Panasonic ZT60 Plasma at CES 2013 - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 366 Old 01-23-2013, 08:26 PM
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Originally Posted by jh901 View Post

When is pricing typically announced each year?

Pricing has been announced for the mid range plasmas (ST60 & S60), hopefully we'll see the VT60 and WT60 pricing soon.

http://www.hdtv-news.com/panasonic/st60-s60-prices/

TC-P50ST60 | 50-inch, $1300
TC-P50ST60 | 55-inch, $1600
TC-P60ST60 | 60-inch, $1900
TC-P50ST60 | 65-inch, $2800

TC-P42S60 | 42-inch, $730
TC-P50S60 | 50-inch, $900
TC-P55S60 | 55-inch, $1100
TC-P60S60 | 60-inch, $1300
TC-P65S60 | 65-inch, $1900
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post #92 of 366 Old 01-25-2013, 06:31 AM
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Originally Posted by cybolt View Post

I'll believe it when I see it. I've got my 5080 Kuro (720p) right next to a 60GT50 and the Kuro black still wins.

An interesting and honest point you made there. Not the first time i have read that about 8G black. The 8G Kuro imho is much more cinematic also. And has much better processing and components all round.
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post #93 of 366 Old 01-25-2013, 06:52 AM
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I agree, I have many clients with 9G Kuro who bought the VT50, the black level is still noticably better on the Kuro. One doesn't even need to have them sitting side by side to notice the difference.

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post #94 of 366 Old 01-25-2013, 06:52 AM
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I agree, I have many clients with 9G Kuro who bought the VT50, the black level is still noticably better on the Kuro. One doesn't even need to have them sitting side by side to notice the difference.
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post #95 of 366 Old 01-25-2013, 07:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post

Actually, anyone looking at plasmas should have a read of the various threads in the 'Display Calibration' forum, where there is a lot of discussion about the inability for plasmas to be accurately calibrated due to the effect of ABL.

We calibrate displays for the professional post industry, and plasmas are hated by all that attempt to use them for anything other than 'client' repeat displays.

No matter what Panasonic say, they are not taken seriously for true 'grading' displays in colour critical environments.

Steve

Steve,

Thank you. Yes. This is the case. I believe the problem is most people see these charts made by the calibrators, but they don't realize that the chart only represents the Plasma's accuracy for a range of APL. It does not mean the TV is that accurate overall. The best you can do with a plasma today is calibrate it to be accurate within a narrow range of APL. The best calibrators would have studied the panels using lots of different size patterns and find one that help the TV hit the widest range for the calibration.

As well plasma really struggles with dark shades. Dithering is just a work around because the panels are incapable of producing more than 9k-12k actual solid colors on the screen at once. Anyone who thinks this is not causing a loss of resolution/fidelity is only fooling themselves. The "but can you see dithering from your viewing position?" is not a proper answer/excuse. The real question is, if you had a high quality 24bit capable panel next to a dithered 12bit plasma could you tell the difference. And the answer is yes, easily.

The other issue i find is with these shootouts. While they are great entertainment, they are easily biased/controlled. Calibrating a plasma is a bit of an art because there are trade offs/sacrifices made when calibrating. So when you calibrate you find pattern sizes that get you close to hitting the targets in as wide of range of APL as possible. How do you know the person doing the calibration has really studied all of the TVs in the shootout in depth? Reality is they really don't either have time to do this, or they don't want too. There has been a few too many "oops" I didn't know that feature was turned on/off errors at these events. Seems to me the TV's studied the most are usually the Panasonic's before the shootout. One of the main calibrators gets Panasonic's early on to learn them, but this person does not do this with other manufacturers. So it's really not a comparison of equals speaking for the calibration (plasma wise).

Calman should come up with a fully automated measurement system which does FULL color tracking (and gamma) but tests the TV at say 10 different APLs (this would be 340+ data points). Ranging from low to high. Then produce a full 3d graph to show the TVs real accuracy with gamma/color. This type of measurement would also take a lot of the guess work out of deciding what size pattern to use for a specific plasma TV.

I started doing this on my VT50 if I ever finish I'll publish the results. It's time consuming for me to do. I should really code an app to do this for me, but I don't want to purchase an accupel (or similar) just to prove my TV isn't accurate wink.gif
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post #96 of 366 Old 01-27-2013, 11:54 AM
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http://tc-p65zt60.com/

http://tc-p65zt60.com/TC-P65VT60_Series.php


Interesting. Probably not MSRP. Looks like maybe 15% discounted prices. Last year VT50 was $3700.00 MSRP. My guess is that ZT60 MSRP will be closer to $4500.00. Still a bargain compared to what folks paid for for those 2008 TVs.
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post #97 of 366 Old 01-28-2013, 11:43 AM
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Perhaps a bargain compared to 'those' 2008 displays... But you could bet that these 'bargains' are not sold at a huge loss, like these 2008 tv's wink.gif
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post #98 of 366 Old 01-28-2013, 01:26 PM
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I'm hoping the ZT60 (and its future progeny) is the real deal. I have been reduced to purchasing all the boards in my Kuro for repair purposes (which sounds crazy, I know). As someone who appreciated the classic CRT projectors (G90, etc.) I have to say the Pioneer PRO-101FD really does exhibit a cinematic "film-like" look that the VT50 lacks. Perhaps the ZT60 will steal the crown at last. smile.gif

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post #99 of 366 Old 01-30-2013, 05:10 AM
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I doubt very much the crown will be stolen. It's probably getting "closer" to being worthy of sharing it of the first 9G's perhaps. But if it matches the processing and SD performance of an 8G Kuro - then thats a good start imho.
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post #100 of 366 Old 01-31-2013, 07:49 AM
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So I came across two things today that I thought might be of interest. The first is, Panasonic has deleted the VT-50 from its stock and advises you see a dealer.

http://shop.panasonic.com/shop/model/TC-P65VT50

The second is that Panasonic will incorporate DTS technology into its new line up, which is good, but I found their release a little more interesting...

http://www.socaltech.com/dts_wins_panasonic_tv_designs/s-0047510.html

1st Qt of this year! biggrin.gifcool.gif
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post #101 of 366 Old 01-31-2013, 09:02 AM
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Originally Posted by ChonRM View Post

So I came across two things today that I thought might be of interest. The first is, Panasonic has deleted the VT-50 from its stock and advises you see a dealer.

http://shop.panasonic.com/shop/model/TC-P65VT50

The second is that Panasonic will incorporate DTS technology into its new line up, which is good, but I found their release a little more interesting...

http://www.socaltech.com/dts_wins_panasonic_tv_designs/s-0047510.html

1st Qt of this year! biggrin.gifcool.gif

VT & ZT are mid Q2(Calendar).

Though I am an employee of Magnolia Home Theater, the views and opinions I express on this forum are those of my own and not my employer.
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post #102 of 366 Old 01-31-2013, 09:54 AM
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So then about like last years VT release. May sometime.

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post #103 of 366 Old 02-07-2013, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by SiGGy View Post

...
Calman should come up with a fully automated measurement system which does FULL color tracking (and gamma) but tests the TV at say 10 different APLs (this would be 340+ data points). Ranging from low to high. Then produce a full 3d graph to show the TVs real accuracy with gamma/color. This type of measurement would also take a lot of the guess work out of deciding what size pattern to use for a specific plasma TV.
...

Light Illusion, the poster you responded to, has brought this technology to the consumer (albeit high-ish end) market. I'm surprised he hasn't mention it here. They profile a display at 10 or 17 points per color cube axis (hue, sat, lum) and then use that profile to calculate LUTs for various gamma curves and color spaces. Price-wise it is competitive with CalMAN's Lumagen/C6 package though, for that price it lacks all the other processing that the Lumagens are capable of. Interesting development:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1437739/lightspace-cms-now-supports-lumagen-eecolor-3d-lut-4-all
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post #104 of 366 Old 02-09-2013, 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Scott Wilkinson View Post

Thanks so much for the kind words! The show we shot at CES is posted now at twit.tv/htg. To answer your question, the TV that impressed me the most (that wasn't UHD or OLED) was clearly the Panasonic ZT60. Can't wait to get my hands on one!
Hi Scott I just watched over two hurs of your content in particular the CES episodes. After such a long time out of the HT environment your informative question asking has given me new insight into the TV panels coming out. But now you have made my TV purchase this year so much harder, as there is so many great products due
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post #105 of 366 Old 02-09-2013, 09:33 PM
 
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$4000.00 for the best TV to date is cheap. Remember what folks were paying for the last gen Kuros years ago? Thousands more for the Kuro, smaller screen sizes, and compared to the ZT60, old school technology and features.
I wouldn't say KURO tech is old unless your talking apps and smart tv and 3D which is all crap anyway. If you can't make a great 2-D plasma that can blow away a five year technology than you shouldn't merge into a new market. Anyway the fact that KURO were last seen (unless bought used) in any store or anywhere 4+ years ago and NO plasma set or any other set for that matter can best that "old" technology...I'd say that these conpanys esecially panasonic can't match or beat them says alot about why you pay so much for a Pioneer. ZT60 will be a great tv....for 3 months until the banding,burn in, IR, flicker, ok processing, green blob, and worse blacks are noticed just like the VT50. If panasonic works on those 10 million things then it will be a great tv.
Not here to troll or whatever but stating facts that have been noted in the VT/ST/GT/UT forum by hundreds of people. So to me for people to crown this TV better than a kuro I think you'll be highly mistaken.
I'm so sure that a five year tv such as the KURO will still beat the ZT60 I'm going to but a used one just so I don't miss out on the last of the best products ever created. For those who call me a troll and all that kind stuff...you just har never had the oppurtunity to own a kuro or don't know anything about them because it's more than just black level the KURO does everything flawlessly.
Past 4 years Panasonic always has some type of issue and as for samsung as nice as they are dont even get me started. It's time to stop being cheap and give people what they deserve in the market today
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post #106 of 366 Old 02-09-2013, 10:16 PM
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Not here to troll or whatever but ...

Come on, deep down inside you know you are...

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post #107 of 366 Old 02-09-2013, 11:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Stu03 View Post

An interesting and honest point you made there. Not the first time i have read that about 8G black. The 8G Kuro imho is much more cinematic also. And has much better processing and components all round.

I agree with what you say about the 8G. i have a 5010 that is just awsome all around and my whites are nice whites as well like someone posted in the beggining of this thread about his 2007 Panasonic whites compared to models that came after that.. I find it has a different look than my 600m and 111. Blacks are not as good as the 9g's but the 8g has a different look going for it. Actually wish I had a 60" 8G panel. Ive read mention of LED/LCD and plasma comaprisons in this thread. There are not so good plasmas and not so good LED/LCD panels out there. I really love the look of a good plasma but am going to pass on the 2013 offerings and try something different.I am going to buy an old full aray local dimming LED from 2009 in excellent condition. My understanding from what I have read is its one of the best local dimming displays ever produced. Its price is cheap enough for me to experiment with that technology. I am sure the 2013 offereings for plasma will be great this year but will set my sights for 2014 if I am going to replace any of my Kuro's. Having said that I do plan on visiting the Magnolia store to check the ZT60 out.

Ive got some stuff
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post #108 of 366 Old 02-10-2013, 01:45 AM
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Aside from being 2D, what other differences will there be between the S60 and 3D model ST60?
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post #109 of 366 Old 02-10-2013, 04:37 AM
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Originally Posted by jmmesch View Post

I am keeping my calibrated Pioneer Kuro Elite Pro-151FD as long as it runs.
I'm so with you , even when it breaks or dies I wouldn't mind trying to get it repaired and keeping it even longer. I have not seen any TV on the market that I would replace it with. Even the the 5 extra inches in the current VT50 , I don't desire to own it.
I am however looking forward to this years 60 series. I have been doing Panasonic Plasma's since the beginning and think bang for the buck nothing current touches them.
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post #110 of 366 Old 02-10-2013, 04:43 AM
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Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

I agree, I have many clients with 9G Kuro who bought the VT50, the black level is still noticably better on the Kuro. One doesn't even need to have them sitting side by side to notice the difference.
The overall picture is better as well. The VT50 as good as it is sometimes looks cloudy. Out of the box settings is way more noticeable then after a proper ISF calibration.
Pioneer made something very special when they made the Kuro series. I so wish they would bring it back . Not with Sharp as I don't feel that set is completely worthy of the Elite badge. Yeah it's the overall best LED I have ever seen by far but it's flawed by it's technology.
Side note I heard Sharp is dropping the Elite? Scott? Anyone?
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post #111 of 366 Old 02-10-2013, 06:50 AM
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I agree with what you say about the 8G. i have a 5010 that is just awsome all around and my whites are nice whites as well like someone posted in the beggining of this thread about his 2007 Panasonic whites compared to models that came after that.. I find it has a different look than my 600m and 111. Blacks are not as good as the 9g's but the 8g has a different look going for it. Actually wish I had a 60" 8G panel. Ive read mention of LED/LCD and plasma comaprisons in this thread. There are not so good plasmas and not so good LED/LCD panels out there. I really love the look of a good plasma but am going to pass on the 2013 offerings and try something different.I am going to buy an old full aray local dimming LED from 2009 in excellent condition. My understanding from what I have read is its one of the best local dimming displays ever produced. Its price is cheap enough for me to experiment with that technology. I am sure the 2013 offereings for plasma will be great this year but will set my sights for 2014 if I am going to replace any of my Kuro's.

The only time i would ever consider another plasma by another manufacturer would be if i didn't own a Pioneer Kuro of either gen. Even the 7G had a great image although not as dark obviously. But there is (much) more to Pio plasmas than just black.

What would i be "upgrading" to i would need to ask myself...'perhaps' a (slight dip) in mll compared to an 8g that more than likley would not be noticable whatsoever unless side by side in a blacked room (how many people do that). Certainly not with lights on.

A few apps, touchpen, voice recognition - depends what your looking for i guess.

Kuro's can do 3D with external stuff, and it's getting better all the time with firmware updates and better glasses. If it's your thing, not mine yet, but one day maybe. It may only be 97% full out performance compared to dedicated displays but who cares imho. 3D shouldnt be taken reference seriously anyway imho, it's only a gimmick that's cool to watch now and again because you can and nothing else. Unless people were big time into video (most couldn't tell the difference because of being preoccupied with 3D). And not worrying about if it's being displayed 100% correctly or not) And it will still look night and day compared to 3D on LCD's in general regardless.

I don't believe there will be any "upgrade" as far as consumer plasma technology is concerned. Pios were expensive on release (especially in Europe/UK) but obviously hugely underpriced at the same time with regard, to tech and components quality. Why the 8's haven't been matched yet. Nevermind the 9's and "9.5’s". Black levels aside. There is an awful lot of catching up to do with (nearly) everything else. SD (processing) the most startingly obvious one. A long long way to go.

An upgrade to me would (only) be a 55"/60" 0mll 4k res OLED eek.gif

For sure though if i didn't own a 500a and a newer M soon... A zt/vt60 perhaps, or an f8500 would be the only real new consumer plasma options. Or simply if i just wanted much larger and newer i suppose.

Sure my three yr old boy would love to watch a 65" 3D image - but what he don't have he wont miss wink.gifbiggrin.gif

65"... That's one huge screen protector needed btw tongue.gif
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post #112 of 366 Old 02-10-2013, 06:43 PM
 
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Come on, deep down inside you know you are...
Maybe a little lol. But I speak the truth and the truth isn't bashing or trolling becuase I may not own as many tvs or be able to purchase one every year like most in here but I have a 5020 and at one point owned a 111fd and wish I kept the 111 as well. But my 5020 even with it's crippled settings I would purchase ten times over any product. Even OLED cause there's just something Pioneer did to these tvs that just can NEVER be matched unless they kidnap the pioneer techs and force them to work in panasonic. No LCD/LED/VT whatever will ever beat anything the Kuro has made from 7G-9.5G KUROS. I have a guy right now trying to sell me a 6020 for 1400$ but idk I feel like unless Kuros are brand new its too risky?? What you think!!?
Anyway I hope the ZT60 even though I proly can't afford it I hope the other 60 models do have a better year than panny did this year cuz all there tv this year suck hard with all the problems they have.
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post #113 of 366 Old 02-10-2013, 06:44 PM
 
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Sad that you can't match a tech that's 6+ years old let
Alone surpass it
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post #114 of 366 Old 02-10-2013, 06:46 PM
 
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And I saw the 65 inch VT50 at BB magnolia had them play Blu ray (yea I said BB) even though it's a terrible place to look at a TV in a proper setting it was set to THX and the guy knew what he was talking about who also owned a KURO. It never gave me a wow factor...don't get me wrong it was nice but not KURO nice
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post #115 of 366 Old 02-10-2013, 07:13 PM
 
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You guys think it's a mistake to try and purchase a used KURO?
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post #116 of 366 Old 02-10-2013, 07:28 PM
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Maybe a little lol. But I speak the truth and the truth isn't bashing or trolling becuase I may not own as many tvs or be able to purchase one every year like most in here but I have a 5020 and at one point owned a 111fd and wish I kept the 111 as well. But my 5020 even with it's crippled settings I would purchase ten times over any product. Even OLED cause there's just something Pioneer did to these tvs that just can NEVER be matched unless they kidnap the pioneer techs and force them to work in panasonic. No LCD/LED/VT whatever will ever beat anything the Kuro has made from 7G-9.5G KUROS. I have a guy right now trying to sell me a 6020 for 1400$ but idk I feel like unless Kuros are brand new its too risky?? What you think!!?
Anyway I hope the ZT60 even though I proly can't afford it I hope the other 60 models do have a better year than panny did this year cuz all there tv this year suck hard with all the problems they have.

Ummm, Panasonic have bought the Kuro technology from Pioneer and will be using the single-sheet-filter from the Kuro tech for the ZT60. Also many Pioneer tech, including my ex-colleague who was one of the Kuro engineers, have ben employed by Panasonic since about 4 years ago when Pioneer closed their TV division.
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post #117 of 366 Old 02-10-2013, 08:14 PM
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And I saw the 65 inch VT50 at BB magnolia had them play Blu ray (yea I said BB) even though it's a terrible place to look at a TV in a proper setting it was set to THX and the guy knew what he was talking about who also owned a KURO. It never gave me a wow factor...don't get me wrong it was nice but not KURO nice

I don't understand why Magnolia wouldn't be a good place to look at a TV. Low light, you had it in THX mode and you were playing a Blu-Ray. Sounds pretty ideal to me.

Though I am an employee of Magnolia Home Theater, the views and opinions I express on this forum are those of my own and not my employer.
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post #118 of 366 Old 02-10-2013, 08:17 PM
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Originally Posted by SeLfMaDe111985 View Post


Maybe a little lol. But I speak the truth and the truth isn't bashing or trolling becuase I may not own as many tvs or be able to purchase one every year like most in here but I have a 5020 and at one point owned a 111fd and wish I kept the 111 as well. But my 5020 even with it's crippled settings I would purchase ten times over any product. Even OLED cause there's just something Pioneer did to these tvs that just can NEVER be matched unless they kidnap the pioneer techs and force them to work in panasonic. No LCD/LED/VT whatever will ever beat anything the Kuro has made from 7G-9.5G KUROS. I have a guy right now trying to sell me a 6020 for 1400$ but idk I feel like unless Kuros are brand new its too risky?? What you think!!?
Anyway I hope the ZT60 even though I proly can't afford it I hope the other 60 models do have a better year than panny did this year cuz all there tv this year suck hard with all the problems they have.

It is your subjective opinion, not necessarily the truth. Saying that you would buy a Kuro over an OLED is just an example of your blind devotion to Pioneer. This tech isn't even out yet and you are already saying your Kuro is better. Popular opinion would tend to disagree with you.

Though I am an employee of Magnolia Home Theater, the views and opinions I express on this forum are those of my own and not my employer.
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post #119 of 366 Old 02-10-2013, 08:37 PM
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I was told by my dealer (ListenUp Store 1) to expect news about the ZT60 I preordered this week. I still think this model will be the last model rolled out and will come out in April.
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post #120 of 366 Old 02-10-2013, 09:24 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Speakerphile View Post

It is your subjective opinion, not necessarily the truth. Saying that you would buy a Kuro over an OLED is just an example of your blind devotion to Pioneer. This tech isn't even out yet and you are already saying your Kuro is better. Popular opinion would tend to disagree with you.
Well sir...you have no clue what OLED will even bring. Pioneer perfected the plasma tv. OLED will be a gagillion dollars and new technology always has issues. KURO is better than anything on the market today ANYTHING besides theatre room projectors. It's sad that people wait for OLED and these company's now can't even perfect plasma technology and you think OLED is gonna be good! Haha...I'm sure it will be nice looking but it will have it's issues. I'm just a consumer Im no videophile but what I do know is that Panny and Samshng have been making some crappy tvs. All these issues weight out any positives of these tvs. And OLED won't be out and good until like 5 years from now.

And Ummmmmmm panasonic is doing a pretty crappy job handling the kuro tech so tell your buddy to show them a few things about "quality". I'm sick of this profit crap. Cheap doesnt always mean good. If the economy didnt crumble Pioneer would still be here and everyone would be saying screw the ZT I'm getting a new 2013 kuro but there not and they would definitely be leaps and bounds above anyone.

and best buy suck that's why I said that. My 3 years neice knows more than those people. Plus they set there tvs up like crap. That's why i said it.
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