2.35 Ultra-Wide Demystified—Free Panamorph/SI Webinar - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 60 Old 05-02-2013, 05:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Did you know that over 75% of the top-grossing movies are ultra-wide? These movies have an aspect ratio of 2.35:1, so when they are played on a high-def display with a screen aspect ratio of 16:9 (1.78:1), black letterbox bars appear above and below the active image. Consumers have been complaining about these black bars since the 16:9 format was first released. Fortunately, there is a solution available for those with a front-projection system—an anamorphic lens and 2.35:1 projection screen.

Panamorph and Screen Innovations are partnering to offer a free webinar on Wednesday, May 8, 2013, for a look inside the world of the ultra-wide 2.35:1 aspect ratio. This webinar will reveal the different solutions Panamorph and Screen Innovations can provide consumers to eliminate the black bars. In addition, these solutions allow consumers to enjoy these movies as the directors intended.




Russell Warnhoff and John Schuermann from Panamorph and Blake Vackar from Screen Innovations will present "Go Beyond Widescreen with UltraWide." They will discuss how to use anamorphic lenses and ultra-wide screens to achieve a true cinema-in-the-home experience. An open Q&A discussion will follow the presentation, providing an opportunity for anyone wanting to get into the ultra-wide format to ask questions directly to industry professionals.

The webinar is open to everyone without charge. You can immerse yourself with Panamorph and Screen Innovations on May 8, 2013 at 12pm EDT.

Space is limited, so be sure to register below.


Space is limited. Reserve your webinar seat now at https://www1.gotomeeting.com/register/312632696
Title: Go Beyond Widescreen with UltraWide
Date: Wednesday, May 8, 2013
Time: 12:00 PM – 1:00 PM EDT

After registering you will receive a confirmation email containing information about joining the webinar.

System Requirements

PC-based attendees
Windows 7, Vista, XP, or 2003 Server

Mac-based attendees
Mac OS X 10.6 or newer

Mobile attendees
iPhone, iPad, Android phone or tablet


If you attend the webinar, be sure to let us know what you thought of it.

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post #2 of 60 Old 05-03-2013, 01:49 PM
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What's the mystery? I would have thought even your average Joe would know about screen aspect and anamorphic lenses have been around forever (you can get a cheaper prism lens with some level of chromatic aberration or an expensive cylindrical one).
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post #3 of 60 Old 05-03-2013, 06:03 PM
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Originally Posted by 3dmaven View Post

What's the mystery? I would have thought even your average Joe would know about screen aspect and anamorphic lenses have been around forever (you can get a cheaper prism lens with some level of chromatic aberration or an expensive cylindrical one).


Of course, many AVSers know about this, but certainly not every average Joe does; many folks I talk with have no idea what this is, and many others do not understand it fully. So I think Panamorph and SI are doing a great thing to educate those who don't already know about anamorphic lenses. And it's free, so what's not to like?


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post #4 of 60 Old 05-03-2013, 06:11 PM
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It will be informative regardless. Never assume that everybody is as well versed as yourself. Besides, there may be something new info available that we don't know. Too bad I'll be on the road at that time, if not, I'd join in in a heartbeat.

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post #5 of 60 Old 05-04-2013, 06:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

It will be informative regardless. Never assume that everybody is as well versed as yourself. Besides, there may be something new info available that we don't know. Too bad I'll be on the road at that time, if not, I'd join in in a heartbeat.

+1.

With a Q&A after the presentation, this will be the perfect opportunity for anyone wanting more technical questions answered. There is no silly question. So ask away. wink.gif

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post #6 of 60 Old 05-04-2013, 10:20 AM
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First question" Do I get at least the same function real-estate for the same price. I remember with SD wide-screen TVs came; it was cheaper to by a TV with the same width and more height (the old aspect ratio). in order to "get rid of black bars across the top and bottom of some movies" you had to pay more money, get a smaller 4:3 picture, and accept black bars on the left and right.

Which brings me to the next several problems.
1) TV is not in ultra-wide. So we would need to accept bars on the right and left for all TV.
2) there is no single ratio for movies. Even within a single movie (I'm looking at you Dark Knight), it's not uncommon to change ratios.
3) Movies deliberately created widescreen in the first place to not look like TV. You are chasing a moving target.

In short: I fail to see the benefit unless they can give me *more* (non-black-bar) real-estate for the same dollar ; in which case the advantage is "bigger TV for movies".
Of course: at that point, many people go for a projector and controlled black covering like the theaters use.
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post #7 of 60 Old 05-04-2013, 10:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by JerryLove View Post

First question" Do I get at least the same function real-estate for the same price. I remember with SD wide-screen TVs came; it was cheaper to by a TV with the same width and more height (the old aspect ratio). in order to "get rid of black bars across the top and bottom of some movies" you had to pay more money, get a smaller 4:3 picture, and accept black bars on the left and right.

Which brings me to the next several problems.
1) TV is not in ultra-wide. So we would need to accept bars on the right and left for all TV.
2) there is no single ratio for movies. Even within a single movie (I'm looking at you Dark Knight), it's not uncommon to change ratios.
3) Movies deliberately created widescreen in the first place to not look like TV. You are chasing a moving target.

In short: I fail to see the benefit unless they can give me *more* (non-black-bar) real-estate for the same dollar ; in which case the advantage is "bigger TV for movies".
Of course: at that point, many people go for a projector and controlled black covering like the theaters use.


It's really a personal preference. I for one watch more movies than television. The majority of my Blu-rays are in a ultra-wide aspect ratio.

Many AVS'ers choose to use a projector with deep blacks such as JVC projectors. With the blacks being so black on a JVC, you don't notice as much the black bars on a 16:9 screen. Others will use an anamorphic lens or the zoom feature on the Panasonic projectors to fully expand the picture to an ultra-wide 2.35 screen. I prefer the look of a 2.35 film on a 2.35 screen. I also don't mind the side black bars on my ultra-wide screen during a 16:9 presentation. The best of both worlds would be to get an automatic masking screen system but I don't have a budget large enough for that. Again, it's more of a matter of preference.

The Panamorph webinar will help people understand the different solutions available in order to do both 16:9 an 2.35 aspect ratios using an anamorphic lens.

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post #8 of 60 Old 05-04-2013, 01:54 PM
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And which 2.35:1 is it? The old one which was used by CinemaScope and early Panavision, or the new one which is 2.39:1 which is the current Panavision (but usually called 2.40:1 on BD)?
Of course: If your favorite movies are older (say Lawrence of Arabia) then you actually need 1.75:1.
For IMAX you'll need 1.44:1, and 1.37:1, and 1.85:1
Digital Cinema 2k is 1.85:1
This is one of the Digital 4k standards, but the other is 1.85:1

And, of course, full aperture is 1.32:1

And if the current 6k (Red epic) catches on: we can expect a move to 3:1
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post #9 of 60 Old 05-04-2013, 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted by JerryLove View Post

And which 2.35:1 is it? The old one which was used by CinemaScope and early Panavision, or the new one which is 2.39:1 which is the current Panavision (but usually called 2.40:1 on BD)?
Of course: If your favorite movies are older (say Lawrence of Arabia) then you actually need 1.75:1.
For IMAX you'll need 1.44:1, and 1.37:1, and 1.85:1
Digital Cinema 2k is 1.85:1
This is one of the Digital 4k standards, but the other is 1.85:1

And, of course, full aperture is 1.32:1

And if the current 6k (Red epic) catches on: we can expect a move to 3:1

This really does become a pain in the butt, and 4-way masking starts to sound really good (though a CIH system with an anamorphic lens can be really good). Also, wasn't Lawrence of Arabia 2.20:1? 2001 A Space Odyssey was another odd one (2.21:1). Since most of what I watch is movies, I almost never use my projector's 16:9 aspect ratio, it is either 1.85:1 (with small black bars on top and bottom) or 2.35:1 (now 2.39:1) for the vast majority of what I watch. Since I haven't yet gone off the deep end and purchased an anamorphic lens I use a manual CIW masking system that covers the top and bottom of the screen. That system works fine for now, but it is a real pain when movies switch aspect somewhere in the middle (I remember Tron Legacy doing that). I guess I could motorize everything, but who has the time for such tinkering?

Also 3:1 sounds really cool to me (I think Ben Hur was almost that wide), though it would look like a thin ribbon on most any display.
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post #10 of 60 Old 05-04-2013, 02:31 PM
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I go CIH regardless of the AR. I can deal with pillarboxing but not so much with letterboxing for my projector-based HT room.

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post #11 of 60 Old 05-04-2013, 04:19 PM
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What's the mystery? I would have thought even your average Joe would know about screen aspect and anamorphic lenses have been around forever (you can get a cheaper prism lens with some level of chromatic aberration or an expensive cylindrical one).

Believe me - the average Joe has NO IDEA about aspect ratios. I will say that again - the average Joe has NO IDEA about aspect ratios.

As a trainer for Panamorph since 2006, I have tons of personal experience teaching not only average Joes. but INDUSTRY PROFESSIONALS about anamorphic and aspect ratios. Let me share with you a typical scenario that has played out for me literally over a hundred times:

I am teaching a class on anamorphic lenses, aspect ratios and the history of widescreen films. In the audience is typically forty or more home theater industry installers and even manufacturers (sometimes I have taught classes to over one hundred attendees). I ask this simple question before getting started:

"By show of hands, how many here are at least reasonably sure they know why there are black bars on the top and bottom of so many movies? Don't worry - I won't call on you. Just raise your hand if you think you know."

I am lucky if 3 hands go up. Time after time, presentation after presentation, I am lucky if 5% of the class has any idea what an aspect ratio is.

This just means that the home theater and motion picture industries have not done a good explaining to people what the black bars are all about, and why films are shot in various different formats. This webinar is an attempt to cover these topics in an easy to understand manner.

If you've ever had a friend, co-worker or relative complain about the black bars on movies, please have them attend this webinar smile.gif


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post #12 of 60 Old 05-04-2013, 10:04 PM
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Not only does the average Joe not know about the black bars, but they also can't tell when a 4:3 picture is stretched to a 16:9 screen as evidenced by EVERY HOTEL IN THE WHOLE DAMN COUNTRY!!
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post #13 of 60 Old 05-05-2013, 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post

Believe me - the average Joe has NO IDEA about aspect ratios. I will say that again - the average Joe has NO IDEA about aspect ratios.

As a trainer for Panamorph since 2006, I have tons of personal experience teaching not only average Joes. but INDUSTRY PROFESSIONALS about anamorphic and aspect ratios. Let me share with you a typical scenario that has played out for me literally over a hundred times:

I am teaching a class on anamorphic lenses, aspect ratios and the history of widescreen films. In the audience is typically forty or more home theater industry installers and even manufacturers (sometimes I have taught classes to over one hundred attendees). I ask this simple question before getting started:

"By show of hands, how many here are at least reasonably sure they know why there are black bars on the top and bottom of so many movies? Don't worry - I won't call on you. Just raise your hand if you think you know."

I am lucky if 3 hands go up. Time after time, presentation after presentation, I am lucky if 5% of the class has any idea what an aspect ratio is.

This just means that the home theater and motion picture industries have not done a good explaining to people what the black bars are all about, and why films are shot in various different formats. This webinar is an attempt to cover these topics in an easy to understand manner.

If you've ever had a friend, co-worker or relative complain about the black bars on movies, please have them attend this webinar smile.gif

Wow! I had no idea that this was such a little-known topic. Your experience doesn't inspire much confidence in "industry professionals."
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post #14 of 60 Old 05-05-2013, 07:48 PM
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Sad, but it's true. I've done training literally aound the world and the grasp of AR is extremely low amongst the so-called professionals frown.gif

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post #15 of 60 Old 05-06-2013, 12:19 PM
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Sad, but it's true. I've done training literally aound the world and the grasp of AR is extremely low amongst the so-called professionals frown.gif

This is very surprising to hear and like 3dmaven said....it doesn't inspire much confidence in industry "professionals" who should really be up-to-the-minute with the latest trends in home theater products and technology.

Panamorph's website splash page does a good job of immediately explaining the benefits of having an anamorphic lens (30% greater brightness and perceived resolution, 80% larger image) paired with the wider Cinemascope screen. I hope some of the time is devoted to installation strategies and requirements once the concept is explained.
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post #16 of 60 Old 05-06-2013, 01:34 PM
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I don't want to seem like I am coming down on "industry professionals" as a whole. I also want to qualify what I mean by industry professionals. I am talking about TV and projector manufacturer reps, who may be very knowledgeable about their respective products but know very little about how movies are made.

One of the things that surprised me is my own experiences traveling around the country with all of Panamorph's home theater industry partners. I always expected that I would be touring with a bunch of movie fanatics and that we would constantly be talking about film. However, most of the conversation was about sports. As a movie fanatic myself, sometimes I forget that most people watch more regular TV and sports in their "home theaters" than they do motion pictures. Things like aspect ratios are just not on their radar.


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post #17 of 60 Old 05-06-2013, 02:45 PM
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I agree with John and David. I deal with dealers a lot who have the "jist" of it, but when it comes down to the details they are not as up to speed as one would expect.


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post #18 of 60 Old 05-07-2013, 05:00 AM
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Is "Ultra-Wide" the agreed marketing speak in some stds comittee for what we've (my fellow HT enthusiasts) come to fondly call "scope" screens?

How long has "Ultra-Wide" been used in the movie industry?

Ultra tends to mean "more", like in Ultra HDTV is being used to pitch 4k Hi Def TV's.

Is it misleading to use "Ultra-Wide" because the Aspect Ratio used in the movie/film is a creative choice of the director?
That implies that "Ultra" is better compared to "normal" wide, when it is not better rather a choice of how the director wants to impact visually.

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post #19 of 60 Old 05-08-2013, 04:31 AM
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Is "Ultra-Wide" the agreed marketing speak in some stds comittee for what we've (my fellow HT enthusiasts) come to fondly call "scope" screens?

How long has "Ultra-Wide" been used in the movie industry?

Ultra tends to mean "more", like in Ultra HDTV is being used to pitch 4k Hi Def TV's.

Is it misleading to use "Ultra-Wide" because the Aspect Ratio used in the movie/film is a creative choice of the director?
That implies that "Ultra" is better compared to "normal" wide, when it is not better rather a choice of how the director wants to impact visually.

UltraWide is a new designation, one that Panamorph has developed along with its partners in the projector and projection screen industries. One thing that our collective experience has taught us is that terms like "235:1" or "anamorphic" or "scope" are lost on the vast majority of people - in fact, they simply are a source of confusion. "UltraWide" is an attempt to standardize home theater industry / end user references to films with an aspect ratio essentially 2.20:1 or greater, not so much for film enthusiasts like you or I, but for the general public.

Occasionally we have seen the term "Ultra Wide" show up in the movie industry but more as a descriptor than any kind of official term. Again, this is mainly an attempt to reach the general consumer and put all of these concepts into easy to understand terms.

Like you say, "ultra" tends to mean "more," and we are essentially using the term to differentiate from standard 16:9 widescreen. UltraWide is essentially "more wide" wink.gif. One of the top questions home theater dealers and installers get is, "I thought I was getting a widescreen system. Why are there still black bars on my movies?" By using the term UltraWide to describe 2.20:1 or wider films that question becomes easier to answer. "Yes, you have a widescreen system, but the movies you are watching are UltraWide."

Make sense? smile.gif


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post #20 of 60 Old 05-08-2013, 04:46 AM
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UltraWide is a new designation, one that Panamorph has developed along with its partners in the projector and projection screen industries. One thing that our collective experience has taught us is that terms like "235:1" or "anamorphic" or "scope" are lost on the vast majority of people - in fact, they simply are a source of confusion. "UltraWide" is an attempt to standardize home theater industry / end user references to films with an aspect ratio essentially 2.20:1 or greater, not so much for film enthusiasts like you or I, but for the general public.

Occasionally we have seen the term "Ultra Wide" show up in the movie industry but more as a descriptor than any kind of official term. Again, this is mainly an attempt to reach the general consumer and put all of these concepts into easy to understand terms.

Like you say, "ultra" tends to mean "more," and we are essentially using the term to differentiate from standard 16:9 widescreen. UltraWide is essentially "more wide" wink.gif. One of the top questions home theater dealers and installers get is, "I thought I was getting a widescreen system. Why are there still black bars on my movies?" By using the term UltraWide to describe 2.20:1 or wider films that question becomes easier to answer. "Yes, you have a widescreen system, but the movies you are watching are UltraWide."

Make sense? smile.gif

I have seen some monitor makers use the "ultrawide" designation, while others refer to their product as panoramic. We'll see if it catches on, personally I think it would be nice to stick with numerical descriptors.


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post #21 of 60 Old 05-08-2013, 10:01 AM
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Whelp, looks like I'm an hour late for the webinar, but maybe someone here can answer this question. If I have a full image on my 16:9 screen, no black bars. What will the exact aspect ratio when stretched with an anamorphic lens. Is it 2.37 to 1? Or will it vary based on the lens used?
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post #22 of 60 Old 05-08-2013, 10:17 AM
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it was a very nice experience , many thanks to all contributors
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post #23 of 60 Old 05-08-2013, 10:20 AM
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Originally Posted by cRock HT View Post

Whelp, looks like I'm an hour late for the webinar, but maybe someone here can answer this question. If I have a full image on my 16:9 screen, no black bars. What will the exact aspect ratio when stretched with an anamorphic lens. Is it 2.37 to 1? Or will it vary based on the lens used?

Actually, it varies based upon throw ratio. If the lens is in the recommended throw ratio range, yes, your aspect ratio will be around 2.37:1. If you are closer than say, 2.5X the screen height, you will probably end up with an aspect ratio of around 2.40:1. Further back than 3.5X the screen height, you could end up with a ratio of around 2.30:1 (!).

If you share you screen size / throw distance specs I can help you out a bit more.


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post #24 of 60 Old 05-08-2013, 10:27 AM
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I have seen some monitor makers use the "ultrawide" designation, while others refer to their product as panoramic. We'll see if it catches on, personally I think it would be nice to stick with numerical descriptors.

Personally, I agree. However, the CEA's consumer research has shown that the public at large is very uncomfortable with things like ratios, pixel counts, etc. I participated in on the CEA 4K Naming Committee meetings and I remember all of the discussion about what the industry should call this new format. Perhaps not surprisingly, "4K" had the lowest approval scores from the public but the highest approval scores from the industry folks on the committee. The favorite term among consumers? UltraHD of course wink.gif


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post #25 of 60 Old 05-08-2013, 10:27 AM
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it was a very nice experience , many thanks to all contributors

Thanks for your comments and for sitting in smile.gif
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post #26 of 60 Old 05-08-2013, 12:31 PM
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Thanks for the quick reply John. Screen will be 12 foot wide and the thow distance will be about 18 feet. It looks like it will be right at 3.5x. I had no idea that the throw ratio would make that much of a difference. Does the sweet spot vary that much from lens to lens?
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post #27 of 60 Old 05-08-2013, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by cRock HT View Post

Thanks for the quick reply John. Screen will be 12 foot wide and the thow distance will be about 18 feet. It looks like it will be right at 3.5x. I had no idea that the throw ratio would make that much of a difference. Does the sweet spot vary that much from lens to lens?

One more question - which lens are you considering?


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post #28 of 60 Old 05-09-2013, 12:05 AM
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I enjoyed the webinar this morning, many thanks to everyone that put it on for us. I understood everything that was discussed today so I'm looking forward to more advanced training to truly understand some benefits of different lens set ups that would work best for me without breaking the bank. I have a JVC RS4810 on a 148" Dalite 2.35:1 screen at a throw distance of around 16' from the front of the projector.

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post #29 of 60 Old 05-09-2013, 09:32 AM
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I was thinking about the cinavista lens to get my foot in the door, but would probaby invest more if there was a better fit as projector technology changes quickly, but a good investment in a lens upfront would last many years.
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post #30 of 60 Old 05-09-2013, 09:35 AM
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John,

The Webinar was interesting and some of the animations helped me clearly understand some of the principles.

I do have a question that I wanted to ask. What is generally considered the best aspect ratio screen to use with a Panamorph UH480?

I was thinking that a 2.37:1 screen might be the best overall compromise as the overscan would kind of be in the middle of the road so to speak!

Your impressions? confused.gif

Thanks!


...Glenn smile.gif
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