Although, that's not where I remember finding it previously, so there may be other places...

Henry

Perfect; many thanks. I think I could do that. OTOH, I'm half-way towards making EyeTV do it all for me, scandalous as that sounds :-)
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post #210 of 687 Old 06-17-2011, 02:53 PM
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So there's two ways to approach this:
#1. Get the private key used by the ReplayTV for signing. From what I know, this is impractical to brute-force. This means getting someone from ReplayTV to release it. From a practical standpoint, this key is useless to them now, so there's no reason they shouldn't release it, but they probably won't. That said, if anyone has any contacts, please ask them - getting this would be awesome. I just pinged someone I know that used to work there, but I doubt he still has any contacts.

#2. Hack the signing checks. I was just chatting with a friend about this, and hacking the checks shouldn't be too hard, however, we have to change the software on the unit. Given this unit has an old version of VxWorks, we did a quick check and found a few known vulnerabilities that had MetaSploit support. The thought there would be to use a VxWorks exploit to make a payload to drop on the ReplayTV which patches the signing checks.

Quality Assurance Manager, Ceton Corporation
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