Panasonic ZT60 is Potential "Kuro Killer," Plasma Not Dead Yet - Page 5 - AVS Forum
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post #121 of 147 Old 05-13-2013, 07:25 AM
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LOL! Too funny! It's been happening to often lately that we have resident "AVS Expert" that try (and fail miserably) to be more "knowledgeable" (read: trolling) than the industry insiders (such as Imagic)

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post #122 of 147 Old 05-13-2013, 08:50 AM
 
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I don't know if I'd call what he's doing trolling, but the one to which he is responding is certainly being difficult and NOT giving an inch of credit where it's due.
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post #123 of 147 Old 05-13-2013, 12:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

I don't know. I was there Friday night... were you there? I'm just telling you what I saw, I'm sure other people will come to different conclusions. I know the Kuro measures well, but in that darkened room when displaying a blacvk screen, the Kuro had a static dither pattern in the blacks while the ZT60's deep blacks were totally smooth.

The difference is so vanishingly small it's near-impossible to detect with the naked eye, from normal viewing distances. The VT60 really does match the ZT60 quality-wise and is a smidgeon brighter which makes it the overall winner IMO.

The kuro had noisy blacks - are you sure ? confused.gif I have (unless faulty) never heard or seen anything like it before.

Domestic Panasonic plasmas on the other hand, comes with the territory these days seemingly/apparently
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post #124 of 147 Old 05-13-2013, 12:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Stu03 View Post

The kuro had noisy blacks - are you sure ? confused.gif I have never heard or seen anything like it before.

Domestic Panasonic plasmas on the other hand, comes with the territory these days seemingly/apparently

I am 100 percent certain of what I saw. I was standing right next to D-Nice and I asked him about it, pointed it out and he concurred it was there. That did not stop to the Kuro from measuring as low, or looking as good as it did, but it was a visible artifact. My camera picked up the effect as well. Believe me, I would not want to be mistaken about something like that.

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post #125 of 147 Old 05-13-2013, 01:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

I am 100 percent certain of what I saw. I was standing right next to D-Nice and I asked him about it, pointed it out and he concurred it was there. That did not stop to The Kuro from measuring as low, or looking as good as it did, but it was a visible artifact. My camera picked up the effect as well. Believe me, I would not want to be mistaken about something like that.

Hi not disputing what you saw. Just very strange is all, and not common
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post #126 of 147 Old 05-13-2013, 01:30 PM
 
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There was a gash in the screen, so who knows what kind of abuse the panel had experienced. D-Nice also commented that it wasn't the best month of production for that particular panel with regards to QC.
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post #127 of 147 Old 05-13-2013, 01:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

There was a gash in the screen, so who knows what kind of abuse the panel had experienced. D-Nice also commented that it wasn't the best month of production for that particular panel with regards to QC.

It was Robert Zohn's own Kuro, with only about 300 hours on it. It was located in Roberts personal gym, which is why the total hours are so low (Robert's joke, not mine). The (tiny 1/2") gash in the filter on the screen was unfortunate, but the history of the panel was well-known. D-Nice vouched that it represented a properly calibrated Kuro, on several occasions through the evening.

 

It's splitting hairs if we're reduced to citing best/worst months for production, IMO. Then why not wait a few months and see if even better ZT60's come out?


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post #128 of 147 Old 05-13-2013, 01:51 PM
 
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Actually, it had under 100 hours. wink.gif Anyway, I'm not trying to argue, just accounting for what could have resulted in whatever you saw, since that is apparently the only 500M you've ever seen in person (I assume). QC problems do have a way of rearing their head, even at the end of a panel's manufactured life (case in point being the Sharp Elite).
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post #129 of 147 Old 05-13-2013, 01:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

Actually, it had under 100 hours. wink.gif Anyway, I'm not trying to argue, just accounting for what could have resulted in whatever you saw, since that is apparently the only 500M you've ever seen in person (I assume). QC problems do have a way of rearing their head, even at the end of a panel's manufactured life (case in point being the Sharp Elite).

I feel like this is deja-vu versus the debate over the Kuro I saw in NY, which was also declared "faulty" because it did not look quite so perfect sitting next to a ZT60. So, did I mis-hear Robert regarding the hours on the panel, or is that a joke about how little he exercises?

 

Less than an hour before the results of the shoot-out get published.

 

If you have any doubts about what I saw, then read this bit by David MacKenzie

 

Quote:
One other observation is a very, very minor one which relates to the “cleanness” of the blacks. (This is extreme pixel-peeping, but that’s the sort of analysis you can expect from comparing two reference-level HDTVs). The KURO’s blacks tended to show a very fine “speckled” pattern with some pixels appearing minutely darker than others. It looked somewhat like static dither.

 

Here's the whole bit: http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/panasonic-txp60zt65b-201305062961.htm?page=Performance

 

Simply put, I notice things like that. It's what I do. That is an artifact seen on Kuros, not just this one sample.

 

Satisfied?


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post #130 of 147 Old 05-13-2013, 02:10 PM
 
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I had read that prior, too, but forgotten all about the shared observation. I don't know what panel he compared it to, but it supports what you saw (which I never doubted). In terms of the hours on the panel, I watched most of the shootout(s) and thought I overheard under 100 hours, but there's always a chance I'm incorrectly remembering.
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post #131 of 147 Old 05-13-2013, 03:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

I had read that prior, too, but forgotten all about the shared observation. I don't know what panel he compared it to, but it supports what you saw (which I never doubted). In terms of the hours on the panel, I watched most of the shootout(s) and thought I overheard under 100 hours, but there's always a chance I'm incorrectly remembering.

Your are right. Confirmed, only 100 hours, after they checked the service menu. I just saw the results BTWbiggrin.gif.


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post #132 of 147 Old 05-14-2013, 02:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

I feel like this is deja-vu versus the debate over the Kuro I saw in NY, which was also declared "faulty" because it did not look quite so perfect sitting next to a ZT60. So, did I mis-hear Robert regarding the hours on the panel, or is that a joke about how little he exercises?

Less than an hour before the results of the shoot-out get published.

If you have any doubts about what I saw, then read this bit by David MacKenzie


Here's the whole bit: http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/panasonic-txp60zt65b-201305062961.htm?page=Performance


Simply put, I notice things like that. It's what I do. That is an artifact seen on Kuros, not just this one sample.

Satisfied?

Nope.

It is (not) a common occurance on Pioneer Kuro's.

Of all the owners i have spoken to - none have ever reported this rare phenomenon.

Except for (one) in the UK. Who reported it to Pioneer years ago through a service technician. The service bloke said it wasn't normal, and he had never seen it before and suggested a replacement to Pioneer UK. But they refused. Although the guy on the phone admitted it was faulty - either due to a driving set up fault - or from a faulty component - but his and their hands were tied because of "guidelines".

Me personally have owned three different KRP's at different stages over the years - not one had this problem, and am about to go on to a fourth.

It isn't common.
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post #133 of 147 Old 05-14-2013, 05:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Stu03 View Post


Nope.

It is (not) a common occurance on Pioneer Kuro's.

Of all the owners i have spoken to - none have ever reported this rare phenomenon.

Except for (one) in the UK. Who reported it to Pioneer years ago through a service technician. The service bloke said it wasn't normal, and he had never seen it before and suggested a replacement to Pioneer UK. But they refused. Although the guy on the phone admitted it was faulty - either due to a driving set up fault - or from a faulty component - but his and their hands were tied because of "guidelines".

Me personally have owned three different KRP's at different stages over the years - not one had this problem, and am about to go on to a fourth.

It isn't common.

It appears that David MacKenzie and HDTVtest.com have run into the issue before, so it's not some fluke. Perhaps you need to modify the facts you assumptions rest upon. The fact is that I found flaws in both Kuros that were used in ZT60 comparisons this year. The automatic response is "The Kuro was broken." I wonder why three top-ranked calibrators would all vouch for a Kuro—with only 100 hours on the panel—as being properly calibrated, if it was not.

 

Turns out that on Friday, the Kuro's brightness control was set to +2 instead of +1, which probably made the static pattern a bit more visible than it would have been. The other attendees didn't see the pattern, so it's entirely possible that you've never noticed it, either.

Quote:
 We’ve also seen KURO plasmas which feature a more noticeable amount of this very minor speckling around the corners of the screen, which might suggest that the CEL itself on those panels does not age in a uniform manner. - source

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post #134 of 147 Old 05-14-2013, 06:31 AM
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It's funny to read all these comments from people stating that “this is not a true representation of the Kuro”—because thatʼs exactly what people were saying about their own TVs when photographic comparisons were being done between them and the Kuros.

David MacKenzieʼs measurements from the latest Panasonic sets put it as better than measured from the Kuros—the same on/off performance (black screen 0.003cd/m²) but better ANSI performance—0.004cd/m² rather than 0.006cd/m².

All Kuros have the red tint. I have tested several of them at this point, and they all exhibit this problem. If you look at the surface of the screen when itʼs off, the front filter actually has a red tint to it. (intentionally, to improve their red reproduction)

The issue is that the Kuros exhibit rising black levels over time—as do most Plasmas—and it starts to become more obvious.
Those comparative photographs look no different to any of the brand new Kuros I compared with a CRT.
The CRT showed neutral black levels (actually no black levels if you are looking at 100% black) and the Kuros all had that red tint.


I must admit that I am surprised that the Kuro is showing more saturated color in the comparative images—my experience with the Kuros was that while the 100% points measured well, the image looked quite desaturated when compared to other displays.
Perhaps the difference is that the Kuros were brighter and that just makes it look more saturated in the photograph.


But if the argument people want to make is “they should have used a new Kuro, not some old faded one”—well what does that say about the consistency of the Kuroʼs image over time?
While a brand new Kuro may have been a “reference quality” image (I disagree) clearly people still watching their Kuros today donʼt have that any more.
That being said, I donʼt believe that anything other than possibly black level increases would have happened as it aged—and those are not causing the red tint.

If Panasonic have matched or bested Pioneerʼs black levels, their superior gradation means that itʼs almost certainly a better set.
It sounds like Samsung may be the one to buy this year though. David has been saying that Samsungʼs Plasmas have been better than everyone elseʼs for at least a couple of years now, in every area except black level.
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post

More importantly it had superior rendition of the deepest shadows.
Honestly, this wasnʼt hard; the Kuros have terrible gradation and representation of shadow detail. They might appear to display every step down to 1% gray in isolation, but display an image with a wide range of detail, and you will see that the shadows have blocked up and are just solid areas of black.

To actually see all the shadow detail in a variety of images on the Kuros, I had to raise brightness to the point that it was no better than any other display on the market at the time they were released. (so about 3,000:1 rather than 30,000:1)
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post

Also all the pros at the shoot-out agreed the Samsung F8500 is revolutionary. With black levels that are impressively close to the Kuro, the F8500 literally blows away any high-end plasma that came before, it in terms of brightness capability.
But what is its ABL performance like? Does it still dim the image?

One of the main issues with Plasmas has not been their brightness—reference level is only 100cd/m²—but the fact that they are constantly adjusting the brightness level based on the picture content.
This means that you can calibrate them to 100cd/m² but with actual content, it could be as much as 50% dimmer than that, depending on the image displayed.

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Originally Posted by Stu03 View Post

The kuro had noisy blacks - are you sure ? confused.gif I have (unless faulty) never heard or seen anything like it before.
Kuros have a noisy/dithered image anywhere due to the way they address the panel to achieve their black level. They have very limited gradation and make heavy use of dither to try and mask it. (which works somewhat at 60Hz, but not at 72/100Hz)
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Originally Posted by Nightlord View Post

No, we're waiting for something better than Kuro 9G. What annoys people is reports of dethroning that doesn't hold water.
There have been few full array local-dimming LED sets which have bested the Kuro—but Plasma guys donʼt want to hear it. Edge-lit LCDs look crap, so how could any LCD look good? rolleyes.gif (though viewing angle is still terrible on them)
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Originally Posted by saprano View Post

Here's how a kuro really performs-
In isolation, you can make just about any flat panel look great in a photograph. You can take a crappy 1000:1 LCD and make it look like it has perfect black levels. Photographs only serve a purpose when you are doing comparative images with one set next to the other. They are a relative comparison, not an absolute one.

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Originally Posted by Stu03 View Post

It is (not) a common occurance on Pioneer Kuro's.

Of all the owners i have spoken to - none have ever reported this rare phenomenon.
It is there on all Kuros. Most people buying Kuros paid over the odds because they were buying “the best” rather than actually knowing much about evaluating image quality or wanting to inspect them up close.
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post

It appears that David MacKenzie and HDTVtest.com have run into the issue before, so it's not some fluke. Perhaps you need to modify the facts you assumptions rest upon. The fact is that I found flaws in both Kuros that were used in ZT60 comparisons this year. The automatic response is "The Kuro was broke." I wonder why three top-ranked calibrators would all vouch for a Kuro—with only 100 hours on the panel—as being properly calibrated, if it was not.
I canʼt vouch for anyone else but I do trust David. He knows what he is talking about and is far more critical in his evaluations of displays than most people.
If he says it was a fair comparison between calibrated displays, then it was.
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post #135 of 147 Old 05-14-2013, 06:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

There have been few full array local-dimming LED sets which have bested the Kuro—but Plasma guys donʼt want to hear it. Edge-lit LCDs look crap, so how could any LCD look good? rolleyes.gif (though viewing angle is still terrible on them)

...and their performance when asking them to do something viewable with old VHS-tapes. Analog tv-signals and VHS looks like crap on every LCD I've every tried. (And yes, I will be needing that for some years more, we're something like 3 years behind on taped tv-shows... tongue.gif)

On the other side, I'm definitely not a fan on how much heat the plasma charges the room with, so on that point I'm no fan... just having to cope...

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post #136 of 147 Old 05-14-2013, 08:23 AM
 
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So much hate to respond to, that it's hardly worth it. All plasma black levels rise? A 5-year-old set can't have reference levels? Can we have some evidence, omniscient one, or are you talking through your derriere (aka limited data set and your own anecdotes)? ABL is not the Goliath some make it out to be.
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post #137 of 147 Old 05-14-2013, 09:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

It's funny to read all these comments from people stating that “this is not a true representation of the Kuro”—because thatʼs exactly what people were saying about their own TVs when photographic comparisons were being done between them and the Kuros.

David MacKenzieʼs measurements from the latest Panasonic sets put it as better than measured from the Kuros—the same on/off performance (black screen 0.003cd/m²) but better ANSI performance—0.004cd/m² rather than 0.006cd/m².

All Kuros have the red tint. I have tested several of them at this point, and they all exhibit this problem. If you look at the surface of the screen when itʼs off, the front filter actually has a red tint to it. (intentionally, to improve their red reproduction)

The issue is that the Kuros exhibit rising black levels over time—as do most Plasmas—and it starts to become more obvious.
Those comparative photographs look no different to any of the brand new Kuros I compared with a CRT.
The CRT showed neutral black levels (actually no black levels if you are looking at 100% black) and the Kuros all had that red tint.


I must admit that I am surprised that the Kuro is showing more saturated color in the comparative images—my experience with the Kuros was that while the 100% points measured well, the image looked quite desaturated when compared to other displays.
Perhaps the difference is that the Kuros were brighter and that just makes it look more saturated in the photograph.


But if the argument people want to make is “they should have used a new Kuro, not some old faded one”—well what does that say about the consistency of the Kuroʼs image over time?
While a brand new Kuro may have been a “reference quality” image (I disagree) clearly people still watching their Kuros today donʼt have that any more.
That being said, I donʼt believe that anything other than possibly black level increases would have happened as it aged—and those are not causing the red tint.

If Panasonic have matched or bested Pioneerʼs black levels, their superior gradation means that itʼs almost certainly a better set.
It sounds like Samsung may be the one to buy this year though. David has been saying that Samsungʼs Plasmas have been better than everyone elseʼs for at least a couple of years now, in every area except black level.
Honestly, this wasnʼt hard; the Kuros have terrible gradation and representation of shadow detail. They might appear to display every step down to 1% gray in isolation, but display an image with a wide range of detail, and you will see that the shadows have blocked up and are just solid areas of black.

To actually see all the shadow detail in a variety of images on the Kuros, I had to raise brightness to the point that it was no better than any other display on the market at the time they were released. (so about 3,000:1 rather than 30,000:1)
But what is its ABL performance like? Does it still dim the image?

One of the main issues with Plasmas has not been their brightness—reference level is only 100cd/m²—but the fact that they are constantly adjusting the brightness level based on the picture content.
This means that you can calibrate them to 100cd/m² but with actual content, it could be as much as 50% dimmer than that, depending on the image displayed.
Kuros have a noisy/dithered image anywhere due to the way they address the panel to achieve their black level. They have very limited gradation and make heavy use of dither to try and mask it. (which works somewhat at 60Hz, but not at 72/100Hz)
There have been few full array local-dimming LED sets which have bested the Kuro—but Plasma guys donʼt want to hear it. Edge-lit LCDs look crap, so how could any LCD look good? rolleyes.gif (though viewing angle is still terrible on them)
In isolation, you can make just about any flat panel look great in a photograph. You can take a crappy 1000:1 LCD and make it look like it has perfect black levels. Photographs only serve a purpose when you are doing comparative images with one set next to the other. They are a relative comparison, not an absolute one.
It is there on all Kuros. Most people buying Kuros paid over the odds because they were buying “the best” rather than actually knowing much about evaluating image quality or wanting to inspect them up close.
I canʼt vouch for anyone else but I do trust David. He knows what he is talking about and is far more critical in his evaluations of displays than most people.
If he says it was a fair comparison between calibrated displays, then it was.

clueless
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post #138 of 147 Old 05-14-2013, 09:53 AM
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yeah, Chronoptimist has been trolling and spreading misinformation about Kuros for years now. The 9.5g Kuros still measure around 0.0005 fl after 5 years. You know for a fact the red tint problem is people seeing red in the pixels and it doesn't happen on all Kuros. It has nothing to do with the filter, I admit the filter does have a purplish tinge when viewed in bright light . Just stop sounding so desperate and claiming every Kuro has every possible worst case scenario plasma problem. Enjoy your haloing on your Sony local dimming LCD.
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post #139 of 147 Old 05-14-2013, 11:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightlord View Post

...and their performance when asking them to do something viewable with old VHS-tapes. Analog tv-signals and VHS looks like crap on every LCD I've every tried. (And yes, I will be needing that for some years more, we're something like 3 years behind on taped tv-shows... tongue.gif)
That is primarily a result of the image processing, not the display technology. The only exception to that are the sub-HD plasmas they used to sell. The comparatively massive pixel structure compared to the 1080p displays we have now can help mask some of those problems. As far as I can remember, there was only ever one series of large sub-HD LCDs released. (actually, some of the very early panels might have been too, but they had many other issues)
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So much hate to respond to, that it's hardly worth it. All plasma black levels rise? A 5-year-old set can't have reference levels?
I think you misread my post. I never said that "all plasma black levels rise" - I said that most do. Most phosphor-based displays all suffer from that issue. My general understanding is that the phosphors are less responsive as they age, so the voltages used to drive the display are gradually increased to compensate for this. It's difficult to be accurate when implementing this as a general feature, so usually the voltages are raised above what they were when the set came out of the factory, relative to the phosphor's sensitivity. As a result, the black level rises. It's a problem with CRTs as well - particularly Trinitrons. If I recall correctly, you had the ability to adjust the G2 voltage on them to fix this. (a lot of people using FW900s run into this)

My second point was that, if people are claiming the set on display was somehow degraded through age (red tint on the blacks, looking desaturated next to the VT60 etc.) then those people also have to agree that it implies all the Kuros will be degrading as they age, and no longer offering the "reference-quality" image they once did. (though you won't have that anyway, unless you are scheduling touch-up calibrations on at least a yearly basis)
You will also see from reading my post that I do not agree with this, and think the only thing which may change over time is an increase in black level as the sensitivity/driving voltage changes over time.
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ABL is not the Goliath some make it out to be.
Makes them completely unsuitable for my use (which includes PC & Gaming) and I find it distracting when watching films.
While many CRTs used an ABL, it was essentially a solved problem for them - I measured less than 10% change off the last sets I used. (often less than 5%) The Kuros are dropping brightness by over 50%. (though the monitors were better for it)
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Originally Posted by Cimerrian View Post

You know for a fact the red tint problem is people seeing red in the pixels and it doesn't happen on all Kuros.
Adjusting the RGB bias controls in the ISF menu had little-to-no effect on this problem as I recall.
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Originally Posted by Cimerrian View Post

Just stop sounding so desperate and claiming every Kuro has every possible worst case scenario plasma problem.
Desperate? The Kuros are dead. They're out of production and haven't been sold for years at this point. The only thing I care about is how some people on the forums hold them up high as if nothing has ever approached or bested them in any way, or acting as if they didn't have a number of image-quality problems. The only thing they did really well compared to other sets at the time was black level. And they still looked gray in a dark room.

For example, a lot of the time, you might hear things like "the new Panasonic manages to have less dither noise than our reference Kuro" - which implies that they are better than the Kuros were and was huge challenge to overcome.
The reality is that the Kuros were worse than just about any other set on the market at the time for this problem, not that this Panasonic panel has finally bested it in that regard.
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post #140 of 147 Old 05-14-2013, 12:47 PM
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I hope you're aware that there's half a ton of unnecessary processing done by default by the Kuros, that at least MY ISF-calibrator turned off in a hurry. I'm certain they'd generate all sorts of noise/artifacts left on.

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post #141 of 147 Old 05-14-2013, 08:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

It's funny to read all these comments from people stating that “this is not a true representation of the Kuro”—because thatʼs exactly what people were saying about their own TVs when photographic comparisons were being done between them and the Kuros.

David MacKenzieʼs measurements from the latest Panasonic sets put it as better than measured from the Kuros—the same on/off performance (black screen 0.003cd/m²) but better ANSI performance—0.004cd/m² rather than 0.006cd/m².

All Kuros have the red tint. I have tested several of them at this point, and they all exhibit this problem. If you look at the surface of the screen when itʼs off, the front filter actually has a red tint to it. (intentionally, to improve their red reproduction)

The issue is that the Kuros exhibit rising black levels over time—as do most Plasmas—and it starts to become more obvious.
Those comparative photographs look no different to any of the brand new Kuros I compared with a CRT.
The CRT showed neutral black levels (actually no black levels if you are looking at 100% black) and the Kuros all had that red tint.


I must admit that I am surprised that the Kuro is showing more saturated color in the comparative images—my experience with the Kuros was that while the 100% points measured well, the image looked quite desaturated when compared to other displays.
Perhaps the difference is that the Kuros were brighter and that just makes it look more saturated in the photograph.


But if the argument people want to make is “they should have used a new Kuro, not some old faded one”—well what does that say about the consistency of the Kuroʼs image over time?
While a brand new Kuro may have been a “reference quality” image (I disagree) clearly people still watching their Kuros today donʼt have that any more.
That being said, I donʼt believe that anything other than possibly black level increases would have happened as it aged—and those are not causing the red tint.

If Panasonic have matched or bested Pioneerʼs black levels, their superior gradation means that itʼs almost certainly a better set.
It sounds like Samsung may be the one to buy this year though. David has been saying that Samsungʼs Plasmas have been better than everyone elseʼs for at least a couple of years now, in every area except black level.
Honestly, this wasnʼt hard; the Kuros have terrible gradation and representation of shadow detail. They might appear to display every step down to 1% gray in isolation, but display an image with a wide range of detail, and you will see that the shadows have blocked up and are just solid areas of black.

To actually see all the shadow detail in a variety of images on the Kuros, I had to raise brightness to the point that it was no better than any other display on the market at the time they were released. (so about 3,000:1 rather than 30,000:1)
But what is its ABL performance like? Does it still dim the image?

One of the main issues with Plasmas has not been their brightness—reference level is only 100cd/m²—but the fact that they are constantly adjusting the brightness level based on the picture content.
This means that you can calibrate them to 100cd/m² but with actual content, it could be as much as 50% dimmer than that, depending on the image displayed.
Kuros have a noisy/dithered image anywhere due to the way they address the panel to achieve their black level. They have very limited gradation and make heavy use of dither to try and mask it. (which works somewhat at 60Hz, but not at 72/100Hz)
There have been few full array local-dimming LED sets which have bested the Kuro—but Plasma guys donʼt want to hear it. Edge-lit LCDs look crap, so how could any LCD look good? rolleyes.gif (though viewing angle is still terrible on them)
In isolation, you can make just about any flat panel look great in a photograph. You can take a crappy 1000:1 LCD and make it look like it has perfect black levels. Photographs only serve a purpose when you are doing comparative images with one set next to the other. They are a relative comparison, not an absolute one.
It is there on all Kuros. Most people buying Kuros paid over the odds because they were buying “the best” rather than actually knowing much about evaluating image quality or wanting to inspect them up close.
I canʼt vouch for anyone else but I do trust David. He knows what he is talking about and is far more critical in his evaluations of displays than most people.
If he says it was a fair comparison between calibrated displays, then it was.

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post #142 of 147 Old 05-18-2013, 02:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Nightlord View Post

I hope you're aware that there's half a ton of unnecessary processing done by default by the Kuros, that at least MY ISF-calibrator turned off in a hurry. I'm certain they'd generate all sorts of noise/artifacts left on.

Definitely correct. Only Pure and the ISF modes are "Pure"

With Kuro's on an AV mode with no "hidden processing" - if a reference transfer is super clean sharp and clear. That is what you (will) see - at any distance.

If not you won't - because there isn't hidden processing unlike some other manufacturer's displays.
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post #143 of 147 Old 05-18-2013, 03:01 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post

It appears that David MacKenzie and HDTVtest.com have run into the issue before, so it's not some fluke. Perhaps you need to modify the facts you assumptions rest upon. The fact is that I found flaws in both Kuros that were used in ZT60 comparisons this year. The automatic response is "The Kuro was broken." I wonder why three top-ranked calibrators would all vouch for a Kuro—with only 100 hours on the panel—as being properly calibrated, if it was not.

Turns out that on Friday, the Kuro's brightness control was set to +2 instead of +1, which probably made the static pattern a bit more visible than it would have been. The other attendees didn't see the pattern, so it's entirely possible that you've never noticed it, either.

No it isn't possible i haven't noticed it over three different KRP panels. And believe me i have scrutinised each and every one. You would think if it was common (which it isn't btw) it would be a widespread reported issue.

Which it isn't btw.
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post #144 of 147 Old 05-18-2013, 05:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Stu03 View Post

No it isn't possible i haven't noticed it over three different KRP panels. And believe me i have scrutinised each and every one. You would think if it was common (which it isn't btw) it would be a widespread reported issue.

Which it isn't btw.

Other people seem to be running into that issue: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=uneven+kuro+black

It's good that your panels are working fine. I've found that often I notice things that only other pros, like the calibrators, notice. Side effect of 20 years working with color and light. Anyhow, from what I read, the calibrators "fixed" the issue on Saturday night.

Uneven black are not the only issue with aging Kuros. The filter is turning purple on some of them as well. Maybe it's my bad luck that I've seen two "flawed" Kuros in a row. At the shootout, the Kuro on-hand was supposed to be a direct response to the Kuro used at the Panasonic event in NYC, that I photographed looking a fair bit worse rendering shadow details, versus the ZT60. In that case, the "purple tint" was blamed for the poor performance and the Kuro Panasonic used was dismissed as "garbage from an alley."

If you re-watch the shoot-out, D-Nice absolutely vouched for the Kuro they used those two nights.

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post #145 of 147 Old 05-18-2013, 06:10 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post

Other people seem to be running into that issue: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=uneven+kuro+black

It's good that your panels are working fine. I've found that often I notice things that only other pros, like the calibrators, notice. Side effect of 20 years working with color and light. Anyhow, from what I read, the calibrators "fixed" the issue on Saturday night.

Uneven black are not the only issue with aging Kuros. The filter is turning purple on some of them as well.

Well that is good then that it was fixed then - goes to show that it wasn't a component issue then.

Was it a service menu driving issue presumably ?. Not all left the factory perfect - that has been proven. Was speaking to someone recently who's 500M had a (greenish) dithering in black - but only in black. And again - Pioneer refused to even acknowledge it. But it's clearly the way it was set up from the factory
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post #146 of 147 Old 05-18-2013, 06:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Stu03 View Post

Well that is good then that it was fixed then - goes to show that it wasn't a component issue then.

Was it a service menu driving issue presumably ?. Not all left the factory perfect - that has been proven. Was speaking to someone recently who's 500M had a (greenish) dithering in black - but only in black. And again - Pioneer refused to even acknowledge it. But it's clearly the way it was set up from the factory

The comment was that on Friday night the brightness control on the Kuro was set to +2, when in night mode—it should have been set to +1.
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Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

Here is something you don't know...The 500M's brightness control was set too high (+2 instead of +1) at Friday's demo. Its MLL would have read the stock MLL or higher for that model. Yet, everyone I spoke to that night still said the Kuro had better black levels. Saturday's demo had the correct brightness. Of course people still thought the Kuro was better.
If I'm a Pioneer fanboy, why did I replace my 4280HD with a ST60? I don't give a damn about a brand. I go with what is best. Whenever and whom ever makes a display that is better than the other displays I have in my house will get my money. Until then, my other Kuros will remain where they stay. Feel free to call me a fanboy for that.

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post #147 of 147 Old 05-18-2013, 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post

The comment was that on Friday night the brightness control on the Kuro was set to +2, when in night mode—it should have been set to +1.
[/quote/]

Cool thanks for this smile.gif

I missed the darned shootout live, unfortunately when you got a wee kid at home not all goes to plan at times mad.gif

Hope to see some on youtube eventually smile.gif
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