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post #181 of 774 Old 03-27-2010, 02:52 PM
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I wanted to ask if I can get by with a couple of UPS units to solve my problem.

I'm renting. No "whole house" stuff, please.

I'm not so worried about lightning strikes.

I am worried about the power flickering on and off which happens somewhat regularly. Sometimes there are brownouts. Sometimes it goes out for a second or two, then back on, then back off, two or three times in quick succession. I think sometimes there are spikes that damage things; I have a couple of devices that have gone dead after a flicker episode.

I'd like to put my more valuable equipment on regular UPS. At work everything is on APC SmartUPS units. I can buy these things at very low cost. Will they be sufficient to prevent damage from the symptoms I described?
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post #182 of 774 Old 03-27-2010, 03:18 PM
 
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Originally Posted by sphinx99 View Post

I'm not so worried about lightning strikes.
I am worried about the power flickering on and off which happens somewhat regularly. Sometimes there are brownouts. Sometimes it goes out for a second or two, then back on, then back off, two or three times in quick succession. I think sometimes there are spikes that damage things; ...

That is not a spike. Brownouts are a voltage drop. Surges are spikes that must overwhelm hundreds and thousands of volt protection already inside appliances. Two completely different electrical anomalies.

Voltage variation is harmful to refrigerators, air conditioners, and washing machines - motorized appliances. Therefore the utility must keep variations close to 5%.

Normal voltage to electronics is when incandescent lamps dim even to 50% intensity. Electronics have always been required to be that robust. And international design standards state that all low voltages must cause no damage. A 1970 design standard was this blunt in charts. The entire low voltage are (from 120 volts down to zero) has this phrase in capital letters: "No Damage Region".

If utility voltages are dropping that low, then you need the UPS on refrigerator and other motorized appliances.

Now, view the output of a typical 120 volt UPS. Two 200 volts square waves with a spike of up to 270 volts between those square waves. This power can be harmful to power strip protectors and small electric motors. Since electronics are so robust, even that 'dirty' electricity is ideal power to every electronics. Again, electronics have always been required to be that robust.

So what are you trying to protect from? The UPS has only one purpose. To provide temporary power when voltage drops this low - incandescent bulbs at less than 50% intensity.

Is power loss harmful? Power loss from the power switch, yanking the plug, or a neighborhood blackout is (to electronics) exactly same. For example, when does every disk drive first learn about power off? When it sees DC power dropping which is long (milliseconds) after AC power is lost. Disk drives are never informed in advance that power will turn off. To every disk drive, all power offs appear exactly same.

So again, which component needs protection from power cycling? Power loss and low voltage is only destructive to electronics in urban myths. Even lesser voltage drops are harmful to motorized appliances which is why utilities maintain voltage or completely cut off power.
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post #183 of 774 Old 03-27-2010, 03:29 PM
 
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Originally Posted by sphinx99 View Post

At work everything is on APC SmartUPS units. I can buy these things at very low cost. Will they be sufficient to prevent damage from the symptoms I described?

UPSes are made so cheap that a replacement battery may cost as much as the entire UPS. A spike too tiny to harm an electronic power supply can sometimes destroy that UPS power supply. It is electricity. That spike confronts both simultaneously. The UPS does nothing for hardware protection. Does not even claim that protection in numeric specs.

A UPS is made as cheap as possible to only provide temporary power during a blackout. Time to save data. A UPS inside every laptop performs same functions. But a majority have heard myths - did not first read spec numbers. Therefore assume a UPS somehow 'cleans' power. Good. What does it 'clean'?

'Dirtiest' electricity seen by the appliance? Numbers in the previous post. A UPS in battery backup mode - 200 volt square waves... Even Intel ATX specs required computers to withstand 1000 volts spikes without damage.

That UPS built as cheap as possible to perform one function - provide temporary power during a blackout. To provide extremely 'dirty' power that can be harmful to small electric motors and is ideal for electronics. Because it is made a cheap as possible.
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post #184 of 774 Old 03-28-2010, 04:16 PM
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Quote:


Quote:
Originally Posted by sphinx99 View Post

I wanted to ask if I can get by with a couple of UPS units to solve my problem.

You probably don't need the UPS units. I would look into the situation below.

Quote:


I am worried about the power flickering on and off which happens somewhat regularly. Sometimes there are brownouts. Sometimes it goes out for a second or two, then back on, then back off, two or three times in quick succession. I think sometimes there are spikes that damage things; I have a couple of devices that have gone dead after a flicker episode.

This description sounds like the operation of a utility recloser. A recloser is typically installed on the overhead medium voltage system to 'clear' feeder faults by opening and closing a number of times to try and burn any offending material free (material = tree branch, small animal, etc.). If the material can not be burned away, the recloser is generally programmed to 'lock-out' and drop the downstream feeder power. I would contact the local utility to determine the cause of multiple operations of the recloser. It is probably a utility problem and needs to be mitigated by them.

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I'd like to put my more valuable equipment on regular UPS. At work everything is on APC SmartUPS units. I can buy these things at very low cost. Will they be sufficient to prevent damage from the symptoms I described?

If you feel safer installing a UPS for some of your equipment, then do it. You probably don't need one for the majority of electronic equipment though.

My Home Theater Site:

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post #185 of 774 Old 03-29-2010, 07:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sphinx99 View Post

I wanted to ask if I can get by with a couple of UPS units to solve my problem.

I'm renting. No "whole house" stuff, please.

I'm not so worried about lightning strikes.

I am worried about the power flickering on and off which happens somewhat regularly. Sometimes there are brownouts. Sometimes it goes out for a second or two, then back on, then back off, two or three times in quick succession. I think sometimes there are spikes that damage things; I have a couple of devices that have gone dead after a flicker episode.

I'd like to put my more valuable equipment on regular UPS. At work everything is on APC SmartUPS units. I can buy these things at very low cost. Will they be sufficient to prevent damage from the symptoms I described?

Like what the others have said, but
If your talking a DVR [didital video recorder]
100% absolutley, get one
Even the smallest voltage change can send it off and you can loose your guide data and recordings

I like the APC with the digital display [I think ES1300 and up]
A 2 day storm gave me the same issues you describe, looked at the display and showed 9 events, can hear it click on and off,on my smaller 550 but doesn't have display, never even noticed any picture glitches at all on either set

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post #186 of 774 Old 04-06-2010, 08:20 AM
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looking at this one for my home theater:

http://www.amazon.com/APC-Back-UPS-W...d=L5CWNB74KCZE

it's the RS model APC. Will be hooking up my 50" Pio, Elite A/V Receiver, Tivo Premiere, PS3, Xbox 360, Wii, Docsis 3.0 Modem, and Wireless Router.

Any thoughts? Seems like the best for the money. I just want my system to keep running through a power dip or spike. If the power goes out completely for awhile and I'm home, I can shut down gracefully. My Tivo will then still have lots of power to keep recording.
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post #187 of 774 Old 04-06-2010, 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted by b_scott View Post

Any thoughts? Seems like the best for the money. I just want my system to keep running through a power dip or spike. If the power goes out completely for awhile and I'm home, I can shut down gracefully. My Tivo will then still have lots of power to keep recording.

The only issue would be if you were running all or most of them at once
If you spike over the 800 watts, the "overage" alarm will beep

My 50 Panny Plaz, Denon AVR and DVR will sometimes hit the 700's [have the 1300/750w] and set the alarm. with brightly lit scenes and high volumes

If AV equip is on, then would only have a few mins? of backup
If all off, probably close to an hr

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post #188 of 774 Old 04-06-2010, 04:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sphinx99 View Post

I'd like to put my more valuable equipment on regular UPS. At work everything is on APC SmartUPS units. I can buy these things at very low cost. Will they be sufficient to prevent damage from the symptoms I described?

Good question. I use SmartUPS units on my servers in the basement. I have been meaning to add a non-MOV based surge protector (SurgeX / Zero Surge / Brick Wall) ahead of them.
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post #189 of 774 Old 04-06-2010, 04:41 PM
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Originally Posted by westom View Post

UPSes are made so cheap that a replacement battery may cost as much as the entire UPS. A spike too tiny to harm an electronic power supply can sometimes destroy that UPS power supply. It is electricity. That spike confronts both simultaneously. The UPS does nothing for hardware protection. Does not even claim that protection in numeric specs.

A UPS is made as cheap as possible to only provide temporary power during a blackout. Time to save data. A UPS inside every laptop performs same functions. But a majority have heard myths - did not first read spec numbers. Therefore assume a UPS somehow 'cleans' power. Good. What does it 'clean'?

'Dirtiest' electricity seen by the appliance? Numbers in the previous post. A UPS in battery backup mode - 200 volt square waves... Even Intel ATX specs required computers to withstand 1000 volts spikes without damage.

That UPS built as cheap as possible to perform one function - provide temporary power during a blackout. To provide extremely 'dirty' power that can be harmful to small electric motors and is ideal for electronics. Because it is made a cheap as possible.

Clearly you're not at all familiar with the APC SmartUPS products. Perhaps you should have taken a minute or two to familiarize yourself with them prior to going off on a totally off base rant that doesn't apply in the least to them.
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post #190 of 774 Old 04-08-2010, 01:40 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post

Clearly you're not at all familiar with the APC SmartUPS products.

That post identified APC products - using facts based in various APC specs. Did you forget to post spec numbers to support your claim? Yes, because those numbers do not exist. Yes, because you forgot to do what only responsible posters do. That APC provides near-zero hardware protection. Just large enough that a majority will believe it is 100% protection.

APC UPS made so cheaply that a replacement battery may cost as much as the entire UPS. Post spec numbers if you have doubts. You cannot post what APC will not even claim.

View specs for APC Back-UPS RS, 865 Watts. Surge protection is how many joules? 340 means only 115 and never more than 230 joules do protection. How does 115 joules absorb a typically destructive surge that is hundreds of thousands of joules? It doesn't. What APC says in numbers: a surge too tiny to damage appliances may destroy that APC protector circuit.

No problem. Ill informed consumers believe protector failure is normal. Reality: properly sized MOV protectors do not fail. APC numbers say surges too small to even harm appliances can destroy that APC protection circuit. Why does APC make those joules numbers so hard to find? Because that APC provides near-zero protection. If you don't read numbers, then propaganda can promote hardware protection myths. Obviously, so many never read the numbers. Count how many recommend that mythical hardware protection.

APC's spec numbers say it only does one thing - provide temporary power during blackouts and extreme sags. Nothing more. Near-zero hardware protection means APC can claim 100% surge protection in sales brochures. Propaganda and hearsay to Stereodude somehow is a fact? He is not the only one. Quoted are APC's numbers - near zero protection.
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post #191 of 774 Old 04-08-2010, 02:38 PM
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Keep on grinding that axe. You'll get it sharp sooner or later.

I didn't say anything about the surge protection capability of the SmartUPS units. I took exception to your rampant mischaracterization of the units themselves.
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UPSes are made so cheap that a replacement battery may cost as much as the entire UPS.

False. For example, a SUA1000 cost ~$375 shipped new. Replacement batteries are less than $100 shipped. Those are not almost the same.
Quote:


A UPS in battery backup mode - 200 volt square waves...

Also false. The SmartUPS units have true sine wave output.
Quote:


That UPS built as cheap as possible to perform one function - provide temporary power during a blackout. To provide extremely 'dirty' power that can be harmful to small electric motors and is ideal for electronics. Because it is made a cheap as possible.

So, basically you're just making things up. The SmartUPS units are not a bare minimum UPS. They do not provide extremely 'dirty' power. They're enterprise grade products. They're not made as cheaply as possible.
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post #192 of 774 Old 04-08-2010, 02:46 PM
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somehow this thread didn't show in my subscribed threads the past few days. I went ahead and bought the 1500VA one yesterday, it's at home waiting for me. I'll let you guys know how it stands up.
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post #193 of 774 Old 04-08-2010, 08:19 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post

The SmartUPS units have true sine wave output.

UPS that outputs a true sine wave also lists a Total Harmonic Distortion number or something equivalent. A 120 volt UPS that outputs 200 volts square waves is also called a sine wave. And yes, they did not lie. They just forgot to include numbers for how dirty that sine wave really is.

If a SmartUPS is truly a sine wave output, then you have and post numbers for that sine wave. Making claims without numbers is how lies are created. If it is truly a sine wave, then it says so in the spec numbers. Where are those numbers?

BTW, why is the dirtiest UPS power also perfectly ideal? All electronics are so robust that a 270 volt spike sometimes seen from UPS outputs is also perfectly ideal to 120 volt electronics. UPS power that can be harmful to small electric motors and power strip protectors. But ideal to electronics because electronics are required to be so robust.
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post #194 of 774 Old 04-09-2010, 04:25 AM
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You really are clueless... A square wave is a sine wave?
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Originally Posted by APC View Post

APC's Back-UPS®, Back-UPS Office®, Back-UPS Pro®, and PowerCell® all output a "stepped-approximated" sine wave when the unit is On Battery. While this kind of waveform is ideal for computers and computer-related equipment, it may not be compatible for other types of loads like motor loads. If you are using non-computer loads with one of the above-mentioned UPSs, consult the manufacturer's specifications to determine if the equipment can run off of a "stepped wave". If it can't, then it will require a UPS that outputs a pure sine wave when On Battery. APC UPS models that do output a Pure Sine Wave include: Smart-UPS®, Matrix-UPS®, and the Symmetra® Power Array®.

Here's a scope plot of the waveform that comes out of an unloaded SU700:



That's the oddest looking 200V square wave I've ever seen.

Here's the waveform with a load on the UPS:



It's still a really odd looking 200V square wave.

So now that we've completely proven you have absolutely no clue what you're talking about, it's time for you to put up or shut up.

kthxbye
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post #195 of 774 Old 04-09-2010, 05:36 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post

It's still a really odd looking 200V square wave.

If output is when the UPS is not plugged into the wall, then reactive loading creates distortion in the 'loaded' UPS picture. No distortion exists. Did you unplug the UPS during your test? Those waveforms are typical of a UPS connected to AC mains.

Meanwhile, you intentionally distort what I said so that you could insult me. You are posting so much like the typically naive poster who only posts insults - and still refuses to post manufacture spec numbers. I said *typical* UPS. And did so without insult to what is becoming obvious only a technicians intelligence level. Or maybe you could learn to post without insults. Typical UPS is not $300+.

What you ignored was my point. All electronics are so robust that the ***typical*** UPS output (that is often a square wave) is the best electricity to all electronics. Maybe the logic was too complicated. But you must read and understand the entire paragraph to grasp the point. All electronics are so robust that even the ///typical/// UPS output (even with a spike of up to 270 volts) is ideal power to electronics. Harmful to small electric motors and power strip protectors. But even square waves are perfectly ideal for electronics. Do you think you might grasp the entire paragraph rather than taking one sentence out of context?

Your output is typical of all UPSes (even the ***typical UPS***) when its power cord is connected to AC mains. Reactive loading from a computer would have distorted top of the AC waveform. It didn't. So your experiment is suspect.

Where is that UPS spec number for sine waves? UPS that actually does 'pure sine waves' provides those numbers. Where is that number? Why do you do complicated pictures when the manufacturer's spec numbers means so much more - and is so easy? Where is the spec number for that UPS? Why are spec numbers, routine from better UPS manufacturers, not provided with your UPS?

Further reality. That UPS and those pictures do not demonstrate any surge protection. 'Dirty' output from a typical UPS makes this point: even 'dirty' UPS power is perfectly ideal for electronics BECAUSE electronics are so robust. The effective protector (or UPS) is about protection from the rare surge that can overwhelm protection inside every appliance.

Why are you arguing about pure sine waves? That was not the point. The point: electronics are so robust that 'dirty' UPS power (even with a 270 volt spike) is ideal power to electronics. And those pictures are unnecessary if you only posted manufacturer’s THD numbers. Why no THD numbers? Why do you again quote where lies are legal - a sales brochure? Honest posters only quote numeric specs - not sales propaganda. Maybe because those numbers also say nothing about surge protection? Did you forget the topic again? Or should I say near-zero (mythical) protection - because that is what manufacturer spec numbers say.
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post #196 of 774 Old 04-10-2010, 10:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by westom View Post

If output is when the UPS is not plugged into the wall, then reactive loading creates distortion in the 'loaded' UPS picture. No distortion exists. Did you unplug the UPS during your test? Those waveforms are typical of a UPS connected to AC mains.

They're not my tests, but yes they were unplugged from the mains.
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Meanwhile, you intentionally distort what I said so that you could insult me.

I'm not intentionally distorting anything. You said things that were blatantly false and are now trying to get into semantics instead of man'ing up and admitting you were wrong.
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You are posting so much like the typically naive poster who only posts insults

You put your own foot in your mouth. I just pointed it out.
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and still refuses to post manufacture spec numbers.

APC doesn't list THD for the SmartUPS units. I'm not refusing to post anything.
Quote:


I said *typical* UPS. And did so without insult to what is becoming obvious only a technicians intelligence level. Or maybe you could learn to post without insults. Typical UPS is not $300+.

You did not say *typical*. You quoted a section specifically referring to APC SmartUPS and went a little misinformed tirade about them.
Quote:


Your output is typical of all UPSes (even the ***typical UPS***) when its power cord is connected to AC mains. Reactive loading from a computer would have distorted top of the AC waveform. It didn't. So your experiment is suspect.

The results are not suspect. You just don't like them because they disprove your mistake filled diatribe.
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Where is that UPS spec number for sine waves?

You'll have to ask APC.
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UPS that actually does 'pure sine waves' provides those numbers.

Apparently not. These do pure sines waves, and yet don't provide a THD number.
Quote:


Where is that number?

Ask APC.
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Why do you do complicated pictures when the manufacturer's spec numbers means so much more - and is so easy?

Because I have pictures proving the shape of the output waveform, but I don't have a spec that APC doesn't give.
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Where is the spec number for that UPS?

Ask APC.
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Why are spec numbers, routine from better UPS manufacturers, not provided with your UPS?

Ask APC.
Quote:


Why are you arguing about pure sine waves?

Because you made factual errors when describing the output of APC SmartUPS units.
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That was not the point.

Then you shouldn't have made it one.
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And those pictures are unnecessary if you only posted manufacturer’s THD numbers.

I'm glad you think they're unnecessary. They still prove you wrong.
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Why no THD numbers?

Ask APC.
Quote:


Why do you again quote where lies are legal - a sales brochure? Honest posters only quote numeric specs - not sales propaganda.

Except they're not lies or propaganda as I've proven.
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Maybe because those numbers also say nothing about surge protection?

I never said they did.
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Did you forget the topic again?

No, but apparently you did when you started spouting off lies about the waveform that comes out of the back of a UPS and are now unhappy someone pointed it out.
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post #197 of 774 Old 04-10-2010, 05:34 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post

They're not my tests, but yes they were unplugged from the mains.

If not your tests, then how do you know that UPS was unplugged? You don’t. Waveform says it was not unplugged. Without basic electrical knowledge, you did not even see what should have been obbious. You simply posted only what someone told you to believe.

Then posted nonsense with disparaging comments. And still not post even one manufacturer spec number. "Go ask APC" simply confirms you cannot even read specification numbers. You cannot post what you do not even understand. So you reply nasty.

Output from a typical UPS is some of the ‘dirtiest’ power an appliance will see. A typical 120 volt UPS may output two 200 volt square waves with a spike of up to 270 volts between those square waves. See? Numbers.

Hearsay describe this as clean power when basics are not learned. It was called a modified sine wave, a stepped sine wave, or some other sine wave. Then the naïve relabel it as a 'pure' sine wave. Why does APC not provide specs such as THD? Then everyone would know it is not a pure sine wave. Why did you not notice the missing THD number? Electricity so 'dirty' as to be harmful to small electric motors or power strip protectors (which is why they recommend no power strip protector on a UPS output). Even that electricity is ideal power – because electronics are so robust.

Appliances already have protection so superior that a 120 volt UPS with square waves and a 200+ volt spike is not harmful.

Stereodude was asked to supply manufacturer spec numbers. He could not even do that. He has no idea what those numbers mean. So he does what the naive routinely do. He says, "Ask APC." How curious. APC does not even claim what Stereodude posted. APC does not even claim protection from typically destructive surges. Only Stereodude invented that myth. A myth provided without any numbers. No numbers is the first indication of a lie. So he gets nasty to mask those missing numbers and his missing technical knowledge. He did not even do those sine wave pictures. But somehow knows how they were taken. Nasty because he backup anything with citations, manufacturer specs, and fundamental numbers. He does what so many myth purveyors do. Attack the messenger when caught lying.

The OP asked for protector recommendations. A majority without any electrical knowledge will recommend profit centers - ie power strips. A $3 power strip with some ten cent protector parts selling for $40 or $150. Or recommend a UPS that claims near-zero protection.

An effective protector always and only does one thing. Where does energy dissipate? An effective protector always makes a short connection to earth. Essential to protection is that always required - always - short connection to single point earth ground. Then massive protection already inside every appliance is not overwhelmed. Nothing new. Engineers knew this even 100 years ago before advertising and myths replaced science and knowledge. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.
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post #198 of 774 Old 04-10-2010, 07:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by westom View Post

If not your tests, then how do you know that UPS was unplugged? You don’t. Waveform says it was not unplugged. Without basic electrical knowledge, you did not even see what should have been obbious. You simply posted only what someone told you to believe.

Sometimes when you're stuck in a deep hole it's best to stop digging. It is most definitely unplugged. link
Quote:
Then posted nonsense with disparaging comments. And still not post even one manufacturer spec number. "Go ask APC" simply confirms you cannot even read specification numbers. You cannot post what you do not even understand. So you reply nasty.

Again, APC doesn't not list THD. You have a total and utter reading comprehension problem. For those people following along at home and laughing hysterically at Westom's hitting rock bottom and starting to dig. Here's a link to APC's specs. Note the lack of a THD spec.
Quote:
Output from a typical UPS is some of the ‘dirtiest’ power an appliance will see. A typical 120 volt UPS may output two 200 volt square waves with a spike of up to 270 volts between those square waves. See? Numbers.

Still not true. Most output a stepped square wave like this:



However, I bet if you keep repeating your lies enough someone else might believe them. Clearly it's working for you.
Quote:
Hearsay describe this as clean power when basics are not learned. It was called a modified sine wave, a stepped sine wave, or some other sine wave. Then the naïve relabel it as a 'pure' sine wave. Why does APC not provide specs such as THD? Then everyone would know it is not a pure sine wave.

You're still wrong. I've proven it and you've got your head in the sand. APC says, "Smart-UPS feature a 16-segment LED display, extended range automatic voltage regulation (AVR), and pure sine wave output on battery" Yup, clearly I made up the 'pure' part.
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Stereodude was asked to supply manufacturer spec numbers.

I can't give a THD spec that APC doesn't give. I've linked to the specs that APC does give.
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He could not even do that. He has no idea what those numbers mean.

I know what Total Harmonic Distortion is.
Quote:
So he does what the naive routinely do. He says, "Ask APC."

Yes, it's naive to expect the person demanding unlisted information to call the manufacturer and request it.
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How curious.

The only thing curious here is how your able to be so blind to reality.
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APC does not even claim what Stereodude posted.

APC claims a pure sine wave output. I've showed the graph of it. I see you're still unable to read...
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Only Stereodude invented that myth.

Ahh... the "myth" that's not a myth. The same one that I didn't invent either
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A myth provided without any numbers.

Numbers or not, it's still not a myth. Unless you've redefined "myth" to mean a fact you're clueless about.
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No numbers is the first indication of a lie.

Nah, words coming from you are the first indication of a lie. You're the one who hasn't provided any proof or evidence.
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So he gets nasty to mask those missing numbers and his missing technical knowledge.

Yes, clearly you're the one with the numbers and all the knowledge. AVSforum is lucky to have you!!!
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He did not even do those sine wave pictures. But somehow knows how they were taken.

Because unlike you I know how to read and comprehend. I read how the measurements were taken. I have no doubt you'll shortly claim that Jesse Kovach didn't know what he was doing though.
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Nasty because he backup anything with citations, manufacturer specs, and fundamental numbers. He does what so many myth purveyors do. Attack the messenger when caught lying.

The only person lying here is YOU! You have shown an innate ability to lie, misrepresent, misunderstand, misconstrue, deny, and pretend. Keep up the good work. I'm pretty sure you have a future in politics.
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post #199 of 774 Old 04-10-2010, 08:12 PM
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wow.

so, haven't plugged it in yet. Actually I think I'll leave it boxed until we move in two weeks, easier to move that way.
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post #200 of 774 Old 04-11-2010, 12:01 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post

You have shown an innate ability to lie, misrepresent, misunderstand, misconstrue, deny, and pretend. Keep up the good work. I'm pretty sure you have a future in politics.

Those with the least education will then post nasty and angry replies. Especially to deny falling for a scam.

That stepped sine wave - sometimes called a modified sine wave - is nothing more than a sum of sine waves. Obvious from Fourier Series taught in high school calculus. Since the manufacturer hopes nobody will bother to ask damning questions, then sales brochures relabeled a "stepped square wave" as some type of sine wave.

Technically, they are not lying. Technically, had Stereodude learn this stuff, then that modified sine wave is a traditional output from most UPSes. AND that output is considered perfectly ideal electricity to electronics. Again, electronics are required to be that robust as to make dirtiest electricity from a UPS irrelevant. BTW, view his stepped output. That 120 volt output is peaking at 300 volts. And yes, electronics are required to be so robust as to make that 300 volt peak irrelevant.

Why can Stereodude not provide THD numbers? Any UPS manufacturer that had a 'pure sine wave' output would post those THD numbers in the largest font possible. APC does not provide THD numbers because a 'pure sine wave' is not that 'pure'. So dirty as to best not provide the THD number. Only pure enough to get people trained by sales brochures to *believe*. And to be angry when reality arrives.

b_scott - your UPS has only one function. To provides temporary power during a blackout or extreme brownout. Extreme brownout is incandescent bulbs at less than 50% intensity. All electronics are required to work perfectly normal and ideal even when bulbs dim to 50% intensity. Electronics are required to be that robust.

Low voltage does not cause hardware failure. That UPS has one function - to protect unsaved data. Surge protection? It claims near zero protection. See its joules number. Near zero. And protection from a type of surge that typically does not cause hardware damage.

The OP was asking for effective surge protection. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. That UPS does not claim protection. And does not have that dedicated wire for the always necessary 'less than 10 foot' connection to earth. It cannot connect destructive energy to earth. So how does it make surge energy magically disappear? It doesn't. The UPS is promoted by myths. Others who were scammed will post nasty replies - and no relevant spec numbers.

How robust are your entertainment electronics? See that stepped sine wave? Even peaking at 300 volts. Even that is perfectly ideal power because all electronics contain massive surge protection. Protection that may be overwhelmed if you do not earth a destructive surge BEFORE it can enter the building. Only more responsible companies provide effective solutions with the always required short connection to earth. A superior solution that also costs about $1 per protected appliance. Effective because it does make that short connection to single point earth ground. And is not recommended by demeaning slurs.
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post #201 of 774 Old 04-11-2010, 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted by westom View Post

Those with the least education will then post nasty and angry replies. Especially to deny falling for a scam.

That stepped sine wave - sometimes called a modified sine wave - is nothing more than a sum of sine waves. Obvious from Fourier Series taught in high school calculus. Since the manufacturer hopes nobody will bother to ask damning questions, then sales brochures relabeled a "stepped square wave" as some type of sine wave.

Technically, they are not lying. Technically, had Stereodude learn this stuff, then that modified sine wave is a traditional output from most UPSes. AND that output is considered perfectly ideal electricity to electronics. Again, electronics are required to be that robust as to make dirtiest electricity from a UPS irrelevant. BTW, view his stepped output. That 120 volt output is peaking at 300 volts. And yes, electronics are required to be so robust as to make that 300 volt peak irrelevant.

Why can Stereodude not provide THD numbers? Any UPS manufacturer that had a 'pure sine wave' output would post those THD numbers in the largest font possible. APC does not provide THD numbers because a 'pure sine wave' is not that 'pure'. So dirty as to best not provide the THD number. Only pure enough to get people trained by sales brochures to *believe*. And to be angry when reality arrives.

Ok, lets start really simple...

Here are waveforms captured by an independent 3rd party. link

Here's what comes from straight from the wall from Potomac Electric Power Company:



Here's what comes from an APC SmartUPS 700 running on batteries with an 80% load (big computer and monitor):



Oddly enough. They're nearly the same with the waveform from the UPS looking slightly better.

One of two things is true. You tell me which.

1) Potomac Electric Power Company is sending out to all their customers what you call a "modified sine wave" as verified by an independent 3rd party. The APC SmartUPS 700 also outputs a "modified sine wave".

2) The APC SmartUPS 700 was tested by an independent 3rd party to output a sine wave equivalent to what comes from Potomac Electric Power Company (and not a modified sine wave).

I look forward to your refusal to answer this simple question and further talking in circles.
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post

Ok, lets start really simple...

You're going to have to go to his house with your UPS and 'scope and show him.

My Home Theater Site:

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post #203 of 774 Old 04-11-2010, 06:54 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post

I look forward to your refusal to answer this simple question and further talking in circles.

Why do you continue to argue the irrelevant? Your own stepped sine wave demonstrates what all electronics must withstand without damage. 120 volt electronic designs even make 'dirty' power from typical UPS irrelevant. Why would anyone waste $500 on a 'pure sine wave' UPS when all electronics call a less than $100 stepped sine wave UPS perfectly ideal power?

You have provided exactly what I am talking about. That stepped sine wave or modified sine wave - electricity that can be harmful to small electric motors and power strip protectors - is ideal power to all electronics. Because electronics are that robust. Stereodude - you proved my point. Why are you pissing over nonsense 'pure' sine waves? When do you get back on something relevant - the topic?

Electronics are so robust that all but the rare and destructive transient is made irrelevant. What protects from a typically destructive transient? No APC or any other plug-in UPS claims that protection. Near zero protector circuit does what? May even be damaged if powered by another UPS. What kind of protection is that? Ineffective.

Hk Chuck demonstrated an example of an effective solution. Thousands exist from so many more responsible companies. A Cutler-Hammer solution even sells in Lowes and Home Depot for less than $50. Protection essential to even protect bathroom GFCIs and electronics in a stove. Protection that no APC or other plug-in protector does or claims to provide - for how many times more money is that APC?

Waveforms from a typical UPS can even be destructive to power strip protectors. Might even harm another UPS "protector circuit". But is perfectly ideal to electronics because protection already inside electronics is that robust. Electronics protection that can be overwhelmed if one 'whole house' protector is not properly earthed.
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post #204 of 774 Old 04-12-2010, 04:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by westom View Post

Why do you continue to argue the irrelevant? Your own stepped sine wave demonstrates what all electronics must withstand without damage. 120 volt electronic designs even make 'dirty' power from typical UPS irrelevant. Why would anyone waste $500 on a 'pure sine wave' UPS when all electronics call a less than $100 stepped sine wave UPS perfectly ideal power?

You have provided exactly what I am talking about. That stepped sine wave or modified sine wave - electricity that can be harmful to small electric motors and power strip protectors - is ideal power to all electronics. Because electronics are that robust. Stereodude - you proved my point. Why are you pissing over nonsense 'pure' sine waves? When do you get back on something relevant - the topic?

Electronics are so robust that all but the rare and destructive transient is made irrelevant. What protects from a typically destructive transient? No APC or any other plug-in UPS claims that protection. Near zero protector circuit does what? May even be damaged if powered by another UPS. What kind of protection is that? Ineffective.

Hk Chuck demonstrated an example of an effective solution. Thousands exist from so many more responsible companies. A Cutler-Hammer solution even sells in Lowes and Home Depot for less than $50. Protection essential to even protect bathroom GFCIs and electronics in a stove. Protection that no APC or other plug-in protector does or claims to provide - for how many times more money is that APC?

Waveforms from a typical UPS can even be destructive to power strip protectors. Might even harm another UPS "protector circuit". But is perfectly ideal to electronics because protection already inside electronics is that robust. Electronics protection that can be overwhelmed if one 'whole house' protector is not properly earthed.

Thanks... I'll take your refusal to answer the question as an implicit admission that you were wrong about the waveform coming out of the back of APC SmartUPS units. Thanks for conceding the point in your own special way.

As for surge protection, you'll note that I recommended plugging them into a non-MOV based surge protector.
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post #205 of 774 Old 04-12-2010, 07:49 AM
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Originally Posted by westom View Post

b_scott - your UPS has only one function. To provides temporary power during a blackout or extreme brownout.

yup, that's what I want it for. Just want it to keep my stuff running during a black/brownout - so if i'm downloading/playing a game online I don't get booted off and have to deal with all that loss. Plus, my Tivo will keep running and recording - it takes 10 minutes to boot up.
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post #206 of 774 Old 04-12-2010, 04:23 PM
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I can barely believe that I spent over an hour reading each post in this thread only to discover that there are at least three people here who don't think much about at least one of the others and possibly more.

Whole house surge protection makes sense. Point of use protection might help. If either system is either improperly installed or inadequately grounded, they won't help and might actually hurt. Those are the facts and much of the rest of what has been posted here seems to be about something else altogether.

Are there any moderators out there?

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post #207 of 774 Old 04-13-2010, 08:37 AM
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Ignorance is a bliss!!
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post #208 of 774 Old 04-13-2010, 04:58 PM
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Are there any moderators out there?

Yes there are, but someone needs to report a post, we don't read every thread.

Time out.

Edit: I am reopening this as there is some good discussion going on here. But tone down the rhetoric.
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post #209 of 774 Old 09-29-2010, 04:01 PM
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A AVSForum member who is highly educated on this is BobL. Try to get him over here to explain why MOV's are not recommended.

SurgeX is used by sports stadiums, concert halls, Hollywood movie studios, NASA Hubble Space Telescope and the U.S. Government.

Most sports stadiums made over the last 5 to 7 years in the U.S. use SurgeX. The new Dallas Cowboys Stadium uses SurgeX, so does new Yankee Stadium, every Philadelphia professional sports venue. Carnegie Hall and the Kimmel Center in Philadelphia too. Paramount Studios etc.

It's not allowing me to post links on this thread for some reason. Please Google up: "Dallas Cowboys Stadium SurgeX" and you will see websites showing photos inside the booths of the stadium using SurgeX products.

For anyone to question the legitimacy of SurgeX products I would question their legitimacy and ask are you more educated and knowledgable than the people hired to setup the safety systems for these multi-million dollar projects. Why doesn't all the people who work on the projects above just go into a Best Buy, Walmart, Staples, Office Max and just buy a bunch of mov based products?
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post #210 of 774 Old 09-29-2010, 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted by oppopioneer View Post

SurgeX is used by sports stadiums, concert halls, Hollywood movie studios, NASA Hubble Space Telescope and the U.S. Government.

Most sports stadiums made over the last 5 to 7 years in the U.S. use SurgeX. The new Dallas Cowboys Stadium uses SurgeX, so does new Yankee Stadium, every Philadelphia professional sports venue. Carnegie Hall and the Kimmel Center in Philadelphia too. Paramount Studios etc.

Are you sure no MOVs are used in these places?

Would you please provide some proof that SurgeX is used to protect the Hubble Telescope.
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