Replay MPEG Sync problem, this tool may help us... - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 396 Old 05-30-2003, 06:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jeff D
...Jim, how silly do you feel about the "magic" audio stretch that just happened to work? I'm still curious how that ever worked, especially since the number used for calculations was a bug in vdub mod. Odd.
Um...Very silly, indeed! I guess that the "stretching" of the audio, even if listerally just a handfull of frames, was just enough to bring things back into sync. Obviously, this was just coincidental, but the funny thing is that it worked--or worked enough that I didn't notice any cync issues.

Of course, had I devoted the time spent on messing with the audio to rebuilding my system into a clean install, I would have had a TON more DVDs burned by now!!! ;)

-Jim

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post #92 of 396 Old 05-30-2003, 11:38 AM
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Clean install here I come ... !

But FYI here's my odd situation and how I got around it ...

My medium 5060 files of 2 hr movies are in synch after downloading from the replay via DVArchive. I view them in Womble and they look fine. It's when I save (with or without editing, with or without GOP fix) to a new file within Womble itself that it becomes out of synch.

I've worked around this by taking a 2 hr file, splitting it into 30 min segments in Womble and saving each to a file. (Maybe these 30 minute files are slightly out of synch but it's so small I can't tell.) I then reload them into Womble and from then on I can save, edit, etc and make an in synch (or verry very close to it :) ) DVD with DVDLab.

Again thanks for all the advice and congratulations to those who've fixed their issues. :)

PS Do you all think XP pro is neccesary or is XP Home ok too. ?

"I am rarely happier than when spending an entire day programming my computer to perform automatically a task that it would otherwise take me a good ten seconds to do by hand" - Douglas Adams
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post #93 of 396 Old 05-30-2003, 12:07 PM
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Sounds to me like womble is the problem then
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post #94 of 396 Old 05-30-2003, 12:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by kb2tdu
so ... Rich A, your setup is RAID 0? :confused:
Yep, four 7200 UDMA 133 drives striped in a 0 (zero) array. All drives are configured as masters.

I double checked last night with SiSoft Sandra benchmarking and found the average thru put for sustained sequential writing was 85 MB/second.

I'm curious about why the big increase going from a mother board with an on-board RAID, to a separate stand alone RAID controller.

The on board Raid was a UDMA 100 and it was the same "pack" of drives.

This might have had something to do with the way the IRQ's were shared. If I recall, the on-board RAID controller shared an IRQ with PCI slot #4 and something else. I had more control over the install of the new PCI card Raid and made sure it was in a "non-shared" PCI slot.

I still don't understand the relationship between Windows IRQ managment and the board level "post" assignments. Checking in Windows there's about 8 items sharing one IRQ. Yet in the BIOS level I have certain PCI slots fixed and dedicated to certain IRQs. This is from my early days working with AGP slot video capture cards ATI All in Wonder) , where the sound card in PCI slot 1 (which always shares the AGP IRQ) would create all kinds of video capturng probles like dropped frames and .. gasp .. audio sync problems.

One problem almost all the ATI crowd had was using a Sound Blaster Live in PCI #1 with an AGP ATI Capture card. Funny thing is ... I tried to duplicate the problem by getting a Sound Blaster Live and sticking in PCI slot #1 ... which SHOULD have created problems. But .. alas .. as usual, the problem would NOT manifest itself in my environment. For years I worked with guys trying to fix their ATI sound sync problems. Had success with many .. but a few just could NOT get around the problem and ended up buying some other card capable of capturing.

Like I said .. I've had extensive experiance with video capture problems .. and the problems the RPTV crowd is having is not at all unique.

As for the RAID requirement ... it does make somewhat of a difference with disc intensive tasks, however my primary need is to be able to capture real time AVI frames in full colour and full screen. My old 30 MB/s Raid controllers were right at the ragged edge. Even then I'd drop a few frames occassionally. So now I'm really pumped as the new Raid performance should give me a more reliable capture.

Why capture in AVI you ask? Well for that one-off extra special show or some personal family video, where I'd want the BEST I could do, I use AVI to capture (no I don't have a DV camcorder yet) and then use a high quality encoder with several passes to create the DVD video. This will always give you mpeg final quality as close to the commercial stuff as you can get. But it takes hours and hours. FWIW, I use the Ligos encoder and have tried TMPGenc with similar result. I paid for the Ligos, so that's what I use. But not very often. Haven't gone that route in over a year now. But it's all there and in place should I ever want to produce that "special" DVD.

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post #95 of 396 Old 05-30-2003, 12:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by mrscsi
Sounds to me like womble is the problem then
There's been much discussion about this "post edit sync problem" in MANY different areas. Dazzle capture, ATI capture, Leadtek capture and even some software encoded mpeg. In all cases it's where the video plays fine prior to even parsing it through "some" editor and then after the parse or edit, the video is out of sync.

It's NOT unique to Womble or the RPTV mpegs. It's really rather common.

If you have the latest version of Womble and still have the trouble then it's most likely NOT womble but again something in your system that is causing Womble to not render correctly. Note .. very early versions of womble had a problem with ATI mpeg captures specifically. (and some other mpegs too) This was because the ATI used a 3rd padding stream when there was a problem with audio/video syncing. When you ran it though Womble, Womble didn't know what that 3rd stream was .. so when Womble rendered and muxed the new video, it didn't use it. The result was a pretty badly out of sync video. Womble (again at users requests) came out with a subsequent version that DID work with the padding stream. And the problems went away. Then later editions of the ATI multimedia center (capture utility) came out with a new scheme and (I think) a more "standard" way of padding the video/audio. From that point on, even the older versions of Womble would work fine.

I found the odd 3rd stream padding problem by de-multiplexing an ATI Mpeg capture with TMPGenc. TMPGenc would actually show THREE steams being de-muxed. And it would call one "unknown stream". Because this "unknown" stream was more or less proprietary to ATI mpegs, many editors had trouble with it.

I never had a problem myself. But my system was always able to capture without needing to "pad" anything. If I de-muxed my own ATI mpegs I would indeed find THREE streams, but the mysterious 3rd stream in my case has little or no content. So it made no difference whether my editor stripped the stream or not. Zero from zero is still zero. Other guys WITH the need for padding would find that stream rather large compared to mine.

Well, that's the PESS thing as I like to call it. (P)ost (E)dit (S)ync (S)yndrome) :p

Rich
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post #96 of 396 Old 05-30-2003, 12:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by jbarr
Um...Very silly, indeed! I guess that the "stretching" of the audio, even if listerally just a handfull of frames, was just enough to bring things back into sync. Obviously, this was just coincidental, but the funny thing is that it worked--or worked enough that I didn't notice any cync issues.

Of course, had I devoted the time spent on messing with the audio to rebuilding my system into a clean install, I would have had a TON more DVDs burned by now!!! ;)
Jim, looking back we can laugh. I'm sure I've got stories to top yours, including manually correcting A&V on each segment between commercial breaks. Over and over and over til perfection. Days wasted, although I do believe these mpeg streams were bad and I needed to do this extra work. *at least that's my story and I'm sticking to it*

The DVD media manufacturers will be loving the sales this development will generate. =)
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post #97 of 396 Old 05-30-2003, 09:10 PM
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Quote:
The DVD media manufacturers will be loving the sales this development will generate. =)
What's that supposed to mean?
Nothing so far in this thread identifies the out of sync problem cause
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post #98 of 396 Old 05-31-2003, 08:49 AM
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Hey "Harry",

Very true. And the point is you'll never see a "catch all" solution because the PROBLEM can be caused by a ka-jillion different things. That's why I keep saying the only way to have a CHANCE at success is to start with a dedicated system or at least a fresh system to weed out all the accumulated problems. I CAN define most of the problems causing audio/video sync. But frankly the list would be too long to really be of any help. When your "possible" problem can be one of a hundred different scenarios, the EASIEST way to fix it is to eliminate them all by starting with a fresh OS install.

Sorry if the truth hurts .. but just do a google search for Audio Sync problems or Sync and such. You'll see hundreds of thousands of posts, articles and such all from every corner of the PC universe covering just about every kind of hardware and software combination.

THAT's why there is so much frustration here. Finding your own unique answer when you have to sift through a haystack of answers is a loooonnggg drawn out process. Although not a 100 percent fix, starting from scratch is your best shot.

Where starting from scratch won't help, will be because of your installed hardware and it's configuration. (which even a fresh os install might not help)

As I've mentioned, Sound cards (and certain brands too) have trouble sharing hardware interrupts. Best to examine your main board details closely and choose which slots to put various cards into.

Why does my system work so well? Well I start at the very beginning. Choosing the best mother board feature set to fit my needs. Then I do a lot of "tweaking" of the hardware install. Like I don't need the IRQ for a COM2. (So I disable Com2 and assign IRQ3 to the slot where my NIC card is installed ) Ditto the 2nd parallel port. So IRQ 5 is also dedicated to something else. (usually the sound card) Of course with these new main boards with everything integrated onto them, it becomes more of a problem. Point is all the reassignment of PCI slots and IRQs requires a main board that can be set up that way.

Frankly the last two main boards I've bought required very little tweaking. One of the advantages of having the NIC, FireWire and other things built in, is that they are part of the over-all engineering scheme and were designed and their operation was taken into account during the main board's design process.

BUT that doesn't give you free reign to stick any old accessory card into any old slot. On board NIC's share a PCI slot interrupt. So do on Board Sound systems. And add an on board RAID controller to the mix and you suddenly find you only really have 2 of those 5 available slots that are completely free of conflicts.

BUT .. like I said .. there are a ton of variations. For example SOME PCI cards are better designed that others. They CAN and DO work well when paired with other card's interrupts. I've found however, the ATI AGP "capture" cards generally don't play well with many things. So in that case it's always a safe bet to NOT put a sound card (which is part of the whole audio video environment) in the first PCI slot. Which card, which mother board, which video card all make a difference. So the variations and possibilities of hardware problems causing sync problems are varied and many. And we haven't even touched on software, or drivers yet.

ONE important thing that I'm finding that IS new is windows XP. I've been running a 2000 and XP system side by side since XP first came out. I've always said that Win2K was the most stable and compatible operating system for multimedia editing and creation. I still say that with ONE exception. The only reason I don't like XP is because it's not a great system for "backward compatibility" with a lot of hardware. If your system is rather new and all your hardware (and software) is of the latest types and versions, then I'm inclined to go with XP. Yes, I know I've always stated Win2K was the way to go. But time marches on. And we learn things. And IF you have the latest stuff, XP might be the best way to go after all. Why?

Well just recently I upgraded my system (I do this every six months on average) And I've run into some problems with the re-install of some of my hardware and software. Many of the software system files are shared with other software's files. Many DLL's are common to several programs. The problem is one I'm sure everyone has come across from time to time. Where you un-install something or install something and find that one or two OTHER programs are affected. It's the "commonly shared" files that get upgraded and changed that cause the problem.

WindowsXP attempts to get around that problem. And is one of the reasons I am cautiously saying it may be THE system to use. XP will allow software to run under it's own set of system files. Now the result is you may have various copies of the same DLLs and other system files in various places. BUT when you un-install one program or install a new one, it keeps it's own needed system files intact. I'm working on a problem right now (Win2K) where a newly installed application will work on one system but not the other. Two identical operating systems. But one computer has several more programs installed. Because the install of one of those additional programs over-wrote a shared component, the previously installed program stopped working.

Hower, doing the same exact thing with two XP systems there is no conflict and in fact doing a search for common files to the two sharing programs shows several existing on the XP systems, and only two on the 2000 systems. This by itself is one of the reasons I like XP. What I don't like is how "picky" it is when trying to run older hardware that DOES work perfectly in 2000.

Okay as usual I've digressed and probably got the readers mostly blowing ZZ's and nodding off.

The point of all this is .. there is NO simple solution to this problem of audio sync. All my pontificating over the last couple years should attest to that. I'm just trying to share the very big universe of experience I've had in the computer world. Am I smart? Not really. Am I an engineer? No. Do I have any kind of degree hanging on my wall? No. As I often say, "I've just been there and done that". I just offer my experience, good, bad or indifferent in hopes it may help someone else.

You know .. I spend about 10 hours trying to help people for every hour I spend working with my own digital video. But then what I have been doing with digital stuff in an hour usually takes everyone else 10 hours or more. :D I'm comfortable with the equation. (so far) heh heh.

Rich
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post #99 of 396 Old 05-31-2003, 09:39 AM
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Rich,

Which program do you use to encode avi to mpeg2 with multiple passes? I have a Canopus ADVC100 Bridge to capture DV avi's with. I use TMPGEnc's 2 pass VBR function to encode. The results are really great, and TMPG is cheap at 49 bucks. Just wondering if you have compared TMPG encoding jobs with other programs.

A

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post #100 of 396 Old 05-31-2003, 10:08 AM
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Yes I agree on TMPGenc. I'm still using the "old" original "free" version. Although that's not really cricket I guess. The new 2.5 version is really the way to go (I've used that too for the trial period) At 49 bucks it's the best working deal for your money.

I'm very big on the Ligos Encoder. I did some beta testing for them a few years back and own the product. To be honest, I haven't been doing very much AVI work lately. Maybe only one or two times in the last year. I prefer Liqos for a quick one pass DVD or SVCD option. But for the best, I use TMPGenc multipass. I find it's very configurable and if you get the profiles tweaked just right the results can be impressive. (I think the last time I did any AVI to MPEG was perhaps 8 or 9 months ago) A project I put aside.

But since you asked .. heh heh ... When my father died last year I found some WW II film in 8mm format that he had taken while stationed in Quadlcanal in the South Seas. He was assigned to the 57th engineer battalion and also was part of the re-inforced first marine division. He saw a lot of action (has a ton of metals and a couple citations) and he also did some combat photography. (he was a photographer of course) Some of his stuff was used to make up the Victory At Sea documentary.

Anyway, the government took all his footage and he managed to keep a 40 minute reel for himself. I found it. To my knowledge it's never been viewed. (I also found about 100 15 minute reels of 16 mm film that I haven't even looked at yet) So I first had this 8mm film converted to SVHS video. (I have a good SVHS tape deck and wanted to use that to make the conversion to ultimately mpeg DVD) However the original video is of course rough. Some under and over exposure and such. Especially where he was running from a Jap Zero shooting at him. (and filming all the way I might add) Soooo, to make a long story short (is that possible for me?) I'm first capturing it to uncompressed AVI and then using VirtualDub with all it's various filters, segment by segment to correct the various problems where I can. Once the master AVI is finished I'll most likely THEN buy the latest TMPGenc and encode the whole thing to DVD. I put the project aside about 8 months ago and haven't had time go further with it.

I think it could be of great interest to any survivors of the Guadalcanal theater. Most of the footage is of the toops playing around and such in the area of the air fields they secured. I even have a few minutes of Greg "Pappy" Boyington being filmed by a film crew for a press release. I think it might have been the "MovieTone" people who were doing the newsreel. (If you don't know who "Boyington" was look up "The Black Sheep Squadron) Dad was making his own movie OF a movie being made. Pretty cool. I have been searching the archives trying to find THAT newsreel clip but so far have not. (I also found Boyington's autograph on the back of a picture of my mom in that film cannister) Guess dad met him and had him autograph the only thing he carried with him throughout his 3 years in the south pacific other than his rifle and camera. A picture of his "girl back home". Uh .. gee, Mom was a babe! <Big Grin>

Ah .. well as usual I digress. Sorry .. Last weekend (memorial day) it was a year ago we buried dad. Sigh ...

Rich
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post #101 of 396 Old 05-31-2003, 01:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by HarryTheHat
What's that supposed to mean?
Nothing so far in this thread identifies the out of sync problem cause
Two things were ment by this... first comment about DVD manufacturers loving the development was in reference to jim's comment about he would have made many more DVDs if he hadn't been trying to "fix" the sync issues he was having.

Second part
The sync problem *most* people are seeing on the PC playback is caused by the codecs and tools installed. Look at the first post, that's what I was asking for with this thread, lets get know bad and good renderpaths down and figure out what's causing the problem, so far two suspected culprits, ligos and elcard.

I believe we are starting to get a known set of codecs and tools wich will work and not cause problem. Although I've been asking people when doing the clean installs to post the renderpaths from gspot for more data, but you can only ask so many times. Seems once your system is working better people choose to play with editing. =(
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post #102 of 396 Old 05-31-2003, 02:03 PM
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I can't wait for the "GSpot" people to come out with the "add/remove" codec option set. Heck I'd pay for a utility like that. heh heh.

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post #103 of 396 Old 05-31-2003, 02:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Rich, me too! That will be a welcomed feature, I'll love that!
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post #104 of 396 Old 05-31-2003, 07:00 PM
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Great Thread guys, Thanks! I too suffered audio sync problems after editing in womble. Replay mpg's were in sync but were outta sync after trimming in womble.
I used Gspot to figure out the differences in the original and edited files. After editing, the video codec associated with Sonic MyDVD showed up. So I uninstalled that program, edited a fresh copy of a replay mpeg, it now shows the same codecs for the original replay mpg as well as the edited mpg, and no more sync problems! Burn't a DVD of the 2 hour movie and it played perfectly in my standalone player. WOO HOO!
:)
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post #105 of 396 Old 06-01-2003, 06:11 AM
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JDN,

Can you tell us which codecs showed before & after?

Thanks

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post #106 of 396 Old 06-01-2003, 08:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by jdn
Great Thread guys, Thanks! I too suffered audio sync problems after editing in womble. Replay mpg's were in sync but were outta sync after trimming in womble.
I used Gspot to figure out the differences in the original and edited files. After editing, the video codec associated with Sonic MyDVD showed up. So I uninstalled that program, edited a fresh copy of a replay mpeg, it now shows the same codecs for the original replay mpg as well as the edited mpg, and no more sync problems! Burn't a DVD of the 2 hour movie and it played perfectly in my standalone player. WOO HOO!
:)
Wow, now THAT's a valuable bit of information. And it makes a lot of sense. Prior to editing, the ReplayTV mpeg is just a "RAW" non-standard mpeg as far as the muxing rates and other things go. So it's a "guess" as to which codec will work or takes control.

After editing, it's changed to a more proper standard program stream. And as such another codec could come into play. The two codec may be fighting each other <grin>

A further test would be to leave the offending codec in place. Do an edit. Check the playback to ensure the sync is still bogus. Then delete the offending codec and check that same file again.

In other words, this will prove that the edited mpeg was okay all along and the problem was ONLY a playback issue because of a codec that wasn't "playing nice" in the environment.

I would venture that the problem could be caused by any number of different codecs. But really shows up when ... (and maybe this is key)

You have more than one codec assigned to playback the same format.

Maybe this is why the "re-install" of windows works for some. They may ONLY need to remove "excess" codecs instead of re-installing the OS (which is doing the same thing ) If you can get rid of the offending codec .. that may be the whole (and easy) solution.

Thanks ...for a MOST interesting post !!

Rich
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post #107 of 396 Old 06-01-2003, 11:25 AM
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Just took a look at my file associations under XP and all my "movie clips" which seem to be a good number of various extensions are going to the OLD media player not the new one. With that said when I go to play one it does use media player 9 however.

I dont have any sync problems and use m2edit and dvdit or dvd complete.

The video codecs I have installed are:

Cinepak
Indeo
Indeo video 5.10
Ir41_32.ax
Iyuv_32.dll
Microsoft mpeg 4 v3
Microsoft rle
Microsoft Video 1
Msh261.drv
Msh263.drv
Msyuv.dll
Tsbyuv.dll

The only audio codecs that deal with mpeg is Frauhofer IIS Mpeg Layer 3 Codec Advanced and Indeo
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post #108 of 396 Old 06-01-2003, 03:59 PM
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That Frauhofer IIS Mpeg Layer 3 Codec is an audio only codec I'm pretty sure. And the Indeo codecs are an AVI compressed format. I have used one of the Indeo codecs myself when capturing compressed AVI. I believe the original Indeo was bought out and is now part of the Ligos world. But it's sitll AVI. I believe the Cinepak is your only Mpeg (both video and audio) codec. With just that alone, that could be why you don't have any problems.

It's looking more and more that some problems are being caused by the "Clash Of The Codecs". (no relationship to the Clash of the Titans) <grin>

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post #109 of 396 Old 06-01-2003, 06:36 PM
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Quote:
Can you tell us which codecs showed before & after?
OK, but here's the weird part, I tried to edit another movie today, (just trimming a little off the beginning and ending), and the audio was out of sync. I played around with it for hours and I could get it in sync if I broke it into 15 minute segments, pasted to the clipboard and then reassembled. Then I tried a third movie, trimmed a little from the beginning and end, saved it and it was in perfect sync!? What gives?
anyway, with the Sonic MyDVD installed the codecs for a raw replay (in sync) mpeg were
Video MPEG-2 Demultiplexor-> InterVideo Video Decoder
Audio MPEG-2 Demultiplexor-> Ligos MPEG Audio Decoder->Morgan Stream Switcher

An edited (out of sync) mpg showed
Video Ligos MPEG Splitter->Ligos MPEG Video Decoder->Overlay Mixer
Audio Ligos MPEG Splitter->Ligos MPEG Audio Decoder->Morgan Stream Switcher

After uninstalling the MyDVD software:
Raw replay mpg
Video MPEG-2 Demultiplexor->InterVideo Video Decoder
Audio MPEG-3 Demultiplexor->InterVideo Audio Decoder->Morgan Stream Switcher

Edited mpg showed the same codecs as the raw one.

It seems very strange that a raw replay mpg always plays in sync but an edited mpg, (using the same codecs), may or may not be in sync. I'll keep experimenting to see what I can find.
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post #110 of 396 Old 06-02-2003, 12:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Rich, Frauhofer is MP3.

jdn puts another strike against Ligos.... I think Ligos is leading the race in "bad" codec points. My first choice was to remove them. Uninstall didn't work, search for lmpg*.ax in you windows directory (system32 directory I believe)

mrscsi care to post your render paths? use gspot as described in first post in the thread. (or did you already do this?)
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post #111 of 396 Old 06-02-2003, 05:25 AM
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(S) --> Mediamatics MPEG-2 Splitter --> DVD Express Video Decoder --> (R)
(S) --> Mediamatics MPEG-2 Splitter --> Ligos MPEG Audio Decoder --> (R)

This is what I get with gspot. Like I have said before I do not have any sync problems and havent rebuilt my box in 5 months anyway :)

I am sure though the mediamatics comes from the Dazzle Digital Video Creator II software called moviestar that I used to use as my main capture device. The card and software are still on the box.

MrScsi
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post #112 of 396 Old 06-02-2003, 07:08 AM
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Well, I finally had a chance to play with things a bit. I downloaded "Spider-Man" from my ReplayTV 5040 box and I made several tests. The results were mixed, but I was able to determine the specific causes for the problem areas.

The first thing I did was to play the file in Womble and in PowerDVD to check the audio sync. It was dead-on. Next, I scrubbed through the two-hour file using Womble and found that the final time index at the end was "01:59:21" Strange, because it was a two-hour clip. Running the file through PowerDVD showed that the file was exactly 2 hours long. The file played in both Womble and PowerDVD without any audio sync issues.

So, I cut off the front couple minutes of leading stuff and cut out the last few seconds of trailing stuff and saved the remainder as one large file. The results played with the audio out-of-sync in both Womble and PowerDVD. So, I went back into Womble and loaded the original file (with the bad time index) and cut copied 4 sections, each being 20 minutes (with the first section starating at the actual beginning of the movie and the last section ending at the actual end of the movie) and I then pasted them together into a new file and saved the file. The results played flawlessly in Womble, PowereDVD, and ultimatly on a DVD-R in both of my standalone players. I was satisfied that I got a good DVD, but I was still curious as to why things were out of sync again.

Running the original file through Womble's GOP fixer threw everything out of sync.

So, I decided to run the original file through "gspot" and sure enough, it showed different video and audio codecs from what they used to be. Using gspot's Video codec listing, I was able to track down that the new codec that "took over" was installed upon installing DVDComplete Deluxe. So, I uninstalled DVDComplete, and gspot shows the original codecs agian.

Next step is to run the file through Womble again and verify the ending time index and try saving a segment again and check the audio sync.

So lesson learned: Whenever you install ANYTHING new, run a ReplayTV file through gspot and see if anything changed.

Unfortunatly, I didn't have a good chance to do much more ReplayTV MPEG testing because I have been authoring two DVDs for church. I videotaped two choir concerts to MiniDV and then captured them to giant .AVI files. The sound had a lot of noise in it so I saved out the sound track to a .wav file using GoldWave (VirtualDub wouldn't read the .avi for some reason) and then used CoolEdit to reduce background noise and hiss. I will then use that new sound track to author the final DVD and to also create a CD that some have requested. I have been using Pinnacle Studio 8, and have had HUGE success authoring almost-professional quality DVDs from .avi files. Unfortunatly, Pinnacle Studio 8 gets a massive case of lethargy when I try to author DVDs using MPEG-2 ReplayTV files. Disk thrashing so bad that I feel like ducking waiting for shrapnel to come flying out. So I use other authoring tools for those.

Anyway, enough rambling...

-Jim

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post #113 of 396 Old 06-02-2003, 08:47 AM
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It seems like you guys have discovered the real issue here, but I'd like to throw my two cents into the diagnostic discussion:

Quote:
Originally posted by Rich A
A further test would be to leave the offending codec in place. Do an edit. Check the playback to ensure the sync is still bogus. Then delete the offending codec and check that same file again.

In other words, this will prove that the edited mpeg was okay all along and the problem was ONLY a playback issue because of a codec that wasn't "playing nice" in the environment.
I'm guess that this theory will be disproven. I'm pretty sure that we know the mpeg is not okay, because if you burn it to DVD, it plays back out-of-sync on a standalone DVD player (which is certainly not affected by windows multimedia codecs.) So -- here's my theory. I'm going to assert something that I believe to be true. Please shoot holes in the theory as necessary.

Given:
Computer A: Rich A's video editing PC. Has a limited set of codecs. Has Womble installed.
Computer B: Someone else's editing PC. Has different codecs (may have additional codecs, may also be missing some of the codecs on Computer A.) Has the same version of Womble installed as Computer A.

Assertion: If you used the exact same Womble editing gestures on the exact same ReplayTV sourced MPEG file, Computer A would produce a different MPEG file than Computer B. [This assertion is basically what Rich has been saying all along.]

Given the results that Rich has had with MPEG files mailed to him by various users with "faulty MPEGs", I believe the above assertion to be correct. If it is correct, then it follows that:

Theory 1: Womble is using the codecs on the machine for *some* portion of the editing / saving process (which could include silent demuxing or muxing as part of that process.)

Theory 2: When Womble uses a given codec as part of its editing / saving process, the resulting mpeg exhibits some characteristics that cause that particular codec to be chosen by other windows applications to render the mpeg. (Which we then observe by the change in codecs displayed by gspot.)

If theory 1 is true, then Womble could be enhanced to add the same features that gspot is exposing -- or better yet, could allow you to specify your own priority scheme for codecs that would be observed only by Womble. With this feature, you'd still be able to garbage up your PC with lots of codecs, because Womble would use the one(s) you specified, and you'd specify the one(s) that work properly.

This still has me wondering why Womble would choose/allow itself to use other codecs, since it seems to function properly by itself... Maybe it's using some Windows multimedia APIs that it doesn't control (at least until it implements the aforementioned enhancement?)

What do you guys think?

--Joe
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post #114 of 396 Old 06-02-2003, 09:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rich A
I can't wait for the "GSpot" people to come out with the "add/remove" codec option set. Heck I'd pay for a utility like that. heh heh.
Rich and Jeff, is the Registered Filter Manager in Zoom Player what you are looking for? I just used this today to get rid of the Sony codec in my laptop and reinstalled Ligos. I was only getting a black screen prior to this. Also the system configuration by Inmatrix might help some people.

http://www.inmatrix.com/files/zoomplayer_download.shtml

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post #115 of 396 Old 06-02-2003, 09:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by jptsetme
If theory 1 is true, then Womble could be enhanced to add the same features that gspot is exposing -- or better yet, could allow you to specify your own priority scheme for codecs that would be observed only by Womble. With this feature, you'd still be able to garbage up your PC with lots of codecs, because Womble would use the one(s) you specified, and you'd specify the one(s) that work properly.
Zoom Player also has the option of setting priorities to codecs. Unfortunately I don't have Womble to test it.

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post #116 of 396 Old 06-02-2003, 09:29 AM
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I am wondering if this thread shouldn't be split into separate threads based on editing software and authoring software. A good start would be Womble users and non-Womble users. Just a humble opinion.

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post #117 of 396 Old 06-02-2003, 01:24 PM - Thread Starter
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dvasco, couple of things.... yes zoomplayer was an option for getting rid of codecs (I believe I stated this on page 1 or 2)

Next, yes... this was not ment to be a thread discussing editing techniques, but as always threads head in many directions. =)

All I wanted to do was to start a listing of what render paths people were seeing on the PCs that were having problems. I wanted to be able to construct a list of good and bad codecs.


As jim mentioned above... and I can't believe he did it... but installing new software on a working configuration can be the death of you. =(

I most cases the codecs that are installed with new software aren't always needed. DVDComplete might have worked just fine without installing the codecs, but because there may be a need to install the codec the installer does so.

Until gSpot does the removal of filters zoom player's $29 price tag is the only option. Too bad for me zoom player 3.x won't play mpeg files on my PC, so I've been sticking with 2.9 which doesn't have the filter removal.
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post #118 of 396 Old 06-02-2003, 06:24 PM
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Jeff, Zoom Player Standard is free. I don't use Zoom to play my MPEGs, only Divx; I useWindows Media Player for MPEG. I sometimes use WinDVD. WinDVD will play any of my Replay MPEGs without audio sync issues even when encountered in Media Player. I feel as though the audio sync is not an issue with a bad codec but with codecs clashing. I am curious to know if Zoom causes problems after installing it in a system that doesn't have problems. It doesn't seem to have caused me problems. BTW, I have multiple programs installed. ATI MMC 7.0, WinDVD, Ulead Video Studio 6, Ulead DVD MF2, Divx;, Xvid, Zoom, and Easy Video Joiner & Splitter.

Video Path: (S) --> Ligos MPEG Splitter --> Ligos MPEG Video Decoder --> (R)
Audio Path: (S) --> Ligos MPEG Splitter --> Ligos MPEG Audio Decoder --> (R)

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post #119 of 396 Old 06-02-2003, 06:35 PM
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Well Joe, I'm pretty sure (as I stated earlier here) that Womble doesn't use any codecs. I know I've installed it to a "dumb" system. A bare bones that didn't even have Windows Media player and listed no video codecs. And Womble worked fine.

That's not to say it's not using some call to a Windows API or such. There I would agree.

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post #120 of 396 Old 06-03-2003, 12:14 AM - Thread Starter
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dvasco, yes I know all about zoom player, I've been using it for quite some time. Just don't like to be limited to the "free" features.

One question about your render path.... you are or aren't having problems? Ligos has been a suspect of the AV sync problem. Thanks for the info.

And yes conflicts between codecs (or filters) is exactly what we are looking for. Still a big question is if there is audio time stamp data in the replayTV mpeg, I believe that data is in the idx file and not the mpeg, but I can't remember off the top of my head. IF an audio render path uses a decoder that handles time stamp info incorrectly there is sure cause for problems. But, that's just an idea I'm trying to find time to investigate.
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