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Latest Industry News > Panasonic ZT60 is Potential "Kuro Killer," Plasma Not Dead Yet
imagic's Avatar imagic 01:12 PM 04-29-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by saprano View Post


Nice try.

I think i proved my point plenty times already.

Please post the picture of the alley where they found that Kuro.biggrin.gif

 

I'm sure that's exactly what Panasonic was thinking, they would fool the entire electronics press, media, call it what you will. People who live and breathe televisions every day. That's who they planned on fooling with their back alley Kuro. About all I can tell you is that if I saw a TV like that sitting in an alley, it would be coming home with me. I'm going to have to take a walk by that alley every now and then, if you are willing to share the secret location.



saprano's Avatar saprano 01:28 PM 04-29-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

Please post the picture of the alley where they found that Kuro.
biggrin.gif


I'm sure that's exactly what Panasonic was thinking, they would fool the entire electronics press, media, call it what you will. People who live and breathe televisions every day. That's who they planned on fooling with their back alley Kuro. 
About all I can tell you is that if I saw a TV like that sitting in an alley, it would be coming home with me. 
I'm going to have to take a walk by that alley every now and then, i
f you are willing to share the secret location.

Going by this thread, apparently alot of people were fooled.

Except the ones that really know what a kuro should look like.

For the billionth time-

This is from ken who was actually there.-
Quote:
So here's another point and it's all too common in these manufacturer A/Bs (and why Robert's shootouts are SOOO much better!). I thought my Pro 151 looked better than the Kuro they had in this comparison. The colors on the ZT60 looked very saturated by comparison to the Kuro. But why did it seem the Kuro's colors were somewhat DEsaturated. Never saw that on mine. Hmm. Saturation and colors on the pale side were never a characteristic of my ISF'd Pro 151. I don't think this aspect of the A/B was accurate, at least not IMO. I think the press, depending on what they want to see, can be fooled more easily than some of us.

This is from another person who went to the first one-
Quote:
That said, we also have to stress that the Pioneer Kuro on display had a bit more faded colors that what we are used to from the Kuro TVs. Panasonic was very open and told us that they had basically looked far and wide. After weeks they found a used Kuro that was owned by an enthusiastic user (so it probably has been used quite extensively). They bought it. Panasonic had not fiddled with the settings, a fact we were able to confirm after seeing the menu.

That's two people that saw exact samething.

Anything else?
imagic's Avatar imagic 01:37 PM 04-29-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by saprano View Post



Going by this thread, apparently alot of people were fooled.

Except the ones that really know what a kuro should look like.

For the billionth time-

This is from ken who was actually there.-
This is from another person who went to the first one-
Anything else?

Right, so they both saw a Kuro that looked less saturated and less contrasty versus the TV that was next to it, and their brains said Hmmm, there's something wrong with the Kuro? It is a perfect example of subjectivity and relativity However, neither of those people had their own TV set there in the room with them, so I'm not sure what their recollection really has to do with it. 

 

All one can conclude is that we don't know the absolute truth. However, the reality is much closer to both televisions being properly calibrated, and the ZT60 being technically superior as well as newer. Your suggestion that it was some garbage Kuro that was intentionally out of whack is dubious.


saprano's Avatar saprano 01:45 PM 04-29-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

Right, so they both saw a Kuro that looked less saturated and less contrasty versus the TV that was next to it, and their brains said Hmmm, there's something wrong with the Kuro? It is a perfect example of subjectivity and relativity
 However, neither of those people had their own TV set there in the room with them, so I'm not sure what their recollection really has to do with it. 


All one can conclude is that we don't know the absolute truth. However, the reality is much closer to both televisions being properly calibrated, and the ZT60 being technically superior as well as newer. Your suggestion that it was some garbage Kuro that was intentionally out of whack is dubious.
How you continue to refute this boggles my mind. It's clear they're are explaining a kuro doesn't look like that. But somehow you're turning it into something else. You're the definition of "the press."

And the kuro was not calibrated. At either event.

Anyway. I have to go. Continue to believe what you want to. It's a FACT that kuro was not setup right.
Blu_One's Avatar Blu_One 01:52 PM 04-29-2013
Kuro or whatever, when its all said and done in a few months, the ZT will be king of the hill, mark my words
saprano's Avatar saprano 02:03 PM 04-29-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blu_One View Post

Kuro or whatever, when its all said and done in a few months, the ZT will be king of the hill, mark my words

You see, i actually agree with you (look at my post in the samsung and panasonic threads) But this comparison isn't fair to the kuro. That's all i'm trying to say. I know it seems like i'm saying the kuro is better than the ZT60 but i'm not. We won't know who's better until reviews. I just immediately knew something was up with the kuro when i saw pics and video of the demo and i'm calling it out. People mistake that for being a kuro fanboy or whatever childish nonsense. Just show the character they have.
Blu_One's Avatar Blu_One 02:09 PM 04-29-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by saprano View Post

You see, i actually agree with you (look at my post in the samsung and panasonic threads) But this comparison isn't fair to the kuro. That's all i'm trying to say. I know it seems like i'm saying the kuro is better than the ZT60 but i'm not. We won't know who's better until reviews. I just immediately knew something was up with the kuro when i saw pics and video of the demo and i'm calling it out. People mistake that for being a kuro fanboy or whatever childish nonsense. Just show the character they have.

Oh yeah I get your point.. maybe, just maybe panny did this on purpose to stir up controversy, they know their ZT will 'beat' a properly calibrated Kuro (my assumption here..), so they're starting this mess to get free promo..
Stu03's Avatar Stu03 02:22 PM 04-29-2013
Let's be honest. We have only the independent experts opinions. Anyone in their right mind knows that Kuro wasn't maxed.

If an undoubted independent expert like Saprano mentioned about bringing along his own Kuro for comparison then that's a brilliant idea imho.

Least then that way we know the history of the Kuro and can feel comfortable that it stands a fighting chance.

I haven't been on this forum for a while and hadn't realised this may be the case, and had misread Sapranos post.

Great idea if it was to happen smile.gif
wuther's Avatar wuther 05:50 PM 04-29-2013
Surprise, surprise the Kuro image has a purple tint just like every one I saw in store and despite delusions otherwise its' permanently purple whatever you do cause it's in the glass. Oh and you cannot make a 'Kuro Killer' cause the Kuro is dead as a door nail, might as well be writing about a new 'HD-DVD killer'.
CHASLS2's Avatar CHASLS2 07:28 PM 04-29-2013
As long as the ZT60 can match my now sold 5020 Kuro, i'm in.
mr. wally's Avatar mr. wally 08:36 PM 04-29-2013
Just remarkable.

There are 3 things certain to bring out the most irrational, emotionally based responses on avs




Anything original release star wars eps IV-VI

Anything Lotr/hobbit blu rays

Kuro getting dethroned
Nightlord's Avatar Nightlord 01:04 AM 04-30-2013
No, we're waiting for something better than Kuro 9G. What annoys people is reports of dethroning that doesn't hold water.
saprano's Avatar saprano 08:18 AM 04-30-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightlord View Post

No, we're waiting for something better than Kuro 9G. What annoys people is reports of dethroning that doesn't hold water.

Yeah exactly. But like i told Blu_One above, people think it's because the kuro might be getting surpassed. Hell no. Kuro owners WANT something better to come along so we can finally have a TV to buy in the future that's worthy of the PQ we've been enjoying for years. In bigger sizes too. What's not to be happy about? smile.gif

No. This is about the kuro clearly not being up to standards of what we know it to be. I don't need the ZT60 sitting next to it to have realised something was up. It's not because of the ZT60. Many people (not just two) saw the samething i did. I have similar content that was played on the kuro and it looks NOTHING like that. Deep rich colors, deep blacks, and none of what looks like the brightness to be turned up high. That should tell you alot from the demo because a display with black levels that low shouldn't have a washed out looking image. That only happens for two reasons; brightness tuned way up or the TV has a very high black level.

Another things that was telling was that the VT50 was producing a significantly better image than the kuro. It didn't suffer from the damaged PQ the kuro was producing in the video i saw. Well we all know what's wrong with that right? It DOESNT have a better image than the kuro. If anything the color reproduction should be equal but it wasn't. It was massively different. A difference not accounted for by owners of both TV's and reviews. The VT50 clearly had colors that i'm use to seeing on my kuro. And most of all, no wash out that's associated with what i mentioned above. Everyone knows the kuros BL is deeper than the VT50 right? Another red flag right there. They could of least made it suffer like the kuro did so the ZT60 could stand out even more. Haha. Oops.

But whatever man, the shootout wil be here soon. And everyone will see that the kuro at wasn't right (if one is brought).
qwknuf6's Avatar qwknuf6 01:18 PM 05-12-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blu_One View Post

Kuro or whatever, when its all said and done in a few months, the ZT will be king of the hill, mark my words

Funny how things work out after a REAL evaluation .
Another year of who can top a Kuro:)
Blu_One's Avatar Blu_One 03:13 PM 05-12-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by qwknuf6 View Post

Funny how things work out after a REAL evaluation .
Another year of who can top a Kuro:)

Oops (turning bright red now) lol
vinnie97's Avatar vinnie97 05:13 PM 05-12-2013
9G has at least been matched...that's really all I've been waiting for.
qwknuf6's Avatar qwknuf6 07:23 PM 05-12-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

9G has at least been matched...that's really all I've been waiting for.

I guess I missed that @ the shoot out this year rolleyes.gif

The ZT-60 did not match the KURO in black levels or brightness.

The Samsung and Panasonic PDPs are all great displays ,but not match the KURO.
imagic's Avatar imagic 07:30 PM 05-12-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by qwknuf6 View Post


I guess I missed that @ the shoot out this year rolleyes.gif

The ZT-60 did not match the KURO in black levels or brightness.

The Samsung and Panasonic PDPs are all great displays ,but not match the KURO.

I think the ZT60 beat the Kuro that was at the shootout — in terms of percieved black levels. More importantly it had superior rendition of the deepest shadows. Even more important, the VT60 is the actual winner for best overall TV in the shootout—not the ZT60; at least by my own tabulation/vote.

 

Also all the pros at the shoot-out agreed the Samsung F8500 is revolutionary. With black levels that are impressively close to the Kuro, the F8500 literally blows away any high-end plasma that came before, it in terms of brightness capability.


vinnie97's Avatar vinnie97 07:47 PM 05-12-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by qwknuf6 View Post

I guess I missed that @ the shoot out this year rolleyes.gif

The ZT-60 did not match the KURO in black levels or brightness.

The Samsung and Panasonic PDPs are all great displays ,but not match the KURO.
No reason to behave like a smartass. The 500M is a 9.5G panel, which did not arrive on the market until ~November 2008. The rest of the Kuro line (aside from the 101FD), only calibrates to 0.001 without proprietary engineer tricks as learned by D-Nice. For all intents and purposes, the ZT60 came very close to matching this level at around 0.0013 according to the shootout. The 500M was calibrated halfway to its maximum (accounting for these engineer tricks), which ended up being about 0.0003, so no, the ZT60 does not beat EVERY Kuro with a typical calibration (and beats none using these proprietary techniques). Also, peak luminance should be compared with a calibrated 60" Kuro rather than a 50". Finally, the ZT60 *can* go brighter outside of the ISF mode(s).
qwknuf6's Avatar qwknuf6 08:19 PM 05-12-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

No reason to behave like a smartass. The 500M is a 9.5G panel, which did not arrive on the market until ~November 2008. The rest of the Kuro line (aside from the 101FD), only calibrates to 0.001 without proprietary engineer tricks as learned by D-Nice. For all intents and purposes, the ZT60 came very close to matching this level at around 0.0013 according to the shootout. The 500M was calibrated halfway to its maximum (accounting for these engineer tricks), which ended up being about 0.0003, so no, the ZT60 does not beat EVERY Kuro with a typical calibration (and beats none using these proprietary techniques). Also, peak luminance should be compared with a calibrated 60" Kuro rather than a 50". Finally, the ZT60 *can* go brighter outside of the ISF mode(s).

I am not acting like a smartass.
You posted misinformation and I stand by that still , don't take it personal.
I don't need a Wikipedia paged about the Kuro line . I have owned Kuros since 2008 , a total of 6 over the years ,still own a 9G and a 9.5g .
The fact remains the Panasonic line did not match the Kuro @ the shoot out .
qwknuf6's Avatar qwknuf6 08:21 PM 05-12-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

I think the ZT60 beat the Kuro that was at the shootout — in terms of percieved black levels. More importantly it had superior rendition of the deepest shadows. Even more important, the VT60 is the actual winner for best overall TV in the shootout—not the ZT60; at least by my own tabulation/vote.

Also all the pros at the shoot-out agreed the Samsung F8500 is revolutionary. With black levels that are impressively close to the Kuro, the F8500 literally blows away any high-end plasma that came before, it in terms of brightness capability.
We must have watched different shoot outs ???
imagic's Avatar imagic 08:24 PM 05-12-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by qwknuf6 View Post


We must have watched different shoot outs ???

I don't know. I was there Friday night... were you there? I'm just telling you what I saw, I'm sure other people will come to different conclusions. I know the Kuro measures well, but in that darkened room when displaying a blacvk screen, the Kuro had a static dither pattern in the blacks while the ZT60's deep blacks were totally smooth.

 

The difference is so vanishingly small it's near-impossible to detect with the naked eye, from normal viewing distances. The VT60 really does match the ZT60 quality-wise and is a smidgeon brighter which makes it the overall winner IMO.


qwknuf6's Avatar qwknuf6 09:12 PM 05-12-2013
If we are talking personal preference , I will not debate what YOU saw , I watched and listened online , no indication the panasonic PDP line was equal to the Kuro in terms of PQ.
imagic's Avatar imagic 09:19 PM 05-12-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by qwknuf6 View Post

If we are talking personal preference , I will not debate what YOU saw , I watched and listened online , no indication the panasonic PDP line was equal to the Kuro in terms of PQ.

In that case, I think you got the wrong impression. What the Kuro managed to do is keep up with the two Pannys and the Sammy in several performance categories—and it does have a killer deep black. But, it certainly was not better than the new plasma sets, in any appreciable manner. 


vinnie97's Avatar vinnie97 09:34 PM 05-12-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by qwknuf6 View Post

I am not acting like a smartass.
You posted misinformation and I stand by that still , don't take it personal.
I don't need a Wikipedia paged about the Kuro line . I have owned Kuros since 2008 , a total of 6 over the years ,still own a 9G and a 9.5g .
The fact remains the Panasonic line did not match the Kuro @ the shoot out .
If I posted misinformation, so did you.

MOST of the Kuros have indeed been matched in black level and bettered in other areas. It sounds like you are taking it personally, starting all the way back with the rolling eyes and the snippy comment about some alternate shootout.

Have a good evening.
qwknuf6's Avatar qwknuf6 09:54 PM 05-12-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

In that case, I think you got the wrong impression. What the Kuro managed to do is keep up with the two Pannys and the Sammy in several performance categories—and it does have a killer deep black. But, it certainly was not better than the new plasma sets, in any appreciable manner. 

I think I will call you on that one
qwknuf6's Avatar qwknuf6 10:03 PM 05-12-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

If I posted misinformation, so did you.

MOST of the Kuros have indeed been matched in black level and bettered in other areas. It sounds like you are taking it personally, starting all the way back with the rolling eyes and the snippy comment about some alternate shootout.

Have a good evening.

The shootout #s do not back up your conclusion , I cant help you rolleyes.gif

Welcome to my ignore list
imagic's Avatar imagic 10:04 PM 05-12-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by qwknuf6 View Post


I think I will call you on that one

 

Right on. Somehow, watching the event via web stream gave you insight that eluded me, even though I was there. I'm sure you'll have fun arguing your position over the next few days. Like Vinnie97 already said, good night.


qwknuf6's Avatar qwknuf6 10:21 PM 05-12-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

Right on. Because somehow your web stream gave you insight that eluded me, even though I was there. I'm sure you'll have fun arguing your position over the next few days. Like Vinnie97 already said, good night.

I did not come to that conclusion on what I saw online . I looked at the measurements
and what the calibrators had to say , D-Nice for example , he calibrated the Panasonic and Pioneer , D-Nice stated the Kuro has superior PQ to the Panasonic displays , did you do anything besides sit and watch ? Did you calibrate anything ? Do you own a Kuro or a VT-60 or ZT-60?
imagic's Avatar imagic 08:21 AM 05-13-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by qwknuf6 View Post


I did not come to that conclusion on what I saw online . I looked at the measurements
and what the calibrators had to say , D-Nice for example
, he calibrated the Panasonic and Pioneer , D-Nice stated the Kuro has superior PQ to the Panasonic displays , did you do anything besides sit and watch ? Did you calibrate anything ? Do you own a Kuro or a VT-60 or ZT-60?

D-Nice said this one hour ago:

Quote:
"The results should be out today. Very, very close result set." - D-Nice

I reported on the event. I can't write an article about results that are not even published yet. eek.gif


Tags: Panasonic Viera Tc P65zt60 65 Inch Plasma Hdtv , Panasonic Viera Tc P60zt60 60 Inch Plasma Tv
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