Official AVS Coverage of Sony PS4 Launch Event - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 154 Old 02-20-2013, 09:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Manic_D View Post

Just pointing that out (demos running on PCs) since Mark H said he was in the room with "an actual PS4."

Right no ps4 within thousands of miles prolly.

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post #92 of 154 Old 02-20-2013, 09:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Yes, there was a real PS4 there, playing through a 4K projector. Hundreds of Japanese media didn't fly to NYC to watch some guys on stage play games on a PC. Where are you getting this stuff? Never mind, I found it... http://www.gamepur.com/news/10450-new-watch-dogs-demo-was-running-pc-and-not-ps4-ubisoft.html

The one demo that did not look like picture-perfect 4K was run on a PC and I could tell immediately. I'd say the PS4 BLEW AWAY the PC graphics on display. I also sincerely doubt they used a crappy PC for the Watch Dogs demo - more than likely it was a top-notch gaming rig. The difference is night and day, regardless. The genuine PS4 games, played on the real-deal hardware, are perfect-looking even in beta.

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Just pointing that out (demos running on PCs) since Mark H said he was in the room with "an actual PS4."

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post #93 of 154 Old 02-20-2013, 09:33 PM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post

....I chatted up some of the Sony 'staff' and the consensus is the PS4 will gain BDXL capability as soon as the standards are worked out. Whether or not that happens before launch is an open question, but thanks to the inclusion of USB 3.0 adding a drive when they do become available is also not a problem.

Thanks Mark, another sensible and relevant post. Using USB 3.0 will be a viable way of adding 4k blu-ray at a later date (assuming it comes to fruition.)
And should make us A/V types here a bit happier. smile.gif
On the other hand there would need to be an improvement to the HDMI output spec if the full potential benefits of 4k blu-ray are to be realised, assuming that HDMI v2.0 is not used in the initial PS4.
It's hard to get away from the belief that hardware upgrades are something Sony (and Microsoft) need to face up to.
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post #94 of 154 Old 02-20-2013, 09:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Read my post. You don't want to be spreading false rumors, do you? Only Watch Dogs was demoed on a PC. It was stated clearly that we were looking at real-time graphics coming from a PS4.
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Right no ps4 within thousands of miles prolly.

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post #95 of 154 Old 02-20-2013, 10:00 PM
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Thanks for the info Mark, makes me have restored faith in the PS4! Games in 4k..madness!

No subwoofer I've heard has been able to produce the bass I've experienced in the Corps!

Must..stop...buying...every bluray release...
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post #96 of 154 Old 02-20-2013, 10:04 PM
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post #97 of 154 Old 02-20-2013, 10:23 PM - Thread Starter
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I am not sure if the games are natively rendered in 4K. I only confirmed that what I saw was projected in 4K. It is more likely the game graphics are perfectly rendered 1080/60p or 1440/60p, upscaled to 4K. Either way, the genuine PS4 graphics looked considerably better on the 4K big screen than on the 1080p screens underneath it.

Three screenshots, taken with a Sony NEX-5N. 4 megapixel JPEG files @ ISO 1600








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Thanks for the info Mark, makes me have restored faith in the PS4! Games in 4k..madness!

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post #98 of 154 Old 02-20-2013, 10:52 PM
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Since this issue has been raised here it is worth looking at games being played at 4k.
I have a PC that is at least 3 years old. Intel E8400 CPU, AMD 5850 graphics card and only 4Gb of DDR2 Ram yet I have played Skyrim at a resolution of 5760 x1080 on a 3 monitor eyefinity setup.
AFAIK, the AMD 7870 can play games at a resolution of 5760x2160 on a 6 monitor setup, way more than 4096x2160 or 4k.
http://steamcommunity.com/app/221410/discussions/4/846940248282361073/

Whilst Crysis 3 may not be the greatest experience at 4k, the great majority of games will be OK.
Clearly the published specs for the PS4 should be fine for 4k gaming.
And as for 4k video, the PS4 should be able to chew it up and spit it out with both arms AND its legs tied behind its back smile.gif, as will any up-to-date PC, with a decent graphics card of course.

Disclaimer: I do not own a PS3 and have NO intention of buying a PS4.
I will wait until Oppo come out with their 4k player, thank you very much. smile.gif
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post #99 of 154 Old 02-21-2013, 03:36 AM
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@ the moment $300-$600 for a 1TB 2.5" Hard drive & $2000-$2500:eek: for 1TB 2.5" SSD
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post #100 of 154 Old 02-21-2013, 05:40 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post

Those are accurate statements. Sony is not talking about hardware specifics yet. The optical drive is clearly not the focus of this system, predicting what the user wants and pre-downloading content in anticipation is the strategy Sony outlined repeatedly. They were very adamant that the new system will not suffer from extended load times. Official specs only mention a 6X BD player. I chatted up some of the Sony 'staff' and the consensus is the PS4 will gain BDXL capability as soon as the standards are worked out. Whether or not that happens before launch is an open question, but thanks to the inclusion of USB 3.0 adding a drive when they do become available is also not a problem.

What do you mean adding a drive? Like a add on? And what's so special about USB 3.0?

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post #101 of 154 Old 02-21-2013, 05:50 AM - Thread Starter
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You could go buy a BDXL compatible external Blu-ray drive and plug in into your PS4, if that ends up being a platform for UHD movies. There are three USB 3.0 ports on the PS4. USB 3.0 gives you the bandwidth to read data at a faster rate, so external drives can operated at full speed. The PS4 is touted as a "supercharged PC", why would Sony use USB 2.0 which essentially obsolete? I have a funny feeling the built-in optical drive is there as a legacy consideration and little more.
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What do you mean adding a drive? Like a add on? And what's so special about USB 3.0?

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post #102 of 154 Old 02-21-2013, 07:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post

No BDXL drive in the specs., no mention of 2160p movie playback.

Sounds like a baby step towards the PS5, as I feared.

It sure didn't seem like that driving game had the photo realism of that old man. A human face is a lot different than a car in the complexity of the rendering and animation in real time. None of the other games had real game play at that level... just the cut scenes.

Actually, you can infer from the official specs that it does havs a BDXL drive. Sony does not even make a regular BD drive that only reads at 8xDVD anymore. Going to the product page it looks like it will be using one of the slim notebook BD drives probably some version of the BD-5850H. It can read Quad layer 128GB disc and write triple layer 100GB BDXL. If they are able to "stamp" dual layer they should be able to stamp triple and quad layer as well.
http://www.sony-optiarc.eu/products/bluraydrivesnotebooks.html

As for the 4K 2160p movie playback, they cost to add it would be minimal and if they intend for it to have a ten year life span would be foolish not to include. As you can see the screenshots of Killzone are rendered in 3840 × 2160 resolution. Now it is doubtfully the the game would actual run in the resolution because of frame rate issues, but 4K movie playback should be no problem. Those demos were being shown at 4K resolution, so all signs still point to it 4K happening.


http://www.gamesaktuell.de/screenshots/original/2013/02/_bmUploads_2013-02-21_1454_KZ4_Wall.jpg
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post #103 of 154 Old 02-21-2013, 08:46 AM
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Ps4 can output 4k .... Confirmed by sony. But no games are currently being developed in that resolution

http://www.engadget.com/2013/02/21/playstation-4-4ktv/
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post #104 of 154 Old 02-21-2013, 08:54 AM
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Very good point sytech:) I can not find any other 6x BD Rom read speed from other manufacturers that does not read BDXL as well:D
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post #105 of 154 Old 02-21-2013, 09:01 AM
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The only fly in the ointment is what kind of HDMI chipset will be included in the console itself? You could add a BDXL drive if need be (if it is just a regular BD drive), but if the HDMI chipset won't handle the output when the specs are finalized... Either they'll have to come out with a PS4 "slim" biggrin.gif with UHD media capabilities or they'll have to dumb down UHD home video to meet outdated HDMI specs.

We'll see if the PS4 is locked down before or after the industry-wide UHD specs are ironed out.

That's why I really detest the whole HDMI "thing." It should have been open-source (with an encrypted signal to satisfy those Hollywood lawyers) fire-wire or something similar with an upgradable firmware chipset.


As for rendered game graphics... clueless or not (thanks T2k), I have read up a bit on photo-realistic facial and motion-captured CGI graphics and animation for movies (like Avatar and Weta's Gollum) and Sony would still need one heck of a powerful CPU/GPU to render an entire interactive, multi-player game with spatial audio surround cues with the level of Hollywood-grade, human-like detail and movement shown in this demo here:



Currently, short animated clips like this (but a full scene, not just one head) could be rendered on the PC platform running multiple Intel Xeon enterprise multi-core/multi-thread processors and the very latest GPU engines, but you'd still need more RAM and more hard drive space (a lot more) than the PS4 has included. Weta, PIXAR, ILM, etc. use workstations not just one, basic computer for something as elaborate as what gamers wish for.

Car games are another matter... the shapes and surfaces are more basic than human skin and muscle with wrinkles, subtle plays of light and translucency, somewhat random muscle movement, the effects of gravity on said movement, etc. etc. You're trying to trick the human senses into believing a synthetic, animated object is a living, breathing being. Pretty tough to do. An inanimate object is much easier.

Will this happen someday? Sure! Moore's Law. Just not right now.

While I did watch a live stream, they did cut away to the actual video being fed into the projectors. It gave you some idea of the texturing in the various demos.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
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post #106 of 154 Old 02-21-2013, 09:12 AM
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Halleluja, Sony has confirmed to Eurogamer that they will NOT block used games in any way, shape or form: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-02-21-sony-tells-eurogamer-playstation-4-will-not-block-used-games

PS: as far as 4K goes HDMI v1.4 already supports 4K@24Hz so movies are already supported, it's obvious. Full 60fps support is coming in HDMI 2.0 which is pretty much done and expected to be finalized & published this year so Sony, as one of the biggest 4K/UHD vendor, most likely will build use the appropriate chipset in PS4 so even IF it gets postponed they can still upgrade to HDMI 2.0 with a firmware upgrade later.
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post #107 of 154 Old 02-21-2013, 09:19 AM - Thread Starter
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That's one heck of a broadband connection you have, uncompressed 1080/30p straight from the show to your computer.

I also watched the 'shared' video from the presentation. It is literally like watching an IMAX movie on youtube. There's nothing to judge, it looks terrible compared to the real thing.

HDMI 1.4 will work at launch, will likely get upgraded later.
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The only fly in the ointment is what kind of HDMI chipset will be included in the console itself? You could add a BDXL drive if need be (if it is just a regular BD drive), but if the HDMI chipset won't handle the output when the specs are finalized... Either they'll have to come out with a PS4 "slim" biggrin.gif with UHD media capabilities or they'll have to dumb down UHD home video to meet outdated HDMI specs.

While I did watch a live stream, they did cut away to the actual video being fed into the projectors. It gave you some idea of the texturing in the various demos.

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post #108 of 154 Old 02-21-2013, 09:25 AM
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"Update on the status of the next version of the HDMI Specification The HDMI Forum, Inc. was launched in October 2011 to allow for broad industry participation in the development of the future versions of the HDMI Specification. Currently, its 83 Members are actively and collectively working on finalizing the next version of the HDMI Specification. HDMI Forum, Inc. has targeted the first half of 2013 for the release of the next version of the HDMI Specification."

http://www.hdmi.org/press/press_release.aspx?prid=132

PS4 could have the newest HDMI spec in time for a 2013 holiday release
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post #109 of 154 Old 02-21-2013, 09:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

That's one heck of a broadband connection you have, uncompressed 1080/30p straight from the show to your computer.

I also watched the 'shared' video from the presentation. It is literally like watching an IMAX movie on youtube. There's nothing to judge, it looks terrible compared to the real thing.

HDMI 1.4 will work at launch, will likely get upgraded later.

Yes, I saw uncompressed 2k resolution video on a live stream. rolleyes.gif Come on! You seem like you're just trying to be snarky.

On the Ustream feed I saw, the cutaways at least gave you a "general" idea.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
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post #110 of 154 Old 02-21-2013, 09:36 AM - Thread Starter
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It was only a little bit of snark. Considering all the concern on this forum about the quality of highly compressed online video, and having done some comparisons myself between iTunes and Blu-ray, I'm simply warning against drawing conclusions about texture detail and stuff like that from a streaming video. Far too much detail was lost.
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Yes, I saw uncompressed 2k resolution video on a live stream. rolleyes.gif Come on! You seem like you're just trying to be snarky.

On the Ustream feed I saw, the cutaways at least gave you a "general" idea.

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post #111 of 154 Old 02-21-2013, 09:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

It was only a little bit of snark. With all the concern on this forum about compressed video, and having done some comparisons myself between iTunes and Blu-ray, I'm simply warning against drawing conclusions about texture detail and stuff like that from a streaming video. Far too much detail was lost.

Sony just confirmed to Joystiq that 4K is already there for movies: http://www.joystiq.com/2013/02/21/ps4-will-output-video-in-4k-but-not-games/
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post #112 of 154 Old 02-21-2013, 09:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Well there you go. End of speculation. Bravo Sony, now they just need to execute on their "available Holiday 2013" promise.
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Sony just confirmed to Joystiq that 4K is already there for movies: http://www.joystiq.com/2013/02/21/ps4-will-output-video-in-4k-but-not-games/

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post #113 of 154 Old 02-21-2013, 09:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T2k View Post

Sony just confirmed to Joystiq that 4K is already there for movies: http://www.joystiq.com/2013/02/21/ps4-will-output-video-in-4k-but-not-games/

Will they hold off the final hardware choices until the HDMI standards body has released their new HDMI specs.? Will the BDA be ready in time with its UHD specs., if they even adopt a physical disc standard using stamped BDXL media (with UHD, HFR, object-oriented sound, etc.)?

Unfortunately, the PS3 was released before Sony had access to the latest HDMI chips during the initial phase of Blu-ray (limiting the PS3 to internal lossless soundtrack decoding some months after the rollout of the fat player). And we all know the PS3 was the BDA's secret weapon in stealthily getting BD drives into the hands of thousands of users. It even came with a Blu-ray title in the box (even if it was only "Talladega Nights: The Ballad of Ricky Bobby" LOL!).

Will the BDA try to use the PS4 the same way for UHD media? Will Hollywood go along willingly this time? These are all important questions IMHO.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
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post #114 of 154 Old 02-21-2013, 09:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

Well there you go. End of speculation. Bravo Sony, now they just need to execute on their "available Holiday 2013" promise.

I fully agree, Sony is quickly fulfilling every request we were worked up about here, they just need to deliver on these promises... 4K output, nice gaming graphics, excellent social interaction (I love the idea of helping out my buddy in his game at some tricky point), dedicated hardware for almost every feature you can ask for... the only remaining question is the final media hub feature list but, understandably, they will hold it close to their chest until they see what MS is up to... other than that it's all about execution, I agree, as always, it is the most important part.
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post #115 of 154 Old 02-21-2013, 09:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post

Will they hold off the final hardware choices until the HDMI standards body has released their new HDMI specs.? Will the BDA be ready in time with its UHD specs., if they even adopt a physical disc standard using stamped BDXL media (with UHD, HFR, object-oriented sound, etc.)?

Unfortunately, the PS3 was released before Sony had access to the latest HDMI chips during the initial phase of Blu-ray (limiting the PS3 to internal lossless soundtrack decoding some months after the rollout of the fat player). And we all know the PS3 was the BDA's secret weapon in stealthily getting BD drives into the hands of thousands of users. It even came with a Blu-ray title in the box (even if it was only "Talladega Nights: The Ballad of Ricky Bobby" LOL!).

Will the BDA try to use the PS4 the same way for UHD media? Will Hollywood go along willingly this time? These are all important questions IMHO.

Nobody knows but I failed to see how Sony, the single most important vendor behind Blu-Ray, wouldn't think of all these things well ahead when building its most important device for the next 5-6 years, in essence its 'make-or-brake' product.
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post #116 of 154 Old 02-21-2013, 10:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T2k View Post

Nobody knows but I failed to see how Sony, the single most important vendor behind Blu-Ray, wouldn't think of all these things well ahead when building its most important device for the next 5-6 years, in essence its 'make-or-brake' product.

I hope so, I really do.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
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post #117 of 154 Old 02-21-2013, 10:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Sony has 4K TV sets about to hit store shelves. I asked around before I left the presentation last night and consensus was that the HDMI controller would be upgraded through firmware. Seems likely, even if it is pure speculation at this point. Everything is connected now, so firmware updates are not tough to implement. I would not be surprised if Sony made sure all their 4K capable devices had the ability to update the HDMI spec.
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Nobody knows but I failed to see how Sony, the single most important vendor behind Blu-Ray, wouldn't think of all these things well ahead when building its most important device for the next 5-6 years, in essence its 'make-or-brake' product.

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post #118 of 154 Old 02-21-2013, 10:17 AM
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There's also that new WiFi spec 802.11ac, scheduled for final approval sometime in 2013
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post #119 of 154 Old 02-21-2013, 10:32 AM
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Imagic, can you give me your analysis on the short demo capcom showed called deep down. Yesterday people thought it was a target render (cg) and now today there was a confirmation saying that it was indeed real time. Do you have any info about this game? I would say it looks much better than kz: shadow.
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post #120 of 154 Old 02-21-2013, 10:50 AM - Thread Starter
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The Capcom demo was indeed played in real time and it highlighted their new Panta Rhei engine. It looked great, smooth gradients, utterly realistic lens blur. I think I should let some pictures do the talking.










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Imagic, can you give me your analysis on the short demo capcom showed called deep down. Yesterday people thought it was a target render (cg) and now today there was a confirmation saying that it was indeed real time. Do you have any info about this game? I would say it looks much better than kz: shadow.

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