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post #91 of 424 Old 12-22-2003, 12:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by rayw69
On this account, I think you are wrong. You are vastly underestimating the power of the Hot Deals forum of places like FW and Anand, among others. I'd say Hot Dealers outnumber "bonafide" purchasers 10-1. That would be a very conservative estimate.
Yeah, I can see what you're saying and not sure I disagree, either. I am just thinking of the number of J6P holiday shoppers out there these past 2 weeks who aren't privy to the deals. You raise a good point...

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post #92 of 424 Old 12-22-2003, 01:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by rayw69
This is referred to as the grace period.
Is there anything in/on the 55xx that talks about a grace period? I thought it was all stickers and flyers and whatnot that said 3 years service. So, if someone gets one, and the box says 3 years, the flyer says 3 years, and after connecting to the RTV servers, the machine itself says 3 years, then how can you say they were not given 'X'?

If I had a 55xx and for a few days it said 3 years service, then one morning it said '10 days grace period, 1/1/2004 shutoff' I would definitely feel that something I originally had, had been taken away.
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post #93 of 424 Old 12-22-2003, 01:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally posted by rainbow_wahine
I know you are in a tight spot, being a retailer and yet a consumer and advocate on this board. I didn't read a lot of "the sky is falling" in your post.....but that's okay, there's plenty of that going on as it is.
Just to be clear: I'm not a retailer, I actually have a computer business.

I'm just a long-time fan of the platform, for all that it's done right and wrong, from owner to owner. I can be as much a cheerleader as I can be a bitter critic. I think Replay is in a terribly tight spot right now, and its disappointing because the move to unbundle service was the right move to make. It just seems like once again, for whatever reason, Replay does the right thing and everything goes wrong. Sonicblue, the previous owner, had the same troubles in different ways.

Replay may never be as big as TiVo, it may never have had a chance. But I certainly don't see that this is going to be the defining moment, make or break.

Remember, it's just television...
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post #94 of 424 Old 12-22-2003, 01:02 PM
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I'm a long time ReplayTV owner (showstopper, and two 5040s). And since then I've turned four friends and five co-workers onto replayTV. My friend lived with his parents when he first got his 5040 last year. Since he moved about two months ago, his parents have been thinking about buying one.

His father went to CC this past saturday and decided to buy one at full price of $499 with 3 years of service included. At the register the unit rang up $150, so after being told it was recently reduced he decided to buy another for their bedroom. I talked to him this weekend, and told him the service probably isn't included at the $150 price. In the end he's still keeping one and paying full price for the service, but I know he was disappointed when we told him he'd probably have to pay full price for both if he wanted to keep them.

But he was still happy cause (150 + 300) is still cheaper than $499.
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post #95 of 424 Old 12-22-2003, 01:02 PM
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Originally posted by jleavens
Totally agree. Regardless of any arguments I make, I do think the situation sucks and never should have happened. But I also think that a lot of the attitude sucks, mostly at Fatwallet, and in the back of my head wonder if Replay might not have come across the Fatwallet thread and changed their mind on how to handle this.

Let's be realistic here. For the most part, this is not grandmas being prodded for their sales receipt. This is, for the most part, people trying to take advantage of the situation that they were fully aware of... And I can't say I blame them, I might have tried to myself if I thought I could just buy a unit and have it work. But I shudder to think that I would I become indignant when my attempt to take advantage didn't pan out.
I have a feeling Replay did come across the FW thread, as all new postings to that thread are now being screened by FW moderators before they are posted. Even so, I think FW people are a small minority of the eventual recipients of these Replays.

I think, for the most part, these units will end up with Replay newbies either hearing about the good deal from a friend, or receiving it as a gift. I know I would be pretty mad if I received a gift that worked for a while, and then asked me for another $300 to continue using it, especially when it says right on the box that 3 years of service is included.
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post #96 of 424 Old 12-22-2003, 01:03 PM
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I know it probably isn't clear from my posts, but I want people to get their units w/sub. I'm just never going to take the position that you deserve (morally or legally) the subs, or that DNNA benefits from letting you have them.
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post #97 of 424 Old 12-22-2003, 01:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by jleavens
I'm still curious to know why people believe they deserve to be "enriched" (ie get service activation that should cost $300 for nothing) when they can be "made whole" by returning the unit to the retailer?

I guess I don't understand the feeling of entitlement. If I buy a computer and they promise that "it will work" and "you will be happy with it", I have 30 days to evaluate those claims for myself, and have the opportunity to get a full refund on all costs. No one here is claiming that any of this was purposeful, and I think anyone would be hard pressed to find any evidence that this was purposeful. The fact that you can get a full refund seems to me to mitigate the damages.

(Yeah, it's clear that I'm not a lawyer, but I watch a lot of "People's Court" :) )
You know, I see your point of view, but I still have a problem with the way ReplayTV is going about all of this. Thankfully we have contract law to prevent stuff like this from happening (like I said it's not worth my time to fight this legally, but I do believe ReplayTV to be in violation of contract law - IANAL either).

What if you find out that the new house you bought is built on top of a goldmine - does the previous owner have any claim? Of course not - was he 'made whole' by the sale? Not really, but hey, he never looked for it, so, his loss. Once terms are agreed to and consideration is accepted, it's a done deal, plain and simple.

Now, a judge might rule that CC can make me whole by refunding my money - I don't know exactly how that works, but in my silly analogy, that would be like a judge making you whole by refunding the price you paid for the house and giving the rights of the goldmine back to the previous owner. How pissed would you be?!?!

Back to the real world - the other problem is that some retailers like CompUSA charge a 15% restocking fee. Now consumers wishing to be made 'whole' under your terms will have to fight with the retailer about that. That STINKS. *Maybe* CompUSA is aware of all this and will waive the restocking fee, but I doubt they will. It's a plain policy of theirs simply spelled out. Same problem with shipping costs, as pointed out by another post.

It's a bad move for ReplayTV to demand that people who legitimately bought these units under the most recent terms will have to provide proof. What's to stop ReplayTV from asking for proof again in a year? What's to stop Replay from discontinuing service to anyone who bought a floor model unit under whatever price threshold they deem important?

Nothing.
Nothing except contract law and whoever is willing to fight them on it. That ain't me. I'll keep my unit until I have to return it, and if it doesn't work by then, it'll go back, and I'll go back to keeping an eye out for any really good deals on a TiVo.
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post #98 of 424 Old 12-22-2003, 01:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by brian7972
Come on now...What's a realistic "lifetime" in these units anyway ? 5 years, tops? We're talking $12 a year after the third year. Whoopty-f-n-do. :)
Okay, well consider that a $25 break on activation then.

Remember, it's just television...
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post #99 of 424 Old 12-22-2003, 01:04 PM
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It just seems like once again, for whatever reason, Replay does the right thing and everything goes wrong.
This is EXACTLY why I feel badly for everyone involved in this situation, including DNNA. There appears to be no intent whatsoever to pull the wool over anyone's eyes (like is usually the case in these types of situation). The only thing worse than DNNA taking the heat for this is if the bona fide unwitting purchasers take the heat (which it appears they are).

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post #100 of 424 Old 12-22-2003, 01:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by rayw69
I know it probably isn't clear from my posts, but I want people to get their units w/sub. I'm just never going to take the position that you deserve (morally or legally) the subs, or that DNNA benefits from letting you have them.
I agree that they should get the subs too, but why can't you agree that they are legally entitled to them? I'm trying to understand the other side of this situation?
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post #101 of 424 Old 12-22-2003, 01:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by jleavens
Okay, well consider that a $25 break on activation then.
Yep, nice gesture, that's for sure. Just not enough nickels and dimes to assuage the sting if I was a BFP with a soon to be doorstop.

As your initial post alluded to, however, it's virtually impossible to determine who's an opportunist and who's a BFP...that's the rub and frankly, I haven't determined how I would have handled it either...tough one.

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post #102 of 424 Old 12-22-2003, 01:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by jleavens
The argument was that the retailers were informed that there was an upcoming dramatic price change that was to be coupled with changes that would require re-marking the inventory and changing the sales literature. Some of the retailers sold units at the new pricing, before the pricing went into effect, and without making changes to the inventory as required.
Yes, Replay changed the deal and caused confusion. But if the retailers hadn't jumped the gun on the pricing, they might have carried out the second half of the equation without confusing the heck out of their customers.
For this to work in Replay's favor, they will need to prove that they made attempts to make packaging changes to the inventory channels in someway that would have excluded all advertisements of service was included in the sale of the product.
At this time I have not yet read any official release that Replay sent THEIR field sales reps to the retailers to provide retailers & warehouse distribution centers with either the means to make these packaging changes or do it them selves.
Changing the price alone does not get Replay off the hook, the truth in advertising laws are not that easy to sidestep. Again any & all official public information about these changes only took place today.
So then Why can I still go into my local CC store and find boxes with the advertised three years service included & these same statements are still on the display unit that the consumers use to base his/her purchasing decisions on.
I really don't think this is in anyway the fault of CC, as when they send out a corporate memo, ALL stores have it within seconds & the managers take the appropriate actions immediately, The lack of these measures to this date tells me that Replay still has not taken control of the situation and place a temporary fix with their press release and finally update to their own web site.
Yet this press release is not a fix to the truth in advertising laws that they are governed.
Most companies would either call back all product out in the channels, in this case open each to remove all statements within that advertise service included & additional service available at a given rate, and remove/modify the external advertisements. Or make the appropriate arrangements to have it done in the field.
Some companies just call back this inventory & sell it from other channels in liquidation sales. It looks to me like Replay tried to accomplish this on the cheap side.
Replay has a long road ahead of many fights; they can even to this date stop the bleeding as I believe that most of the current inventory is now in the consumers’ hands, those few that are not can be modified to reflect the new changes, Replay should cut the loses, live up to the truth in advertising laws and eat this blunder and move on
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post #103 of 424 Old 12-22-2003, 01:19 PM
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Originally posted by jleavens
Uhm, what about the fact that they're giving lifetime service on the units that paid the actual price instead of three-year?
It is my understanding that this was the part of the change in pricing plan all along. They did not do that as a gesture of good will as a result of this mistake that has caused so much confusion, anger, and disappointment among new owners. What do *they* get as a result of this that they wouldn't have otherwise? Nothing. You will say they aren't entitled to anything, they can return it, etc. However, it is undisputable that MANY of these people bought units that in NO WAY included any evidence that they did not include service. What's more, the ReplayTV web site and CSRs (who are agents of ReplayTV) UP UNTIL TODAY *told* these people that service was included. Just as a matter of keeping them happy if nothing else, this created some kind of responsibility for ReplayTV to these customers. Whether that be in the form of a discount (even small) or something else, I don't care. The point is that it is not good business for DNNA to leave the customers holding the bag for its OWN mistakes, even if it has no contractual/legal obligation (though I think it might in at least some cases).

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post #104 of 424 Old 12-22-2003, 01:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by grimas
ReplayTV President Bernie Sepaniak commented on the company’s pricing move, noting: “ReplayTV has always been committed to providing our customers with superior quality premium DVRs, offering the most powerful feature sets, highest recording capacity, as well as the industry’s best overall value. With our new pricing model, we’re making a ReplayTV DVR purchase even more attractive for consumers, providing unprecedented value, while allowing them to choose between either purchasing the lifetime service upfront or on a monthly subscription basis.â€
Did no one else notice this?!?!?!

ReplayTV President Bernie Sepaniak commented

So, what happened to Jim?
http://www.digitalnetworksna.com/com...lingsworth.asp
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post #105 of 424 Old 12-22-2003, 01:39 PM
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Oh, I see... *you* expect the website to be *current*. Heck, I don't know what to believe any more.... someone trotting out a policy out as new, when it was the story of the day, when it was the on again, off again, policy for years....

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post #106 of 424 Old 12-22-2003, 01:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by jleavens
Uhm, what about the fact that they're giving lifetime service on the units that paid the actual price instead of three-year?
Like I pointed out before....

Let's do the math:

old price:
Replay5504 for $499 with 3 years of activation

new price:
Replay5504 for $149 with no activation. Activation for lifetime is $299.

Old price now has 3 years upgraded to lifetime, that's cool.

But...
let's see $149+$299 is $448 and that's $51 less than the old price that some, like myself just paid!
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post #107 of 424 Old 12-22-2003, 01:41 PM
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Bernie is the president of Escient.
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post #108 of 424 Old 12-22-2003, 01:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by NearlyGod
I agree that they should get the subs too, but why can't you agree that they are legally entitled to them? I'm trying to understand the other side of this situation?
I should clarify a bit.

If DNNA instructed the retailers to reduce the price of the units to correspond with the new activation policy on the 22nd, but the retailers jumped the gun and lowered the price on the 17th, then people are legally entitled to their activation. The retailers would eat the cost in this scenario. It would be like they had some sort of special sale.

That said, I consider this to be unlikely. If only 1 retailer had changed the price early, it would make some sense. The fact that CC, Amazon, Good Guys, RS, all changed the price on the 17th suggests that the 17th was the date of the policy change. If this scenario is true, then the people who purchased on the 17th should not get activation. The fact that the boxes stated there was activation was irrelevent. There were reports of some CC's having the sticker written over in black marker, and of workers at CC stating that the sticker on the box was no longer true at the new price. This, combined with pu82's post that retailers were notified early, suggests to me that the retailers are to blame for not informing customers that the new price meant there were new terms.

This is the basic logic of my arugment.
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post #109 of 424 Old 12-22-2003, 01:49 PM
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Yeah, that may have been a typo... the Escient website still has him there, and Google doesn't show anything about changes at Escient or ReplayTV... bet the PR department f-ed up. Gee....

(I just can't stand this level of incompetence...)

If it's not clear, ReplayTV, Escient, and Rio are all holdings of DNNA:
http://www.dm-holdings.com/media_pre...ail.jsp?id=664

-Lee (See my profile for equipment.)
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post #110 of 424 Old 12-22-2003, 01:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by vivarey
Maybe you should look up the definition of accountability. It IS the heart of our culture.
If I can buy a coffee at McDonald and then spill it on myself, I get burnt because I was sold "hot" coffee. I then sue for $1M and win... well, let's just say there are major problems with our legal system.
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post #111 of 424 Old 12-22-2003, 02:01 PM
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There has been recent speculation that the Replay unit was going to be folded into Escient, so maybe this isn't a mistake.

ReplayLyndon - are you in Indiana now?

For those of you who dont know, Escient is a very cool company who makes quite a few network powered multimedia devices. They have been innovating in this space for many years.
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post #112 of 424 Old 12-22-2003, 02:04 PM
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BFP and J6P? Can someone define those for me please?

Ray I'm not trying to make this personal but why do you think that DNNA could change its policy but not inform consumers through either its website or its CSR line, nor change the packaging to reflect the new policy yet you feel it did nothing wrong? I'm not following that unless of course you're a stock holder? :D
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post #113 of 424 Old 12-22-2003, 02:05 PM
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One person can answer the question:
Justin... Is Jim or Bernie the Pres of ReplayTV? If it's not Jim, what happened? This should be public knowledge, D&M is a public company.
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post #114 of 424 Old 12-22-2003, 02:22 PM
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First of all, my bias is affected by the D&M Holdings rescue (although it could be only temporarily) of ReplayTV from what appeared at the time to be impending doom less than a year ago. I haven't been real happy with the way DNNA has run the ship, but I'm giving them a little more leeway because of their rescue and the fact that I love Denon & Marantz products. Bottom line is I hope they figure out how to keep ReplayTV afloat for the long haul, because I think there's awesome potential for it in a fully integrated home theater setup.

It was pretty clear to me that until today DNNA's official position was that all 55XX units included 3 years activation AND that the pricing model hadn't changed yet. Since we saw no official word directly from DNNA (only indirectly through resellers) that the new pricing was effective until today, it looks like we have a salesman who sold a $400 value item for $150.

Fair or right or not, I believe that unless there's some fine print somewhere that was being misrepresented by the salesman, all units that had stickers plastered all over them claiming 3 years of service SHOULD HAVE THAT SERVICE, regardless of the selling price. IMO, those who were never told directly via signage or a salesman that you were getting service and the unit for $150 have no beef.

I've seen a lot of justifying "claims" that ReplayTV's website and CSRs were touting 3 years service. Of course they were - ReplayTV's website was selling units under the old pricing the whole time. Their official position was that units were $449 and included 3 years activation. What clouded the issue was when "outside representatives" of their product indicated otherwise.

Some people suggest that DNNA should've changed the model number. I'm not sure how they could do that on units that are in distribution centers already boxed up? Besides that, the model number is embedded in the serial number which is already burned into the unit. Seems like it would've been impossible to change serial numbers.

Maybe DNNA will take a big hit on this fiasco, but maybe not. The number of people who are truly going to feel screwed over by this deal is relatively small in the big picture, and their complaints will fade away in the night as the sun rises on new priorities. I also believe the "gift" argument is way overblown - certainly the vast majority of buyers were buying it for themselves (can you say, "single tuner"?). I have three and I don't want any more (that don't do HD), but I wouldn't want any less.

I'm glad DNNA took some time in taking this official stance that they obviously thought long and hard about. It's not the way I would've done it, but they have a lot more at stake than we do and it was their call to make.

Cheers,

Tim
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post #115 of 424 Old 12-22-2003, 02:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jeff D
If I can buy a coffee at McDonald and then spill it on myself, I get burnt because I was sold "hot" coffee. I then sue for $1M and win... well, let's just say there are major problems with our legal system.
We're getting way OT here, but I'm compelled to chime in: (A) the woman who sued received third degree burns and required skin grafts over 6% of her body, including areas where you and I would not like to be burned (assuming we were women and HAD those areas, of course); (B) she offered to settle for $20,000, which McDonald's refused; (C) the multimillion dollar verdict she received was subsequently reduced on appeal to $480,000; (D) the jury found her 20% at fault and reduced her damages accordingly; (e) she and McDonald's ultimately entered into a private settlement agreement (presumably for less than the $480,000); and (F) the coffee was served at 180 degrees even thought McDonald's quality assurance manager testified on the stand that dangers arise with beverages at only 140 degrees.

I know you were taking a dig at the legal system (which is fine, we deserve it!), but wanted to chime in regarding the real facts of the McDonald's suit (which I learned all about while in law school). The legal profession has myriads of other targets at which to lob criticism, but this really isn't one of them. ;)

P.S. I'm a commercial litigator, and have never handled a personal injury case.

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post #116 of 424 Old 12-22-2003, 02:24 PM
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BFP and J6P? Can someone define those for me please?
Sorry, "BFP" is law school speak for "bona fide purchaser" and "J6P" is AVS-speak for "Joe Six Pack." :)

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post #117 of 424 Old 12-22-2003, 02:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by jleavens
I think Replay is in a terribly tight spot right now, and its disappointing because the move to unbundle service was the right move to make. It just seems like once again, for whatever reason, Replay does the right thing and everything goes wrong. Sonicblue, the previous owner, had the same troubles in different ways.
I just don't understand why they didn't keep the 55XX model at its current pricing, and then release NEW models with the new pricing (e.g. 56XX). Then, there would have been no confusion at all, and the consumer could save a little money by buying the newer models and activating for life. I understand its expensive to do such things, but its gotta be cheaper than losing $300/unit.

When a company tries to initiate a huge change in the pricing of their service - like DNNA is doing right now - they have to be prepared for some fumbling during the turnover. The product itself is already confusing to consumers (for the most part), so I don't understand how they didn't see this SNAFU coming a mile away. Certainly, they must have anticipated some problems, but probably not to this degree (thanks to FW). Now it seems as if they are backpeddling until they figure out what to do. Let's hope they do the right thing and live up to their promises. On the other hand, if the retailers are at fault for jumping the gun, let's hope they live up to that - and not expect DNNA to reimburse them for the loss.
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post #118 of 424 Old 12-22-2003, 02:32 PM
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Hmph.

A while back when I bailed on ReplayTV, someone (in another forum) asked me what it'd take to get me to buy ReplayTVs again.

I said, "probably about 3 years of operating without another major screw-up like version 5 or that time they deactivated everyones' 4500s or all those times when their ordering system was completely broken or..."

Just as official notice:

The clock just got reset back to three years.

Don't care whose fault this can be explained away as. Problems like this follow ReplayTV like flies, and given the pattern, the ultimate conclusion is that ReplayTV's at least somewhat responsible.

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post #119 of 424 Old 12-22-2003, 02:49 PM
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OT: Toots, you got directivos? I got two and I love them!!! Love may be a bit soft for how I really feel. And at $50 each (no one screwed up!!!) I couldn't say no.
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post #120 of 424 Old 12-22-2003, 02:52 PM
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Thanks for the clarification Brian. Your contributions are appreciated.
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