Replay MPEG Sync problem, this tool may help us... - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 396 Old 07-03-2003, 10:57 AM
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jbarr, sorry if this is beating a dead (dying) horse but if you don't do the 30-min. chunks, just take the mpg straight into DVDMF2, do you get synch problems by the end of a 2h movie?

IOW, is the breaking into 30 min. chunks basically limiting the drift into the territory where it's so small we don't notice it?

I've been doing the Womble shuffle you describe for some time and while it works, sometimes (who knows why only "sometimes") it works better than other times.

Anyone w/ inside connections to RTV developers ever get a comment on this issue, even off the record?

RF
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post #182 of 396 Old 07-03-2003, 11:27 AM
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The reason the cutting into chunks works is because the error (or sync offset) is being caused during the recording (muxing) of the file. Once loaded into Womble and saved in whole, the cumulative error becomes so that by 60 minutes or so it becomes noticeable. NOTE !! This error is not being generated BY the ReplayTV. Nor is it being generate BY Womble. It's a byproduct of the muxing (or recording) of an improperly formated stream when certain timing issues in the PC are at hand. Depending on those timing issues, an editor may or may not induce this sync problem. Fix the real "cause" (definitely in the PC environment but unknown) and EVERY editor will work every time.

As for the cutting up into chunks. Let's say you can only notice the sync when the offset becomes 8. (subjective number just for explanation)

So .. going from say 1 to 120 minutes with a steadily increasing off-set of x amount means that at 30 minutes it's 4, at 60 minutes it's 8 and at 90 minutes it's 12. You start to notice it at 60 minutes.

But take that same 120 minutes and cut and save the first 30 and the maximum offset for that segment is 4, and the maximum offset for the other two segments is also 4 for each one. Once the mpeg has been recorded into three separate mpegs each never has an offset more than 4 total. And that's close enough to not be able to see it. OR simply put this offset problem STARTS at the beginning of any clip and continues progressively until the clip ends. End the clip at 30 minutes the progression stops at 30 minutes. Ergo three 30 minute clips each never progress as far as a 90 minute clip.

Now that those three were saved and recorded they are locked in with that offset. So adding them together results in the final 120 minutes never exceeding an offset of 4 anywhere. And sync looks great.

I understand what's happening, but don't know if my example makes sense .. does to me of course ... heh heh

ReplayTV 2000, 3000, 4080 (no sync problems on any)

Rich
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post #183 of 396 Old 07-03-2003, 12:18 PM
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Yes, I have had out-of-sync problems when just saving the entire file or, for that matter, cutting out the leading and trailing stuff from a 2 hour movie. So, I guess my system really isn't "perfect" but the chunk method does work for me and it is quick and reliable.

That said, I believe that this DOES illustrate what Rich speculated and what I have been suspecting all along: that the the 30 minute chunks ARE out of sync, just not enough to be noticable. The resulting "combined" video simply gets "corrected" every 30 minutes so we never really notice any out-of-sync. It would be interesting to use "1 hour chunks" instead of "30 minute chunks" and see if the resulting "full" video exhibits out-of-sync problems at the 1-hour and two-hour points. I suspect that they would. I'll test this this weekend.

Fortunatly, the "30 minute chunk" workaround yields excellent results, but I also realize that we all would like a "one-size-fits-all", "one-step" solution that "just works". Sooner or later, I know we'll achieve that.

-Jim

Visit SageTVTips.com for SageTV tips! MoxiTips.com for Moxi tips! Visit JimsTips.com for my "ReplayTV to DVD HOWTO" guide!
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post #184 of 396 Old 07-03-2003, 01:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by jbarr
Yes, I have had out-of-sync problems when just saving the entire file or, for that matter, cutting out the leading and trailing stuff from a 2 hour movie. So, I guess my system really isn't "perfect" but the chunk method does work for me and it is quick and reliable.

That said, I believe that this DOES illustrate what Rich speculated and what I have been suspecting all along: that the the 30 minute chunks ARE out of sync, just not enough to be noticable. The resulting "combined" video simply gets "corrected" every 30 minutes so we never really notice any out-of-sync. It would be interesting to use "1 hour chunks" instead of "30 minute chunks" and see if the resulting "full" video exhibits out-of-sync problems at the 1-hour and two-hour points. I suspect that they would. I'll test this this weekend.

Fortunatly, the "30 minute chunk" workaround yields excellent results, but I also realize that we all would like a "one-size-fits-all", "one-step" solution that "just works". Sooner or later, I know we'll achieve that.
Say Jim,

Last year some time I started working on a program that did nothing but generate a large digital clock on the PC screen with a read out down to mili-seconds. Then I had a loud "snap" every 15 seconds. The idea was to input this to the ReplayTV (or any other mpeg encoder) for a couple hours. Then you'd have something with a sound every 15 seconds or so through out the entire clip, along with the corresponding time display. Any out of sync would then be able to be visually seen. And I suppose you could slow this down and get a very accurate amount of offset based on the displayed time and the actual sound. Sadly it was something I put aside when I ran into trouble trying to find a why to get a graphical representation of the sound. I had the display flash at exactly every 15 seconds so as the sound got out of whack you would notice it. But to be really useful a better programmer than I would have to make it display a running graph with the time code on the top and the beginning of the sound as a spike included. Technically you would be viewing a running segment of say 30 minutes from left to right on the screen and all the sound pops should be directly under the 15 second marks. I hope I'm explaining this correctly. It "might" be a way to actually see the gradual increase of the sound sync problem.

Alas .. too many cool ideas fostered by an overly warm brain. :D

Rich
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post #185 of 396 Old 07-03-2003, 04:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rich A
A new version of Womble is up on the web site. Don't know what was fixed or changed but it was released June 30, 2003.
Rich, I purch'ed the full MPG2 Womble but I'll ba damned if I can figure out how to get update. Looked on the website, all I saw was opportunities to purchase it. I know my purchase is good for a year of updates ........... what's the trick?
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post #186 of 396 Old 07-03-2003, 06:47 PM
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I think you guys are starting to see the light. If everybody agrees the audio drift is being reset when clips are joined, why not automatically reset the drift every x minutes when saving a clip? Womble could add this as an option for replaytv users. Then you can enjoy "in synch" editing with any computer, even if Jeff D keeps trying to find your Gspot :-)
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post #187 of 396 Old 07-03-2003, 07:27 PM - Thread Starter
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PVRick, you can just go to the download link and download it there. It's the same software that the demo is just use your registration number.
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post #188 of 396 Old 07-03-2003, 10:16 PM
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Ah. tnx
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post #189 of 396 Old 07-04-2003, 11:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by HarryTheHat
I think you guys are starting to see the light. If everybody agrees the audio drift is being reset when clips are joined, why not automatically reset the drift every x minutes when saving a clip? Womble could add this as an option for replaytv users. Then you can enjoy "in synch" editing with any computer, even if Jeff D keeps trying to find your Gspot :-)
No that's not correct. The audio drift doesn't change and wasn't "reset". Because it's "cumulative", the shorter the time, the less the accumulation.

You could get the same result by taking 20 1/2 hour ReplayTV shows and joining them all together. It would be almost perfectly in sync from the first hour to the last when joined.

I know what is happening. Don't know the exact cause. But doubt it's anything that Womble can fix.

I just can't explain it. But to prove my point .. try taking a bunch of 1/2 hour shows off your replaytv (enough to exceed a couple hours) and then simply join them with Womble. I bet you don't have any sync issues large enough to notice.

Rich
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post #190 of 396 Old 07-04-2003, 01:56 PM
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I just installed a clean install of WinXpPro. I installed only the Microsoft software and DivxPro. Here are the files I installed:

1 MPSetupXP.exe - Windows Media Player 9
2 WM9Codecs.exe - Windows Media Player 9 Series Codecs
3 WMEncoder.exe - Windows Media Encoder 9
4 wmv9VCMsetup.exe - Windows Media Video 9 VCM Codec
5 MP3 Creation Pack for XP.msi - MP3 Codec
6 DVDPack.msi - DVD Decoder Pak for Windows XP - Cyberlink PowerDVD based
7 DivXPro505Bundle.exe - DivxPro 5.05 Retail Version

(S) --> MPEG-2 Splitter --> CyberLink Video/SP Decoder --> (R)
(S) --> MPEG-2 Splitter --> CyberLink Audio Decoder --> (R)


So far so good. Every show I extracted yesterday have a good video and audio frame rate. Both are at 29.970. I use VirtualDub 1.5.1 (build 15817). This build will open mpg’s. Other versions will not. I use Womble 3.14 to cut the commercials and VirtualDub to compress the show using DivxPro. Audio is compressed at 128kBit/s, MPEG Layer 3.

I don’t know. By getting rid of all the other codecs and only installing these seem to have gotten rid of my frame rate problems. Maybe this can help someone else.

One quick question - I have noticed that if I extract a movie to my pc sometimes the audio and video frame rates are off. I’m sure this is probably a problem that has been beat to death on this site. I’m using VirualDub 1.5.1 (build 15817) to view the frame rates. But…it seems that if I never watch a recorded show, only extract it, the frame rates are ok. If I watch it, even just partially, the frame rates are thrown off. As you watch a pre-recorded show, does the system add some type of marker that allows it to return to where you left off? And is it this “marker†that throws off the frame rates? I do use Womble to cut the commercials, but on some shows which have the frame rate too far off, it doesn’t help. Normally I use Womble to cut the commercials and VirualDub to recompress the file down to a livable size. This seems to work well.

Thanks for the help!
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post #191 of 396 Old 07-04-2003, 03:58 PM
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Rich A, took a 2 hr med quality file from a 5040 and did the convert stream to program stream in Womble newest version (6/30 I believe). Then I took it into the GOP fixer and scanned it. As you noticed, this process removed all the PTS errors. No errors were found. I then played the file using Power DVD and by the end of the 2 hours the sync was off by maybe a quarter to half a second.

(S) --> Ligos MPEG Splitter --> Ligos MPEG Video Decoder --> (R)
(S) --> Ligos MPEG Splitter --> Ligos MPEG Audio Decoder --> (R)

After I reboot into the XP editing partition I'll let you know if anything's different/better.

<edit #1>

Deinstalling and reinstalling PowerDVD did not change the render path shown above. Rebooted into XP Pro Video Editing partition (i.e. nothing but the essentials) and it shows
(S) --> MPEG-2 Splitter --> CyberLink Video/SP Decoder --> (R)
(S) --> MPEG-2 Splitter --> CyberLink Audio Decoder --> (R)

Playing the same file with Womble (no PowerDVD installed here) it shows the same sync problem near the end of the file. As that file is not what I want I deleted it. Now I am in the process of reprocessing the stream transformation using Womble in this partition. Same source file.
OK, it's done. The video leads the audio by much less at the end of the 2 hours, but it is still quite noticeable. I'm ready to take you up on your offer to process this ... put the original on DVD+RW, enclose a blank, you wanna try it?:(
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post #192 of 396 Old 07-04-2003, 05:57 PM
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Sure if you want to send me the disc. Can you use a +R instead of an RW? I only have the -RW here. But I'm sure someone sent me a +R in the past and I could read it. Just not sure about the +RW. No need for any other discs. I'll burn it to a regular DVD-R and just about anything should read that.

Send me a PM here and I'll let you know where to mail it. At the moment I'm still downloading "Harry the Hat's" 2 hour movie via FTP. I dunno. Maybe the mail might be faster? :p

Well it's slow but seems reliable. I should be done in about 2 or 3 more hours.

Just remember to burn it as a data disc. Just copy the raw unmodified replaytv mpeg to the disc. I'm anxious to see it.

Rich
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post #193 of 396 Old 07-04-2003, 06:47 PM
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I am posting this question in public...

I have noticed you use the term "on my system" many times when speaking of burning RPTV to DVD..

My question is.. have you tested these discs on standalone / set-top DVD players?

The reason that I ask is...

One of the program streams that I have been working on getting to DVD-Video plays back just great on my computer... (the created DVD)

But on all three set-top DVD players that I have.. the audio goes out of sync durring playback.

The three players are:
: RCA DRC-700 ; Emerson DVD+VCR ; Cyberhome 501 :

Disc format is DVD+RW
RCA is one of the main supporters of DVD+RW format.

--David
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post #194 of 396 Old 07-04-2003, 08:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by DavidEC
I am posting this question in public...

I have noticed you use the term "on my system" many times when speaking of burning RPTV to DVD..

My question is.. have you tested these discs on standalone / set-top DVD players?

The reason that I ask is...

One of the program streams that I have been working on getting to DVD-Video plays back just great on my computer... (the created DVD)

But on all three set-top DVD players that I have.. the audio goes out of sync durring playback.

The three players are:
: RCA DRC-700 ; Emerson DVD+VCR ; Cyberhome 501 :

Disc format is DVD+RW
RCA is one of the main supporters of DVD+RW format.

--David

I only use DVD-R This was the original and in the beginning the most compatible. I specifically burn DVD-R just so I can enjoy them on my TV played back from a stand alone DVD Player. Full compatibility is important to me as I share these with my son (who has a Philips late model DVD player), my duaghter who has an older Philips 825, and of course my own Sampo 620.

I've never had a problem playing any of my DVDs in any stand alone that could read DVD-R. Or in any computer system that had a software DVD player and a DVD drive.

Rich
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post #195 of 396 Old 07-05-2003, 12:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by DavidEC
I am posting this question in public...

I have noticed you use the term "on my system" many times when speaking of burning RPTV to DVD..

My question is.. have you tested these discs on standalone / set-top DVD players?

The reason that I ask is...

One of the program streams that I have been working on getting to DVD-Video plays back just great on my computer... (the created DVD)

But on all three set-top DVD players that I have.. the audio goes out of sync durring playback.

The three players are:
: RCA DRC-700 ; Emerson DVD+VCR ; Cyberhome 501 :

Disc format is DVD+RW
RCA is one of the main supporters of DVD+RW format.

--David
Couple of things could be the cause... PC's are open systems where anything can happen, even in the dvd authoring. If the anything is "incorrect" during the mux phase of creating the vob files, there could be a problem playing back on a STB.

More likely it's the PTS problem, where the PC for whatever reason is able to deal with audio that is either incorrectly timestamped or not timestamped at all.

DVD STB are made to deal with multitrack muxed mpeg files, the audio tracks aren't always at the same point in on the disc as the video, near to, but not exactly a 1:1 match for Audio and Video packet. This is where the time stamps come in. STB are very exact in using the audio time stamps, if they weren't we'd all have out of sync DVDs that we bought at the store.

The PC get's it ok because of the way DirectShow renders (the render path) and how each component in the path deals with each of the parts. Demuxer splits PS to ESes, video render handles decoding the video ES rendering, audio render handles decoding of audio ES, then there's the last phase which mixes them back for you to see and hear.

So the two worlds are similar, but not exactly the same.

If it were me, I'd bet 3 STBs have it right and you PC has it wrong.

That's just what "could" be happening. If this is the case the problem is one of two things:
1) the source you are using to make the DVD from has some "error" which isn't apparent until you play on a STB.
2) the authoring package does something with the way the vob file is muxed that isn't quite right, but works ok on a PC.

Remember a slight error in the math may not seem like much, but it will grow and much like the in sync for 1.5 hrs problem you could be seeing something like it.
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post #196 of 396 Old 07-05-2003, 07:51 PM
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Okay guys I'm STILL waiting for someone to send me a "supposedly" out of sync mpeg. <grin>

I downloaded from "Harry the Hat's" FTP server a two hour mpeg that plays fine before editing with Womble and then has sync problems after editing with Womble. Uh with Harry's computer. (I have to make that distinction)

It was a long download about 3.5 GB (2hrs) of high Q recording.

I did my normal thing only using Womble. First ran it though the GOP fixer. It had the usual bunch of PTS errors. Then I edited the whole thing taking out commercials and pasting the wanted segments to the clip board. Added them all back together and recorded it. About 2 minutes later I had the whole movie edited, and SYNC WAS PERFECT.

So that makes thirteen broken mpegs sent to me and EVERY one was able to be edited using only Womble and not one had any lip sync problems. ON MY COMPUTER.

THERE IS a timing problem that is SYSTEM SPECIFIC. Some of you have it. I DON'T. You can blame Womble or the ReplayTV mpegs all you want. But the problem is in your computer. There's some balance that is out of whack. Now some guys say they have better results when they use other editors. But keep in mind there are just as many who have the OTHER editors and have the problem and fix it by switching to Womble. Perhaps installing a different editor may change the whole environment so that the timing is now proper. I just know this.

Every editor I've tried here works fine.
Every mpeg I've edited here works fine.

I DO have one important note .. I actually made copies of the master mpeg that I got from Harry. I tired many different ways to "break" it. And I found this. MOST of the time I see PTS errors galore in my own mpegs. But only in about 1 out of 100 do they affect the sync in my case. When they are (severe enough?) I notice it right away because Womble doesn't show the correct play time length. So when that happens, (about 1 in a hundred times) I DO run the GOP fixer. Otherwise I just ignore the PTS errors and edit it anyway with no problems.

Harry's mpeg (although showing the correct time length) must have had severe PTS errors. When I tried to edit the mpeg WITHOUT first passing it though the GOP fixer .. then IT WAS OUT OF SYNC. But a fast 90 second parse through GOP fixer resulted in a perfect edit every time.

I believe Harry also tried the GOP fixer. Of course this HAS to be done on the virgin raw mpeg before you do anything to it. I'm assuming Harry did that also.

So I can only surmise that the GOP fixer is NOT working for Harry. That should be a clue. As far as I understand it, what the GOP fixer does to fix PTS errors is that it looks for the actual length of the audio stream and then changes the PTS from the point of the first error to correspond with the actual play time of the audio.

So how many more "broken" mpegs do I have to edit (with resulting perfect audio sync) until you guys believe me when I tell you it's your systems and not Womble or anything else. (oh and I tried editing it on a Windows 2K machine, a WindowsXP machine and a 98SE machine. Three computers .. (One loaded with junk) and no problems.

I'm offering to send Harry a DVD-R of the edited mpeg and just waiting for him to get back to me. Then he can tell you what he sees.

Rich
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post #197 of 396 Old 07-05-2003, 08:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rich A
THERE IS a timing problem that is SYSTEM SPECIFIC. Some of you have it. I DON'T. You can blame Womble or the ReplayTV mpegs all you want. But the problem is in your computer. There's some balance that is out of whack.
Ok, two things come to my mind with the results of your tests.
1) What version of Womble is being used on your computer and what version on Harry the Hat's? Are they the same exact version?

2) What software are you using to play the resulting MPEGs? What is Harry the Hat using?

I have a really hard time believing that your computer is somehow magical and always perfect, and others' computers aren't. It would not surprise me that if you used your exact software tools on Harry the Hat's computer, everything would be in sync there, too. I.e., I suspect that either differences in the software used and/or user error (or just differing methods of use) is causing these problems.

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post #198 of 396 Old 07-05-2003, 08:50 PM - Thread Starter
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j.m. don't forget things hardware issues like sound cards, interrupts and other system conflicts that can be causing problems. =)
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post #199 of 396 Old 07-05-2003, 08:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by j.m.
Ok, two things come to my mind with the results of your tests.
1) What version of Womble is being used on your computer and what version on Harry the Hat's? Are they the same exact version?

2) What software are you using to play the resulting MPEGs? What is Harry the Hat using?

I have a really hard time believing that your computer is somehow magical and always perfect, and others' computers aren't. It would not surprise me that if you used your exact software tools on Harry the Hat's computer, everything would be in sync there, too. I.e., I suspect that either differences in the software used and/or user error (or just differing methods of use) is causing these problems.
No offense but I've been around the block with this audio sync problem for well over a year now with this ReplayTV group of guys. We've already assertained that we are using the same software and even operating system and file system. Been all through that. I would even bet the farm that if I took my copy of Womble and drove to Harry's house and installed it, the problem would still exist. In FACT I would venture that ANY other guy out there without the problem could edit Harry's mpeg successfully just like me.

You have a hard time believing it because you aren't considering the fact that there ARE many many people out there like myself who DON'T have trouble with sync issues. You don't hear from them because they are happy and really have no need to seek help. (If it ain't broken don't fix it) I am NOT alone here. Just like me there are many others who don't have this sync problem. I'm probably one of the few who are taking the time to try to help the guys WITH the problem find an answer. I'm trying to help by telling them it IS possible to make it work, and where they are looking for answers can't be correct.

I believe we are using he same Womble version.

I play the resulting mpegs with Windows Media Player, Womble, PowerDVD, ATI DVD player, Philips 825 stand alone DVD Player, Sampo DVD player (after burning to DVD). There is nothing magical about my computer. I DID say I edited the mpeg on three DIFFERENT computers I have here. And I have brought the edited mpeg saved simply as data DVDs to the shop and guys have played them on numberous computers.

AND, out of the 12 other "broken" mpegs that couldn't be edited by their owners I even sent some edited versions back to them.

Recorded by them. Edited by them. Played by them on their equip. NG
Recorded by them Edited by me Sent back to them .. Played on THEIR equipment .. no problems.

I guess you havn't read about the several guys who SOLVED their problems simply by reinstalling windows. Which is (IMHO) correcting some as of yet unknown internal conflict.

I am NOT saying my computer is special. Or than any computer I have is special. They JUST don't happen to have what-ever conflict in the environment that others have. Don't you think it strange that I've received 13 mpegs from guys who all say they can't edit them and yet I have no problem?

BTW, I'm now using Harry's mpeg as a "test bed" and going through every option that Womble offers (ie special effects) one by one in case there might be one special effect (a merge, fade or wipe) that might have a problem. I'll admit I seldom use those features but when I need to I most always use the "merge" effect. Usually when there's no black fade out / in available in the original. I'll report if I find anything there.

Rich
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post #200 of 396 Old 07-05-2003, 09:01 PM
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Originally posted by Jeff D
j.m. don't forget things hardware issues like sound cards, interrupts and other system conflicts that can be causing problems. =)
I realize this is possible, but I still don't think that is what is going on here--especially considering that Rich A doesn't have problems on any of his PCs, which are running different OSes and (presumably) different hardware. If it is a hardware problem, I would think the chances of all his computers having non-problematic hardware would be pretty low. Or, maybe not--who knows? My point is, at the very least, testing needs to be done with the same software (and maybe it was, that's what I'm asking) and preferably by the same person to prevent discrepancies between methodology used (I guess I would wager that Rich A probably has quite a bit more experience editing video than most of the people sending him files).

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post #201 of 396 Old 07-05-2003, 09:12 PM
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Originally posted by Rich A
You have a hard time believing it because you aren't considering the fact that there ARE many many people out there like myself who DON'T have trouble with sync issues. You don't hear from them because they are happy and really have no need to seek help. (If it ain't broken don't fix it) I am NOT alone here. Just like me there are many others who don't have this sync problem. I'm probably one of the few who are taking the time to try to help the guys WITH the problem find an answer. I'm trying to help by telling them it IS possible and where they are looking for answers can't be correct. Or else EVERYONE would be having this problem.
I'm just trying to help figure this out, too. I guess I wasn't clear enough. What I have a hard time believing is that there is a magic hardware configuration that your PCs have that causes everything to work for you (not that you have implied that you do). I believe it is something in the software and/or some difference in the way others are editing in Womble.

FWIW, in the few ReplayTV MPEGs I have edited, I have not had sync issues either. I don't generally use any transitions, however. I have read that doing so can cause sync errors.

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post #202 of 396 Old 07-05-2003, 09:18 PM
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My opinion - it's a conflict in the different codecs. I hate to do it, [but since my video/audio frame rate issues seem to be gone,] I'm going to start installing one program/codec after another until they return. Let's hope System Restore really works under WinXp! If not, it sure will take a lot longer!

Just for fun, today I recorded a 5:04 hour show (13.2 gb, see attached jpg) in High mode. Extracted it to the PC, opened it in VirtualDub 1.5.1 (build 15817) and the frame rates are ok! I don't think it's a length of the recording issue, I'm thinking it's a codec conflict or mismatch. Just which ones, who knows.

I've read this entire post and someone else suggested that earlier. I think he's right.

That's my two cents!

See attached jpg (if the jpg doesn't make it, let me know and I'll email it. It only shows the lenght and frame rates of the mpg)
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post #203 of 396 Old 07-05-2003, 09:24 PM
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Originally posted by Rich A
No offense but I've been around the block with this audio sync problem for well over a year now with this ReplayTV group of guys. We've already assertained that we are using the same software and even operating system and file system. Been all through that. I would even bet the farm that if I took my copy of Womble and drove to Harry's house and installed it, the problem would still exist. In FACT I would venture that ANY other guy out there without the problem could edit Harry's mpeg successfully just like me.
None taken. I know you have, as I've followed many of these threads. I guess my suggestion is merely that in solving this problem (which as you state has been very difficult to do so far) it would be nice to absolutely be able to rule out certain causes (like differing software and user error), not just believe to have done so. Computers can be deceiving sometimes. Software that proclaims to be the same versions may actually not be bit for bit identical etc. I think that this problem has proved tricky enough to solve that some true scientific method stuff needs to be done (not that I'm an expert in that, for sure). Granted, this is difficult to do when you are talking about people and PCs spread all over the country, but it may be the only way to figure this one out.

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post #204 of 396 Old 07-05-2003, 09:28 PM
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Originally posted by Rich A
I did my normal thing only using Womble. First ran it though the GOP fixer. It had the usual bunch of PTS errors. Then I edited the whole thing taking out commercials and pasting the wanted segments to the clip board. Added them all back together and recorded it. About 2 minutes later I had the whole movie edited, and SYNC WAS PERFECT.
Just a quick question - Why paste what you want to the clipboard in Womble? I mark the beginning and end of each commercial and cut it. Then move to the next one...

Just wondering if there's a better way.
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post #205 of 396 Old 07-05-2003, 09:34 PM
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Originally posted by tjernagel
My opinion - it's a conflict in the different codecs. I hate to do it, [but since my video/audio frame rate issues seem to be gone,] I'm going to start installing one program/codec after another until they return. Let's hope System Restore really works under WinXp! :) If not, it sure will take a lot longer!
For Rich A (or anyone else), does Womble care about what codecs are installed or use them in any way? I thought it used its own internal MPEG routines and should, therefore, be unaffected by codecs in the editing (I would think).

As far as playback goes, codecs could definitely be in play. That is why I suggest trying playback with VideoLAN. Since it uses its own MPEG decoders, it should be unaffected by the Windows codec mess (again, I would think so anyway).

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post #206 of 396 Old 07-05-2003, 09:43 PM
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This is a second recording made today. Its 4:54 hours long. Again, everything is aok! Sorry about the cut jpgs, but its the best I could do and still up load it. I would have loved to have done a full screen, but you couldnt read the writing! I wanted you to see the video/audio frame rates and the length of the mpg.

Sounds like this is a question for the Womble authors!

Here's another screen shot.
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post #207 of 396 Old 07-05-2003, 10:02 PM
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Originally posted by j.m.
I'm just trying to help figure this out, too. I guess I wasn't clear enough. What I have a hard time believing is that there is a magic hardware configuration that your PCs have that causes everything to work for you (not that you have implied that you do). I believe it is something in the software and/or some difference in the way others are editing in Womble.

FWIW, in the few ReplayTV MPEGs I have edited, I have not had sync issues either. I don't generally use any transitions, however. I have read that doing so can cause sync errors.
Hmmm, so you don't have the problem either? What's most interesting is when you said, " I don't generally use any transitions, however. I have read that doing so can cause sync errors"

There may be something to that as well. (I've edited my first reply a couple times to clearify a couple points while you were posting your last)

Now the special effects thing might be VERY much a part of it. As I said, I don't use them a lot. But I do .. just not often. Let's see, I do remember having a sync problem caused by a transition several times. (I'm talking about over 1,000 mpegs in the last few years so it's a little Grey) As I recall the FX only caused a sync problem at one specific point in the mpeg. I could add FX effects before and after that segment, but when I tried to use one in one specific segment .. it would effect the sync from there to the end. I found the problem was usually a bad frame or two that happened to be involved. Not sure if it was after, during or before the FX insertion. But I found it by examining frame by frame for several minutes in the area of the FX on the raw unedited file. The "glitched" frame had several "blocks" and/or motion artifacts. I remember only cutting out those bad frames (which by the way only being one or two frames were not viewable during regular playback) and then adding the FX again. This time there were no sync problems.

Hmmm, j.m. you know you may have something there. A lot of the things I do during the normal course of editing and producing a DVD are sort of second nature to me .. and I do suppose that there may be things I do that others don't. I did not come to mpeg and editing and DVD production because OF the ReplayTV. I've been doing this stuff long before the first ReplayTV was born. So maybe I need to sit down and go though some kind of list of do's and don'ts.

But that wouldn't explain the guys who had a sync problem and solved it by wiping the system and re-installing their op systems. That single example has to mean something in the hardware/software/driver environment got changed, over-written or somehow during the PC's life something got added that upset the apple cart. And dumping that apple cart and re-filling it, solved the problem.

For example .. some of the things I just don't let anywhere NEAR my dedicates NLE computer.

RealPlayer
Macromedia Flash
Virus programs
Any running TSRs
JAVA
(and probably a dozen other more common things I simply don't need for any of my Mpeg and AVI multimedia work)

I do a lot of testing. When I do and decide I don't want to keep the item being tested, I restore an image made before the test. So there's never a bunch of crumbs left over from other software installs that generally do NOT remove all instances of themselves. I've found many times, shared DLLs being over-written causing other programs problems and also that the newly over-written DLL isn't erased during the uninstall. (just an example) I've tried those custom install programs that log every change but found with a fast drive and system, it's quicker and surer going the image route. I clean my registry every month. I delete obsolete files on a regular basis. I defrag my drives often. I update my main board BIOS whenever a new one has been out for a few weeks. (and before I do, I check the forums for any reported problems. When I buy a main board I always browse the forums first and make an educated purchase accordingly. (Abit had a mobo I wanted and I knew revision A had problems that were fixed with revision B. When I bought it, I made the vendor open the box so I could check the revision. (the guy had one revision A and 3 revision B's) Geeshh, there's really a lot of things I do as normal modus operandi.

Maybe all these things simply mean my systems are generally clean and free of conflicting hardware and software. Everyone knows the first PCI slot shares an interrupt with the AGP slot right? Or that on board sound, video, Lan and such also share certain PCI slots. And putting a sound card in the wrong slot can cause certain programs to have timing and sync issues. Heck I had one guy who brought his PC into the shop who had a problem with a PCI card and all we did was to move it from the PCI slot it was in because his on-board RAID controller was sharing that IRQ. And this particular card did not work well sharing IRQs.

I've seen audio sync problems caused by certain combinations of VIA chipset main boards coupled with a SoundBlaster Live card and an ATI All In Wonder capture card. And situations where Adaptec's ASPI layer changes made during an install of earlier versions of EZ CD Creator burning software created odd problems with mpegs.

And of course the one I've never been able to explain where an mpeg played fine, then was simply copied to another PC across a LAN only to have it not play fine. Then copied back to the original pc to have it play okay again. Simply moving it around caused it to play out of sync then not out of sync. Yet this was only ONE out of hundreds that would do it. That happened to me a few years ago, and I'm still baffled by it.

Well, I digress and obsess as usual. I apologize. I've just been at this a very long time. And this audio sync problem is NOTHING NEW. Anyone who has been doing this thing outside of the ReplayTV arena knows this.

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post #208 of 396 Old 07-05-2003, 10:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by tjernagel
Just a quick question - Why paste what you want to the clipboard in Womble? I mark the beginning and end of each commercial and cut it. Then move to the next one...

Just wondering if there's a better way.
When you come to the point where you start to do some "real" editing you'll see the worth of "copying" the wanted segment to the clip board to be later assembled. This is just the normal and old fashioned way to do it. It has it's advanctages. One is that it is less prone to cause problems. Those of us who have been using Womble for years know that cutting out segments and letting womble automatically re-join them can sometimes cause problems.

A couple quick examples on why to do the copy to clipboard.

A TV series has a few minutes of run time. Then a couple minutes of some kind of "introduction". Then it resumes the movie. I like to save each wanted segment and the re-assemble them in a different order. Just the "intro" of course. When I put it back together I put the intro first followed the the unbroken flow of the movie. Or sometimes I join clips 1, 3, 4, 5 and 6 first (the movie) and clip #2 by itself and create a selection for it in my DVD menu.

But where you'll really appreciate that technique is when you start editing your own material, like from your camcorder. It would be more normal to first pull out all the clips. Then re-assemble them. Sometimes you might want to change the position of a clip in the playback. Change the order. That's why there is a clipboard there. A place to store those clips you wish to use. I often load two movies into Womble and edit them both to pull out wanted scenes for some special project I'm doing. Of coure I'm carefull to rename the clips stored in the clip board so I know which movie they are from. And of course you can always drag a clip to the workspace and scrub quickly through it to make sure it's one you want to use.

Also, it's a little easier (and works a little better) to insert FX between two clips dragged from the clip list than in the spot where you cut the unwanted segment.

Not to mention that I myself have made the "cut" at the wrong place. And not noticed until the thing was completely edited. By saving segments to the clipboard, AND (by the way saving the project) you always have the wanted segments to work with, even if you have to start over.

Anyway, that's why we "copy" the wanted segments to the clip board instead of "cutting" the unwanted segments from the entire movie. Just a point. Notice I say "copy" and not cut. Yes it's nitpicking but to someone who is an old hand at this stuff, they mean very different things. You "copy" to the clip board. You "cut" and discard from the movie.

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post #209 of 396 Old 07-06-2003, 12:00 AM
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I'm still trying to get Harry's mpeg to play out of sync.

I just thought of something I take for granted but may not be well known. (thanks to JM for pointing me in that direction by the way)

I hope you DO realize that when editing and adding effects and such and ESPECIALLY if you are cutting out commercials leaving wanted segments to be automatically joined, that your playback while in the editing mode CAN be out of sync. If you only have one FX effect it'll probably play okay. But if you have more than one, scrubbing to any point past the FX effects will almost always show out of sync audio. It's NORMAL (I think) heh heh.

After you've recorded the entire mpeg and saved it .. it "should" play back in sync just fine. The playback mode during edit (I think) is not working with the final product. When you do the record, those FX (and simple joined) areas are actually re-compiled. It's at THAT point where the audio and video are encoded and re-muxed and they (hopefully) will be in sync.

So for those of you just starting, if you see out sync examples while playing back within Womble the file you've just edited BEFORE saving it, you may NOT have a problem. Record and save it and THEN check it for sync. Just a point I should have made long ago but have sort of taken for granted.

BTW, if you've been following this, I've discovered Harry's unedited raw mpeg has a segment of 84 frames that have no audio. At about 26 minutes, 14 seconds into the movie. Don't know if that is causing a problem. Doesn't affect it here. But was strange. It lasts for about 2 and a half seconds. Definately something went weird during the ReplayTV encoding.

Rich
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post #210 of 396 Old 07-06-2003, 12:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by j.m.
(I guess I would wager that Rich A probably has quite a bit more experience editing video than most of the people sending him files).
You think?!?!? =)

I think I can't agree with that more.

On the hardware stuff mentioned earlier, the same applies... it may just be that Rich, you and I all have our systems set up correctly. I know this takes years to get an understand of all the aspects of the windows OSes. And I'm sure anyone who knows won't tell you they understand everything. It's just too complicated.
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