Netflix Plans to Stream 4K Within Two Years - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 142 Old 03-20-2013, 03:47 PM
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Originally Posted by undecided View Post

The decision to withold SuperHD from Comcast subscribers is a Netflix decision not a Comcast decision.

Comcast subscribers can stream the old 4800 kbps 1080P streams and newer (supposedly equivalent quality) 3850 kbps 1080P streams - however Netflix is withholding the (supposedly) higher quality 5800 kps SuperHD from ISPs (like Comcast) who haven't signed up for Netflix's Open Connect.

The issue has been debated ad nauseam here http://www.avsforum.com/t/1450510/netflix-adds-3d-and-super-hd
It is Comcast's decision not to join the FREE OCN, and not Netflix's. It is available should they choose to join, but they have declined. Netflix is doing them a favor just offering to alleviate the strain that SHD and 3d will have on the ISP.

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post #92 of 142 Old 03-20-2013, 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted by PeteyTheStriker View Post

Netflix cant even get closed captioning going which I find more important to the hearing impaired community then having 4k. I myself am not hearing impaired but know a few people that are, and its insulting that youtube can do it without even any major effort, while this company still cant. Its been promising closed captioning for at least 4 years now, and finally is saying 2014 which is still not a hard coded date. It was enough for me to cancel my subscription, and also the whole price change fiasco last year helped contribute to me cancelling my subscription. I know some of you guys might find it weird but after being friends/having family with hearing issues and getting used to seeing close captioning on everything you watch its just weird not seeing it. Also when they would come over we could not watch anything from netflix, cause I would never turn on a movie that only half the group could follow along with.
Uuuuum, Netflix does have CC. I just double checked before posting. There is a subtitles option.

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post #93 of 142 Old 03-20-2013, 04:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Icon13 View Post

All apologies. Thank you for the results. Just had to make sure you were not withholding info to save face.

Oscar's Oasis 3d is a prime example of 3d. Now the question is; do you need OCN and a supported device, or will any 3d TV work that is networked through the OCN?

Ppps: Proving you were right after the fact does not conclude that you were not scared to check and provide us the info at the cost of being wrong initially wink.gif

Hence the "winky" smilie. I don't mind to be proven wrong, it's one of many ways I can learn new things. smile.gif

I'm just theorizing here, since SBS does not take anymore bandwidth than regular 2D HD, I don't see any technical reason for not being able to watch Netflix SBS on any 3D TV that is network through OCN. Unless, of course, Netflix put a flag to not stream 3D unless the device is supported.

Unfortunately I won't be able to try this until Monday.

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post #94 of 142 Old 03-20-2013, 04:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Icon13 View Post

Uuuuum, Netflix does have CC. I just double checked before posting. There is a subtitles option.

That is correct. However, if your device does not support Netflix newer software that allows CC, then you'll never be able to get the CC information. My 2011 Sony TV's Netflix does not give me CC option but my 2012 Sony TV's Netflix gives that option.

If you're using PS3 or WDTV Live, make sure you update your firmware (the Netflix app piggybacks on the firmware update) so you can get CC.
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post #95 of 142 Old 03-20-2013, 07:53 PM
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Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

Hence the "winky" smilie. I don't mind to be proven wrong, it's one of many ways I can learn new things. smile.gif

I'm just theorizing here, since SBS does not take anymore bandwidth than regular 2D HD, I don't see any technical reason for not being able to watch Netflix SBS on any 3D TV that is network through OCN. Unless, of course, Netflix put a flag to not stream 3D unless the device is supported.

Unfortunately I won't be able to try this until Monday.
But isn't SBS actually two complete HD L/R images? I am assuming when viewing SBS in 2D (both L/R frames are shown next to each other) each full HD image is downscaled to fit the screen. Each frame is shown natively when you enable 3D mode on your TV. The refresh rate is upped to 120hz, and thus twice as many frames, so twice as much data as 2D @ 60hz.

Please, correct me if I am wrong.

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post #96 of 142 Old 03-20-2013, 08:00 PM
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SBS are half resolution each eye and stretched and be made as separate L/R by the TV. So when you're watching SBS 3D, each eye actually only see 860 x 1080 resolution. That is also why SBS 3D don't require HDMI 1.4 and regular cablebox such as the antique Scientific Atlanta 8300 (so antique I own 6 of them) can receive SBS from my cable provider without any firmware update and/or receiver update.

In fact, I don't understand why Netflix is limiting 3D to OCN only because they can do SBS on regular HD bandwidth.

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post #97 of 142 Old 03-20-2013, 11:25 PM
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Very interesting. I have been confused by this. So, perhaps it is safe to say that NF is using sequential 3d? That is the 3d format that is used by blu-ray and delivers full 1080P to each eye, correct? That would explain the necessary bandwidth required.

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post #98 of 142 Old 03-21-2013, 12:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Icon13 View Post

It is Comcast's decision not to join the FREE OCN, and not Netflix's. It is available should they choose to join, but they have declined. Netflix is doing them a favor just offering to alleviate the strain that SHD and 3d will have on the ISP.

The issue is certainly complicated but I doubt Comcast thinks 'Netflix is doing them a favor just offering to alleviate the strain that SHD and 3d will have on the ISP'.

Yes Comcast could join Open Connect - but it is a Netflix decision to limit who gets SuperHD.

We have no idea the of the commercial considerations for either Netflix or Comcast here - we can speculate - but that is all it is.

As before the issue has been debated ad nauseam here http://www.avsforum.com/t/1450510/netflix-adds-3d-and-super-hd

Hopefully Netflix and Comcast (or pick your ISP) will sort it out. That said many in the thread above report little improvement with SuperHD (a little surprising given the ~50% improvement from 3850 kbps up to 5800 kbps).

This is where we need some analysis of picture quality of Netflix 3850 kbps HD streams and Netflix 5800 kbps SuperHD - maybe similar to the recent Vudu/iTunes/Blu-Ray comparisons on this site

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1462983/wreck-it-ralph-comparing-itunes-vudu-and-blu-ray

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1460032/life-of-pi-itunes-vs-vudu-vs-blu-ray-updated
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post #99 of 142 Old 03-21-2013, 02:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Icon13 View Post

It is Comcast's decision not to join the FREE OCN, and not Netflix's. It is available should they choose to join, but they have declined. Netflix is doing them a favor just offering to alleviate the strain that SHD and 3d will have on the ISP.

What exactly is "Free OCN"? It sounds like Netflix that wants stuff for free. They want to co-locate their servers at ISP sites in order to
1) avoid operational costs paid to their local ISP for the bandwidth to serve each client stream.
2) make use of the ISP's high speed physical links to their customers.
3) Use the additional free bandwidth to offer higher quality content that only service providers are currently capable of

Netflix and Comcast compete to deliver content to consumers. How does making it cheaper for Netflix to operate and improving their product offering make sense for Comcast or ISP's in general?

Imagine if you owned a local Willy Wonka candy shop and Hershey started a program which would install their vending machines in locally owned shops. They are obviously trying to leverage your infrastructure... to sell their stuff... to your customers. In some cases, they are selling their product in lieu of yours. In interviews with the media, they extoll the virtues of their delivery method, and make up problems about yours. How quick would you be to join this "free" program?

 

 

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post #100 of 142 Old 03-21-2013, 06:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Icon13 View Post

Very interesting. I have been confused by this. So, perhaps it is safe to say that NF is using sequential 3d? That is the 3d format that is used by blu-ray and delivers full 1080P to each eye, correct? That would explain the necessary bandwidth required.

Unfortunately I can't answer your question with 100% certainty until I see the 3D image itself.

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post #101 of 142 Old 03-21-2013, 08:40 AM
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What a joke....give me disc or give me death!!!!
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post #102 of 142 Old 03-21-2013, 09:27 AM
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Would a frame rate of 120 be a whole lot harder to do in 4K than a frame rate of 60?

There would be no flicker with 120--it would be beyond Soap Opera Effect!

What should we call it? How about Stereoscopic Soap Opera effect?

How high would the frame rate have to go before it would be better than what our eyes see?
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post #103 of 142 Old 03-21-2013, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by rabident View Post

What exactly is "Free OCN"? It sounds like Netflix that wants stuff for free. They want to co-locate their servers at ISP sites in order to
1) avoid operational costs paid to their local ISP for the bandwidth to serve each client stream.
2) make use of the ISP's high speed physical links to their customers.
3) Use the additional free bandwidth to offer higher quality content that only service providers are currently capable of

Netflix and Comcast compete to deliver content to consumers. How does making it cheaper for Netflix to operate and improving their product offering make sense for Comcast or ISP's in general?

Imagine if you owned a local Willy Wonka candy shop and Hershey started a program which would install their vending machines in locally owned shops. They are obviously trying to leverage your infrastructure... to sell their stuff... to your customers. In some cases, they are selling their product in lieu of yours. In interviews with the media, they extoll the virtues of their delivery method, and make up problems about yours. How quick would you be to join this "free" program?
You do not get it. NF accounts for 30% of down traffic.

1) If all of those users had Super HD it would cause so much more strain on the ISP and they would have to upgrade anyways at a high cost. NF is trying to alleviate that strain and upgrade them for free on NF's dime. The current infrastructure may not be able to handle the jump in bandwidth.

2) NF is already making use of the ISPs physical links. How do you think NF content is currently delivered? Through the cable your ISP laid down.

3) It is not free bandwidth if NF is paying for the infrastructure to deliver it, so Comcast does not have to.

Also, Netflix is doing this as a courtesy to it's customers so SHD and 3d do not make us hit a brick data cap wall. Yes, NF will benefit by bypassing some fees, but all parties benefit including the consumer. NF could just allow SHD streaming if you have the bandwidth, but if multiple people on your block are doing so, good luck getting high speeds at peak time on your shared cable connection. Then what is Comcast's next move? Upgrade their infrastructure to handle NF bandwidth allocation or cap our data so SHD is not feasible? Comcast is the bad guy here. I did not realize when I signed up it was to a company that I pay to interfere with other services I also pay for.

Seeing as Comcast has no standalone streaming service your Willie Wonka comparison holds no ground. Back to the drawing board Mike Teavee. biggrin.gif Umpa lumpa umpadee dee, Netflix is helping, why can't you see?

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post #104 of 142 Old 03-22-2013, 08:10 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post

That is correct. For the new Netflix Super HD and 3D to work, a cable company needs to allow them to install servers near the end user, which Netflix calls "Open Connect". So far no deal has been reached with Comcast.

I watched an episode of "House of Cards" last night on the PS3. The video was sharp, but there was visible banding.

I concurr aobut the banding on HOC. The easiest place to see it, is at the very end of the title sequence. There is a Lion/Sphinx & as the camera pans up, the banding is easy to see.

So 4k streaming to my house in the next 2 years,eh. I wonder what the telcos & cable companies have to say about that. rolleyes.gif

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post #105 of 142 Old 03-22-2013, 08:15 AM - Thread Starter
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I concurr aobut the banding on HOC. The easiest place to see it, is at the very end of the title sequence. There is a Lion/Sphinx & as the camera pans up, the banding is easy to see.

So 4k streaming to my house in the next 2 years,eh. I wonder what the telcos & cable companies have to say about that. rolleyes.gif

I was shocked at how much banding I saw in HOC, reminds me of why I used to reject Vudu and iTunes video. It's one of the most distracting artifacts, to me. If video has obvious banding, I basically don't care what the native resolution is; to me it's ruined. If Vudu and iTunes found a fix, so can Netflix.
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post #106 of 142 Old 03-22-2013, 08:37 AM
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As long as these downloading limits go away, and internet speeds increase, I will be totally OK with not having the physical media as long as the quality is there. My biggest pet peeve with streaming is the loss of quality.

Aye. Probably all of us here at AVS who actually bother to post on these forums feels the same way about quality. Alas, we are a strange & lonely lot.
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post #107 of 142 Old 03-22-2013, 08:54 AM
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Originally Posted by chirpie View Post

It's kind of funny, but I live in Olathe, KS, and this was just announced.

http://business.time.com/2013/03/20/google-fiber-expanding-superfast-internet-service-to-olathe-kansas/

So I'm set. :-P


Now you do know, half of AVS forum will be moving to your house. We'll be there next Tuesday! biggrin.gif

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Originally Posted by chirpie View Post

It's kind of funny, but I live in Olathe, KS, and this was just announced.

http://business.time.com/2013/03/20/google-fiber-expanding-superfast-internet-service-to-olathe-kansas/

So I'm set. :-P

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post #109 of 142 Old 03-22-2013, 09:18 AM
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Useless. Give us quality 1080p material first.
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post #110 of 142 Old 03-22-2013, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by wingnut4772 View Post

They can't even do HD right. Their streaming quality is terrible.
you said it! streaming is fine for talking head shows like Home Theater Geeks but a movie? get real the pipes on the internet are just too small for that yet.
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post #111 of 142 Old 03-22-2013, 03:35 PM
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Looks like 4K is the hoped-for Next Big Thing. It will become practical and affordable if it finds a market. I'm just not ditching my Blu-Ray player and projector yet.
At this stage, I would just read news about it and watch it develop without the slightest bit of the anxiety I see in these posts.
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post #112 of 142 Old 03-22-2013, 10:26 PM
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When you see a porn come out in 4K, then you'll know it'll stick.

No pun intended.
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Turn it up!
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post #113 of 142 Old 03-23-2013, 07:51 AM
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Like everything else something new like this NF SuperHD streaming will only get better, easier and hopefully cheaper with time.
They can park the server in my garage if they like in exchange for a feed to my PJ! cool.gif
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post #114 of 142 Old 03-24-2013, 08:08 PM
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I would rather have 1080p and high quality 5.1 channel sound now.
Yes I know there is some HD and 5.1 now but far to many movies lack the sound.

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post #115 of 142 Old 03-26-2013, 04:38 PM
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Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

That's bryond exagerration. Even from 10ft away the difference between that TV and regular HDTV is very clear. rolleyes.gif
Sure, but at about 10-1/2 feet you can't tell the difference between 4K and 1080P on an 80" screen. To get the full effect of 3840x2160 you would need to sit about 5-1/2 feet from an 80" screen.
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post #116 of 142 Old 03-26-2013, 04:42 PM
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How fast does the connection have to be to reliably stream 4K video?
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post #117 of 142 Old 03-26-2013, 04:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by billdag View Post

Sure, but at about 10-1/2 feet you can't tell the difference between 4K and 1080P on an 80" screen. To get the full effect of 3840x2160 you would need to sit about 5-1/2 feet from an 80" screen.

Did you read that or have you tried it for yourself? Such a specific number would assume everybody's eyesight is the same. Also, that has not been my personal experience. I do have good eyesight, but so do many people.

It's very much like arguing that reproducing bass below 20Hz is pointless "because you can't hear it", which is totally false.
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post #118 of 142 Old 03-26-2013, 05:09 PM
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Originally Posted by billdag View Post

Sure, but at about 10-1/2 feet you can't tell the difference between 4K and 1080P on an 80" screen. To get the full effect of 3840x2160 you would need to sit about 5-1/2 feet from an 80" screen.

Theory... Theory... Theory.

Have you tried it yourself? I've had the 84" Sony 4K TV to calibrate and audition for several days viewed from 10ft away. Even when viewed at 14ft away you have to be blind for not being able to see the improvement of 4K over 2K. Heck, 2K at 84" from 10ft away is only barely acceptable to my eyes.

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post #119 of 142 Old 03-26-2013, 05:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

Theory... Theory... Theory.

Have you tried it yourself? I've had the 84" Sony 4K TV to calibrate and audition for several days viewed from 10ft away. Even when viewed at 14ft away you have to be blind for not being able to see the improvement of 4K over 2K. Heck, 2K at 84" from 10ft away is only barely acceptable to my eyes.

Wow, we totally agree on something!
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post #120 of 142 Old 03-26-2013, 05:34 PM
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Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

Theory... Theory... Theory.

Have you tried it yourself? I've had the 84" Sony 4K TV to calibrate and audition for several days viewed from 10ft away. Even when viewed at 14ft away you have to be blind for not being able to see the improvement of 4K over 2K. Heck, 2K at 84" from 10ft away is only barely acceptable to my eyes.

At last, someone who actually knows what they are talking about on this subject. Praise be to the A / V Gods ! smile.gif
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