Wireless 802.11g Streaming for Cheap! - Page 7 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
post #181 of 703 Old 11-09-2003, 06:37 PM
Senior Member
 
Jeffwa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Columbus, OH
Posts: 366
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
My two Buffaloes came from Dell w/o problems as well. I don't think it's lucky. I think you just happen to be having a bad run of luck.

-- Jeffwa

Hooray for me, Billy! HOORAY FOR ME!
Jeffwa is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #182 of 703 Old 11-10-2003, 03:40 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
jwtseng's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 704
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
So was it just the boxes that were crushed or were the actual units somehow damaged? For one thing, I don't remember any of my four boxes had seals on them. And all four of the boxes that I received (outside physical packaging) came pristine enclosed in a larger outer cardboard box from Dell. Sorry to hear that you had issues. Did you notice that Dell's customer support forwards the call to somewhere in India???
jwtseng is offline  
post #183 of 703 Old 11-10-2003, 04:35 PM
Member
 
sooner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 19
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Another FWIW....

My 3 Buffalo's from Dell arrived last week without any problems. Seals were intact, but there was not much packing material around them...mostly just some brown paper.

Should finish setting them up tonight or tomorrow!

Man, they really should have someone proof read the web setup instructions, help areas, etc. Looks really unprofessional. English is definitely a 2nd (or 3rd) language for the writer(s).
sooner is offline  
post #184 of 703 Old 11-14-2003, 05:17 PM
AVS Special Member
 
j.m.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 2,335
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally posted by j.m.
FWIW, I came across a new version of the firmware for the WBR-G54's, version 2.01 dated 10-30-2003. It is located on Buffalo's UK site at http://www.buffalo-technology.com/download/firmware.htm

I flashed one of my WBR-G54's, the one running as a bridge, and it went smoothly. The only change listed in the release notes is "The number of MAC address restriction was changed from up to 64 into up to 128." However, there appear to be some other changes, namely that wireless power is now configurable by percent of full power rather than by mW. I'm not sure whether full is considered to be 32mW (max setting in 1.31) or 22mW (max in 1.30). If anyone has any ability to measure the signal strength in 2.01, let us know.

Other than that, I can't see any visible differences. I haven't tried it on my WBR-G54 acting as a router, so I don't know if loopback support has been added.

BTW, if anyone is running Linux with access to the "cramfs" utility, it would be interesting to what exactly is in the firmware for the WBR-G54. The guts of the firmware file is a Compressed ROM image that can be mounted in Linux. I would love to see a .zip file containing the contents of that image.
If anyone cares, this 2.01 firmware is now officially available on the USA site as well at http://www.buffalotech.com/wireless/...detail=fg54ap3 . The file is binary identical to the one at the UK site. BTW, I did flash my router and can confirm that loopback is still not supported.

j.m.'s ReplayTV Tools
Home of WinDVA, the Win32 DVArchive launcher
j.m. is offline  
post #185 of 703 Old 11-14-2003, 09:21 PM
Member
 
phlegmer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 92
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
So does the interface or anything appear different with this new firmware?
phlegmer is offline  
post #186 of 703 Old 11-14-2003, 09:45 PM
AVS Special Member
 
j.m.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 2,335
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Other than what I mentioned (power in percent rather than mW), everything seems the same. Even the text stating there is a limit of 64 MAC addresses in wireless limitation is the same, despite the fact that the release notes on the UK site say the actual limit was increased to 128.

j.m.'s ReplayTV Tools
Home of WinDVA, the Win32 DVArchive launcher
j.m. is offline  
post #187 of 703 Old 11-23-2003, 02:06 PM
Member
 
phlegmer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 92
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
It would appear that Dell has adjusted their prices for these boxes. They now have them listed for $99.95! Of course, now that I was wanting to get another one :(
phlegmer is offline  
post #188 of 703 Old 12-01-2003, 09:18 PM
AVS Special Member
 
j.m.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 2,335
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Version 2.02 firmware is available at the UK Buffalo site:
http://www.buffalo-technology.com/download/firmware.htm

I flashed but don't immediately notice any difference from 2.01.

j.m.'s ReplayTV Tools
Home of WinDVA, the Win32 DVArchive launcher
j.m. is offline  
post #189 of 703 Old 12-04-2003, 04:28 PM
AVS Special Member
 
j.m.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 2,335
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
OK, the UK site finally posted release notes for 2.02 for those interested:

Ver2.01 -> Ver2.02

Firmware supports Stateful Packet inspection.

Routing throughput is improved from 40.0Mbps to 48.0Mbps by SmartBit.

Actual Speed is improved from 27Mbps to 34Mbps.

Ver1.30 -> Ver2.01

The number of MAC address restriction was changed from up to 64 into up to 128.

j.m.'s ReplayTV Tools
Home of WinDVA, the Win32 DVArchive launcher
j.m. is offline  
post #190 of 703 Old 12-04-2003, 06:36 PM
Member
 
jrgreenman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 187
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
But still no loopback??? Doh!!
jrgreenman is offline  
post #191 of 703 Old 12-04-2003, 07:28 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
jwtseng's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 704
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
j.m.:

Thanks for keeping us all up to date! My WBR-G54's have been running without a hitch ever since I set them up! The Replay 5040's have never lost connection to each other and streaming between the two have been wonderfully flawless. I hope others have been equally satisfied!
jwtseng is offline  
post #192 of 703 Old 12-04-2003, 08:18 PM
AVS Special Member
 
j.m.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 2,335
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally posted by jrgreenman
But still no loopback??? Doh!!
No, however, I believe the Linksys WRT54G has loopback (can someone confirm this please?). This is relevant because it is based on a very similar firmware as the WBR-G54. It consists of a Linux kernel and a CRAMFS image containing the www pages and linux binaries (including busybox etc.). The Linksys has been opened up to hacking and people have built custom firmware that includes new features such as telnetd by compiling the GPL source Linksys must provide for the Linux parts of the router. You can see a very thorough discussion of this at http://www.seattlewireless.net/index.cgi/LinksysWrt54g .

Buffalo also provides GPL source for its firmware. Unfortunately, it is not as complete as the Linksys source. That aside, if any of you Linux gurus knows what has to be done to enable loopback in a Linux-based router, it may be possible to add the feature to the WBR-G54 ourselves. I would really appreciate any of you who do have such info sharing it, as I am very curious as to how complicated it is.

j.m.'s ReplayTV Tools
Home of WinDVA, the Win32 DVArchive launcher
j.m. is offline  
post #193 of 703 Old 12-04-2003, 09:30 PM
AVS Special Member
 
sfhub's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 9,527
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
If they are running linux and iptables, you really just need to be able
to telnet to the buffalo. Once you do that, the iptables config needed
for IVS to work on the local LAN was discussed here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...33#post2364833

The key is to be able to telnet to the router, then entering the iptables
config should be relatively simple.
sfhub is offline  
post #194 of 703 Old 12-04-2003, 10:12 PM
AVS Special Member
 
j.m.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 2,335
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally posted by sfhub
If they are running linux and iptables, you really just need to be able
to telnet to the buffalo. Once you do that, the iptables config needed
for IVS to work on the local LAN was discussed here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...33#post2364833

The key is to be able to telnet to the router, then entering the iptables
config should be relatively simple.
Thanks for the info! THe WBR-G54 does run Linux; however, it does not have the iptables executable. It runs Zebra (www.zebra.org), which apparently is a Cisco router emulator for Linux. I know something similar to iptables must be used on the router, but I can't find it right now. Netconf does work and shows the forwarding info etc.

j.m.'s ReplayTV Tools
Home of WinDVA, the Win32 DVArchive launcher
j.m. is offline  
post #195 of 703 Old 12-05-2003, 10:02 AM
Member
 
octavian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Redondo Beach, CA
Posts: 123
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally posted by j.m.
Buffalo also provides GPL source for its firmware. Unfortunately, it is not as complete as the Linksys source. That aside, if any of you Linux gurus knows what has to be done to enable loopback in a Linux-based router, it may be possible to add the feature to the WBR-G54 ourselves. I would really appreciate any of you who do have such info sharing it, as I am very curious as to how complicated it is. [/b]
Did you find the GPL source on their website? I have looked but can't find it. I also found a couple of links from other people posting it, but the links no longer work. I am not a linux guru either, but I am interested in learning about this.

octavian
octavian is offline  
post #196 of 703 Old 12-05-2003, 10:52 AM
AVS Special Member
 
j.m.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 2,335
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
The GPL source is here http://www.buffalotech.com/wireless/.../faq/index.php . It is the last item under the FAQ (look for the penguin). It really doesn't help very much, unfortunately, because it doesn't include much documentation and appears to be missing some of the source necessary to build custom firmware.

j.m.'s ReplayTV Tools
Home of WinDVA, the Win32 DVArchive launcher
j.m. is offline  
post #197 of 703 Old 12-05-2003, 11:25 AM
AVS Special Member
 
moyekj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Mission Viejo, CA
Posts: 4,660
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 12
I still fail to see any real value of local loopback for RTVs. I spent some time setting up IVS and port forwarding quite a while ago to get it to work between my 3 RTVs on the LAN, mostly out of curiosity. Once it was working it really dawned on me that it's not a big deal - it allows one to quickly transfer a show from one RTV to another on your LAN. But it's much more convenient/flexible to transfer it to a PC/laptop via DVA at which point you can do anything you want with it including streaming to any RTV on the LAN or burning it to VCD/DVD. I must be missing something so please enlighten me?

TiVo 6 tuner Roamio Pro, Elite & Premiere + MoCA networking.
kmttg - Tivo To Go and Advanced Remote Control

moyekj is offline  
post #198 of 703 Old 12-05-2003, 12:57 PM
AVS Special Member
 
sfhub's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 9,527
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
It's basically the only way to move a video from one unit to another.

If one has no need for this and offloading to PC is perfectly acceptable
they'll feel just as you.

Sometimes I'll move stuff around to organize utilize space available more
efficiently and I don't feel like explaining to others to boot up the PC before
accessing Replay Guide. If I had the PC running 24/7 it wouldn't be as big
a deal.

So in my usage, it's mainly a convenience factor for the people in the
house who don't want to deal with turning on the PCs to watch their
shows.
sfhub is offline  
post #199 of 703 Old 12-05-2003, 04:35 PM
Member
 
phlegmer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 92
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I know this is a little off the current topic but I was wondering if anyone has been using WEP with these units yet? So far I have been using my "G" blanket in a pretty open state just to make sure all is well. Now that I'm confident it has been working fine, it's time to lock it down. My only concern about WEP is if it will slow the transfer of the video in any way.

The other thing I want to do is turn off the broadcasting. My question is if all the G54's broadcasting are turned off, how will my laptop know to switch to them if it doesn't see it through broadcasting?

I'm sorry if these are stupid questions but I'm a little new to the wireless thing.

Thanks
phlegmer is offline  
post #200 of 703 Old 12-05-2003, 06:06 PM
Member
 
jrgreenman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 187
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally posted by phlegmer
I know this is a little off the current topic but I was wondering if anyone has been using WEP with these units yet? So far I have been using my "G" blanket in a pretty open state just to make sure all is well. Now that I'm confident it has been working fine, it's time to lock it down. My only concern about WEP is if it will slow the transfer of the video in any way.
There is a performance hit using WEP, but I am still able to stream standard quality video no problem. The performance hit is predicted at 10%-20% I think (not nearly enough to slow it down to 11b levels) I believe because the encoding/decoding of encrypted packets is done in software. That's the difference betw WEP and WPA. Buffalo tells me WPA uses a hardware coprocessor. But WPA doesn't work in bridge mode. Swell.

Quote:
The other thing I want to do is turn off the broadcasting. My question is if all the G54's broadcasting are turned off, how will my laptop know to switch to them if it doesn't see it through broadcasting?
If any of the routers are in brodge mode, "seamless" roaming also will not work because the routers will all need unique ESSIDs. Non-seamless roaming relies on the OSes ability to simply reassociate w/ a stronger signal once a weak one fades. But given the "blanket" you reference, I can't imagine what would encourage a client to give up, say, a 60% signal for a 90% signal.

I'm kinda new to this too and am mostly regurgitating what Buffalo has told me. So if any of my "facts" are off, no one will hurt my feelings by correcting them.
jrgreenman is offline  
post #201 of 703 Old 12-05-2003, 06:33 PM
AVS Special Member
 
sfhub's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 9,527
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally posted by jrgreenman
That's the difference betw WEP and WPA. Buffalo tells me WPA uses a hardware coprocessor. But WPA doesn't work in bridge mode. Swell.

If any of the routers are in brodge mode, "seamless" roaming also will not work because the routers will all need unique ESSIDs.
The hardware encryption is not a function of WEP vs WPA. Actually
WPA uses the same encryption as WEP, but there are extra provisions
in WPA to protect the encryption key and for authentication.

AES is a more processor intensive encryption that was not included in
WPA because the feeling was it would be too much for older systems
to implement.

Buffalo uses Broadcom chipset which includes hardware support for AES
in the 54g AirForce chipset. That is why you will see AES support in the
Buffalo products and any product which uses the same chipset.

Buffalo also supports WDS-bridging, in which case the bridges use the
*same* SSIDs and can support simultaneous bridging and access point
duties (since you are sharing SSID and channel, there are performance
ramifications)
sfhub is offline  
post #202 of 703 Old 12-05-2003, 06:46 PM
AVS Special Member
 
moyekj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Mission Viejo, CA
Posts: 4,660
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally posted by phlegmer

The other thing I want to do is turn off the broadcasting. My question is if all the G54's broadcasting are turned off, how will my laptop know to switch to them if it doesn't see it through broadcasting?
Thanks
I have broadcasting turned off by default for my Linksys wireless router (as extra precaution obvioulsy along with a custom SSID). As long as you can manually configure the correct SSID to use for your laptop client 802.11g software it is able to associate with the access point. I have had 3 different clients, 2 out of 3 let me directly specify SSID to use manually, 3rd I could not. For the 3rd I temporarily turned broadcasting back on in the router, let the client associate and then turned broadcasting back off, and after that the client software "remembers" the SSID to use and associates without any problem (without having to re-enable broadcasting on the router).

With broadcasting turned off and MAC address filtering enabled I really don't see any need for enabling WEP. I don't care about signals being intercepted, all I care about is unauthorized access to my LAN.

TiVo 6 tuner Roamio Pro, Elite & Premiere + MoCA networking.
kmttg - Tivo To Go and Advanced Remote Control

moyekj is offline  
post #203 of 703 Old 12-05-2003, 09:22 PM
AVS Special Member
 
sfhub's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 9,527
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally posted by moyekj
With broadcasting turned off and MAC address filtering enabled I really don't see any need for enabling WEP. I don't care about signals being intercepted, all I care about is unauthorized access to my LAN.
WEP and WPA aren't just about encrypting data. They handle to various
levels of succes authentication as well as encryption.

The MAC address of your "allowed" nodes are freely available in the
"intercepted" signals you don't care about, so it is trivial to capture
your packets and spoof the MAC address of an "allowed" node.

When choosing an authentication method, it should be understood
that WEP and WPA are attempting to perform authentication based on
cryptography while MAC address filtering is trying to perform authentication
based on filtering of a publicly visible MAC address.

Any authentication is better than none and how much you want to
implement should be dependent on your situation.
sfhub is offline  
post #204 of 703 Old 12-05-2003, 11:02 PM
Member
 
phlegmer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 92
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Good info thus far! What about 802.1x? Would it be worth while to use this method instead? I see that this is another option in both my Orinoco Gold combo card and the Buffalo's.
phlegmer is offline  
post #205 of 703 Old 12-10-2003, 07:53 AM
Senior Member
 
roddie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Frisco, Texas, USA
Posts: 477
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Has anyone seen any good deals on WBR-G54s lately? I'm going to pick up another one along with an Audiotron to throw in the bedroom.

Newegg has them for $95 shipped or so, which is probably where I'll get the AT as well.

Shining the flashlight of reason into the dark corners of stupidity for over three and a half decades!
ccie.tv
roddie is offline  
post #206 of 703 Old 12-10-2003, 09:10 PM
Member
 
phlegmer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 92
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Has anyone seen any good deals on WBR-G54s lately?
Funny you ask that because I too wanted to get another one. And as usual... Dell has come through.

Here is what I just did through Dell Home:

Airstation cost $92.95
10% off all peripheral -$9.29
Free shipping $0.00
3% off for using the Dell Preferred Account -$2.51

Total cost -$81.15


Granted this isn't as good as what the Buffalo's were orginally from Dell on this thread but not too shabby IMHO

The 10% and Free shipping are for a limited time (of course) so I don't know how long this deal will last. Just go to the Dell Home webpage and browse to the Buffalo's, check out and it should subtract all the goodies. For some reason when I did a search for these and then added it to my cart, it wouldn't give me free shipping. (go figure)

The additional 3% is a hit and miss thing from what I've seen in the past. I got it when it asked how you want to pay for it and I selected one credit card. After that, I got a link that asked if I want to use my Dell Preffered Account to take an additional 3%.

Good luck to all!
phlegmer is offline  
post #207 of 703 Old 12-11-2003, 04:56 AM
Senior Member
 
roddie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Frisco, Texas, USA
Posts: 477
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Thanks, phlegmer - I'll check it out. $88 with tax isn't too bad, I guess.

Shining the flashlight of reason into the dark corners of stupidity for over three and a half decades!
ccie.tv
roddie is offline  
post #208 of 703 Old 12-11-2003, 04:58 PM
Senior Member
 
roddie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Frisco, Texas, USA
Posts: 477
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I found a $20 rebate for this - There's a vendor list, though, so I'll report back in a bit with the lowest price from the list.

The rebate form is here:

http://images.pricegrabber.com/rebates/4826.pdf

Shining the flashlight of reason into the dark corners of stupidity for over three and a half decades!
ccie.tv
roddie is offline  
post #209 of 703 Old 12-11-2003, 05:06 PM
Senior Member
 
roddie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Frisco, Texas, USA
Posts: 477
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Looks like J&R has the best price, but they're out of stock:

http://www.jandr.com/JRProductPage.p...uct_Id=3677492

TechDepot has stock and a pretty good price, but their shipping is high:

http://www.techdepot.com/product.asp...437099&iid=939

phlegmer's deal is just as good if you're in a state where Dell doesn't charge sales tax.

I think I'm going with TechDepot, I want another Audiotron. :D

Shining the flashlight of reason into the dark corners of stupidity for over three and a half decades!
ccie.tv
roddie is offline  
post #210 of 703 Old 12-11-2003, 05:19 PM
Senior Member
 
roddie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Frisco, Texas, USA
Posts: 477
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Oops, techdepot.com is an Office Depot company - Hello sales tax.

Back to the drawing board - I hope someone gets some use out of the rebate.

Shining the flashlight of reason into the dark corners of stupidity for over three and a half decades!
ccie.tv
roddie is offline  
Closed Thread ReplayTV & Showstopper PVRs

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off