AV Receivers need a makeover - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 124 Old 04-08-2013, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by RobertR View Post

Bleh. It would be badly overpriced and use nonstandard connectors that the user would have to pay extra for.

And the only media it would play would be media streamed via iTunes.
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post #92 of 124 Old 04-08-2013, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by spincycle79 View Post

I'm certainly in the minority here, but I agree with much of what the author has to say. Having recently tried to convince friends and family to buy some of these big, black box AVR's, us on AVSForums are not your typical buyers. Average consumers care about the aesthetics and simplicity electronics they are buying. I live with an interior designer, and our decor efforts are always geared towards hiding the audio components and I agree with her. Why can't AVR's be smaller and more beautiful? Something I didn't have to hid behind closed doors? Consumers have demanded it for all the other products they use. The excuse of function over form is a weak reason. There are plenty of beautiful, functional objects in this world. Even my freakin' refrigerator is nicer to look at than my Onkyo.

1. Make them smaller - Yes!
2. Make them prettier - Double Yes!
3. Get rid of most features - How about this? Get rid of interfaces from the 70s and 80s. Make the less popular features modular. How about a card that I can install?
4. Embrace wireless - This is changing though with manufacturers offering bluetooth and WiFi on higher end devices.
5. Include a true high-definition interface - The SD text hurts my eyes. smile.gif
6. Make a usable remote - I'm not so fussed here. I'd like more support for a bluetooth remote instead of needing line-of-sight. My PS3 has had this for years.
7. Include speaker cables in the box - Sure, for the average Joe. And make them banana plugs. You'd be pissed off if you bought a cell phone and it didn't come with a charger.
8. Embrace stereo - I think there are plenty of stereo options out there. Author doesn't know the market well enough.


One of my friends put it nicely. "I just spent a pile of money on a beautiful TV, and now, I'm stuck with a big ugly box underneath it." He's right.

My $0.02:
a) Smaller and Prettier - Definiite yes. Although your problem might be having space for proper ventilation, so unless you're advocating separates, small might create more equipment failure issues
b) Dumping features - agreed about useless DSP modes and composite inputs, less about dumping analog upconversion, as long as cable/satelllite boxes still are often more stable with component out instead of HDMI (and Marvell QDEO is cheap now)
c) Wireless - who needs it with Roku and Apple TV? Especially since the latter can stream both audio and video, and mirror your iDevice of choice
d) High-def interface and usable remote - DOH!
e) Speaker cables - maybe for an online-only buying model, as length and # of cables can matter. Being user-selectable in a bundle make a lot of sense
f) Stereo - unless it really cuts down on size and price, I think it's pointless limiting

A user-upgradable model, or licensing firmware/feature upgrades by subscription, makes more sense than selling hunks of metal IMO

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Denon 4311 with XT32 and Audyssey Pro

Oppo 93 and 103

Panasonic VT50

Sherwood R-972 with its version of the Trinnov Optimizer

MiniDSP 10x10 HD

PSB Imagine T2, Center, and Surrounds (as of 5/2014); HSU ULS-15 subs (2)

 

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post #93 of 124 Old 04-14-2013, 04:22 PM
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I am currently in the middle of dealing with an obsolete receiver. My suggested equipment architecture is against any approach the receiver manufacturers are likely to embrace.

Amplifier portion. These should never be a part of a receiver/theater configuration. The technology and performance has been essentially static for many years. The only real differentiators I see at this time is the A/AB/D class amplifiers. I would choose a separate box containing only the components and processes necessary to use the Class D amps (or others) with the boxes in front of it. There needs to be an interface standard that brings a modern interface into the amplifier/input processing interface. Amplifiers have not really changed fora very long time (class D - sort of). Replacing all of this each time the front end changes makes no sense and is clearly anti-green. It may be HDMI with or without HDCP, Ethernet, USB3, SATA; whatever. It is that satisfies the needs of a sufficient speed and a standard application level protocol. This is the basic stuff that does not require frequent upgrades. Buy for 20 years use.

Then there are one or more processor boxes.
- First there is an input box that takes HDMI/HDCP, internet, and a standard RF interface, and some other legacy inputs (e.g., phono). This should include a switch for the HDMI inputs (and maybe others) to at least one HDMI output. Multiple HDMI outputs may have some merit. Internet applications need to be in this or another module. They need a lot of RAM and protocol handling and be upgradable on site by the owner.
- The second module/box would need to be for the processing for the input/output conversions and processing (and maybe the Internet stuff). Here is where the DSP, audio processing, surround, etc. processing occurs. It should be a relatively inexpensive box that can be readily updated. In this module, the cost of the chips and firmware are the major price components. This is the one most likely to be updated. HDMI/HDCP protocols would be handled here. A powerful DSP or other devices should be programmable to minimize replacing this module. Firmware updates must be able to be applied from the consumers premises via the net. This function should be implemented in any modules that will benefit from them.
- The third level module may or may not be necessary. The coordination between the amplifier and this module. It would primarily be a switching function but may embed other new features. One example, is that the audio processing could occur here.
- Very volatile processes (e.g., HDCP/HDMI 2.0)and hardware must be modularized so the cost of updates to the assorted standards across all modules are minimized.

More thought would need to be addressed to the proper division of function. An flexible industry standard would be extremely handy.

Results -

- lowest lifetime user cost
- reduce trashing of perfectly good electronics
- reduce electronic waste/recycling loads
- maximize materials conservation
- be a really nice way to handle things
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post #94 of 124 Old 04-22-2013, 02:23 PM
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The things that need to be done to drag the AV receiver forward from 1985, where it is currently stuck, are fairly well known. That's not the problem.

The real problem is consumer electronics companies that makes these things are like deer in the headlights. One one hand there is massive technological (hardware and software) change going on that they simply cant cope with, let alone to take advantage of it properly. And at the other end these companies have always been hopelessly out of touch with consumer, who they have never really considered to be their real customer. Their real customer is the electronics retailers, who are not doing well and whose only concern is to fling the same rehashed product through sales "seasons" year after year after year.

So we can opinionate as much as we want, but we'll still get the same old outdated black boxes that are less powerful and less user-friendly than a 300 buck Android phone. Until either Apple decides to make a receiver, or until Amazon decides it doesn't need these dodos and starts designing its own these products itself to sell via its own channels.

We'll see which comes first. It's only after that, that these receiver companies will start copying whatever someone else has done. Its all that they do anymore. None of them dare to actually think or make changes anymore. Its all lockstep and jump to the retailers' tune.
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post #95 of 124 Old 04-22-2013, 03:42 PM
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What he said.
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post #96 of 124 Old 04-22-2013, 03:54 PM
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I don't want Apple near my AVR. It would probably be 3.0 channels with proprietary cables and no legacy support at all. Although I'd have to agree, the UI's really suck on these things. There are so many things that could be innovated.
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post #97 of 124 Old 04-22-2013, 04:24 PM
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The remake is well over due!!!
It seems as if the manufactures have decided to take the easy (read cheap) way out! (As usual)
As far as including speaker wire (not really possible due to various length needs) WHY NOT WIRELESS SPEAKERS for front, rear, center, sub, etc.???
If we want a "revolution" (sorry Beatles) lets have a real revolution!!!
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post #98 of 124 Old 04-22-2013, 04:34 PM
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Honestly, I agree that alternety's approach would be innovative and worthwhile. To draw from my own experience in the broadcast side of things, terminal gear has long been available in plug-in modules so you can add as much capacity as you need, unify control, and not have a bunch of separate boxes with wires between them. There's even an open standard called "OpenGear". Check out these offerings from Blackmagic Design. Just imagine something not as deep, and in a nice grounded enclosure instead of bare boards.



So I envision (or hallucinate) an industry trade committee or standardization agency developing a simple, non-proprietary module-based system for HT. The modules are compatible and interchangeable. A typical system would be composed of:

  • A chassis, which mostly just includes the slots and ultra-fast & simple signal buses. Add an IR sensor, volume knob and power button. Manufacturers can make them in matte black or sparkling champagne & wood finish, whatever people want. More compact units will have less slots, bigger ones will have more slots.
  • Power supply module Most people will buy whatever ships with the chassis, but enthusiasts can pick and choose what they deem is the cleanest best one.
  • Amplifiers one module per channel, or all 6 channels in one module... whatever fits best for the power rating, class, miniaturization, etc... Want 7.1? No problem, add two more modules. Just need line level out? Put a preamp module instead.
  • I/O Buy 4 HDMI inputs by the module, and add more if you need 'em. Need analog component HD with multiple outputs? No problem, just get the right module. HDMI 3.0 comes out with 8K support? Just change the I/O module.
  • Control and processing Different companies will be able to make interfaces competing with each other on features and design. You could mix and match DLNA, iPhone control, add a Roku module or avoid it because you already own a box. If a company specializes in upconverters or 3D LUTs you can simply get their module.

If this ever happens, it could be one of the most exciting developments in HT. I'm not expecting this to come from any of the major brands. It's easier than ever to prototype, program, and fabricate equipment, but it's still hard for niche shops to compete with the Yamahas and Pioneers of the world. This platform could bring unprecedented democratization to the field, where all these companies can specialize and unite, and level the playing field.
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post #99 of 124 Old 04-22-2013, 05:25 PM
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I'm with the "needs a makeover" camp. Look at the minimalist design of Intel's NUC line of computers. They get rid of all the dreck of the past - no PS/2 ports, VGA, DVI, audio in or out, floppy headers, parallel/serial ports, etc. Just a processor, memory slots, slots for SSD and wifi/Bluetooth, USB port, HDMI, maybe Thunderbolt, Ethernet, and power. 4" X 4" X 2". I would like to see the same sensibility applied to the AV receiver. HDMI in for computer, Blu-Ray, and cable or satellite box; iPod input; HDMI out; standard speaker jacks; and that's about it. Don't even bother with a remote control. No stupid sound modes, all controls via on-screen menus. I wonder if such a thing could be sold at a profit for $200.
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post #100 of 124 Old 04-22-2013, 05:56 PM
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It's probably a really small thing to a lot of people but I miss having units with spectrum analyzers and such. In recent times, it doesn't matter if you buy a $99 unit or a $2000 unit, it's pretty much a black box with one line of text and a few buttons and a knob or two. My old Sony STR-D1011 had more of a "wow factor" in terms of it's appearance than my new Yamaha, which costs 3x more.
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post #101 of 124 Old 04-22-2013, 07:34 PM
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Why does this modular crap come up over and over again? There are a lot of things to be done in the AVR area, but making them significantly more expensive and complicated is not one of them.

Imagine an AVR with a friendly on-screen menu that was easy to use, has a remote control that made sense, used HDMI-CEC to control other stuff, had pre-amp outs on all channels, had a port for a Roku, supported ethernet over HDMI, and integrated the features of the DVDO Quick 6 and a high-end 4k video scaler? It would be amazing.
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post #102 of 124 Old 04-23-2013, 08:57 AM
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post #103 of 124 Old 04-23-2013, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by BiggAW View Post

Why does this modular crap come up over and over again? There are a lot of things to be done in the AVR area, but making them significantly more expensive and complicated is not one of them.

Imagine an AVR with a friendly on-screen menu that was easy to use, has a remote control that made sense, used HDMI-CEC to control other stuff, had pre-amp outs on all channels, had a port for a Roku, supported ethernet over HDMI, and integrated the features of the DVDO Quick 6 and a high-end 4k video scaler? It would be amazing.

While modular is nice to have, what I want is an AVR that can be user-programmed for different RC schemes (i.e. one where I can choose between Audyssey software and Dirac, or Trinnov, with the heavy lifting done by a PC, and two-way communication between the PC and the AVR via HDMI). A HT receiver with base functionality, including decoding common HT modes, HDMI switching, 11.1 pre-outs, and an amp that can support 9 channels, along the lines of the Denon 4520 or 4311, is all most people, even on AVS, really need.

Also, these days, video processing in AVRs is cheap enough that unless you're an enthusiast (in which case, you probably have a Lumagen and either a high end plasma like the VT50 or a projector), a QDEO chip with 4K passthrough will future-proof you for several years to come. Otherwise, you can strip the AVR down to two or three component inputs, maybe a single composite for legacy's sake, and the rest can be HDMI. A basic remote is nice, but not essential given the ease of use of a Harmony, and as for HDMI-CEC, mobile support, and Ethernet over HDMI, well, they're either features in search of a purpose or too much of a PITA to use universally.

Stuart

 

Denon 4311 with XT32 and Audyssey Pro

Oppo 93 and 103

Panasonic VT50

Sherwood R-972 with its version of the Trinnov Optimizer

MiniDSP 10x10 HD

PSB Imagine T2, Center, and Surrounds (as of 5/2014); HSU ULS-15 subs (2)

 

The Audyssey FAQ Guide can be found here:

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post #104 of 124 Old 04-23-2013, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post

While modular is nice to have, what I want is an AVR that can be user-programmed for different RC schemes (i.e. one where I can choose between Audyssey software and Dirac, or Trinnov, with the heavy lifting done by a PC, and two-way communication between the PC and the AVR via HDMI). A HT receiver with base functionality, including decoding common HT modes, HDMI switching, 11.1 pre-outs, and an amp that can support 9 channels, along the lines of the Denon 4520 or 4311, is all most people, even on AVS, really need.

Also, these days, video processing in AVRs is cheap enough that unless you're an enthusiast (in which case, you probably have a Lumagen and either a high end plasma like the VT50 or a projector), a QDEO chip with 4K passthrough will future-proof you for several years to come. Otherwise, you can strip the AVR down to two or three component inputs, maybe a single composite for legacy's sake, and the rest can be HDMI. A basic remote is nice, but not essential given the ease of use of a Harmony, and as for HDMI-CEC, mobile support, and Ethernet over HDMI, well, they're either features in search of a purpose or too much of a PITA to use universally.

Don't forget the .4 in 11.4! I'd argue that only 7 channels of amp are needed. The people who want more are running Emotiva stuff anyways. Being reconfigurable is a must, as using the internal amps for the 4 or 6 "extra" channels with the base 5 or 7 channels running through Emotiva amps would be a good setup.

I'd like to keep at least 4 composite inputs. VCR, GCN, and N64 are three alone, and I don't even have SNES or other old consoles like some do.
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post #105 of 124 Old 04-23-2013, 02:31 PM
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I'd like to keep at least 4 composite inputs. VCR, GCN, and N64 are three alone, and I don't even have SNES or other old consoles like some do.
That's not only an 0.01% use case, it's also a makeover for the past, not the future.

What's really wild though is how probably more than half of the wishes expressed for future vision here are not about imagination at all - its all easily doable with current technology. And its all easily doable - and it would boost sales. How can this sector possibly be so badly out of touch? Wild...
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post #106 of 124 Old 04-23-2013, 04:50 PM
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Originally Posted by BiggAW View Post

Don't forget the .4 in 11.4! I'd argue that only 7 channels of amp are needed. The people who want more are running Emotiva stuff anyways. Being reconfigurable is a must, as using the internal amps for the 4 or 6 "extra" channels with the base 5 or 7 channels running through Emotiva amps would be a good setup.

I'd like to keep at least 4 composite inputs. VCR, GCN, and N64 are three alone, and I don't even have SNES or other old consoles like some do.

I have to admit I've never heard of GCN, and what's N64?

Stuart

 

Denon 4311 with XT32 and Audyssey Pro

Oppo 93 and 103

Panasonic VT50

Sherwood R-972 with its version of the Trinnov Optimizer

MiniDSP 10x10 HD

PSB Imagine T2, Center, and Surrounds (as of 5/2014); HSU ULS-15 subs (2)

 

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post #107 of 124 Old 04-24-2013, 07:17 AM
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I think more and more high-end 2-ch preamps will have built in DAC:s and even HDMI on some. I'm thinking of going that route a nice looking simple, and userfriendly preamp and then hide something like a Marantz 1603 for surround channel handling.
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post #108 of 124 Old 04-24-2013, 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Osamede View Post

That's not only an 0.01% use case, it's also a makeover for the past, not the future.

What's really wild though is how probably more than half of the wishes expressed for future vision here are not about imagination at all - its all easily doable with current technology. And its all easily doable - and it would boost sales. How can this sector possibly be so badly out of touch? Wild...

A lot of people have older gaming hardware. It's getting tougher with big new TVs, but they'll be around for a long time to come.
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I have to admit I've never heard of GCN, and what's N64?

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=GCN

I hope you're sarcastic about N64. Anyone who hasn't been under a rock since like 1996 knows what N64 is.
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post #109 of 124 Old 04-24-2013, 08:16 PM
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A lot of people have older gaming hardware. It's getting tougher with big new TVs, but they'll be around for a long time to come.
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=GCN

I hope you're sarcastic about N64. Anyone who hasn't been under a rock since like 1996 knows what N64 is.

DOH, Nintendo 64. That tells you how long it's been since I thought of it.

But they never came up with a component video output version? I had a feeling but I don't play games with composite video, just on PC or the iPad smile.gif.

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Denon 4311 with XT32 and Audyssey Pro

Oppo 93 and 103

Panasonic VT50

Sherwood R-972 with its version of the Trinnov Optimizer

MiniDSP 10x10 HD

PSB Imagine T2, Center, and Surrounds (as of 5/2014); HSU ULS-15 subs (2)

 

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post #110 of 124 Old 04-25-2013, 12:36 AM
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http://lmgtfy.com/?q=GCN

I get these results:
1/ GezondheidsCentrum Neerbeek
2/ GolfCentrum Noordwijk
3/ GewichtsConsulenten Nederland

If you speak Dutch you will laugh you a** out, otherwise you just translate.


So no, I still do not know what GCN means.

On a side note: I still do not understand why people participate in an international forum to use abbreviations that a minority of people will not understand just because English is not their first language. And yes, this is an international forum because a lot of people here are from Scandinavia, Benelux, etc who do not have the luxury of having a good forum in their own language. (I also know that AVSforums is supposed to be the international website and AVforums the UK spin off, but I also come here, because on AVS some brands that are popular in Europe are not covered there...)

Is het zo moeilijk om een duidelijke taal te spreken...? rolleyes.giftongue.gif

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post #111 of 124 Old 04-25-2013, 02:52 AM
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Originally Posted by 802Diamond View Post

I get these results:
1/ GezondheidsCentrum Neerbeek
2/ GolfCentrum Noordwijk
3/ GewichtsConsulenten Nederland

If you speak Dutch you will laugh you a** out, otherwise you just translate.


So no, I still do not know what GCN means.

On a side note: I still do not understand why people participate in an international forum to use abbreviations that a minority of people will not understand just because English is not their first language. And yes, this is an international forum because a lot of people here are from Scandinavia, Benelux, etc who do not have the luxury of having a good forum in their own language. (I also know that AVSforums is supposed to be the international website and AVforums the UK spin off, but I also come here, because on AVS some brands that are popular in Europe are not covered there...)

Is het zo moeilijk om een duidelijke taal te spreken...? rolleyes.giftongue.gif

#1 is 'Health Neerbeek', and #3 is 'Weight Consult Nederland', but Google can't translate #2. It must be too heavy a burden smile.gif. (that's my attempt at a pun)

In all seriousness, losing composite inputs on newer AVRs can be addressed by picking up a composite to HDMI switcher for well under $100. Not as convenient, but I see they exist on Amazon, NewEgg etc. for single sources. However, for multiple devices it might be cheaper to just get an old AVR and use it as a switcher/scaler. Or maybe a used DVDO Edge Green.

Sometimes we do lose features over time: my first receiver was a hand-me-down Marantz a relative gave me when I went to college in the early 80's. It had an analog control that could take either Left or Right stereo channel and play that mono signal over both speakers.That used to be pretty cool when you would listen to one of those records that had the mix split almost independently across the two channels, like voices and drums in one and guitar and bass in the other. Or sometimes it would tame RF noise you'd pick up on one channel when you'd listen to a distant FM station in those pre-digital/Internet days.

Eek: next I'll get nostalgic for my old Pioneer Stereo 30-band graphic equalizer. The lit-up EQ handles looked so cool, and easier to tweak than Audyssey Pro smile.gif. And it was awesome to have in a college apartment.

Stuart

 

Denon 4311 with XT32 and Audyssey Pro

Oppo 93 and 103

Panasonic VT50

Sherwood R-972 with its version of the Trinnov Optimizer

MiniDSP 10x10 HD

PSB Imagine T2, Center, and Surrounds (as of 5/2014); HSU ULS-15 subs (2)

 

The Audyssey FAQ Guide can be found here:

http://www.avsforum.com/...

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post #112 of 124 Old 04-25-2013, 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post

#1 is 'Health Neerbeek', and #3 is 'Weight Consult Nederland', but Google can't translate #2. It must be too heavy a burden smile.gif. (that's my attempt at a pun)

Txs! biggrin.gif
1/ is Health Center Neerbeek (village in Belgium)
2/ Golf Center Noordwijk (village in Holland) funny that google can't translate that one
3/ Weight Consults The Netherlands

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post #113 of 124 Old 04-25-2013, 03:18 PM
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a) Fully customized Room Correction system controlled via PC
b) XLR outs
c) DLNA renderer that support BD.ISO & MKV remux
d) Full CMS for video sources
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post #114 of 124 Old 04-25-2013, 04:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post

DOH, Nintendo 64. That tells you how long it's been since I thought of it.

But they never came up with a component video output version? I had a feeling but I don't play games with composite video, just on PC or the iPad smile.gif.

N64 is composite or S-Video. GCN can do composite, S, or component, but the component cables are effectively impossible to get. Wii does component 480p. I run the Wii on component, and the others on composite, because composite and S are very similar in quality, and S is too much of a hassle to add to the system, and few devices can handle it these days.
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Originally Posted by 802Diamond View Post

I get these results:
1/ GezondheidsCentrum Neerbeek
2/ GolfCentrum Noordwijk
3/ GewichtsConsulenten Nederland

If you speak Dutch you will laugh you a** out, otherwise you just translate.


So no, I still do not know what GCN means.

On a side note: I still do not understand why people participate in an international forum to use abbreviations that a minority of people will not understand just because English is not their first language. And yes, this is an international forum because a lot of people here are from Scandinavia, Benelux, etc who do not have the luxury of having a good forum in their own language. (I also know that AVSforums is supposed to be the international website and AVforums the UK spin off, but I also come here, because on AVS some brands that are popular in Europe are not covered there...)

Is het zo moeilijk om een duidelijke taal te spreken...? rolleyes.giftongue.gif

Bottom of the second page on Google.nl. Also, I don't know what you're doing, but I used lmgtfy while connected to the Netherlands on my VPN, and it used Google.com. I had to actually go to Google.nl to search on Google.nl.
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In all seriousness, losing composite inputs on newer AVRs can be addressed by picking up a composite to HDMI switcher for well under $100. Not as convenient, but I see they exist on Amazon, NewEgg etc. for single sources. However, for multiple devices it might be cheaper to just get an old AVR and use it as a switcher/scaler. Or maybe a used DVDO Edge Green.

I'm already using a $40 Monoprice Composite to HDMI converter, as the DVDO EDGE Green doesn't support conversion of 240p sources, and it only has enough analog audio for the Wii. You can still do full mono by using the full mono mode.
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post #115 of 124 Old 04-26-2013, 05:05 PM
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He does have some decent points. AVRs have far to many legacy connections on them. The lower end modles are moving away from that but the highend is still full of them. Many unused sound settings (arena, concert hall in xxx), interfaces are generally crap as well. Black is fine as its the least distracting color IMO. Most will do wireless with an adapter now, but the sad state of streaming with them is what really needs to be fixed

This is the last post I read, but I just want to add that a lot of the "big boys" (guys who are spending money for a high-end receiver) are older - and thus probably have more desire for legacy connections. Personally, though, I agree. I only have devices connected to my AVR via HDMI.
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post #116 of 124 Old 04-27-2013, 04:08 PM
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That would be a case to add a legacy analog connector dock or module. Or cut down the model lineup to one or two, max three. Put the legacy crap on the most expensive one. Make mid range one that is good, but cuts out the legacy. And then a low end minimal one. Done. But make them all good, with top notch interface and a real remote thought out by a design school graduate living in this decade.

At the moment we are not getting vary basic things we need as users because these people are following way outdated product management strategy of having a zillion crappy models, instead of thinking carefully about which customers to serve and how. That's why I highlight obscure use cases. We have fairly mainstream product being overcomplicated by obscure use cases.
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post #117 of 124 Old 08-06-2013, 11:36 PM
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I'm sure Yamaha, Denon, Onkyo etc. will still be around so you'll be fine; you'll be able to buy black boxes for years to come. I prefer to think forward about what's possible, instead of clinging to obsolescence. That's the point of this thread, after all. I for one love the idea of a receiver that could do a whole lot more than any receiver that exists today. How about an Audyssey app with visual, touch-editable EQ graphs!

Check out the Pioneer LX 56/76/86 models, being replaced by even better LX57/77 and 87 models. They do exactly what you ask and they are not too bulky. Pioneer does not use Audyssey. Instead, you get a superior facility developed by Pioneer. For those who are fed up with black boxes, they come in brushed silver too.

I was considering the LX 77 to replace my Denon AVC A1SR, a flagship of yesteryear, which never once gave me any trouble. It's a heavy, well engineered beast of 65 pounds. It's a pure AV amp, not a receiver. I don't have time for radio, except when driving. so I would much rather prefer an AV amp, withour radio signals in the mix. Unfortunately, Denon's last AV amp was the HDA. Now they make only AV receivers. The AVC A1SR Pumps out 175 Watts @ 8 ohms x 7 channels. It does not have any HDMI ports. The Pioneer within my budget is the LX77, which does not have 7.1 multichannels analog inputs, which the old Denon and the LX86/87 do.

I have hooked up my Oppo 105 via its analog multichannel outs to the Denon. The Oppo handles the processing and does a fine job. (You spend more for the Oppo 105 than on their cheaper models for its better analog (DAC) capabilities, anyway). So the Denon just amplifies. I think it's this kind of player that would make receivers obsolete. I don't need HDMI for audio and use HDMI to send video signals from the Oppo direct to the TV, instead of passing video signals through a receiver. A player like the Oppo does almost everything a receiver does, except amplification. Maybe I have argued against myself against replacing the Denon with the Pioneer!:rolleyes.gif

Another thing, transmission via HDMI can cause clock jitter, resulting in sound distortion during the D/A conversion. So you need very good technology in the receiver to correct that. The PrimaLuna deploys a unique tube-clock for this purpose.

For pure audio, I still prefer my PrimaLuna CD Eight -- even the Oppo can't beat that -- and my EL34, 40 WPC Salience Fantasia tube amp.

This is my first post. Would be interested to hear your thoughts.

Cheers!smile.gif
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post #118 of 124 Old 08-08-2013, 06:21 AM
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I'll take a common black box any day of the week. It fits into my rack and doesn't distract from the viewing experience. My biggest complaint about the Xbox/PS3 are that they stand out too much.

I want a black box with a display I can turn off.

Now, in my STEREO setup upstairs, on the other hand, I love my vintage Marantz and its blue glow while listening to vinyl...

I love my iPhone, but it will never replace my turntable.

The Cinema 1858 Remodel Thread
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post #119 of 124 Old 08-08-2013, 07:08 AM
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Why don't we remove the screen from the receiver? Use a tablet based program to perform setup and act as remote? Initial setup could even be performed via network. You could then have downloadable 'scenarios' (setups) that other people have created.

I fear, though, that many would mourn the loss of buttons and 8 bit characters on their A/V screen. I have a Pioneer Elite receiver and the setup is moderately 'not good'. As mentioned earlier, after setup, what else do you need?

I do use my receiver to switch inputs for various components and watch the front panel when they switch. If I had an iPhone/iPad remote program, I could select the input directly and have the response show on my tablet.I think the new Pioneers have an app to do this.

The Audio Video realm has been comprised mostly of nerds, geeks, and dorks, for many decades and we love our buttons and rows of connectors...

There are 10 types of people in the world. Thos that understand binary and those that don't.
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post #120 of 124 Old 06-12-2014, 11:17 AM
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Quote:
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A pair of "Beats" is a Louis Vuitton purse that you wear on your head. If the price were lower, they would fail to serve their primary function.

The term "overpriced" can only apply to normal goods with a negative-sloped demand curve. With Veblen goods, raising the price increases demand.
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