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post #181 of 199 Old 07-20-2015, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by rabident View Post
Spending so much on amplification just so you can have gobs of headroom that will never be used is silly. I don't want to be in a room with 3 speakers that are each capable of 126db @ 8m. That's a software glitch away from permanent hearing damage.
Agreed.
Not just a software glitch though. RCA plugs, miniplugs (3.5mm), and 1/4 inch phone jacks have an uncanny tendency to get yanked out, part way, in active environments. This can cause a VERY loud, startling buzz noise in some situations which doesn't go away until you fully re-seat the connection. When you have dozens of wires behind a hard to move rack this could take some time to remedy so you better have a quick means to an instant kill switch.

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there is no concept of "accounting for taste". We don't "pick" the level of bass, etc., any more than we pick the ending of a play. High fidelity means an unmodified, neutral, exact copy (or "reproduction") of the original artist's tonal balance, timing, dynamics, etc..

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post #182 of 199 Old 07-20-2015, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
I explained this to you once before I think but I will do it again since you are missing some understanding.

The M2 is a professional reference mastering monitor. It's designed to be used not only in the home audio reproduction capacity, but in the professional media content creation process.
I understand what you're saying, but this isn't gearsltz.. I didn't see anything in your post that made a convincing argument in favor of the M2's amplification options in the home.

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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
Consider you only gain 3db when you upgrade from 2500 watts to 5000 watts. It does not seem like much, but that 3db is potentially a big deal if it's the difference of clipping or compression or not in a live mix. The concept of headroom is solid, the need is real. Capability is not a bad thing, nor must you use it.
Consider I start out at 92dB with 1 watt. I gain 3dB going to 2 watts, and another 3dB at 4 watts. At $1/watt, that last 3dB gain costs me $2500. If I don't need it, never going to use it, then that money is better spent elsewhere.

I listen -10dB below reference. 75dB nominal with 20db of headroom means I need 95dB peak clean output at the LP. I'm about 5m back. With room gain, conservatively, about 12dB loss with distance? That's 107dB of output from the speaker. With 92dB sensitivity, that means I'm using less than 1 watt nominal. If I used all 20dB of headroom, I would need 32watts peak.

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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
You make an odd jump from the M2 being a much more capable speaker to the M2 causing permanent hearing damage, but I am not seeing the mental jump logic. You drive a car to work that probably goes faster than the speed limit right? Do you drive it to it's max speed often ? Then why not just buy a car that has a max speed of the speed limit ? It's probably a lot cheaper and more efficient.
For your car analogy, going over the speed limit is usable headroom. Nothing bad happens and we all do it sometimes. Buying a 5,000 watt amp for a set of 92dB speakers in the home is like buying a 330mph Top Fuel dragster for city driving.

Here is a list of amplifier power requirements from Crown. Source: http://www.crownaudio.com/how-much-amplifier-power

Total amplifier power required in various applications

  • Nearfield monitoring: 25 W for 85 dB SPL average (with 15 dB peaks), 250 W for 95 dB SPL average (with 15 dB peaks)
  • Home stereo: 150 W for 85 dB SPL average (with 15 dB peaks), 1,500 W for 95 dB SPL average (with 15 dB peaks)
  • Folk music in a coffee shop with 50 seats: 25 to 250 W
  • Folk music in a medium-size auditorium, club or house of worship with 150 to 250 seats: 95 to 250 W
  • Folk music at a small outdoor festival (50 feet from speaker to audience): 250 W
  • Pop or jazz music in a medium-size auditorium. club or house of worship with 150 to 250 seats: 250 to 750 W
  • Pop or jazz music in a 2000-seat concert hall: 400 to 1,200 W
  • Rock music in a medium-size auditorium, club or house of worship with 150 to 250 seats: At least 1,500 W
  • Rock music at a small outdoor festival (50 feet from speaker to audience): At least 1,000 to 3,000 W
  • Rock or heavy metal music in a stadium, arena or ampitheater (100 to 300 feet from speaker to audience): At least 4,000 to 15,000 W

As far as hearing loss, I've read 120dB for 30 seconds is enough to start causing hearing loss, which is cumulative, adding up over the years. Lower volumes over longer duration can cause damage as well. It's not like you hear that volume and bang, you're deaf. You may not even realize any damage was done.

Were you around for the DTS decoding bomb when HD discs first came out? It bypassed all settings on the SSP and output a horrible noise at max volume. There are also equipment failures which can end loudly. And people complain about loud pops all the time. With enough power behind pops, they become bangs.

The protection & limiting in the amp is designed to protect the drivers, not your ears. So it is concerning to me to have the upper end of stadium rock concert level amplification, just for LCR in a sealed room in my basement, while depending software working properly to ensure that all output capability is never used.
@Gooddoc , you're right, I'm not going for life like dynamics. If an IED goes off dangerously close, I'll let them convey the effects to me through story telling. I don't need the "you are there" experience and actually have my ears ringing from the explosion. Similar with a jet launching off a carrier or a car crash. Some people gleefully talk about their guests jumping out of their chairs when a gunshot goes off. That's not what I'm after.

 

 

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post #183 of 199 Old 07-21-2015, 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
...Realistic dynamics are never going to be replicated at any significant volume with 125 watts at typical listening distances...Just close a door briskly and you'll see peaks exceeding 120+dB. For example, an innocuous car door slam might cause a unweighted peak greater than 140 dB!.
125W can be sufficient for a system with a capable sub, as the big SPL from a door slam is at low freq.

With a XO at 80+ Hz, there are many satellites with 95+ dB efficiency that will reproduce the rest of the slam with full dynamics.

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post #184 of 199 Old 07-21-2015, 01:03 PM
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It does seem as if an inordinate amount of the cost of a full system is the amps.

I wonder how more affordable amps coupled with Dirac EQ would compare.

Noah
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post #185 of 199 Old 07-21-2015, 01:33 PM
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If you want to hear a car door slam, or that matter any other sound at 140 dB SPL, reproduced at home, you are going to have to make your own private recordings of it. There are no commercially available recordings of either music nor movies, in any format, which are recorded with such an incredibly low average music level such that 140 dB undistorted peaks can be accommodated.

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there is no concept of "accounting for taste". We don't "pick" the level of bass, etc., any more than we pick the ending of a play. High fidelity means an unmodified, neutral, exact copy (or "reproduction") of the original artist's tonal balance, timing, dynamics, etc..
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post #186 of 199 Old 07-21-2015, 01:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabident View Post
I understand what you're saying, but this isn't gearsltz.. I didn't see anything in your post that made a convincing argument in favor of the M2's amplification options in the home.



Consider I start out at 92dB with 1 watt. I gain 3dB going to 2 watts, and another 3dB at 4 watts. At $1/watt, that last 3dB gain costs me $2500. If I don't need it, never going to use it, then that money is better spent elsewhere.

I listen -10dB below reference. 75dB nominal with 20db of headroom means I need 95dB peak clean output at the LP. I'm about 5m back. With room gain, conservatively, about 12dB loss with distance? That's 107dB of output from the speaker. With 92dB sensitivity, that means I'm using less than 1 watt nominal. If I used all 20dB of headroom, I would need 32watts peak.



For your car analogy, going over the speed limit is usable headroom. Nothing bad happens and we all do it sometimes. Buying a 5,000 watt amp for a set of 92dB speakers in the home is like buying a 330mph Top Fuel dragster for city driving.

Here is a list of amplifier power requirements from Crown. Source: http://www.crownaudio.com/how-much-amplifier-power

Total amplifier power required in various applications

  • Nearfield monitoring: 25 W for 85 dB SPL average (with 15 dB peaks), 250 W for 95 dB SPL average (with 15 dB peaks)
  • Home stereo: 150 W for 85 dB SPL average (with 15 dB peaks), 1,500 W for 95 dB SPL average (with 15 dB peaks)
  • Folk music in a coffee shop with 50 seats: 25 to 250 W
  • Folk music in a medium-size auditorium, club or house of worship with 150 to 250 seats: 95 to 250 W
  • Folk music at a small outdoor festival (50 feet from speaker to audience): 250 W
  • Pop or jazz music in a medium-size auditorium. club or house of worship with 150 to 250 seats: 250 to 750 W
  • Pop or jazz music in a 2000-seat concert hall: 400 to 1,200 W
  • Rock music in a medium-size auditorium, club or house of worship with 150 to 250 seats: At least 1,500 W
  • Rock music at a small outdoor festival (50 feet from speaker to audience): At least 1,000 to 3,000 W
  • Rock or heavy metal music in a stadium, arena or ampitheater (100 to 300 feet from speaker to audience): At least 4,000 to 15,000 W

As far as hearing loss, I've read 120dB for 30 seconds is enough to start causing hearing loss, which is cumulative, adding up over the years. Lower volumes over longer duration can cause damage as well. It's not like you hear that volume and bang, you're deaf. You may not even realize any damage was done.

Were you around for the DTS decoding bomb when HD discs first came out? It bypassed all settings on the SSP and output a horrible noise at max volume. There are also equipment failures which can end loudly. And people complain about loud pops all the time. With enough power behind pops, they become bangs.

The protection & limiting in the amp is designed to protect the drivers, not your ears. So it is concerning to me to have the upper end of stadium rock concert level amplification, just for LCR in a sealed room in my basement, while depending software working properly to ensure that all output capability is never used.
@Gooddoc , you're right, I'm not going for life like dynamics. If an IED goes off dangerously close, I'll let them convey the effects to me through story telling. I don't need the "you are there" experience and actually have my ears ringing from the explosion. Similar with a jet launching off a carrier or a car crash. Some people gleefully talk about their guests jumping out of their chairs when a gunshot goes off. That's not what I'm after.
Everyone has their priorities for sure. My only point was that the M2 amp power is not "unused headroom" as you suggested. Any more than your 32 watts is unused headroom. It's just not needed for the volumes you listen.

But even listening to music at 90 dB average, which is loud, but not even close to being considered "rock concert" levels will see peaks up to 120 dB with highly dynamic, well mastered, material. The M2's are perfectly amplified and designed to replicate that music without power compression of peaks.

The whole software or equipment malfunction thing might matter if I didn't have doors leading out of my room .
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post #187 of 199 Old 07-21-2015, 06:56 PM
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
125W can be sufficient for a system with a capable sub, as the big SPL from a door slam is at low freq.

With a XO at 80+ Hz, there are many satellites with 95+ dB efficiency that will reproduce the rest of the slam with full dynamics.
I've been at this speaker game for a while, and have heard a fairly good range of high output speakers, satellelite and ful range. None of them could replicate full dynamics of real life sounds. The system and the speakers simply aren't capable of it.

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It does seem as if an inordinate amount of the cost of a full system is the amps.

I wonder how more affordable amps coupled with Dirac EQ would compare.
I have Dirac, not sure how you're thinking it might help, but I don't use it for the M2's anymore except for ~200Hz and below.
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Would be awesome if JBL Pro would put the M2 XO and DSP settings in a DBX Driverack so the end user could employ any amps they want. Half the cost of an M2 setup is the amps (at least on the professional side of the JBL house). While the iTechs are great amps they may be overkill for most - but not all - home settings.

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post #189 of 199 Old 07-22-2015, 05:04 AM
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708i is aimed at that'^.

M2 is take no prisoners, make no compromise approach.
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post #190 of 199 Old 07-22-2015, 11:41 AM
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I've been at this speaker game for a while, and have heard a fairly good range of high output speakers, satellelite and ful range. None of them could replicate full dynamics of real life sounds. The system and the speakers simply aren't capable of it.
I was referring specifically to a car door slam; other real events may be a different matter.

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I have Dirac, not sure how you're thinking it might help, but I don't use it for the M2's anymore except for ~200Hz and below.
I meant to use amps that give more W/$ than the Crowns, and use Dirac in lieu of their DSP.

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post #191 of 199 Old 07-22-2015, 07:13 PM
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My only point was that the M2 amp power is not "unused headroom" as you suggested. Any more than your 32 watts is unused headroom. It's just not needed for the volumes you listen..
If it's not needed for whatever reason then it won't be used which makes it unused headroom. If I only need 32 watts for M2's in my room then forcing me to buy a 5,000 watt amp results in 4968 watts of unneeded / unused headroom. It's not a bargain @ $1/watt if have to buy 5,000 when I only need 32.

Normally if you don't need 5,000 watts then you just don't buy a big of amp. But that's the rub with JBL and the M2's. Regardless of your needs, if you want the speaker, you have to spend a minimum of $5,000 on amplification for a $6,000 speaker.

While the speaker itself may represent the pinnacle of engineering, the supporting electronics appear to be cobbled together from existing Harman products. Why does the M2 tweeter need as much power as the 15" woofer? Did JBL just design the most inefficient compression driver the world has ever seen, or are they doing their best with amplification within Harman's stables? The AES input on the iTechs are suboptimal for HT, as is the extra AD / DA conversion if you run analog instead. But rather than cooperate with SOTA SSP manufactures on an uncompromising solution, you instead get the best Harman can do and that's your only option because it's a condition for the sale of the speaker.

It's unfortunate. They stopped short of actually designing amps & crossovers for the M2. But rather than leverage the flexibility that buys, they've put together specific use cases with the packaged Harman electronics. The electronics make up such a disproportionally large part of the price, that if they don't closely match your needs, it's hard to justify.

 

 

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post #192 of 199 Old 07-22-2015, 09:01 PM
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I was referring specifically to a car door slam; other real events may be a different matter.



I meant to use amps that give more W/$ than the Crowns, and use Dirac in lieu of their DSP.
Yeah, agreed, that would be nice. But it's not how JBL decided to do it, so as they say, it is what it is .
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post #193 of 199 Old 07-22-2015, 09:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabident View Post
If it's not needed for whatever reason then it won't be used which makes it unused headroom. If I only need 32 watts for M2's in my room then forcing me to buy a 5,000 watt amp results in 4968 watts of unneeded / unused headroom. It's not a bargain @ $1/watt if have to buy 5,000 when I only need 32.

Normally if you don't need 5,000 watts then you just don't buy a big of amp. But that's the rub with JBL and the M2's. Regardless of your needs, if you want the speaker, you have to spend a minimum of $5,000 on amplification for a $6,000 speaker.

While the speaker itself may represent the pinnacle of engineering, the supporting electronics appear to be cobbled together from existing Harman products. Why does the M2 tweeter need as much power as the 15" woofer? Did JBL just design the most inefficient compression driver the world has ever seen, or are they doing their best with amplification within Harman's stables? The AES input on the iTechs are suboptimal for HT, as is the extra AD / DA conversion if you run analog instead. But rather than cooperate with SOTA SSP manufactures on an uncompromising solution, you instead get the best Harman can do and that's your only option because it's a condition for the sale of the speaker.

It's unfortunate. They stopped short of actually designing amps & crossovers for the M2. But rather than leverage the flexibility that buys, they've put together specific use cases with the packaged Harman electronics. The electronics make up such a disproportionally large part of the price, that if they don't closely match your needs, it's hard to justify.
Yeah, good analysis. Unfortunately, it's one of those things you accept or not. The reality is the speaker wasn't designed with you in mind, it was purpose built for studio monitoring where none of its capabilities, amp or otherwise, would be wasted. You mention HT, but they weren't designed for HT, so of course it's not going to make sense unless you realize that.

If you want a true mid-field full range studio monitor it will match your needs, otherwise there's better choices out there if value is a concern.

I would make magic smoke from your B&W's within a month, max. So the M2's work really well for me. Not so much for you.
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post #194 of 199 Old 07-22-2015, 10:36 PM
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Why does the M2 tweeter need as much power as the 15" woofer?.
Not only does it not need as much power as the woofer it also is never sent as much, in fact the D2430K tweeter (also used in some of their large venue line arrays) has a maximum power handling capability of 200 watts using AES standards.


http://d27vj430nutdmd.cloudfront.net...8/99548-32.pdf

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there is no concept of "accounting for taste". We don't "pick" the level of bass, etc., any more than we pick the ending of a play. High fidelity means an unmodified, neutral, exact copy (or "reproduction") of the original artist's tonal balance, timing, dynamics, etc..

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post #195 of 199 Old 07-23-2015, 04:39 PM
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Not only does it not need as much power as the woofer it also is never sent as much, in fact the D2430K tweeter (also used in some of their large venue line arrays) has a maximum power handling capability of 200 watts using AES standards.


http://d27vj430nutdmd.cloudfront.net...8/99548-32.pdf
They sized the amp for the woofer, not the CD. It makes sense to use an existing amp design rather than spend development efforts on something new. JBL is in business to make money, and they know the price the pro market will accept for a design of this calibre. Making it as inexpensively as possible increases profit margins. Business 101.

The amps are sized to leave the drivers as the limiting factor in the chain. Personally, I like that approach. Of course it could be done differently, but it wasn't.
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If over charging the consumer for what's actually needed to power the tweeter in terms of wattage is the goal, they've done a fantastic job.

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there is no concept of "accounting for taste". We don't "pick" the level of bass, etc., any more than we pick the ending of a play. High fidelity means an unmodified, neutral, exact copy (or "reproduction") of the original artist's tonal balance, timing, dynamics, etc..

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post #197 of 199 Old 07-23-2015, 05:54 PM
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Crown amps are hardly over priced
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post #198 of 199 Old 07-23-2015, 08:06 PM
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If over charging the consumer for what's actually needed to power the tweeter in terms of wattage is the goal, they've done a fantastic job.
They didn't overcharge me. I paid the exact price that I agreed to. If anyone's been overcharged above the price they agreed to they they need to ask for a refund.

Besides, did you ever stop to think that they might have had to charge more to actually design amps specific for the M2?
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Itech Amps

Thought I would put my two cents worth in on the I-Tech amps: I was looking to replace my 30 year old Threshold S-500 last year. It was still in good condition, as the electrolytics had been replaced earlier in the year. Anyway, the short of it is I decided to replace it with a modern design. The I-Tech 5000HD found it's way here to my place after considerable consternation. My room contains three different speaker systems, filling an addiction that I have. On one system, 4333Bs, the amp drivers the bottom end in the bi-amp mode. I am using the crossover function in the amp. Also using the PEQ for room equalization,+ 6 inches of time delay for the woofer to mid horn delay. These old beasts sound outstanding IMO. I also use the amp on a pair of modified 4425s for horn equalization. Again, those late eighties "monitors" sound marvy for their vintage. The point is, 50 different setups can be stored and recalled in the amp. Use this amp also on a pair of LSR6332s with no EQ and the digital AES input. The AES input blows away my Audio Research DAC-1 and my Benchmark DAC1-HDR, hands down. Best buy I have made in a while!

Regards,

John
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