BDA to Determine if 4K Blu-ray is Feasible - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 109 Old 05-02-2013, 01:10 PM - Thread Starter
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If I had to name the most anticipated home-theater product of the year, it would have to be a 4K physical format. UHD displays have already started shipping to retail outlets around the world, but one piece of the puzzle still remains—content distribution. Netflix has announced that within two years, it will be streaming 4K content over the Internet. Sony has announced it will distribute 4K content via online downloading, and the company will start releasing "Mastered in 4K" Blu-rays on May 14, but these discs are still 1080p. On AVS Forum, there has been lots of speculation about quad-layer Blu-ray discs that can accommodate 100 GB or more, but nothing more definite has surfaced—until now.

In a statement given to CNET, the Blu-ray Disc Association (BDA) has confirmed that it is on the lookout for options to get 4K material on Blu-ray. In fact, the BDA has established a special 4K task force to work on gathering and analyzing proposals from professionals in the film and electronics industries. The task force is set to present its final recommendation to the BDA later this year.

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As part of its ongoing responsibility to maintain Blu-ray Disc as the premium platform for watching movies and other content at home, the BDA established a task force last year to study a range of possible format extensions, including those that potentially enable 4K content playback on Blu-ray.

Through the first quarter of this year, the task force solicited and received numerous proposals, and is now evaluating the various technologies.

The task force, which is comprised of representatives from BDA member studios, consumer-electronics manufacturers and media-technology companies, looks forward to sharing with and receiving input from content creators, and is expected to make specification and technology recommendations to the Blu-ray Disc Association board of directors later this year.

CNET

Many questions remain unanswered. H.265 compression is still in the works, as is the next-generation HDMI specification, but without an appropriate codec, no true bitrate can be calculated. Another big question arises if 4K does make it to the Blu-ray format—will it be compatible with legacy Blu-ray players (say, with some sort of automatic downconversion to 1080p), or will it require new hardware?

As streaming gains in popularity, every studio wants a piece of the action by starting its own streaming service. This has stirred things up, especially in light of the recent Netflix/Warner news. Will the whole streaming paradigm implode in the battle of film licensing? With all studios already behind the Blu-ray format, it remains the best physical-media option for now, especially since it is already found in most homes today. I believe the addition of 4K to the Blu-ray format depends on the codec (H.265) and transport (HDMI), and both still have a lot of unanswered questions. Only time will tell.

What do you think?

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post #2 of 109 Old 05-02-2013, 01:36 PM
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What I think is that it sounds like we are long ways off from having a decision on a 4k blu ray format. I was hoping something was around the corner but I understand that H.265 and HDMI 2.0 aren't even here yet either. mad.gif
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post #3 of 109 Old 05-02-2013, 03:14 PM
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In just matter in time it's going to happen
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post #4 of 109 Old 05-02-2013, 04:20 PM
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I would guess everything should be finalized by this summer. The H.265 codec has already been ratified and HDMI 2.0 will simply add more wires to allow for more and faster data throughput. If it is not ready in time they run the risk of Sony going with another proprietary codec and connector, something they loved doing in the past. We should know by this Christmas when the PS4 starts to ship. There is no way there will not be one last generation of physical media. They could barely stream their press conference just image millions of user streaming 4K, 1080p content and game downloads from the Sony servers.
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post #5 of 109 Old 05-02-2013, 04:43 PM
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God I hope this happens.

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post #6 of 109 Old 05-02-2013, 04:57 PM
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It would be nice if PS4 supported 4k BD playback.

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post #7 of 109 Old 05-02-2013, 04:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sytech View Post

I would guess everything should be finalized by this summer. The H.265 codec has already been ratified and HDMI 2.0 will simply add more wires to allow for more and faster data throughput. If it is not ready in time they run the risk of Sony going with another proprietary codec and connector, something they loved doing in the past. We should know by this Christmas when the PS4 starts to ship. There is no way there will not be one last generation of physical media. They could barely stream their press conference just image millions of user streaming 4K, 1080p content and game downloads from the Sony servers.

No problem as long as you live in Kansas City or Provo smile.gif
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post #8 of 109 Old 05-02-2013, 05:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

God I hope this happens.

+1 biggrin.gif

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post #9 of 109 Old 05-02-2013, 05:45 PM
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Things are moving too fast, most people (not the typical AVS members) are still catching on to full HD 1080p - Blu-ray Discs.

Blu-ray is not yet where DVD was when BD came out.

From 9ft away on my 65" plasma, I'll stick to 1080p cool.gif

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post #10 of 109 Old 05-02-2013, 06:21 PM
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God I hope this happens.

Me too!!

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post #11 of 109 Old 05-02-2013, 06:34 PM
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From the "is physical media dead" thread, there are many who could care less... eek.gif They are perfectly content with the quality of their current downloaded/streamed content and abhor the thought of any physical media.

I have high hopes for the emergence of 4K Blu-ray discs. Looking at the timeline of CE manufacturers upgrade pushes, 4K will be "dethrowned" by 8K just about the time 4K becomes as established as 1080p/Blu-ray is currently I imagine. That's also about the time I will "feel the need" for my own upgrade, and 4K flat panels will be available at Walmart for the average consumer at "affordable" prices. cool.gif
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post #12 of 109 Old 05-02-2013, 07:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nebrunner View Post

It would be nice if PS4 supported 4k BD playback.

They've already stated it will have the capability. But as others have pointed out in other threads, the issue has to do with the HDMI port the console will launch with. It will be limited to a max of 30hz at 2160p. That should suffice for UHD 2D material at 24p, but it won't be able to do UHD 3D or even output a regular old 60hz signal at UHD or 4K resolutions. The same thing can be said about current 4K/UHD displays. I'm sure the BDA is working closely with the team that's working on the new HDMI version to make sure everything will work accordingly.

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post #13 of 109 Old 05-02-2013, 07:50 PM
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It would be nice if PS4 supported 4k BD playback.

Indeed.smile.gif
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post #14 of 109 Old 05-02-2013, 07:56 PM
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Stop the presses!!!

Smeone at AVS already found the answer! He continually claims that 36 mbps h.264 is more than enough for human eyes to experience 4K and anything beyond that is just pure marketing!! eek.gif This way, BDA can just use the current BD-50 and the current compression system and only new player is needed!

I won't name the person's name but he posted this "fact" several times in various streaming threads albeit he never experienced 4K in his life! eek.giftongue.gif
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post #15 of 109 Old 05-02-2013, 07:56 PM
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Originally Posted by nebrunner View Post

It would be nice if PS4 supported 4k BD playback.

It does.

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post #16 of 109 Old 05-02-2013, 08:13 PM
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I can't wait to buy Jurassic Park again on Blu-Ray 4K, then Blu-Ray 4K 3D, then Blu-Ray 8K, then Blu-Ray 8K 3D!

In all seriousness, this needs to happen.
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post #17 of 109 Old 05-02-2013, 11:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blu_One View Post

Things are moving too fast, most people (not the typical AVS members) are still catching on to full HD 1080p - Blu-ray Discs.

Blu-ray is not yet where DVD was when BD came out.

From 9ft away on my 65" plasma, I'll stick to 1080p cool.gif

That's all well and good for you but I sit 12' from a 120" screen so I need 4K.
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post #18 of 109 Old 05-03-2013, 01:28 AM
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Can't wait to find out how many 4-layer 4K BDs end up in the shredder. They are tossing away half of them already just to make the 2-layer 50 GB discs using embossing. They are probably going to have to go back to layer stamping in order to get decent yields.

I also think compression is hitting a physical wall as well. I doubt h.265 will be that much more efficient over h.264.

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post #19 of 109 Old 05-03-2013, 02:48 AM
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I personally do not feel Blu-Ray 1080p movies have been out long enough to warrant an upgraded format. A nice high contrast 1080 DLP 120" screen still looks phenomenal with Blu-Ray.
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post #20 of 109 Old 05-03-2013, 02:50 AM
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They need to change media. Instead of bluray, UV-ray!
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post #21 of 109 Old 05-03-2013, 03:09 AM
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This should have been resolved before the 4k sets came out.
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post #22 of 109 Old 05-03-2013, 04:21 AM
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All the early reports on AVS were there wasn't going to be any 4K physical media. But I think they almost have to because streaming/diwnloading 4K is a fantasy through some of these ISP's.
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post #23 of 109 Old 05-03-2013, 05:42 AM
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Vinny, I think I'll be quite content watching this new format race from the sidelines. I'm ultra-content with well mastered 1080p (or excellent hd content via FIOS) on my 10 month old higher end panel...still well into my honeymoon and not feeling a pang for anything more except for less time at the office and yard work and more time plopped on my couch.

4k content and reasonable pricing will be right on schedule with my own clock as far as the next panel upgrade in 2016ish...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blu_One View Post

Things are moving too fast, most people (not the typical AVS members) are still catching on to full HD 1080p - Blu-ray Discs.

Blu-ray is not yet where DVD was when BD came out.

From 9ft away on my 65" plasma, I'll stick to 1080p cool.gif
...yea your right, blu has not hit that overall competency/content/functionality mark yet. I completely agree as I'm crazy happy 8 feet from my 60" panel....
You know how that "early adopter" money paying way over sticker price can make things crazy in the beginning. smile.gif

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Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

God I hope this happens.
...i love improved PQ options as well.

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Originally Posted by stepyourgameup View Post

That's all well and good for you but I sit 12' from a 120" screen so I need 4K.
...I can see your point because it seems like you'll need about 80" plus screens to visually realize the benefits of 4k. I'm sure on a 60" it will be a tad cleaner and sharper but not dramatic...very subtle.

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Originally Posted by blake18 View Post

I personally do not feel Blu-Ray 1080p movies have been out long enough to warrant an upgraded format. A nice high contrast 1080 DLP 120" screen still looks phenomenal with Blu-Ray.
...I love improved formats but...the blurage age does still feel young. I will say that my bluray to 4k upgrade list will be much shorter than the dvd to bluray upgrade initiative.

Bro's, my "old" Toshiba hdDVD player produce such amazing PQ quality for my legacy dvd collection that it curtailed alot of "upgrade" plans for the dvd to blu so...march on techno-video upgrades...you do your thing and I'll manage the budgetary aspect and will invest at the right time.

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post #24 of 109 Old 05-03-2013, 05:59 AM
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That's also about the time I will "feel the need" for my own upgrade, and 4K flat panels will be available at Walmart for the average consumer at "affordable" prices. cool.gif

They'll be available at WalMart a lot sooner than you think.
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post #25 of 109 Old 05-03-2013, 06:01 AM
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Originally Posted by sytech View Post

I would guess everything should be finalized by this summer. The H.265 codec has already been ratified and HDMI 2.0 will simply add more wires to allow for more and faster data throughput. If it is not ready in time they run the risk of Sony going with another proprietary codec and connector, something they loved doing in the past. We should know by this Christmas when the PS4 starts to ship. There is no way there will not be one last generation of physical media. They could barely stream their press conference just image millions of user streaming 4K, 1080p content and game downloads from the Sony servers.

Completely agree. It will be finalized this summer. The PS4 will have 4K support. Consumer electronics is stagnant. They need something new to sell.
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post #26 of 109 Old 05-03-2013, 06:19 AM
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Originally Posted by jevans64 View Post

Can't wait to find out how many 4-layer 4K BDs end up in the shredder. They are tossing away half of them already just to make the 2-layer 50 GB discs using embossing. They are probably going to have to go back to layer stamping in order to get decent yields.

I also think compression is hitting a physical wall as well. I doubt h.265 will be that much more efficient over h.264.

H.265 has already been shown to save at least 35% of the bandwidth over H.264. H.265 is more efficient than H.264.

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post #27 of 109 Old 05-03-2013, 06:40 AM
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No problem as long as you live in Kansas City or Provo smile.gif
I live in the suburbs of KC and I won't have access to Google Fiber for years, if at all. Roll-out has been only to very limited areas and last I checked it was pretty far behind schedule so if someone is waiting on a nation-wide Google Fiber network you may as well wish for unicorns farting rainbows.
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post #28 of 109 Old 05-03-2013, 07:56 AM
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No problem as long as you live in Kansas City or Provo smile.gif

I live about 10 miles from Provo, so no google fiber. frown.gif
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post #29 of 109 Old 05-03-2013, 07:58 AM
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Personally I think 4k is going to be to expensive to take off. Supposedly you can't see a difference until you get to an 80" panel and they get real expensive at that size.
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post #30 of 109 Old 05-03-2013, 09:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blu_One View Post

Things are moving too fast, most people (not the typical AVS members) are still catching on to full HD 1080p - Blu-ray Discs.

Blu-ray is not yet where DVD was when BD came out.

From 9ft away on my 65" plasma, I'll stick to 1080p cool.gif

I think that is the major problem. Technology development didn't move that fast even a decade ago. A format expectancy was supposed to last 10 years as VHS and DVD did. Even today though DVD still is available on the market even though prices on Blu-rays and players have gone down in price.

Today we are simply trying to catch up all time. It took the Chinese a couple of years before they started replicating technology and now, it only takes a few weeks. 4K was announced at Vegas in January. By the end of the month, Seiki at announced a UHD display at a 10th of the price of most large name manufacturers. Technology doesn't last as long anymore because of the constant development in the industry.

I think by the time it comes out, I will probably pick one up. The time I pick one up will probably coincide with the death of my current Blu-ray player. tongue.gif
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