4K/UHD Content at CES 2013 - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 19 Old 01-11-2013, 12:14 PM - Thread Starter
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With all the 4K/UHD displays on hand at CES, the next big question is, where will the native UHD content come from? At least two companies offered answers to this question. LG was demonstrating UHD over-the-air terrestrial broadcasting in conjunction with the Korean Broadcasting System (KBS), which has been running trials of this system in Seoul over a coverage area with a radius of 10 kilometers. The system transmits UHD at 60 frames per second (progressive) using a new codec called HEVC (high-efficiency video coding), aka H.265, which allows the signal to be transmitted at 35 Mbps, a 75-percent bandwidth savings compared with MPEG-2.

 

In the LG booth, the transmitter was behind the wall holding the 65-inch UHD TV seen above. Two antennas, which can be seen on either side of the TV in the photo, are required to pick up the signal, and the decoder sends the image to the TV via two HDMI cables. The KBS-produced content looked quite good to my eye.

 

 

 

 

Sony announced a distribution system that will provide UHD content for download to a server, such as the prototype shown here. The service is planned for launch this summer. Sony also announced consumer-oriented UHD camcorders, allowing you to create your own 4K content.


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post #2 of 19 Old 01-11-2013, 02:58 PM
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This isn't going to look good on a projection system or extra large flat panel... which is what you'll need for UHD anyway.

Sony is smoking crack if they think the current U.S. infrastructure can handle quality 4k anything for the next decade, at least. It'll be so cludgey that people won't bother with it, especially the much needed early adopter. In Japan, perhaps. But this ain't Japan, if they haven't noticed.

As I mentioned in a previous thread, even the BDA has admitted that a disc based format will probably be required for the foreseeable future... if you want quality UHD movies. Even Sony was loading UHD content onto their home media servers (free with one of their ultra-expensive sets) with higher capacity Blu-ray data discs.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
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post #3 of 19 Old 01-14-2013, 06:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post

This isn't going to look good on a projection system or extra large flat panel... which is what you'll need for UHD anyway.

Sony is smoking crack if they think the current U.S. infrastructure can handle quality 4k anything for the next decade, at least. It'll be so cludgey that people won't bother with it, especially the much needed early adopter. In Japan, perhaps. But this ain't Japan, if they haven't noticed.

As I mentioned in a previous thread, even the BDA has admitted that a disc based format will probably be required for the foreseeable future... if you want quality UHD movies. Even Sony was loading UHD content onto their home media servers (free with one of their ultra-expensive sets) with higher capacity Blu-ray data discs.

It seems to me that you're talking about streaming here, in which case, I agree with you that most people in the US don't have the bandwidth to support high-quality 4K streaming. Netflix was demonstrating 4K streaming in the Samsung booth, which I didn't get to see, but I can't imagine it would look very good, especially on a very large screen, as you point out.

 

On the other hand, Sony is talking about downloading, not streaming. So the quality can be very good, even if the consumer's bandwidth is low; it will just take a while to download. I suspect you would download a movie, say, overnight and then play it once it's on your local hard disk. You are right that Sony is pre-loading 4K movies onto a server that comes with the XBR-84X900, and more titles will be delivered to owners on Blu-ray data discs (not video discs), which are then loaded onto the server.

 

Red Ray is a similar story, with distribution on memory sticks or perhaps downloading, but not streaming.

 

As far as 4K Blu-ray video discs are concerned, I think that will take some years to come to market. For one thing, a higher-capacity physical format would be required. Yes, we have BDXL at 100 GB, but that's currently a recordable data format, not video ROM. And even if a video ROM version was developed, all the replication facilities would have to be updated to produce it. Plus, if history is any indication, the BDA will take a long time to finalize a new spec.

 

In my opinion, downloading is the best way to get 4K content to the home, at least in the short term. Of course, the tricky part will be DRM.


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post #4 of 19 Old 01-15-2013, 03:47 PM
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Scott,

Here's the problem with downloading... you're at the mercy of the player's storage capacity or, if they allow you to offload films to your own PC, to their DRM strategy (Sony has, in the past, installed rootkits in a computer's registry when you wanted to play content on your PC). This could be all over the map depending on the studio. Once the storage is maxed out and you've payed for these movies to be in your collection... are you going to have to start deleting said files in order to purchase new ones?

What if my hardware crashes? Will these titles always be made available for download?

Look at DVR's from Comcast, DISH, and DirecTV. Once you top off the hard drive with content, you have to delete some of your shows. There's no legal way to back them up. And that's what the studios' lawyers want to have happen.

If you download... will the play time be limited to a certain amount of time? Will they lock out content at some point? If there is litigation pending for a title, will it no longer be made available to download? With a disc... they don't come to your home and confiscate said disc, and usually can't pull discs off the shelves fast enough, so you still have a bit of a safety net. If you have it on disc and it's discontinued, count yourself lucky.

How about cloud storage for the studio content? Storage costs money, so are they going to keep adding movies to their selection or are they going to switch around their offerings?

What is Disney going to do? Start deleting files off their server farm and put their titles back in the vault? They do this with discs... I can only imagine what they'll dream up in a download service.

What about the new DTS/SRS and Dolby Atmos object-oriented soundtrack technologies sound engineers are ga-ga over? Would these be included in said downloads?

Just like DIVX and other PPV schemes that have come and gone... this download-only scheme for UHD seems to be fraught with peril from the consumer's standpoint.

This is what studios have been waiting for and what home theater geeks have long been dreading.

---

Keep the pressure on for a top quality disc based format. It may be our only real hope.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
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post #5 of 19 Old 01-15-2013, 05:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Dan,

 

Well, you are certainly correct that there are MANY details that need to be worked out in any 4K distribution system, be it downloading, streaming, or physical disc/memory stick. And what the studios want is often diametrically opposed to what consumers want, which will make it even more difficult to develop. Your questions here are all very good, and only time will tell how it will all play out.


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post #6 of 19 Old 01-16-2013, 02:25 PM
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Scott,

We have to fight back and start proposing what WE home theater savvy consumers want as the future of entertainment media. The studios would rather us bend over and take it like many times before. I say the time has come to push back before a format is encased in stone. We, after all, are the ones making them billionaires.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
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post #7 of 19 Old 01-17-2013, 12:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Wilkinson View Post

... Netflix was demonstrating 4K streaming in the Samsung booth, which I didn't get to see, but I can't imagine it would look very good, especially on a very large screen, as you point out...

I saw it and it looked bad, a lot artifacts and it looked like HD level of resolution not ultra.
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post #8 of 19 Old 01-17-2013, 12:43 PM
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I was at CES and met with Red Touch Media. What I see when it comes to UHD/4k content is companies like Red Touch Media not only providing ecosystem-level solutions for home and business when it comes to cloud-based media content management, but also where the user owns the rites to whatever they purchased so they are allowed to download anything from the cloud in perpetuity. That is what RTM does. They can do it because they have a direct relationship with most of the studios, in other words, they are not an aggregator. They said the folks at XBMC met with them and want to engage in talks. That's a good sign. We need to bring live and recorded cable TV, 3rd party tuners, media extenders, HTPC's and whole home streaming solutions into the mix. The company that is first to deliver a real complete ecosystem with the freedom of the user to watch anything, anywhere, on any platform, and in virtually any capacity is going to win big time. I don't know if RTM will accomplish this or some other company, but the technology is available, we just have to get people to behave. I don't know what's more challenging, getting them all to work together or getting congress to.
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post #9 of 19 Old 01-17-2013, 07:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Scott Wilkinson View Post

The system transmits UHD at 60 frames per second (progressive) using a new codec called HEVC (high-efficiency video coding), aka H.265, which allows the signal to be transmitted at 35 Mbps....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Wilkinson View Post

As far as 4K Blu-ray video discs are concerned, I think that will take some years to come to market. For one thing, a higher-capacity physical format would be required.

Current Blu-ray video allows for up to 40 Mbps video streams: if H265 can really achieve (near) transparency with 4K at 35 Mbps, no upgrade in disc technology is needed, just new players capable of decoding 4K H265. If, however, you see as much artifacting at 4K with 35 Mbps H265 as you do with typical OTA DTV streams today--well, that's not going to cut it. smile.gif
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post #10 of 19 Old 10-23-2013, 07:46 PM
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A guy from Sony was in Best Buy answering questions about 4k TVs for people a few weeks ago. He said they were planning on making 4k movie downloads available from their current online movie store. He said they would be for download instead of steaming and each movie would take 3 hours to download and cost $30.

He also said they were working on a 4k blu ray type system with Panasonic but he seemed to have gotten his info from the Internet rather than his employer so he may know little that we don't know for sure.

He thought $30 for a movie was good value but given that most people watch a movie once, a $2.99 streaming seams like a better idea.

His job in the store included moving the demo chairs forwards throughout the day as customers kept pushing them back. Once you got more than 5 feet from the screen, customers couldn't clearly see the difference between the 4k content and the Star Wars blu ray that was playing and looked more impressive on the curved LG OLED tv on the other side of the room.

Viable 4k at home is not just about affordable devices, it needs a source of affordable and convenient content. Downloading and disk formats is a step backwards. The general public prefers cost and convenience over quality. Mini disc was better than cd and cd was better than mp3 but which is the dominant format? Sony are too big to support small niche markets. Without mass market appeal, they are more likely to drop the format as they have a history of doing.

I don't see why it is so hard for them. They have a movie studio and a back catalogue of content that is already stored in 4k. We don't want a cut down home version at that price, we want the same files that theaters use. If they can't make it happen, then nobody can. They have retail outlets. Why not let people bring their hard drives in and pay to have the launch content replaced with new titles. It would get people into their stores and stop them being held back by Internet bandwidth issues. Heavy compression reduces image quality and if I pay $10k - $25k for a tv or projector, I want to be able to use it.

The 4k projector adheres to the theater 4k standard, not the stupid narrower home ultra HD standard so making the movie theater content available seems right for the type of people that pay $25k to be the first adopter of the format.

I heard that tests on 8k broadcasting is already gong on. Is it possible that 4k will be bypassed in favor of the newer technology? We keep hearing about a new format but it never comes. It was meant to be summer 2013. Summer has now finished and there is no announcement. The Christmas launch of the PS4 was made last year so we can assume that it will not happen in 2013 given that nothing has been mentioned.

Do new compression standards mean that it is less likely that current 4k displays will be compatible without another converter????
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post #11 of 19 Old 10-23-2013, 08:15 PM
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Internet content without a physical competitor will cost an outrageous amount. $30 for 8 bit UHD with lesser audio and no back up disc in my hand? No thank you!

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
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post #12 of 19 Old 10-30-2013, 06:40 AM
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Once again Sony is putting the cart before the horse here and I hope they don't get burned. I have said it once and I will again and that's "Too much to soon". They got burned with 3D and they may get burned with 4K.
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post #13 of 19 Old 10-30-2013, 09:24 AM
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Once again Sony is putting the cart before the horse here and I hope they don't get burned. I have said it once and I will again and that's "Too much to soon". They got burned with 3D and they may get burned with 4K.

The industry should have come up with an outstanding package of features for UHD (on the audio and video side) and THEN come out with an HDMI standard to handle it all and THEN come out with the media and TV's that would showcase a more professional level to consumer goods.

Instead it looks like one hand doesn't know what the other is doing!! They're looking like a bunch of friggin' idiots.
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post #14 of 19 Old 10-30-2013, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post


The industry should have come up with an outstanding package of features for UHD (on the audio and video side) and THEN come out with an HDMI standard to handle it all and THEN come out with the media and TV's that would showcase a more professional level to consumer goods.

Instead it looks like one hand doesn't know what the other is doing!! They're looking like a bunch of friggin' idiots.


I totally agree. The ultimate result of this incompetence is that UHD is the new 3D.

 

I'm more interested in 10-bit/12-bit OLED displays pushing 1080/60p. I have zero interest in UHD/3840 content or devices. If the content/devices were true 4K/4096 then I would be interested.

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post #15 of 19 Old 10-30-2013, 10:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by steve1971 View Post

Once again Sony is putting the cart before the horse here and I hope they don't get burned. I have said it once and I will again and that's "Too much to soon". They got burned with 3D and they may get burned with 4K.

The industry should have come up with an outstanding package of features for UHD (on the audio and video side) and THEN come out with an HDMI standard to handle it all and THEN come out with the media and TV's that would showcase a more professional level to consumer goods.

Instead it looks like one hand doesn't know what the other is doing!! They're looking like a bunch of friggin' idiots.


Wow Dan! Nicely said and I couldn't have said it better myself.
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post #16 of 19 Old 10-30-2013, 04:15 PM
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I totally agree. The ultimate result of this incompetence is that UHD is the new 3D.

I'm more interested in 10-bit/12-bit OLED displays pushing 1080/60p. I have zero interest in UHD/3840 content or devices. If the content/devices were true 4K/4096 then I would be interested.

I would think, given the relatively smaller screens, even front projection systems, in the home theater environment compared to even some small and medium sized commercial theater systems, that a few fewer lines of pixels would not be as noticeable. More like 1.78:1 vs. 1.85:1, in some respects.

What interests me more is how well H.265 will be able to compress these UHD files and still maintain excellent, artifact-free PQ on said front projection systems. The next thing is whether or not Hollywood will allow for high video bit depth (at least 10, but wishing for 12) and high chroma sampling (4:2:2 or 4:4:4), and a noticeably wider color gamut. The other: a new audio format for the home much like Atmos or MDA that will take surround to a whole new level without being severely dumbed down in order to squeeze it into an internet stream.

Given all this, it will take a very large capacity disc in order to pull it off. The internet isn't ready for something of this magnitude and still have it look and sound outstanding.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
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post #17 of 19 Old 11-02-2013, 10:51 AM
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I have a lot of Sony 2160p Content that are coming from Sony's Media Streamer.

It's 22GB with various content from Paris, FIFA Conferederations Cup Brazil 2013, Hawaii, Egypt, Italy, Okinawa, Wimbledon etc.

The file extendtion of these files is SEV.

Does anyone have any idea on how can i open this SEV file extention?

Mainly I want to see the bitdepth/framerate/chroma subsampling/encoder informations etc.

I used SGO Mamba FX to open it (because it opens all RAW files) but it was not a supported format.....

BTW, I have Samsung 2160p Content than can be played from USB of Samsung 4K TV.

Samsung is doing a very clever trick to make 2160p files playable from USB Stick....

They split the 4K files to 4 x 1080p H264 Level 4.1 (Blu-Ray Spec), each file containts 1 quarter of the image.

So the original file is DEMO_a.mp4

the other 3 files are named as:

DEMO_b.mp4sub
DEMO_c.mp4sub
DEMO_d.mp4sub

So if you open the DEMO_a.mp4 file from a Samsung 4K you will see a 2160p video.

So if you open the DEMO_a.mp4 file from a Samsung 1080p you will see only the one quarter of the full video....

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post #18 of 19 Old 11-12-2013, 04:51 PM
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Quote:
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I have a lot of Sony 2160p Content that are coming from Sony's Media Streamer.

It's 22GB with various content from Paris, FIFA Conferederations Cup Brazil 2013, Hawaii, Egypt, Italy, Okinawa, Wimbledon etc.

22GB of what run length time? Also do you mean live streaming or downloading the content?
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post #19 of 19 Old 11-12-2013, 05:24 PM
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Quote:
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I have a lot of Sony 2160p Content that are coming from Sony's Media Streamer.

It's 22GB with various content from Paris, FIFA Conferederations Cup Brazil 2013, Hawaii, Egypt, Italy, Okinawa, Wimbledon etc.

22GB of what run length time? Also do you mean live streaming or downloading the content?

Hello, It's demo 4K stuff that is coming from inside the Sony 4D Media Streamer (not for sale unit/only for product demonstration), demo clips of 2-3 minutes length, not available at public.

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