Coax surge protection,which one of these would you get? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 76 Old 02-24-2007, 10:43 AM - Thread Starter
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http://www.starlink-dss.com/mini-surge.htm

http://www.newtechindustries.com/new..._protector.htm

Thanks!
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post #2 of 76 Old 02-24-2007, 12:39 PM
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I would recomend this surge protector as my company sells this exact one to cable companies worldwide, but with our company logo on it.

TII's Lightning Surge Protector

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post #3 of 76 Old 02-24-2007, 05:02 PM - Thread Starter
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How much is it? Is it installed near the TV or outside the house near the satellite dish? I don't see a price listed.

Thanks,
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post #4 of 76 Old 02-24-2007, 06:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalat View Post

How much is it? Is it installed near the TV or outside the house near the satellite dish? I don't see a price listed.

Thanks,

Click on their Ebay link, they have one up right now for $12.45 + $3.95 shipping.

You might be able to find one cheaper if you look around. This is not where our company gets them, I just use their link because it has a good picture and specifications.

They also sell one without the ground block that you can just install inline.

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post #5 of 76 Old 10-26-2007, 09:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 11001011 View Post

I would recomend this surge protector as my company sells this exact one to cable companies worldwide, but with our company logo on it.

TII's Lightning Surge Protector

Does anyone know the response time for this item? (If it's mentioned in the stats, I apologize because I may not be understanding what it's saying.)

The reason I'm asking is this similar item seems very popular on the forum:

http://www.newtechindustries.com/new..._protector.htm

However, it lists a response time of 100 nanoseconds. So I'm not real sold on this being an effective solution. That's actually quite long in the world of lightning. (Most recommendations for power surge protectors suggest less than one nanosecond.) Seems to me a spike could travel over my coax back and forth 50 times before this thing ever shuts it off.

Would love it if there was an equivalent to the "brickwall" for coax...

http://www.brickwall.com/

Would the coax protection that comes with a Panamax surge suppressor be sufficient? I'm concerned that response time specs for coax & telephone are conveniently absent from their website concerning this model:

http://www.panamax.com/products.cfm?...il&id=238&ly=v

Makes me wonder if its primary protection is the power line, and all other protection is just an afterthought.
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post #6 of 76 Old 10-26-2007, 10:16 AM
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Quote:


That's actually quite long in the world of lightning. (Most recommendations for power surge protectors suggest less than one nanosecond.) Seems to me a spike could travel over my coax and back 50 times before this thing ever shuts it off.

Are you certain about nano seconds? A quick search shows that SPDs are commonly /tested at 8 to 10 micro seconds or 1.2 microseconds.

and this--

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post #7 of 76 Old 10-26-2007, 02:28 PM
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One nanosecond seems to be the preferred standard from anything I've read. Here's just a few examples from just a few minutes of searching:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surge_protector

http://www.doityourself.com/stry/surgeprotectors

http://www.bestbuy.com/olspage.jsp?g...ge&id=cat12077

And a lot of your high quality surge protectors proclaim themselves to have a response time of < 1 nanosec.

Are you saying a response time this quick is unnecessary overkill?
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post #8 of 76 Old 10-26-2007, 04:32 PM
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If you really need protection look at polyphaser. But anything is useless without a good RF/DC ground system.

http://www.polyphaser.com/aboutus.aspx
http://www.polyphaser.com/cms_spol_a...nglish/MDS.pdf
http://catalog.vincor.com/ProductDet...ode=PP-MDS24FF
http://www.powerpulse.net/techPaper....perID=82&print

Maybe overkill, but they don't sell cheap crap.

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post #9 of 76 Old 10-26-2007, 07:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rennervision View Post

One nanosecond seems to be the preferred standard from anything I've read. Here's just a few examples from just a few minutes of searching:

And a lot of your high quality surge protectors proclaim themselves to have a response time of < 1 nanosec.

Are you saying a response time this quick is unnecessary overkill?

I don't have the definitive answer but I do think the issue is twofold--

There are different devices used in surge protection MOV's, Silicon Avalanche Diode, Silicon Thyristor Diode, gas discharge tubes, hybrids etc. They have different characteristics, including how fast they react. Gas tubes are slower but can manage a lightning strike.

There are different sources of a surge with different characteristics-- such as an AC power line overvoltage, a direct lightning strike, or induced currents from a lightning strike.

I'm willing to wager that all SPDs using similar technology have similar rise times: all MOVs will be similar, all gas tubes similar and so on. The fact that standard testing of SPDs uses .5 and 10 microsecond rise times suggests to me that a device that begins to act a thousand times faster vs. 500 times faster is not the critical factor.

If two point of use SPDs have significantly different rise times, I would ask the manufacturer about the technology used and suitability for my purposes.

Getting back to the cable entrance device pictured in this thread--it is fairly standard for the application.

By the way lightning is DC; it may pulse but it is still DC.

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post #10 of 76 Old 10-28-2007, 06:27 AM
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In my experience the primary source of damaging surge currents is a change of ground potential caused by a nearby lightning strike. The grounding system itself is usually the means to conduct the damaging surge currents. The barrier approach is the best defense:

At the point where the power lines, telephone circuits, and coaxial cables enter the building, install diverter type surge protectors. All of these include a robust ground connection and all three are connected to the building's main ground. The item shown in message #2 in this thread is such a barrier protector for a coaxial cable.

The least effective defense for a coaxial cable is the inline surge protector installed near the equipment. Likewise the least effective power line conditioner is the one installed near the equipment.

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post #11 of 76 Old 10-30-2007, 05:26 AM
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The item in message #2 costs about $103 in the ebay store. A lot of money. I'm sure there are ones that are less expensive.
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post #12 of 76 Old 10-30-2007, 09:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dieselgg View Post

The item in message #2 costs about $103 in the ebay store. A lot of money. I'm sure there are ones that are less expensive.

Probably. But when it comes to surge protection, there is cheap and there is good. Never forget that the purpose of a surge protector is to absorb surges less than it's energy rating expressed in joules. Then it's role is to die so that others might live.

There is no substitute for good effective surge protection at the building's service enterance. I realize that if you do not own your own home, you may have no alternative to a less effective surge protector near your A/V equipment. If I was in that situation, I would buy one of those expensive brands of power conditioners that offered a guarantee that covered my equipment.

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post #13 of 76 Old 10-30-2007, 09:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary McCoy View Post

I would buy one of those expensive brands of power conditioners that offered a guarantee that covered my equipment.



Good luck collecting on that guarantee...

Check the fine print of one of the most popular brand that offer a six figure guarantee. To file a claim you have to ship the power conditioner and all the damaged equipment at your own expense to their lab.

They can take as much time as they feel necessary to deny your claim and you have to pay the return shipping (if you want your stuff back) or be billed for the disposal fees if you don't.

A 'phile and his money are soon parted...
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post #14 of 76 Old 10-31-2007, 10:44 AM
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Yeah, that's precisely why I would never let a company's guarantee factor into my decision in buying their product. I'm more interested in how the technology behind the product works.

That's why I mentioned Brickwall in one of my earlier posts. I was impressed with the information they provide on their site illustrating why you'll never have to worry about a power surge. Too bad it's not for coax though.

None of the products I've seen for coax protection seem to provide real documentation showing how effective they are. Seems like whichever one you buy requires a little faith and a little luck. Back in 1992 I lost a $500 VCR plugged into a surge protector due to lightning. Now I would hate to repeat that experience with my PC which uses coax for its internet connection.
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post #15 of 76 Old 10-31-2007, 02:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rennervision View Post

Yeah, that's precisely why I would never let a company's guarantee factor into my decision in buying their product. I'm more interested in how the technology behind the product works.

That's why I mentioned Brickwall in one of my earlier posts. I was impressed with the information they provide on their site illustrating why you'll never have to worry about a power surge. Too bad it's not for coax though.

None of the products I've seen for coax protection seem to provide real documentation showing how effective they are. Seems like whichever one you buy requires a little faith and a little luck. Back in 1992 I lost a $500 VCR plugged into a surge protector due to lightning. Now I would hate to repeat that experience with my PC which uses coax for its internet connection.

I have surge protection in my system (including a brick wall unit and a Furman PF15i) to protect against power shut offs and power company generated surges, but I am skeptical that any in-line surge protection will protect against a direct lighting strike to the home. We're talking over 10 million volts on average in a lightning strike. I'm not counting on any surge protection device to stop that level of surge. If the weather calls for storms, I unplug. Otherwise, I cross my fingers.
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post #16 of 76 Old 10-31-2007, 09:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rennervision View Post

None of the products I've seen for coax protection seem to provide real documentation showing how effective they are. Seems like whichever one you buy requires a little faith and a little luck. Back in 1992 I lost a $500 VCR plugged into a surge protector due to lightning. Now I would hate to repeat that experience with my PC which uses coax for its internet connection.

I could probably dig up the information on the product I suggested as we did our own in house testing to qualify it. If I can find the time I could test another one myself as I have access to the proper equipment. One of my jobs is to do this type of industry standard testing at our test lab.

Truth be known, there is not much you can do about a lightning strike. I seriously doubt even the mighty Brick Wall could survive and protect your equipment from lightning strike, such as this.


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post #17 of 76 Old 11-01-2007, 12:59 PM
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But the Mighty Brickwall doesn't protect against any surges that might come up the safety ground wire. With a direct hit like that, your house is toast.

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post #18 of 76 Old 03-10-2011, 12:21 PM
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I understand that my post is long over due. I would like to mention the best surge protection company I have dealt with is Surgeassure. The have the same grounded cable protector and can even label it with your company logo. The have a complete line of protectors you could get for a great price and with your label.


check them out surgeassure.com
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post #19 of 76 Old 03-10-2011, 09:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theObvious View Post

The have the same grounded cable protector and can even label it with your company logo.

Chances are it's the exact same coax surge suppressor I posted four years ago as our company gets them re-branded with our logo.

You can still find the 212FF75F22521 online for as little as $10 each if you look for them.

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post #20 of 76 Old 03-11-2011, 12:42 AM
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Just curious on what everyone heres thoughts are as how these preform against the ones built into power conditioners like the Panamax ones as far as actual surge protection goes

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post #21 of 76 Old 03-11-2011, 04:09 PM
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Professional grade coax surge protectors used by the U.S. Govt/Military, Radio towers and Commercial are listed below:

http://www.protectiongroup.com/Home

http://www.alphadeltacom.com/

http://www.iceradioproducts.com/impulse1.html

All coaxial protectors need to be properly grounded at the service entrance outside the house right where the wire from the street comes into the house. The process should be done by a experienced professional.
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post #22 of 76 Old 03-26-2011, 12:40 PM
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I have tried hooking up my UVerse to several of my surge protectors and it degrades the signal so badly that the picture is not watchable. Will the surge protector you are recommending work for UVerse?
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post #23 of 76 Old 03-27-2011, 09:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BG Eagle1 View Post
I have tried hooking up my UVerse to several of my surge protectors and it degrades the signal so badly that the picture is not watchable. Will the surge protector you are recommending work for UVerse?
I'm not sure about which coax cable protectors won't degrade the picture quality, but there are some that will protect it against surges, like the ones I posted above. But AT&T, Comcast, Verizon, Warner etc should all have the proper grounded system set in place at the service entrance outside by the meter box. The best way to protect coaxial cable from surges is outside right where the wire enters the building and it's properly grounded. The further the coaxial surge protector is away from your tv the less likely it will degrade the PQ I believe, they should be installed outside.

You should contact AT&T and have them come out and check to see if it's properly grounded and if not tell them to properly ground it.

Below was forwarded to me by BobL, he's a experienced member here. Contact him for more info about your concerns.

These are a little more affordable.

APC
http://www.apc.com/products/resource...fm?base_sku=PV

Panamax
http://panamax.com/Products/Modules/...x#tab_benefits

Surge Assure
http://www.surgeassure.com/product.aspx?prod=SAVFFF

Leviton - A little more pricey
http://stopsurges.com/LEVITON-51110-...-51110-PTC.htm

There are many others as well. All of these are best installed where cable enters your home and not at the equipment. They need to be connected to ground.
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post #24 of 76 Old 03-27-2011, 01:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oppopioneer View Post

The further the coaxial surge protector is away from your tv the less likely it will degrade the PQ I believe...

The problem with coaxial surge protective devices is that like any real world devices they have capacitance, inductance, and resistance, even though any of those is very small. Combine those things and you get a filter. It doesn't matter if that filter is at the receiving device or 100 feet away. At a given frequency you will lose a certain percentage of the signal. Assume you lose 10% at the surge protective device. You have 90% left. Also assume you lose 50% because of a long coaxial cable run. You have 50% left. 50% of 90% is 45%. 90% of 50% is 45%. Same either way.

If the signal from the cable company is strong enough to start with, the loss in the surge protective device is moot. There will still be enough signal for good reception. A properly installed surge protective device should have no significant effect on reception. The problem is that cable companies tend to provide a signal that has very little headroom because the stronger signal, on average, they provide to customers, the more it costs them to provide it. One can try to find a surge protective device that has the least insertion loss at the frequencies of concern. But the real solution is to get the cable company to provide a signal that is strong enough in the first place.

FWIW the biggest bang for the buck comes from simply grounding the cable shield where it enters the house. And that can be achieved with a simple grounding block. And has been previously stated, the cable company should have already done that.
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post #25 of 76 Old 03-27-2011, 06:51 PM
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Grounding Coaxial Cable Shields: Why, Where, and How...

http://www.iceradioproducts.com/36.html
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post #26 of 76 Old 03-28-2011, 07:47 AM
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If worried about loss in signal, cannot one just add an RF amplifier? I inserted this one just before the splitter with no ill effects (have the cable split to 8 different locations).

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=182-560

Electroline EDA 2100 1-port RF/CATV Amplifier



Here is one with 8 ports already built in.

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=182-574


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post #27 of 76 Old 03-28-2011, 12:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cavchameleon View Post

If worried about loss in signal, cannot one just add an RF amplifier? I inserted this one just before the splitter with no ill effects (have the cable split to 8 different locations).

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=182-560

Electroline EDA 2100 1-port RF/CATV Amplifier



Here is one with 8 ports already built in.

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=182-574


Anyone want to comment on this?

Is this device also a surge protector, if not then can it work with a coaxial surge protector too?
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post #28 of 76 Old 03-28-2011, 01:11 PM
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In general, the internal device is capable of sub nanosecond operation. So the 1 nano number is reality.

How fast the overall unit reacts has everything to do with the wiring layout of the device. Excess inductance between the clamp device and the line will certainly slow the response down.

A good example is the whole house type unit, with the grounding of the device via an insulated ground wire. Line to line transients can be nanosecond level response times, but line to neutral will be limited by the wire. Keep the wire short, straight, and as far away from the load panel metal.

Cheers, John

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post #29 of 76 Old 03-28-2011, 02:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jneutron View Post

A good example is the whole house type unit, with the grounding of the device via an insulated ground wire. Line to line transients can be nanosecond level response times, but line to neutral will be limited by the wire. Keep the wire short, straight, and as far away from the load panel metal.

Cheers, John

Are you refering to the model cavchameleon posted above or a seperate whole house unit model and if so which one is a quality trusted brand that has the features you mention above?

Seperate question...

I have my coaxial cable plugged into my Comcast HD cable box that comes from the wall outlet, the Comcast cable box is plugged into a SurgeX surge eliminator, there is no coaxial cable going into the tv. So does any surge that comes through the coaxial cable and into the cable box stop there and the SurgeX unit suppresses it or is it a seperate dedicated surge that gets through to the plasma tv?
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post #30 of 76 Old 03-28-2011, 02:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oppopioneer View Post

Is this device also a surge protector...

No, it is just a drop amplifier.
Quote:


...if not then can it work with a coaxial surge protector too?

Yes.
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