Originally Posted by fuelie
In the 1st paragraph, you claim "professionals" state that surges can't be stopped, blocked, or absorbed. What professionals are you referring to? Are they electrical engineers with intimate knowledge of these devices ...
A SurgeX WILL "block" and "stop" a surge (dissipating the energy as a negligible amount of heat). That is a proven, substantiated fact, not theory or someone's opinion on a forum.
This electrical engineer with a few decades of design experience says your are either promoting a scam or have been taken in by the scam. But other professionals will be quoted.
First, where is a long list of spec numbers that supports your claims? Your posts are subjective. Few numbers imply trivial if any protection (discussed later).
It will 'block' and 'stop' a surge? Do you really believe what sales brochures tell you to believe? NIST (US government research agency) - also called professionals - say what protectors must do.
> You cannot really suppress a surge altogether, nor "arrest" it. What these protective
> devices do is neither suppress nor arrest a surge, but simply divert it to ground,
> where it can do no harm.
Despite your denials - professional state quite bluntly that a protector cannot 'stop', 'block', 'arrest', or 'absorb' surges. No effective protector does that. Why is Surgex contradicting professionals? Do you really hope a tiny filter will stop what three miles of sky could not? Damned if you do. Somehow your Surgex will 'suppress' or 'arrest' a surge? Nonsense. Somehow you know more than the NIST because you were told what to believe by Surgex sales brochures?
Why did you again ignore that safety ground wire? Another path for the surge to bypass your series mode filter. Or did Surgex forget to discuss that weakness so that you would ignore it? I asked it before. Why does that safety ground wire that bypasses a Surgex not carry the surge?
A series mode filter can provide supplementary protection. But is ineffective (and not used by professionals) when it is the only protector. Supplementary protection only after serious protection is earthed. Supplementary protection that is often is not necessary if a properly earthed protector is installed.
More from the NIST:
> A very important point to keep in mind is that your surge protector will work by
> diverting the surges to ground. The best surge protection in the world can be
> useless if grounding is not done properly.
NIST describes your Surgex: "can be useless if grounding is not done properly". Could it be any more blunt? A protector without earth ground has no place to harmlessly dissipate energy. Which should I believe? You who claim a small Surgex will store hundreds of thousands of joules? Or professionals who have been doing this stuff for 100 years with routine success. Which should I believe?
Having done this stuff, I go with the professionals. And I note more of your claims that contradict even basic electrical engineering concepts.
Where does energy get dissipated? If your Surgex can store all that energy, then slowly release it, well, you have just proven we can routinely store and use lightning. Funny how nobody has been able to capture that free energy. Surgex would not lie. Somehow it must store and slowly release that energy. We just forgot to tap that free energy? Why are we so ignorant and Surgex is so smart? Maybe Surgex can store energy that nobody else has been able to?
To store energy, that Surgex must conduct 20,000 amps incoming and outgoing. Or does your electricity flow with only an incoming path and no outgoing path? Even in second grade science, electricity did not work that way. Where is the outgoing path for that 20,000 amps? No outgoing path means the Surgex cannot store any energy. Ironic. The outgoing path is through the 'so called' protected appliance. What kind of protection is that? Mythical.
Let's see. Orange Count FL suffered surge damage to emergency response equipment. So they installed a series mode filter? Of course not. Instead they consulted professionals. Simple solution. Upgrade what provides surge protection. Fix what dissipates a surge - harmlessly. Earth ground:http://www.psihq.com/AllCopper.htm
From QST magazine (the voice of the ARRL) in a July 2002 article entitled "Lightning Protection for the Amateur Radio Station":
> The purpose of the ground connection is to take the energy arriving on
>the antenna feed line cables and control lines (and to a lesser extent
> on the power and telephone lines) and give it a path back to the
> earth, our energy sink.
Even amateur radio operators understand what is necessary for protection. How do you contradict reams of professionals? By typically ignoring facts. By even ignoring a safety ground that bypasses your series mode protector. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. But somehow Surgex will contradict professionals (and the NIST) to perform miracles?
Sun Microsystems needs effective protection for server rooms. Do they install series mode protectors? Of course not. Sun says that energy must not even enter the building. From Sun's installation guide:
> Section 6.4.7 Lightning Protection:
> Lightning surges cannot be stopped, but they can be diverted. The
> plans for the data center should be thoroughly reviewed to identify
> any paths for surge entry into the data center. Surge arrestors ...
> should divert the power of the surge by providing a path to ground
> for the surge energy.
Why do professionals say that? Professionals have understood this stuff for over 100 years. How many decades is your design experience? You did not even know what the NIST said. With basic knowledge, you would have known that without reading the NIST. Insufficient knowledge is further apparent in a Monster Cable myth.
Monster Cable has a long history of sell scams. Monster takes a grocery store protector circuit selling for $7. Adds some fancy paint. Sells it for $150. And then you call it:
> ... a so called "good quality" $200+or more, Monster MOV surge suppressor
Are you that poorly informed? If Monster is selling it, it must be a scam. Did you know speaker wire also has polarity? Monster said so. Therefore Monster Cable could also sell $7 of speaker wire for $70 - and be recommended in posts that look so much like yours.
Let's view the few numbers you did provide. If a Surgex filter can stop a surge, you can tell us what its breakdown voltage is. Every device has a breakdown voltage. Yours only claims 6000 volts? So you tell us surges never exceed 6000 volts? Nonsense. Anything that would stop (or store) a surge means that device has the entire voltage on it. A basic concept from electrical engineering. Voltage will increase as necessary to blow through the stopping device. When was the last time lighting (or other destructive surges) was always less than 6000 volts?
It only stops 3000 amps? The average lightning strike is 20,000 amps. We install effective protection so that even direct lightning strikes cause no damage. No damage even to the protector. An effective 'whole house' protector - rated at least 50,000 amps - so that even direct lightning strikes cause no damage.
A 'whole house' protector costs about $1 per protected appliance. How much is that Surgex to only protect one appliance? $300? At what point does the myth also get expensive? $300 and it does not even withstand on average lightning strike? Those are your numbers. Somehow it will magically make surge energy just disappear? Show me any professional that makes that claim.
Does it somehow store a direct lightning strike; then make that energy slowly leak away? Congratulations. You just solved the energy crisis. Now we can absorb energy from all lightning strikes and slowly power the rest of the world. Yes, as long as junk science works.
> ...the farther away you get from the electrical panel, the
> higher the ground potential can become.
How curious. Where protection has been installed for 100 years to make even direct lighting strikes irrelevant - better protection means up to 50 meter separation between the protector and earth ground. That separation means even better protection. But it helps to first learn basic electrical concepts such as wire impedance. Without fundamental knowledge, you must believe what salesmen tell you to believe. Why do telcos - that must never have surge damage - want their electronics up to 50 meters separated from the protector. So your salesmen invented the GP myth? Or did you?
Effective protection means energy does not enter the building. Or did the professionals from Sun Microsystems lie? Once inside the building (with or without the Surgex), that energy will hunt destructively for earth ground. But then you just learned that from the NIST: "The best surge protection in the world can be useless if grounding is not done properly." Surgex has no earth ground. But it does have a safety ground so that surges can bypass the Surgex. Same safety ground has been cited repeatedly - and repeatedly ignored by you. Or maybe the Surgex rated for 3000 amps will somehow magically absorb 20,000 amps. After all, three miles of the best insulator could not stop it. But a silly little Surgex will?
Why do professionals always discuss earthing and lightning. Why do they not just plug in a magic solution from Surgex? Professionals deal in reality? Salesmen promote myths? Your numbers even define the Surgex as ineffective. Too small. Does not protect from the typically destructive surge. Costs 300 times more money. But it must be better only because you know so. And how many systems did you design to suffer direct lightning strikes without damage? Meanwhile, as stated previously, you are posting in direct contradiction what professionals have known for over 100 years.
We install protectors for direct lightning strikes. Other smaller transients are made irrelevant by protection already inside appliances AND by that 'whole house' protector. But you would spend $300 per protected appliance - and not protect from lightning? Just another reason to smell a scam. Somehow that electricity is incoming but no outgoing path? More smell of the scam. We install one 'whole house' protector - about $1 per protected appliance - to protect from direct lightning strikes. Also necessary to protect that Surgex rates only for 6000 volts or 3000 amps. Why then should we spend 300 times more money for the Surgex - that does not even protect from the typically destructive surge - lightning? Because we like to be scammed? Or because you told us to trust you. Clearly I was wasting a few decades learning this stuff. Next time I will wait for you to learn from the sales brochure.
If I really wanted to be scammed, I would buy your 'high quality' Monster Cable product. Even the NIST says why the Monster Cable is also ineffective. "The best surge protection in the world can be useless if grounding is not done properly." A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. But somehow the professionals are wrong and Surgex is right?
Please do not selectively reply. You recommended the Surgex. Your reply to every paragraph should be chock full of Surgex spec numbers. You made the claim. Then you can quote the numbers. Let's start with its breakdown voltage - that must be massively higher than 6000 volts. And that safety ground wire that somehow will not bypass the Surgex.
Others also have asked the same question. Where are your numbers?