Is Toggle bolting a LCD TV and mount OK? - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 49 Old 02-20-2011, 11:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Well, not really. But, there turned out to be A stud, that actually was pretty close to center! It took a lot of probing and a lot of testing with little nails, but I found it. There is so much dry wall plaster (added an additional 1/2" to the wall thickness) and the texture is uneven enough that my stud finder couldn't find it (or I need a new stud finder).

Anyways, the TV's are mounted and solid in the stud. It looks pretty cool. For the 40", I put a center screw into the stud and used the Toggler Snaptoggle bolts on either side. These Snaptoggles are solid! The 26" underneath only needed screws in the center, so no problem there.

Thanks to everyone for their input!

Giz- I appreciate the concern you had in all your posts. Please believe me that I do not take safety lightly. I have a two year old daughter and another on the way and all I think about is their safety. I don't take shortcuts. I presented these questions because I'm not sure that using these particular types of toggle bolts are necessarily shortcuts. Not when I hear installers are using them and Samsung includes them as an install option in their packaging. They even put out a video showing you how to use these toggle bolts to mount their TV's. The gentleman at the HT store I mentioned wasn't just some employee-- he was the previous owner of the store and has been in the business for at least 20 years. I make sure I talk to a lot of the right people, including looking at forums like this one. I like to do a lot of home projects on my own, but I make sure I research every detail as much as I can.

Again, thanks for your comments and concerns!
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post #32 of 49 Old 02-21-2011, 05:55 AM
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I'm glad you got it sorted out and wasn't able to figure out why you couldn't hit at least 1 stud for your mount. I have 24" OC studs in my house and it didn't work out too well for one of my 32" mounts. I was able to center it to the wall with a single stud running close to the center of the mount so I put 2 lags in there. Then I added a heavy duty wall anchor to each corner (4). Now, I would never had used anchors by themselves, but along with the lags running through the center this thing isn't going anywhere!
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post #33 of 49 Old 02-21-2011, 02:15 PM
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Originally Posted by BllDo View Post

The Sanus mount you mentioned is 30" wide. Even at 24" OC you should still be able to hit two studs.

Not true. If you have 3 studs @ 24" OC the space between the outer 2 is 46.5" and there is only one stud in the middle. With studs 16" @ OC you end up with 1 stud in 30.5".

I like to use a piece of 3/4" edge banded plywood painted black the same size (or a little bigger) as the back of the mount and secure that to the stud/s. Then I secure the mount to the plywood and the stud/s. It's an extra step but when we bought our 50" Panny it was close to 2 grand and I felt better with the over kill.
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post #34 of 49 Old 02-21-2011, 09:09 PM - Thread Starter
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This section of wall was originally two open cubbies framed to hold the old larger TV's. I had a contractor close up the cubby on the exercise room side and remodel the bathroom side to make a vanity area. The wall is 47" wide, and I assumed (when I couldn't locate any studs with my stud finder) that he put up a board of sheetrock without studs in the middle. At that time, I didn't have plans for the wall. Thankfully, he did put up a stud and, thankfully, I found it! The TV's cover up most of the small nail holes I put all over the wall.
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post #35 of 49 Old 02-22-2011, 02:57 PM
 
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Originally Posted by jneutron View Post

I guess it's time to invoke the dreaded "Maxwell Cremona" diagram, eh??

If one could tighten all the screws with no load on the wall, the ideal condition of equal vertical force on the anchors would be realized. In reality, it would be close..

All the anchors would be supporting the dead weight of the unit. This appears as a shear force on each anchor. Within the structure of the drywall, there will indeed be compressive forces on the lower 180 degrees of the hole. Moly's will spread this to more of the drywall, but in essentially point contact locations. If the moly is overtightened, it will puncture the paper and render the rock susceptible to long term failure, the core of drywall is not very good at high stress. (this is why you don't want drywall screws to pop the paper as it's being tightened.)

Because the center of gravity of the unit is away from the wall, the upper anchors will be required to withstand a tensile force normal to the wall (translation, it's pulling away from the wall). This will add to the compression on the backside of the rock. If the anchors have bitten through the paper, again, not good long term.

NONE of this will occur with a 2 inch #10 wood screw in a stud.

I stand by gizmologist's recommendations.

Cheers, John

One other item that might be of use - no TV I've seen has the same amount of weight on both sides. In other words the mass distribution is not uniform throughout the TV and the TV is not a point source (obviously).

So what you would get in a failure is a rotational force as well as the top bolts pull away with one side pulling away faster than the other. Depending upon how strong the bottom wall is, this could also lead to a compressive force on one of the bottom bolts while the TV rotates away.

I'd want to be really sure of the wall strength before trying this and then I still wouldn't feel comfortable particularly with vibrations in the room.

Edit - And glad you found the wall stud!
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post #36 of 49 Old 03-01-2011, 05:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alk3997 View Post

So what you would get in a failure is a rotational force as well as the top bolts pull away with one side pulling away faster than the other. Depending upon how strong the bottom wall is, this could also lead to a compressive force on one of the bottom bolts while the TV rotates away.

""I see you're no stranger to pain"" (statics and dynamics, Beer and Johnson, 1972)

.....I've been divorced.. (ooooh!!!)


Twice.. (OOOOOOOOHHH!!).

Nice comments...
Cheers, John

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post #37 of 49 Old 03-01-2011, 07:09 PM
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Originally Posted by jneutron View Post

(statics and dynamics, Beer and Johnson, 1972)

I'll bet I have that book in my office.
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post #38 of 49 Old 03-02-2011, 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted by bjex500 View Post

I'll bet I have that book in my office.

Geek!!!
LL

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post #39 of 49 Old 06-16-2011, 03:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by escheng View Post

Well, not really. But, there turned out to be A stud, that actually was pretty close to center! It took a lot of probing and a lot of testing with little nails, but I found it. There is so much dry wall plaster (added an additional 1/2" to the wall thickness) and the texture is uneven enough that my stud finder couldn't find it (or I need a new stud finder).

Anyways, the TV's are mounted and solid in the stud. It looks pretty cool. For the 40", I put a center screw into the stud and used the Toggler Snaptoggle bolts on either side. These Snaptoggles are solid! The 26" underneath only needed screws in the center, so no problem there.

Thanks to everyone for their input!

Giz- I appreciate the concern you had in all your posts. Please believe me that I do not take safety lightly. I have a two year old daughter and another on the way and all I think about is their safety. I don't take shortcuts. I presented these questions because I'm not sure that using these particular types of toggle bolts are necessarily shortcuts. Not when I hear installers are using them and Samsung includes them as an install option in their packaging. They even put out a video showing you how to use these toggle bolts to mount their TV's. The gentleman at the HT store I mentioned wasn't just some employee-- he was the previous owner of the store and has been in the business for at least 20 years. I make sure I talk to a lot of the right people, including looking at forums like this one. I like to do a lot of home projects on my own, but I make sure I research every detail as much as I can.

Again, thanks for your comments and concerns!


How is this setup working out for you? I am in a similar boat, with a stud located exactly on the center of where I want to mount the TV. I am thinking about using 2 lag bolts to attach the mount to the stud at the dead center. I would then use 4 togglers to attach to the dry wall at the 4 corners. This is for a 55" TV that weighs 48 lbs. The mount (LG LSW400BG) is not articulating but it does come away from the wall by up to 8" to provide tip-tilt capability. LG advertises this mount as ok for dry wall, but then do not explicitly state this in the installation manual and that is what concerns me.
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post #40 of 49 Old 06-16-2011, 06:34 PM
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Oh no... not that 4 months-old thread we all already had our shots at it.

Am going to change my answer, after having re-mod my kitchen and seeing huge cabinets hung by just a few thin bolts and they've up there for years!

If you are going to mount it on the center stud and toggle-bolt on the sides just to steady it, OK do it, but I'd add a third bolt toward the top bolt on the stud because it will make me feel better. Good luck!

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post #41 of 49 Old 06-21-2011, 07:22 PM
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27 pounds? 4 SnapToggles? No problem. Yes I'm a pro. No, not a trunk slammer. I wouldn't be able to sleep at night if I EVER hung a TV where there was ANY doubt MY installation would fail. I'd hang 40" LEDs all day long with 4 SnapToggles.

Having said that...First, I'm not going to be responsible for YOUR install or your TV. Second, I would probably be able to find a way to use at least one stud (drill new holes in the mount) before I brought out the Togglers.
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post #42 of 49 Old 05-30-2014, 07:10 PM
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This is the best thread I've found on the subject, so I'm reviving it. I'm hanging a 60-inch, 45 lbs Samsung TV (UN60F8000) on a drywall using a Samsung-brand mini wall mount WMN450M. The studs are, as expected, in the wrong place and would shift the ideal TV position by 8 inches to the left, so we're looking for other solutions.

The drywall in this apartment is, interestingly, 1-inch thick, as opposed to the typical half-inch--that's twice as much support for the toggle bolts than the usual drywall, if I went that route. Does that make toggle bolts a more acceptable solution in this scenario? Again, the TV is 45 lbs.
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post #43 of 49 Old 06-02-2014, 07:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Knocks View Post

This is the best thread I've found on the subject, so I'm reviving it. I'm hanging a 60-inch, 45 lbs Samsung TV (UN60F8000) on a drywall using a Samsung-brand mini wall mount WMN450M. The studs are, as expected, in the wrong place and would shift the ideal TV position by 8 inches to the left, so we're looking for other solutions.

The drywall in this apartment is, interestingly, 1-inch thick, as opposed to the typical half-inch--that's twice as much support for the toggle bolts than the usual drywall, if I went that route. Does that make toggle bolts a more acceptable solution in this scenario? Again, the TV is 45 lbs.
Does it make it safer? Yes! Is it as safe as using studs? Not at all!

I'm sure you are fine with hanging your cheap TV on something that is not 100% structurally sound, but if you aren't made of money, and replacing the TV isn't your first choice, then get a different mount.

Universal mounts with holes every inch are the only appropriate solution if you aren't able to hit studs or manipulate your wall in other ways.

This mount, for example, fixes your issue, is under $20, and is only .4" from the wall when mounted:
http://www.monoprice.com/Product?c_id=109&cp_id=10917&cs_id=1091701&p_id=10485&seq=1&format=2

Monoprice has many other choices as well.

If you do decide to go strictly with the drywall, the rule is still the same: Use Snaptoggle Togglers by Hilti. They will give the most secure mount in drywall that I've seen.

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post #44 of 49 Old 06-02-2014, 08:39 AM
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I wouldn't use just toggle bolts. For some of them, maybe, but not solely.

In our room where we had a similar situation, I used at articulating mount to get the TV where I wanted it, but mounted on studs. I wanted it out from the wall anyway, so this may not work for you.
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post #45 of 49 Old 06-02-2014, 10:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Knocks View Post

The drywall in this apartment is, interestingly, 1-inch thick, as opposed to the typical half-inch--that's twice as much support for the toggle bolts than the usual drywall, if I went that route. Does that make toggle bolts a more acceptable solution in this scenario?

Quite possibly not. The real question is why is there so much drywall up? Because someone half-assed it and just laid another 1/2" layer on top of something in wrecked condition? As in, with cracks, holes, moisture damage or other such issues? Many of which might render the wall WORSE for hanging anything without going into a stud.

Conversely if it's a wall shared with another unit (on the other side) then perhaps they layered and glued it for soundproofing purposes. Hanging on that would present other issues. As in, the noise from the TV would end up radiating through the mounts, negating the point of the layers of drywall.
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post #46 of 49 Old 06-02-2014, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by wkearney99 View Post

why is there so much drywall up? Because someone half-assed it and just laid another 1/2" layer on top of something in wrecked condition? As in, with cracks, holes, moisture damage or other such issues? Many of which might render the wall WORSE for hanging anything without going into a stud.

Conversely if it's a wall shared with another unit (on the other side) then perhaps they layered and glued it for soundproofing purposes. Hanging on that would present other issues. As in, the noise from the TV would end up radiating through the mounts, negating the point of the layers of drywall.

The other side is a bedroom. It's an old apartment building, so I don't think their choice of drywall thickness had anything to do with soundproofing or patching things up. Looks like that's just how things were done when it was built. I also spoke with a friend who said if the building is old, it might be plaster and not drywall, but I wouldn't know how to check that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AV_Integrated View Post


This mount, for example, fixes your issue, is under $20, and is only .4" from the wall when mounted:
http://www.monoprice.com/Product?c_id=109&cp_id=10917&cs_id=1091701&p_id=10485&seq=1&format=2

Monoprice has many other choices as well.

That mount would not work for this TV. I have already bought four (!) different mounts and decided to go with the Samsung one for several reasons:

1) It's made by Samsung, presumably exactly for this TV
2) the UN60F8000 has a weird thickness issue where the Evolution Kit at the bottom protrudes .8 inches, so mounts under .5 inches would not allow the TV to line up against the wall. At the same time, it's still one of the thinnest 60-inch TV around, and I wanted to take advantage of that and still have it sit as close to the wall as possible
3) It has a kickstand, which allows you to get in behind the TV and plug in new devices as you buy them. That was ultimately the deciding factor.
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post #47 of 49 Old 06-06-2014, 06:11 AM
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Looks like that's just how things were done when it was built. I also spoke with a friend who said if the building is old, it might be plaster and not drywall, but I wouldn't know how to check that.

Since no one makes 1" drywall, it's probably drywall over plaster....you can tell by looking at it. Plaster isn't very strong either.
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post #48 of 49 Old 06-06-2014, 06:20 AM
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Originally Posted by SAM64 View Post

Quote:
Looks like that's just how things were done when it was built. I also spoke with a friend who said if the building is old, it might be plaster and not drywall, but I wouldn't know how to check that.
Since no one makes 1" drywall, it's probably drywall over plaster....you can tell by looking at it. Plaster isn't very strong either.

It's not an uncommon shortcut for people to lay new drywall over plaster that's in bad shape. Once upon a time plaster was installed by glopping it onto wooden slats. The technique is known as 'plaster and lath'. It's considerably messier to remove and dispose of than drywall. Thus a lot of times people will just leave it up and skin over it because they don't want to suffer the hassle of removing and disposing of it. It's a slipshod way to do things, but such is life.

Where it'll matter for you is presence of plaster & lath under the drywall would make it pretty difficult to truly find the vertical studs, as you'll need those to properly anchor the mount. That and if the drywall on the surface was only screwed into the plaster (and that's in bad shape) then it might have even LESS support than just drywall alone. It's one thing to have new drywall screwed directly into studs. That's got a somewhat reasonable ability to handle some amount of weight on toggles. But if it's just barely screwed into old, cracking plaster? It'd be even less likely to hold anything more than a picture.

I would never, ever use toggles for anything beyond pictures. For a fixed mount that never moved, and a small TV.... maybe. But not EVER for a mount that has a movable arm. The shear forces would be just too much for toggles in drywall.
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post #49 of 49 Old 06-07-2014, 08:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Knocks View Post

...That mount would not work for this TV. I have already bought four (!) different mounts and decided to go with the Samsung one for several reasons:

1) It's made by Samsung, presumably exactly for this TV
2) the UN60F8000 has a weird thickness issue where the Evolution Kit at the bottom protrudes .8 inches, so mounts under .5 inches would not allow the TV to line up against the wall. At the same time, it's still one of the thinnest 60-inch TV around, and I wanted to take advantage of that and still have it sit as close to the wall as possible
3) It has a kickstand, which allows you to get in behind the TV and plug in new devices as you buy them. That was ultimately the deciding factor.
It's up to you, but I would put in .3" of washers behind the mount so the mount works perfectly, and hit the studs.

Your TV of course. But, on my side I've hung about 150 flat panel displays, and have used this mount and others with all types of TVs. A few spacers definitely do the trick and get the TV really close to the wall.

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