Official Word From Replay - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 424 Old 12-22-2003, 10:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by melduforx
Wow. A price mistake happens with the possibility of people having to either

a) return the units
or
b) pay the activation fee

...and you'd think DNNA were snatching their first-born child.
I think everyone here is guilty of turning this situation into a bigger issue than it actually is (and possibly, than even DNNA thinks it is).

So you really feel that DNNA does not have to live up to their promises? Do you expect the products you buy to live up to the specs advertised? How is this different? Sorry, but I just don't see a valid (or legal) argument in your posts at all. You talk about morality, yet you fail to see a problem with false advertising.

If those units do start de-activating, I wouldn't be surprised if people disputed the charge with their credit companies. Then the retailers would really lose out, and DNNA would be in a heap of trouble.
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post #182 of 424 Old 12-22-2003, 10:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by jay_k
And sorry, you can't short their stock...D&M Holdings is private. ;)
LOL - I'm sure a lot of people have looked that up over the past few days... ;)
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post #183 of 424 Old 12-22-2003, 10:47 PM
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Absolutely called support. Talked to them 3 times, even to an American! (level 2). They would NOT send me a new unit. The retailer is out of stock and will not give me a new one, and Replay says all theirs will not have the sticker, thus STILL not giving me what I purchased.

I understand the nuance of the problem they created, in that they are the ones who eat it if they can't sell service and the retailers blew it, but it is clearly their problem since they manage the retail chain. There are only a handful of people who can claim to have been through this like I have... I was involved in a startup that sold a certain brand of computers that were sold to us as having a "video card". We resold them under the same spec, but turns out they didn't have a card, it was integrated. Who was forced to eat that by a COURT? Well, let's just say it definitely wasn't the customer.
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post #184 of 424 Old 12-22-2003, 10:48 PM
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Oh, and to the person who said dispute with the CC company, I think that very well might be the best way to win... Question is do you dispute the box charge, or activate the service and then dispute that!
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post #185 of 424 Old 12-22-2003, 10:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by vivarey

If those units do start de-activating, I wouldn't be surprised if people disputed the charge with their credit companies. Then the retailers would really lose out, and DNNA would be in a heap of trouble.
The credit card companies are going to tell you to return it. I can't see the retailers not accepting the return under the circumstances.
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post #186 of 424 Old 12-22-2003, 10:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by telamon
The credit card companies are going to tell you to return it. I can't see the retailers not accepting the return under the circumstances.
I agree, you won't win any dispute if you can still return the item. People tend to overuse credit card disputes...they are really for when you paid for something and never received it at all, and the seller refuses to give you your money back. This is definitely not that situation.
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post #187 of 424 Old 12-22-2003, 10:56 PM
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Replay has no one to blame for this than themselves. They've handled the situation like idiots. What the should have done was just rev the model number and released new units. Sell the new units at $149 and keep the old stock at $499. Did they put any thought into this or did they just decided to lower the price on a whim one afternoon?
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post #188 of 424 Old 12-22-2003, 11:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by puppyfriend
Replay has no one to blame for this than themselves. They've handled the situation like idiots. What the should have done was just rev the model number and released new units. Sell the new units at $149 and keep the old stock at $499. Did they put any thought into this or did they just decided to lower the price on a whim one afternoon?
I'm sure they just wanted to move the units that had been sitting on shelves and in distribution centers the last several months. IMO, they should've just offered huge rebates and left the pricing structure alone - at least till the end of the year. It's amazing how messy this knee-jerk got.

Tim
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post #189 of 424 Old 12-22-2003, 11:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by jay_k
I agree, you won't win any dispute if you can still return the item. People tend to overuse credit card disputes...they are really for when you paid for something and never received it at all, and the seller refuses to give you your money back. This is definitely not that situation.
By that, I meant if the units de-activate after the return deadline. That would definitely qualify under the Fair Credit Billing Act mandated by the FCC. About the types of disputes covered, it says the FCBA settlement procedures apply only to disputes about "billing errors." For example, charges for goods and services you didn't accept or weren't delivered as agreed*. If anyone with a free activation sticker on their box doesn't receive the activation, DNNA broke their agreement and failed to deliver the goods.

*From: http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/credit/fcb.htm
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post #190 of 424 Old 12-22-2003, 11:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by vivarey
By that, I meant if the units de-activate after the return deadline. That would definitely qualify under the Fair Credit Billing Act mandated by the FCC. About the types of disputes covered, it says the FCBA settlement procedures apply only to disputes about "billing errors." For example, charges for goods and services you didn't accept or weren't delivered as agreed*. If anyone with a free activation sticker on their box doesn't receive the activation, DNNA broke their agreement and failed to deliver the goods.

*From: http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/credit/fcb.htm
That's true, but if this were to happen, I'm sure Replay would make arrangements with retailers to accept returns even after the deadline. Someone at the company must be aware of the FCBA.
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post #191 of 424 Old 12-22-2003, 11:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by icecow
Here's an article telling us what we already know, but there's no reason not to share it.

I didn't see it posted in any of these threads, forgive me if it has.

http://www.twice.com/index.asp?layou...y=breakingNews

cow
Holy crap cow!!! That press release is in the 2nd post in this thread!!!

You didn't see it because you didn't LOOK

Sorry, it's post #9
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...18#post3092718

And I might as well include this:
http://www.digitalnetworksna.com/com...ess.asp?ID=598
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post #192 of 424 Old 12-23-2003, 12:07 AM
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I hate it when people on "my side" of the argument make stupid points, thereby convincing people on the "other side" they are right.
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post #193 of 424 Old 12-23-2003, 12:15 AM
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I hate it when I make stupid points on the right side of the argument, aiding the argument on the wrong side :D.
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post #194 of 424 Old 12-23-2003, 12:33 AM
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Many people here seem fixated on "false advertising" and "broken promises" brought on by the green sticker. But if that sticker is mistakenly on the box, what is DNNA's or the retailers liability? Put another way, if my store accidentally marks the price of a $15,000 plasma TV as $1,500 and my idiotic sales staff sells them at that price, am I not allowed to go to those customers and demand they pay the $13,500 price difference or return the TV?
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post #195 of 424 Old 12-23-2003, 01:14 AM
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true, but not only is there a green sticker, but there is a note inside the box that says thank you for purchasing a unit with a three year subscription... unless you claim that was a mistake too?
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post #196 of 424 Old 12-23-2003, 01:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by JasonSo
Put another way, if my store accidentally marks the price of a $15,000 plasma TV as $1,500 and my idiotic sales staff sells them at that price, am I not allowed to go to those customers and demand they pay the $13,500 price difference or return the TV?
Absolutely not! What, you're going to come to my house and make me give back something you sold to me? Are you nuts?

How do you think you'd do this? You'd call the cops and tell them to bust down my door? Or tell them to make me give the TV back to you?
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post #197 of 424 Old 12-23-2003, 01:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jeff D
Holy crap cow!!! That press release is in the 2nd post in this thread!!!

You didn't see it because you didn't LOOK

Sorry, it's post #9
http://.......asp?ID=598
I don't know what your problem is but it's close to not being mine.

cow
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post #198 of 424 Old 12-23-2003, 01:34 AM
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The good news is: For those people who have purchased 5500 units or 5040 units from Radio Shack that included 3 years of service, you will now have your service activations converted to "lifetime"! No more of that 99 cents/month add-on to worry about.
My RS unit was already activated with 3 years when i called on the 17 (and is still as of now). Does this means i got upgraded to lifetime :-) or am i out of luck on this one and should expect to get de-activated anytime soon?

Can't believe RTV would do some like that! Even Dell didn't back out of their mistake on the 200 GB and they were no potential there for them to get more sale or subscription out of it....

IMO, if RTV doesn't know how to 'capitalize' on their mistake, they should learn from Dell or they'll feel the pain from the bad word of mouth they'll get...
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post #199 of 424 Old 12-23-2003, 01:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by cyrnos
IMO, if RTV doesn't know how to 'capitalize' on their mistake, they should learn from Dell or they'll feel the pain from the bad word of mouth they'll get...
If it's true that Circuit City employees were told to offer price cuts on Tivos to people who were returning Replays then at least we know that SOMEBODY has the understanding of how to capitalize on this mess.
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post #200 of 424 Old 12-23-2003, 02:02 AM
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Well, I've never owned a TIVO or ReplayTV before, and have never paid any attention to their pricing structure. I do own an EyeTV DVR for my Mac, which cost m $180, which I'm happy with.

So, when I was at RS looking for Xmas gifts for my brother and sister the other day, I saw these ReplayTV's being advertised. The price was the typical RS half-red tag, that showed the Retail Price $499, then a line below it that said SAVE $350, and then a line below that with the final price of $149. As is typical, the SAVE $350 line caught my eye.

Now, when I saw the price, I didn't think that anyone, the retailer or the mfr was getting screwed. I figured that the model was being phased out, because the harddrive size was/seemed small, and harddrive prices for a 40Gig drive have been dropping like a rock. Second, I figured this was one of those Xmas special prices that were intended to drive foot traffic. I bought a Pioneer DVD burner from OfficeMax last year for $170, when the best internet price at the time was $250. So, you do see "special" prices from time2time.

Now, there was a placard that stated 3-yr activation included. I asked the salesman about it, and he affirmed that activation was included. It was clear from the the price tag that these items were priced to SAVE $350, compared to the Retail price. Clearly, you can only SAVE $350 if activation is included. In my opinion, RS, is the one who messed up, if anyone messed up. They clearly misled customers in their advertising and in their verbal representations. I'm just wondering if it was intentional. Think about it, how many people are going to return these items, or just eat the activation cost? I sent these as gifts across the country to my bro and sis, which cost me $60! I'm telling them to return them to the nearest Radio Shack and to get a refund and to spend their money elsewhere, so as to NOT REWARD RS for screwing up.

I've already lost $60 in this stupid transaction due to RS's incompetence, and don't planto lose any more.

As for the moderator's queries as to why some people would expect to pay less than the real price, the question is why do you think $300 for activation is the "real price"? As far as I was concerned, I have an EyeTV DVR that records to my external harddrive, which I can then edit and archive easily to DVD or VCD. I paid $180, including an easy-to-use programming service, TitanTV. I have no idea what ReplayTV's programming guide does for me that would indicate that it's worth $300. And, the fixed cost for developing the programming guide must surely be amortized by now, while the operational cost of bandwidth, etc, can't be $13 a month, so what is the "real cost"? Are you going to tell me that RS and other retailers pay ReplayTV, $300, when they sell a full-price unit for the subscription on top of the cost of the hardware? I'm sure RS and other retailers pay a fraction of the $300 subscription cost, so what's the "real price"? Isn't RS able to set their own prices? If they want to sell a loss-leader to generate foot traffic, isn't that up to them? How am I to know what lurks in their evil minds? I am happy to return the units, but I've already mailed them, and am annoyed that now I'll have to tell my siblings to return the things. They'll want to know why, and I'll have to explain this nonsense to them on Xmas. All this aggravation besides being out $60 for shipping.

I'm sure some people will eat the activation cost, and so, I'm just wondering if this wasn't just some ploy all along. My RS told me I bought the only two units they EVER had, so firesaling them didn't seem totally unreasonable to me. So, you shouldn't indict angry buyers, for the clear screwup by the retailer, who may not have been so innocent after all.
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post #201 of 424 Old 12-23-2003, 03:42 AM
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I really don't see the confusion with all of this.

The sign in the store said this price.

The box (inside and out) said 3 years activation included.

Sounds good to me, sold !


Hmm, it dosen't (or maybe won't work as advertised). That is a clear cut case of FALSE ADVERTISING which is ILLEGAL in the United States. A price typo can only exist in sale papers and flyers outside the store, that is why there are disclaimers in said ads saying not responsible for typo's.

I could care less who is at fault regarding the retailer or the manufacturer, they can sort it out. I gave the retailer my money, so I go after them first.

I could return it, but then who knows when I will be FALSELY ADVERTISED to again to buy another product.
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post #202 of 424 Old 12-23-2003, 06:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by JasonSo
Many people here seem fixated on "false advertising" and "broken promises" brought on by the green sticker. But if that sticker is mistakenly on the box, what is DNNA's or the retailers liability? Put another way, if my store accidentally marks the price of a $15,000 plasma TV as $1,500 and my idiotic sales staff sells them at that price, am I not allowed to go to those customers and demand they pay the $13,500 price difference or return the TV?
First, to answer your question - no you can't go demand they pay $13,500 after the sale is completed. If a store sells something at the wrong price and you can't prove the consumer knew it was the wrong price and the transaction is complete (money has changed hands) then the store is stuck. Some will correctly argue that most FWers knew that this was a mistake, unfortunately there is no way for RTV to figure out which customers knew it was a mistake and which didn't - therein lies their problem. Apparently they have decided to treat all customers as if they knew - that isn't going to fly.

Since you brought up the green sticker issue, I think these points bear repeating again:

(1) The sticker was not mistakenly on the box.

(2) This was not a price mistake

(3) There was confirmation for all sides that these units were being sold for $150 with 3-year service. Read that again. Replay CSR's said it was true. The retailers said it was true. The web sites said it (both Replay's and the retailers). NO ONE was saying anything contrary.

Its not like we are grasping at the little green sticker on the box while everyone else was telling us a different story - EVERYONE WAS TELLING US THE SAME STORY and that story was that this unit was for sale at $150 with 3-years of service.

I am amazed that consumers were somehow suppose to figure out that this was a mistake and not just a heavily-discounted sale item at Christmas time which is very common.
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post #203 of 424 Old 12-23-2003, 06:57 AM
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I've read all the posts in this thread and others. So my post won't add anything to the argument.

But I will say that I don't understand the logic behind those that say "even though the price said $XXX you should have realized you really should have been paying $YYY".

WHY?

I admit I stopped at two CC's the night this hit and didn't find one unit. I did check out the demos and also the price sheet. Both the 40 hour model and 80 hour model details clearly (in SMALL print) stated that activation was required.

I also stopped at a CompUSA two days later and found a 40 hour model and 80 hour model. After speaking with the salesperson and noting that they still had the old pricing of $499/$599, I was told that the prices had been reduced and still included activation.

That tells me that DNNA's memo about the change reached the retail outfits but that CompUSA didn't read the entire message to get it out to their sales team that the units now required activation.

Originally in a poll on this board I voted that I put the blame in DNNA. While I don't waver on this, more and more I am looking towards the retailers as the problem. God only knows why DNNA waited until December to make the change, even if they meant the change to go into effect AFTER Christmas, how stupid would that have been? But they have the ability to change their product, it is up to the retailers to get the changes implemented correctly. Which they obviously didn't.

The consumers who bought the product under misleading terms should not be hurt by this, let the retailers make good with DNNA.

Of course then they'll drop the line but what can you do?

One more point I wanted to make. The "Doom & Gloom" posts have already started. Now that ReplayTV is owned by DNNA, a subsidiary of D&M Holdings, a company that has been around for a LONG time, or at least their brand names have. I can not see them stopping the RTV line cold and giving us all doorstops. This company's brand reputation is great, and I really don't think they would piss off 75,000 customers like SonicBlue would have.

My $.02 not even worth that much.

-Jody

We are children of the future, maybe we're just passing through here, all depends on what you do here, under One Big Sky - Kansas
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post #204 of 424 Old 12-23-2003, 07:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jodeus
That tells me that DNNA's memo about the change reached the retail outfits but that CompUSA didn't read the entire message to get it out to their sales team that the units now required activation.
With all the people on this board and FW I can't believe that no one has gotten their hands on the actual memo DNNA sent to its retailers about the price drop and scanned it in. I want to know what is said, specifically when was the price change suppose to take affect and what changes retailers were suppose to make to signs & stickers. As others have said, it seems strange that so many different stores (online and retail) all dropped their price at the same day (12/17) unless DNNA told them too...

Anyone? Bueller?
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post #205 of 424 Old 12-23-2003, 07:10 AM
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December 9, 2003
Dear Circuit City,
We have dropped the price to $110 a unit. They are to be sold at $149.99 We are delivering 100 units to each one of your stores. Starting December 23 activation will be $299.99 for lifetime service, or $12.95 a month.

Love,
DNNA
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post #206 of 424 Old 12-23-2003, 07:16 AM
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My friend bought an 80 hour replay yesterday at CompUSA with the green sticker. He hooked it up and all seemed well, then he got an activation message. He called Replay and after telling them that he paid 599 for it, the rep said 'oh, good, because we're going to deactivate all the ones bought for 299'

I guess they expect to get all these serial numbers. I bought one yesterday, Sunday, and all seems fine, but my confidence is shot.
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post #207 of 424 Old 12-23-2003, 07:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jodeus
Now that ReplayTV is owned by DNNA, a subsidiary of D&M Holdings, a company that has been around for a LONG time, or at least their brand names have. I can not see them stopping the RTV line cold and giving us all doorstops. This company's brand reputation is great, and I really don't think they would piss off 75,000 customers like SonicBlue would have.

My $.02 not even worth that much.

-Jody
At this point, I would be very surprised if D&M ceased providing service to ReplayTv boxes. Had they done it right away, that would have been one thing, but once they chose to offer it, they are unlikely to stop now. That does not mean that they will keep supporting this product in any other way.

Based on what we have heard they have eliminated most everyone that was employed by ReplayTv and moved many of those who remain to Indiana to work on Escient. While this may mean they still care about this product space, it is also likely that they have given up on this brand name. Only time will tell.

/carmi
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post #208 of 424 Old 12-23-2003, 07:47 AM
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The attached gif file ?
I don't see any file, although I am still on my first pot of coffee and could have looked past it.
-Jerry
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post #209 of 424 Old 12-23-2003, 08:06 AM
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Originally posted by majortom
While this may mean they still care about this product space, it is also likely that they have given up on this brand name. Only time will tell.
This might not be a bad thing, especially if Replay leaves a bad first impression with recipients of gifted 55xx units that end up deactivated.

It's not like Replay was a househould name either...I know I always have to say "it's like a TiVo". Maybe we're all better off with the next Replay being branded an Escient.

ReplayTV...the Firestone of PVRs. ;)
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post #210 of 424 Old 12-23-2003, 08:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Just re-stating a couple of points late here in the thread:

Stickers: Yes, it is true that the green stickers stating activation was included were put on the boxes *purposefully* by Replay. However, it is also true that, as a condition for changing the retail price to the lower prices, the retailers were supposed to either remove those stickers or sticker over them, and note clearly that activation was not included. The retailers happily complied with the price change, but in some cases (not all) did not follow through with the packaging or other changes required. Obviously no one could have changed the info inside the box, but the customers were to be clearly notified that activation was not included.

I believe that there is plenty of precedence for selling items at terms contrary to the packaging. For instance, I have seen stores that sell food items in packaging that promise "free CDs" or "toy inside", but it is all being sold at a discount because the boxes don't have these items, the manufacturer had more packaging than free toys. Clearly, packaging is not the only determining factor. While DNNA clearly deserves some blame for not managing this transition properly, the stores also clearly mis-represented what they were selling.

I've never said that it's the fault of the customer at all. What I've said was that a large portion of the indignant knew quite well that they were trying to get something for nothing. That leaves plenty of room for the people who were legitimately confused.

And as for people who classified the dropping of the interoperability promise as an earlier "screwup", you clearly don't know the facts. Sorry, it's a sore spot for me when the messenger gets shot, especially the lengths Replay went through to try and find real solutions for users. Replay will always be the goat for some people.

Remember, it's just television...
Planet Replay: http://www.planetreplay.com
Do you VUDU? http://www.planetvudu.com
jleavens is offline  
Closed Thread ReplayTV & Showstopper PVRs

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