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post #361 of 2588 Old 07-12-2003, 05:26 PM
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Scott,

First... Sorry about the name mix-up. I'll try to do better from now on (and I already have )

I had originally planned to put the sub in the corner, between the bookcase and the wall with the door. When I put it there that first night, when it was temporarily connected to the plate amp with the bass-boost, the whole wall with the door rattled.

The Tempest driver is pretty efficient and does not need much power to get it moving. I can imagine it was getting the full output of the amplifier if it was 6dB boost at 30 Hz, probably at least 12 dB boost at 15 Hz. I was trying some bass-intensive scenes... it was shaking everything.

To answer your wife's question, behind that door is a small closet with holiday decorations stored on a shelf unit and the main circuit breaker panel for the house. As such, it does not get much activity. On the same wall is a second door, it opens to service the air handler on my heat-pump. I eventually plan on re-doing the entire wall with fabric and hidden panels to access the closet areas behind them.

Believe it or not, none of the bookshelves with the glass doors rattle. They have European style spring loaded hinges and are very well behaved. What I silenced so far were doors, poster frames, and doorknobs. What are left and most annoying are coming from above the suspended ceiling. I suspect is is just a hanger to one of the ceiling rails that is loose.

As soon as I straighten out the rest of the clutter I made when building the sub I'll take a picture or two of the whole room for your wife to see. Now that I have all the speakers, it is time to get everything set the way I envisioned when I started.

I spent the morning building stands for the rear speakers. I should finish them tomorrow. Then, my wife has sketched what she envisions for a ticket counter and concession stand... Looks like the sawdust is not over, but those projects will be described in a different thread.

Joe L.
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post #362 of 2588 Old 07-17-2003, 05:50 PM
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Ohh this thread is still active, fantastic.

J.L. would you mind if I picked your brains about the Audax kit from time to time?

I have created a PDF of the Audax webpages concerning the DIY Home Theatre Kit, I basically copied and pasted into Word, but I've preserved all formatting and images (removed navigation etc). I hope at least a few people find it useful, it took quite a while to produce.

Matt (long time lurker short time poster)

edit: Please see later post for updated file;
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...56#post3099956

 

audax diy home theatre.pdf 428.6982421875k . file

 

audax diy home theatre.pdf 428.6982421875k . file
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post #363 of 2588 Old 07-17-2003, 07:31 PM
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I have been working long hours, which have prevented me from completing my center channel array. However during the brief intermissions between crisises at work I have been able to form some ideas about my subwoofer.

By using 6 15" Dayton Quatro woofers (just $75 each) in sealed cabinets, spread across the front of the theater, below the screen, the form a wall to wall subwoofer array.

So rather than radiate into open space, the woofers will couple into a single low frequency line source. Since these reach wall to wall, they would be a horizontal equvalent to the floor to ceiling vertical line arrays, which behave like a virtually infinte line source.

Thinking of this in low frequency terms. The 6 subwoofers working in concert will will create a seamless pressure wave towards the listener that is completely confined on three sides (floor, left wall, right wall.) Think wave machine.

Another interesting fact: The sd of the 15" Dayton quatro is about 127 square inches. Times 6 that is about 5.3 square feet. The front of the room is 13' wide by 8' tall, so that is 104 square feet. Therefore the sd represents just over 5 percent of the area of the front wall.

Detail: six 15" Dayton Quatros (fs 21, vas 186.9 ltr, qts .41) placed in a separate boxes with a qtc of .64, each with an enclosure size of 4.8 cubic feet, across the front of the room. The Quatros are a great value and model great in this regard. They actually do better than the Tempest in resonable sized sealed enclosures.

What opinions do you have on this approach?

See below the illustration of the front of the theater with the subwoofer configuration. Click the url link for a view of the actual room.

James


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post #364 of 2588 Old 07-17-2003, 08:49 PM
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James,

I can only think of one word in response...

WOW

Now that I've seen (and heard) what one 15 inch sub will do, I can't imagine the pressure wave from an array of six.

I hope you carry earthquake insurance and that your home is built to handle the vibrations. Be prepared to have to find and silence a few rattles... in your neighbor's house...

I say, go for it... It is only sawdust (and $450.00 in drivers) You do realize that with the much longer wavelengths involved, you can space the drivers a bit further apart before having to worry about comb effects.

Some day, I'd love to hear it. What state do you live in?

Matt,
Your PDF is great. Be aware that there are two errors in the plans on the Audax web-site.

The woofer crossover schematic for the Center channel has the woofer polarities wrong. The pictorial illustration and the description in the text both (correctly) say that the woofers are wired "out-of-phase" The schematic incorrectly shows the minus input lead connected to the minus terminal on the woofer. That should be the plus terminal.

Basically, the polarity of both woofers on the center channel woofer crossover schematic is opposite of what it should be. The pictorial illustration of how the woofer crossover is physically constructed is correct. E-mail correspondence I had with the designer, Joe D'Appolito, confirmed this.

A second error: The pictorial illustration of the woofer crossover for the left/right front speakers is incorrect, there is no wire connecting the midpoint of the two resistors (R2 and R3) connected in parallel with the woofers and the junction of L2 and C1. In this case, the schematic drawing is correct.

I did not run into these errors as my crossovers were wired by Madisound and supplied already constructed. Since you have put together the PDF, you might want to add a note describing the errors in the drawings.

By all means, feel free to ask questions as you proceed on you project. Thanks for the PDF.

Joe L.
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post #365 of 2588 Old 07-17-2003, 08:53 PM
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I just revisited this thread after many months... glad to see it is still rolling.

JL your speakers look awesome, dude. And I thought it was the neighbor punk's thumpity thump car stereo that I keep hearing over here in Knoxville!

Seriously, your story and contributions to this thread are very inspirational. Thanks for sharing!

ps: You should call your sub The Big BASS-tard!

Please pray for peace.
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post #366 of 2588 Old 07-17-2003, 09:10 PM
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J.L.
I was thinking you should call them-
J. LOW.

James

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post #367 of 2588 Old 07-17-2003, 09:30 PM
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Actually the goal is effortlessness and low distortion. By greatly increasing the speaker area, I hope to eliminate the need for long throw, which causes delay, and distortion. Also sealed enclosures with relatively low q should minmize boom, extent the low frequency response, and reduce distortion at the very lowest frequencies.

My hopes are the result will be musical, effortless, clean, and yet very powerful.

That is the theory at any rate.

I live in California, not too far from My name is NOT Steve.

James

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post #368 of 2588 Old 07-18-2003, 06:39 AM
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So, my two cents:
Did I already say that J.L.'s sub should have been painted white and some yellow stickers applied so it looks like a water heater?
James, I like your comment! Also, I was wondering why you are choosing to use a box Qtc of .64 instead of the "Theoretical" perfect Qtc of .707 according to Vance Dickason's book? If you were to use a Qtc of .707 you wouldn't get any bumps in the bass response and would still get the nice frequency roll-off as well as getting a smaller box. You would instead go from a 4.8 ft3 box each to a 3.34 ft3 box each.

Hopefully you can read the attached image ok.
LL
LL

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post #369 of 2588 Old 07-18-2003, 08:47 AM
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Hi Scott,
what software are you using, and what is the meaning of the room gain and filtering graph. Particularly what is going on with the B rg+f?

Your explainations are anticipated with great eagerness.

James

(I bet J.Low has a great bottom end! Oh baby!)

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post #370 of 2588 Old 07-18-2003, 09:05 AM
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I forgot to say to forget about those, this is from a spreadsheet that is very general and is made for calculating cabin gain for subs in cars as well as any extra boost and filtering.....

Just look at the main curves. The spreasheet came from Brian Steele at http://www.diysubwoofers.org
The spreadsheet link is: http://www.diysubwoofers.org/prt/ported.zip

Scott
 

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post #371 of 2588 Old 07-18-2003, 03:43 PM
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J.L.,

Thanks for the tip about the errors, I was already aware of the L/R error, but not of the center speaker (I *think* I remember someone on maybe diyaudio.com saying to check the center speaker with a 9V battery and seeing what happened, but I dismissed it as cautionary), but anyway that's saved me some hassle so thanks for the heads up.

I am in the process of modifying the images (am on laptop for the while, which has no good graphics editor), I was thinking about correcting them in exactly the same style and re-printing the PDF, it seems as if a lot of people are still interested in this kit. I'd like to get the file size down aswell.

Cheers for letting me Q+A you, I ordered my veneer today (sanding day! tomorrow is routing day), should arrive Monday if all is well. I'll post any problems as I no doubt run into them.

edit: I have realised a question. I have been told that I would achieve a better finish if I veneered the cabinets and then routed the driver holes/rebates after. Notably the exact depth measurement for flush mounting achieved and 'clean' cuts on the veneer (as opposed to a knife). However I am concerned that the router bit would 'tear' the veneer. What are your thoughts/experiences?

James,
I think you could probably take out a small country with the shock wave from those. Good stuff

Matt
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post #372 of 2588 Old 07-19-2003, 06:39 AM
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What I did was to do the rabbeting first, before the application of the veneer.

I also learned (the hard way) to make the hole for the driver exactly 1/2 inch smaller than the diameter of the flush mount rabbet. Then, it is simple to use the bearing guided rabbet bit (set the the proper depth) to cut the rabbet.

after veneering, you can use the same rabbeting bit (set to a slightly shorter depth) to cut the veneer even with the rabbet edge. It goes very fast and I had no problem with the veneer tearing.

The advantage of this is that you can correct any errors in the cutting of the MDF (not that you would make any) before the application of the veneer.

An excellent description of this technique can be found here: http://www.speakerbuilder.net/web_fi...ventutmain.htm

Joe L
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post #373 of 2588 Old 07-19-2003, 07:04 AM
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James,

The other J.Lo. (the actress) has a high pitched voice, so I don't think that name for my subwoofer fits.

My wife has referred to our sub as a "Monster" and we both enjoy science fiction flicks so perhaps it can be a BASS-Monster

Scott,
Great idea about the glossy white finish with yellow stickers. Nothing like hiding a tree in the forest.
I ran that color scheme by my wife and she nixed the idea... Sorry.

Joe L.
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post #374 of 2588 Old 07-19-2003, 12:06 PM
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J.L.,
Excellent info thanks, good link too. I think I'll do that exact procedure. I'm not too worried about cutting it wrong, but I am worried about damaging the veneer.

James,
I intended to have a poke around your site but ended spending most of the evening there (excellent photos btw)! I think I'm going to do as you did and round the edges of the bracing in the speakers with a 1/4" round-over bit, it's only a little extra work.

An open question, something I won't be tackling for a while however...grounding drivers? I've seen a few commercial speakers that have grounding pegs. Further research led me to discover that each driver was grounded, is this worth doing?

Matt
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post #375 of 2588 Old 07-19-2003, 10:27 PM
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Quote:
Scott said: I was wondering why you are choosing to use a box Qtc of .64 instead of the "Theoretical" perfect Qtc of .707 according to Vance Dickason's book? If you were to use a Qtc of .707 you wouldn't get any bumps in the bass response and would still get the nice frequency roll-off as well as getting a smaller box. You would instead go from a 4.8 ft3 box each to a 3.34 ft3 box each.

Hi Scott,
This is a good question. There are a couple of reasons I feel a lower Q than .7~ would be a better for this arrangement. .707 provides the maximum flat frequency response. However in room this can lead to a bit of a bump due to low frequency room gain. For flater "in room" response some consider it better to drop off earlier. Also one of my goals is lower extension, a lower Q provides this and a slightly shallower slope. I am sacrificing some power handling, but the number of drivers allow me to easily make this trade off. None of this is a slam dunk however, and .64 is not that far removed from .7.

James

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post #376 of 2588 Old 07-20-2003, 09:44 AM
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Hi Matt,
Most people recommend a table router for the shaping type bit I used. So I cannot recommend it as a safe practice. (I guess I'm just a wild man.)

Regarding the value of roundover edges here is a page were a test was done using 3/4" round over with visible results.

Dennis Murphy's speaker page

James

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post #377 of 2588 Old 07-21-2003, 02:21 PM
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Wow...what a thread...

JL...that sub is friggin' huge....

I too am using a Tempest...jmiyake...what to say..I'm been thinking Line Array for sometime now....I'm flabbergasted at your crafstmanship. Looking forward to hearing what you think of your center channer.

I've been also thinking of a design for a CC following a cabinet like the Adux...I've picked out drivers and a tweeter..and even designed a crossover for them, but have no idea how to model the whole thing...

Anyhoos.....here's my Tempest with a 280 watt plate amp...It works very well.....the only thing I would change is money related.....I'd do a sealed Tumult....
{Pics removed}
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post #378 of 2588 Old 07-22-2003, 05:10 AM
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downhill,

It seems there are quite a few other DIY loudspeaker builders out there who know how it feels to be covered with MDF sawdust.

I like how you did the trim on your subwoofer too. Your wife has good taste. At least folks in this forum will not be suggesting you paint it gloss white with yellow stickers to have it fit/hide in your decor. (Svonhof, my wife still does NOT like that color scheme)

How did you do the black side panels? Paint? Laminate? Cloth? It is hard to tell from the picture.

Joe L.
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post #379 of 2588 Old 07-22-2003, 05:59 AM
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Downhill,
thanks for the very nice comment. It has turned out better than I expected. This has been a real learning experience for me. Since I have had such good success with the main line arrays, (really the hardest part) I have gotten ambitious, and want to make the rest of the speakers: center, subwoofer, and eventually surround, as state of the art as possible.

Your Tempest subwoofer looks great! The trim really sets it off. Makes it look petite. So it is one of the Adire designs? Is that really the EBS? So it is 340 liters? Wow, doesn't look like it in the pictures. How does it sound? Why would you prefer the Tumult?

BTW: What are the odd, non-symmetrical speakers in the background?

James

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post #380 of 2588 Old 07-22-2003, 06:08 AM
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J.L. how's the rattler roundup going? And how does your sub integration sound? Do you do much music or mainly movies?

James

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post #381 of 2588 Old 07-22-2003, 08:46 AM
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Thanks for your kind comments.

J L..the MDF panels are spray painted a flat black. Oil based, Rustoleom (SP). I thought about laminate, but decided I wanted a flat color...I'm still a student at some of this..the oak is stained with Minwax, Vedona Red. I wanted it a bit more red but in the end, decided I really like the stain.

jmiyake, the box is an Adaire design. It's theirs...The what they call the Adaire alignment, a 214L with two 3 inch tubes, 11 inches long and stuffed with 64 ounces of polyfill.


The Tumult...why? It moves more air. ..But then, money is a consideration. I'm not at all unhappy with the Tempest. In fact I'm elated as to how it turned out.


Your the first to bring up them speakers in the background. They are Marantz...HD-88's with a (no kidding) 4 way crossover.
..

I'll bet your line arrays blow them out of the water!
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post #382 of 2588 Old 07-22-2003, 01:08 PM
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I don't know if this has been mentioned before, but for you Swan Diva fans you can buy Hi-Vi speakers from Madisound that are the same drivers that come in them.
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post #383 of 2588 Old 07-22-2003, 04:05 PM
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Good drivers alone are easy to find, it is the crossover that is hard to get right. I am not sure that the ones in the Swan Divas are all that remarkable... Are they?
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post #384 of 2588 Old 07-22-2003, 08:06 PM
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The metal hi vi woofers have a very harsh hi frequency ringing. These are very difficult to use and very hard to design a good crossover for. Definitely not beginner stuff. Much greater likelihood of success would be to use drivers that either have less problems around resonance, or to use drivers for which a crossover is already designed.

James

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post #385 of 2588 Old 07-22-2003, 08:56 PM
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Had some time to work on the center this weekend.

Finished milling, and started gluing.
Here is front, the center is on it head which gives it an odd look.



If you can imagine it upside down, the shorty array will tilt upwards at a 15 degree angle.

Here is rear, which is open. The shape really looks odd with the wide-angle lens. None of the angles look square.



Here are details of the bracing. You can see I used a 3/8" roundover inside the braces. Also I wanted a little more open area in the 1st brace to I cut a little triangle. I also use a lot of glue which leaves large fillets. It may look a bit messy but sould be strong.



Only a little more milling to do. Wire cutouts for the ribbon line, and vent holes for the back plate along with a recess for the terminals.

Since it will be located just under the screen, I will probably just paint it flat black. While I paint it, I will play the Rolling Stones... you know the song.

James

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post #386 of 2588 Old 07-23-2003, 07:00 AM
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James, earlier in this thread, J.L. gave me the info for some "dead flat laquer". I would think this would be a good place for you to use it.

Also, on your first picture, you could have flipped it so it wasn't "on it's head" and exlpained what you did.

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post #387 of 2588 Old 07-23-2003, 07:09 AM
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Hi Scott,
thanks for the tip on the flat black.
Sorry about the confusion, the glue was drying so I couldn't flip it. I just wanted to explain why it was such a weird shape. Besides, I am not the only one in this thread that likes to flip things on its head... hint... hint.

James

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post #388 of 2588 Old 07-23-2003, 07:22 AM
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Do any of you guys know of a plan/kit for a set of dipole surrounds? Zalytron had a kit using Focal drivers...but the links to the schematics and pictures are now dead. Also Focal is apparently changing their line and some speakers noted in the kit are NLA or in very limited quantities. I'd like to do a set of dipoles in the rear as my rear wall is about 15 feet behind the seating area.

Thanks a million...Good luck...Let us know... Whichever is appropriate this time! jmwj03 at hotmail dot com
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post #389 of 2588 Old 07-23-2003, 09:20 AM
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James,

The "dead flat lacquer" I used on my Left and Right channel speakers was not black, but clear. I used black aniline dye on the veneer and then sealed it with the clear dead flat lacquer. The result was no shine or gloss at all, exactly like I wanted.

I have used the same dye on raw MDF. It works quite well but does not dye where you have sealed the MDF in some other way (excessive glue near the joints, even if you wiped away the excess, seals the surface of the wood so the dye can't penetrate as well)

I used the dye on my speaker stands. Since they are not very visible in the rear of the theater, I can accept that their finish is not absolutely even. The result is a surface that reflects almost no light and looks textured. (almost as if covered with velvet cloth)

You would need something opaque in order to cover the glue joints and the wood and have both look the same in the resulting finish.

I have read of "India Ink" being used for this purpose. Very black, and opaque, and flat. It might be worth an experiment to see what finish it would provide. It, combined with a flat lacquer might just work.

Of course, oil based, flat black Rustolium paint works well too. It is best sprayed as brushing could leave some brush marks. I used it on the top and bottom of my front speaker stands and on the end assemblies of my subwoofer.

Joe L.
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post #390 of 2588 Old 07-25-2003, 05:36 PM
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Well my time-frame has slipped again. It's been a week of problems!

I bought a router, as buying one was cheaper than hiring one for the time I require, and if I blow it up (trust me, most things I touch spontaneously-detonate) it doesn't matter. I've rounded the internal baffles as 'practice'. Anyone who can offer tips on good routing, I'd be most grateful. It's not as hard as I thought, but getting a perfect finish is proving difficult, perhaps it's just practice practice practice.

The veneer arrived a week late, and unfortunately it's cut into 1.5ft strips, which isn't enough to go around the front and sides in one piece, so I'm not sure what I'll do about that yet.

That aside, it seems to be going OK. When I get my digi camera back I'll host some photos, ready for criticism. In the mean time, I thought about painting the inside of the enclosure with some form of sound-deadning paint. Would there be a discernable benefit to this?

Matt
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