New Ruling Confirms Copying DVDs is Illegal - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 491 Old 11-13-2012, 05:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Dean Roddey View Post

That's just not true. The saying "keep the honest people honest" is in fact based on reality. If you require a postive step into illegality, that will deter many people who would otherwise if there was no barrier at all, just take it and very easily manage not to examine their own actions too closely.

yup... locks are to keep honest people out... smile.gif

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post #182 of 491 Old 11-13-2012, 05:10 AM
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Corporations running your life, or should I say ruining your life?
How far is copyright protection going to go?

Abundant OTA television is what makes this country different from all others. Lets keep it this way.
The Internet is no place for streaming video.
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post #183 of 491 Old 11-13-2012, 05:12 AM
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I hate to tell you this jack, but the fact that you're posting here on a computer puts you in the top 1% of the world.
1% of the US only have computers?? This is the US we are talking about, not the 3rd world.
Stop the 'straight arrow, legal beagle' BS!

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post #184 of 491 Old 11-13-2012, 05:57 AM
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Think if you were an author and there was place people could go that legally gave your work away. Not only was it legal but this place would be sponsored by the government. It's called a library and I don't see it putting authors in the poor house. People with the means still buy books.
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post #185 of 491 Old 11-13-2012, 06:07 AM
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I don't see much poverty in Hollywood.

Abundant OTA television is what makes this country different from all others. Lets keep it this way.
The Internet is no place for streaming video.
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post #186 of 491 Old 11-13-2012, 06:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by supermr2 View Post

Think if you were an author and there was place people could go that legally gave your work away. Not only was it legal but this place would be sponsored by the government. It's called a library and I don't see it putting authors in the poor house. People with the means still buy books.

that analogy is flawed...

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post #187 of 491 Old 11-13-2012, 07:12 AM
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Originally Posted by supermr2 View Post

Think if you were an author and there was place people could go that legally gave your work away. Not only was it legal but this place would be sponsored by the government. It's called a library and I don't see it putting authors in the poor house. People with the means still buy books.
Yeah, and for only $.10 a page people can have their own copy, using a machine that is available at the library itself! Probably illegal to make that copy though.
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post #188 of 491 Old 11-13-2012, 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

that analogy is flawed...

I think it's the perfect analogy.
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post #189 of 491 Old 11-13-2012, 11:59 AM
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^^^

then you aren't thinking it through very far...

hint: a library would be analogous to netflix/your local video store...

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post #190 of 491 Old 11-13-2012, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

^^^
then you aren't thinking it through very far...
hint: a library would be analogous to netflix/your local video store...

Actually converting CD tracks to MP3 format is the perfect analogy or 8-track to casette or LP to casette or LP to .mp3 or you get the idea. How converting my DVD to a different format to watch on my device is now a criminal offense is beyond me.
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post #191 of 491 Old 11-13-2012, 12:43 PM
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No digital format is in any way analagous to analog copying. There's a reason why, despite there being no protections on any media during the decades of analog media's reign, that sales of music didn't nosedive. The combination of the infinite copyability of digital media with zero degredation plus a world wide distribution medium and location service designed specifically for digital content, and the advent of lots of tools specifically designed to hide the activities of the person distributing the media, makes the current situation completely different from anything that came before.

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post #192 of 491 Old 11-13-2012, 12:45 PM
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So cd to mp3 is not digital?
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post #193 of 491 Old 11-13-2012, 12:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by supermr2 View Post

Actually converting CD tracks to MP3 format is the perfect analogy or 8-track to casette or LP to casette or LP to .mp3 or you get the idea. How converting my DVD to a different format to watch on my device is now a criminal offense is beyond me.

It's not a new criminal offense... it's always been illegal to copy DVDs... for any reason, whatsoever. It's just that all of the ranting on the Internet has lead some to believe in the fallacy of '...fair use...'.

When you buy a DVD, you aren't buying media rights for that movie to watch as you see fit. You are buying the right to watch the DVD disc as you see fit (i.e. on whatever players can play that disc, one at a time and for personal enjoyment).

That's the part that differentiates a neighborhood library from Netflix - when Netflix allows you to see a movie, the copyright holder (and the consumer electronics vendor that embeds the Netflix player on your streamer) all get paid a piece of what you pay Netflix every month. How else do you think we have $80.00 Blu-ray players? You think your $80.00 covers the cost of that player in a manner that provides a profit margin to the CE vendor? No, part of their compensation comes from embedding the Netflix client and enabling the playback of content in your living room.

I have some firsthand exposure to the freakshow that is 'media rights' and it's a very complex model for distributing cash to the folks that make and allow playback of content that is increasingly more expensive to produce and distribute.

I am not saying I agree with any of this... but this is the way it is, like it, understand it, or not smile.gif

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post #194 of 491 Old 11-13-2012, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Dean Roddey View Post

No digital format is in any way analagous to analog copying. There's a reason why, despite there being no protections on any media during the decades of analog media's reign, that sales of music didn't nosedive. The combination of the infinite copyability of digital media with zero degredation plus a world wide distribution medium and location service designed specifically for digital content, and the advent of lots of tools specifically designed to hide the activities of the person distributing the media, makes the current situation completely different from anything that came before.

And enough with the illegal distribution argument. That is NOT what we are mad about. You continually bring up already illegal activities to justify the position here and that is simply not the argument. The argument is about legally purchased media by us the consumer that is now must be either repurchased for us to watch or taken to a "service" for them to convert the media for a fee when it can be done by us very simply.
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post #195 of 491 Old 11-13-2012, 12:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean Roddey View Post

No digital format is in any way analagous to analog copying. There's a reason why, despite there being no protections on any media during the decades of analog media's reign, that sales of music didn't nosedive. The combination of the infinite copyability of digital media with zero degredation plus a world wide distribution medium and location service designed specifically for digital content, and the advent of lots of tools specifically designed to hide the activities of the person distributing the media, makes the current situation completely different from anything that came before.

What sort of hit to sales has the music industry taken as a result of this? The movie industry? Any figures to back up the claims that ripping music and movies to hard drive has caused any significant loss for the industry?
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post #196 of 491 Old 11-13-2012, 01:20 PM
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If you look at a graph of sales, other than a couple small drops during major economic downturns, it was pretty much an ever upwards movement until the year after Napster publicized that everything was out there for free. Since then it's been a downhill slide as downloads have grown. It's hard to believe that's a coincidence.

There was a study done by Harvard, two of them actually. The first one, done not that long after all this really kicked off, claimed that there was no impact to the music industry. This study of course was widely touted around the internet as proof that it was all just a bunch of lies. Something like four or five years later they did another one, and upped the estiamte to 20%. This study of course was NOT widely touted around the internet for some reason.

That was still some years ago, and it was likely a relatively conservative estimate. And it predicted growth the rate of impact continuing. If so, then it's not suprising that sales are now at about half of what they were the year of the Napster case. And of course you have to take into account that the price of music has been lowered pretty heavily as well in order to try to get more people to buy legally, which is basically pricing lowering under the thread of force, not exactly part of free market capitalism.

So, yes, clearly the impact has been huge. If you are in the music business you'd know how it's been going. All those great studios where new artists could work with knowledgeable engineers and mixers and make amazing albums have all but disappeared. There are only a small number of them left. There's no money to take that kind of risk on new artists now.


Of course the way you phrased it is designed to try to put a different slant on it. Is the actual act of ripping to a hard drive costing anymore money. Maybe not, if stopped there. But of course that hard drive is very often pointed to by a file sharing program, and many of them are on servers specific design to make money sharing stolen media. Ripping it is the first step in the chain of events that leads to a massive implosion of revenues.

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post #197 of 491 Old 11-13-2012, 01:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sebberry View Post

What sort of hit to sales has the music industry taken as a result of this? The movie industry? Any figures to back up the claims that ripping music and movies to hard drive has caused any significant loss for the industry?

http://money.cnn.com/2010/02/02/news/companies/napster_music_industry/



If you don't think being able to quickly and easily download torrents months before an album's official release has contributed to this I'm not sure what to tell you. It's not like music has gone down in quality that much in ten years - it was Nsync, Backstreet Boys, Britney Spears, and Limp Bizkit dominating the CD charts at the turn of the millenium.

And with digital recording it's cheaper than ever to record an artist. Tape was historically the most expensive part of making an album - thats all gone. You also don't need to hire as many studio musicians because MIDI programming has become so good.

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post #198 of 491 Old 11-13-2012, 01:40 PM
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If you don't think being able to quickly and easily download torrents months before an album's official release has contributed to this I'm not sure what to tell you. It's not like music has gone down in quality that much in ten years - it was Nsync, Backstreet Boys, Britney Spears, and Limp Bizkit dominating the CD charts at the turn of the millenium.
And with digital recording it's cheaper than ever to record an artist. Tape was historically the most expensive part of making an album - thats all gone. You also don't need to hire as many studio musicians because MIDI programming has become so good.

I agree with you, but I think it's more complicated than simply blaming it on ripping. I think the music industry has also been devastated by two, other things:

1. Single track downloads (which I love since I still feel ripped off from all of the worthless 'bloat' tracks on albums from the '60s, '70s and '80s - I mean 'Benny the Bouncer', are you frickin' kidding me?)

2. Used CDs on Amazon - it was one thing when you could go to your neighborhood record store and buy used discs, but Amazon has taken this to Armageddon levels - why would I pay 9.99 to legally download tracks from iTunes when I can pay (often times) as little as a single dollar for a real CD, have a wide-open selection of titles, and can then rip it with lossless quality.

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post #199 of 491 Old 11-13-2012, 01:48 PM
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If you have 45 minutes to watch this video, there is some interesting information as it relates to music industry sales and how easy it is to blame sales figure declines on services such as Napster

It is by Dr. Michael Geist, Professor of Law at the university of Ottawa http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKxhNHyWUiQ&feature=youtu.be Canada's situation is a bit different but the points remain the same.


You can't blame Napster and P2P file sharing for the decline in record sales. You have to consider many other factors, including what was keeping sales high in the first place - in this case it was many years of formats changing from Vinyl to tape, from tape to CD and people were buying duplicates of music they already owned simply to keep up with the format evolution. Once we hit CD's, there hasn't yet been a better physical format, so many people simply have shifted music from their existing collections to a file based format.
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post #200 of 491 Old 11-13-2012, 04:03 PM
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That's just not a valid argument. Sales of new music was very healthy in the 90s. And it's not like new music stopped coming out after 1999 or anything. If you want to see how downloading has affected things, look at the numbers sold for the most popular content. And of course the music industry depends the most on that most popular content for the bulk of its sales, because the vast majority of acts they invest in don't ever break out. Compare what the most popular albums or songs sell now compared to what they sold in the 90s.

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post #201 of 491 Old 11-13-2012, 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by supermr2 View Post

Think if you were an author and there was place people could go that legally gave your work away. Not only was it legal but this place would be sponsored by the government. It's called a library and I don't see it putting authors in the poor house. People with the means still buy books.

This has already been well covered. A library can ONLY lend/rent legally purchased books. Ever gone into a library and the book been out? Did they make you another copy right there at the desk? No, you had to do with out or go buy it or wait. Or they had to buy more copies in order to meet the demand. It's the same with Netflix or the old B&M rental stores.

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post #202 of 491 Old 11-13-2012, 04:25 PM
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And enough with the illegal distribution argument. That is NOT what we are mad about. You continually bring up already illegal activities to justify the position here and that is simply not the argument. The argument is about legally purchased media by us the consumer that is now must be either repurchased for us to watch or taken to a "service" for them to convert the media for a fee when it can be done by us very simply.

Well, the conversation moved in that direction at various points. My early points were that this is more about preventing other companies from making money on either directly making ripped content available or making money selling the tools to allow it to happen. If you have to constantly chase your stuff of of Youtube, it's a losing battle and all Youtube has to do is drag their feet a little bit and effectively your stuff will always remain available no matter what you do. If it's the case that the content couldn't possibly have gotten onto Youtube legally at all, then it becomes a different sort of legal battle ground.

If there was a way for you to rip the media safely without opening up that huge box of Pandora's (no pun intended), it wouldn't be worth their money to try to stop it. But that's just not the case. It can't be done, and no matter what they try to do it, people will immediately condemn them for it and work to get around it. So there just isn't a technical solution, and so it's got to be fought on the legal front really.

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post #203 of 491 Old 11-13-2012, 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Krutsch View Post

2. Used CDs on Amazon - it was one thing when you could go to your neighborhood record store and buy used discs, but Amazon has taken this to Armageddon levels - why would I pay 9.99 to legally download tracks from iTunes when I can pay (often times) as little as a single dollar for a real CD, have a wide-open selection of titles, and can then rip it with lossless quality.

And how many of those albums were ripped and then sold, you figure? For that matter, how many people buy them for a dollar, rip them to lossless quality, and then resell them?

But, anyway, this really can't account for new music sales, because those sales are down from the start. It's not like they were sold in original numbers and now everyone is selling them off. They never sold anything like what top selling stuff would have before downloading (and various other semi-legal systems like Youtube, where you basically have the choice of putting your stuff up there and getting something out of it or forever chasing uploads to get them taken down, a losing game.)

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post #204 of 491 Old 11-13-2012, 04:58 PM
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According to Billboard year end charts, these are the totals sold for the top ten albums of each of the past few years combined:

1999: 54,662,087
2000: 60,416,583
2001: 40,390,697
2002: 38,978,751
2003: 33,487,224
2004: 28,585,353
2005: 32,036,292
2006: 25,089,183
2007: 24,797,070
2008: 18,699,420
2009: 21,379,286
2010: 20,120,356
2011: 17,764,399

Catalog albums wouldn't likely be included in the top ten albums, only new releases since most are sold in the first few weeks. Combined sales of the top ten albums have fallen by well over half.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Best-selling_albums_in_the_United_States_since_Nielsen_SoundScan_tracking_began#1999.5B19.5D.5B21.5D

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post #205 of 491 Old 11-13-2012, 07:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Dean Roddey View Post

And how many of those albums were ripped and then sold, you figure? For that matter, how many people buy them for a dollar, rip them to lossless quality, and then resell them?
But, anyway, this really can't account for new music sales, because those sales are down from the start. It's not like they were sold in original numbers and now everyone is selling them off. They never sold anything like what top selling stuff would have before downloading (and various other semi-legal systems like Youtube, where you basically have the choice of putting your stuff up there and getting something out of it or forever chasing uploads to get them taken down, a losing game.)

Well, that's sort of my point - some percentage of new sales are lost to the ease of purchasing used CDs.

Where do you think you those newly published, used CDs come from? You think kids listen to them once and then resell them because they are bored with listening to them? No, they rip-and-turn-em - forget about the lossless comment (that's what I do - but I'm sure most kids just accept the iTunes default).

You should take a moment and look at what's for sale as used on Amazon for relatively new CDs...

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post #206 of 491 Old 11-13-2012, 07:11 PM
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The current problem is, the belief that everything should be Free, or next to Free!
The problem here is, yes we'll allow you to copy for your own use, to use in other Media Playback if you Legally purchased the Original.
Now your friend, who's a little short now, would like to also enjoy your purchase. And you being a kind soul, you make him a copy so he can enjoy until he purchases his own copy. But, he never does buy his own copy, in fact he's even more generous than you, and lets all his friends, also have a copy. So now, everyone's got a copy, but the Original Artist, Manufacturer and Vendor have been left out of the loop! So, does the government now outlaw friends, relatives etc, from owning a never purchased copy?
This whole mentality moves down the chain! Example - Joe Blow likes to make a little money on the side doing yardwork. Charges $40 to $50 for 3 or 4 hours work. Been doing it for years. But, now he's up against the new mentality, `He should be happy to have the work!' But, please don't charge more than $10! I wonder why there's no one around to do yard work anymore?
So is there any difference to actors, musicians, etc, wanting to do it for next to nothing, when they should be doing what they're doing just for the joy of it! Next problem - doesn't put food on the table! Ooops, now we've affected the farming sector! And it just keeps spreading!
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post #207 of 491 Old 11-13-2012, 07:25 PM
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It's definitely the case that, as soon as it became clear to people that they could steal music, that anyone making money from music immediately had to go on the Enemies of the People list, so as to make it easier to justify stealing from them. The other strategy being to always hold that stealing never actually hurts the artist, it only hurts the 'fat cats' who apparently own everything, even small indie labels. This whole anti-success thing actually seems to have sort of merged with a certain type of class warfare as well, to create this kind of growing belief that no one deserves to make a lot of money, not matter what they do.

I don't know how many of you were around back in the olden days of AVS. But back in the years after the internet went public and all of this was getting widely discussed, there were massive arguments in the HTPC area about this. There I was told flat to my face that I have the right to use your software without paying you for it if I want to. I'd explain, well, why would I give up a million dollars in income I could earn as a mercenary with little to no stress and a fairly comfrotable work week, and instead work like a slave for almost nothing trying to create a new product? Well, lots of people are poor, why should you be special?

The logic was just mind bogglingly steeped in entitlement culture and theft rationalization. I would often be the only one on the entire multi-thousand post thread, who would be on the side clearly laid out by legality and morality for thousands of years, but being treated like a leper. When you've been through that a couple hundred times, here and on other fora, it's not too hard to figure out what happened to the music business, and what will happen to any other industries who don't protect themselves.

Dean Roddey
Chairman/CTO, Charmed Quark Systems, Ltd

www.charmedquark.com

 

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post #208 of 491 Old 11-13-2012, 07:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Dean Roddey View Post

I would often be the only one on the entire multi-thousand post thread, who would be on the side clearly laid out by legality and morality for thousands of years, but being treated like a leper. When you've been through that a couple hundred times, here and on other fora, it's not too hard to figure out what happened to the music business, and what will happen to any other industries who don't protect themselves.

Are you just figuring this out now? BTW, thank you for that last rant... I laughed for five minutes and I'm still laughing as I click on 'Submit' !

"Play the volume as loud as you want - but don't touch my levels now. I got them set just like I like them"
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post #209 of 491 Old 11-13-2012, 08:00 PM
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Remember now, not everyone who "steals" music from a friend who burns them a copy of the disc was going to purchase it in the first place. Does it make it right? No, but at the same time you can't say just because 1 million people obtained the work illegally that represents 1 million lost sales.
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post #210 of 491 Old 11-13-2012, 08:22 PM
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Actually converting CD tracks to MP3 format is the perfect analogy or 8-track to casette or LP to casette or LP to .mp3 or you get the idea. How converting my DVD to a different format to watch on my device is now a criminal offense is beyond me.

I agree only if you have the means to buy Kaleidescape +$20,000 then it' legal frown.gif

Only the ultra-wealthy can have perks the rest of the population will never have
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