Japan's NHK: iOLED Solves Longevity Problem - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 56 Old 05-16-2013, 07:04 AM - Thread Starter
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OLED technology's grand debut in the world of large-screen televisions remains "just around the corner." One of the reasons for the delay is the inherent fragility of organic compounds. Exposure to air causes a rapid decrease in performance, and there is only so much manufacturers can do to protect the pixels using current panel configurations.


Compared to OLED, the position of the anode and cathode layers are inverted in a iOLED display

Japan's National Broadcasting Company—NHK—has performed research into a solution it calls iOLED, which involves inverting the anode and cathode layers as compared to traditional OLED construction. Apparently, the additional longevity comes from applying a protective coating over the cathode layer. The theoretical result is a panel that will retain its capacity to produce bright, vibrant images even if the overall environmental seal is compromised.

Is 2014 going to finally be the year OLED enters the market? Is there a good reason to worry about the longevity of first-generation panels, or will technological advances like iOLED guarantee a smooth global introduction for what promises to be the best-performing television technology when it finally arrives?
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OLED pixels that are exposed to the air can lose half of their brightness in just 100 days. Commercial products are of course protected from the elements, but they're not perfect. This is where iOLED comes in. NHK inverts the anode and cathode layers in traditional OLED configurations, hence the added "i", and then adds an additional protective coating above the cathode. The result is a display that retains its brightness even when not fully sealed from the environment. - Engadget

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post #2 of 56 Old 05-16-2013, 10:27 AM
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In theory it sounds good. What are your thoughts on this Mark?
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post #3 of 56 Old 05-16-2013, 10:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

In theory it sounds good. What are your thoughts on this Mark?

There is almost no information out there at the moment, I have not had time to think about the implications. I've certainly read people being concerned about the longevity of OLED, any construction methods that would ensure long-term performance are certainly welcome as long as they don't impact image quality. According to the original article, there should be more information on this new technology at Display Week, taking place in Vancouver from May 19 through May 24.

I've spent a week with my Galaxy S4, the 1080p OLED screen on that phone continues to blow me away with its amazingly deep blacks. It is also the first screen I have seen that has sufficient pixel density, it is impossible to see aliasing artifacts in diagonal lines. I think the technology is ready for prime time, I am starting to feel that I can hold onto my current television until it can be replaced with an OLED unit.

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post #4 of 56 Old 05-16-2013, 11:25 AM
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I have to think companies like Panasonic would not want to risk selling OLED until they are sure they will last. I don't think they could afford some type of SXRD situation with failing panels.......angry consumers, suits etc. Given all of their financial losses the last several years you would think any failure could put the nail in the TV division's coffin.
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post #5 of 56 Old 05-16-2013, 11:47 AM
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The problem with this article is that OLED longevity in televisions has nothing to do with the material being exposed to the elements. It has to be 100% sealed to work at all. I'm not at all clear why this red herring of better sealing is being used to imply this solves the longevity problem. This solves a problem related to physical exposure, perhaps, but has nothing to do with the issue of repeated excitation causing the material to effectively "wear out".
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There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #6 of 56 Old 05-16-2013, 12:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post

The problem with this article is that OLED longevity in televisions has nothing to do with the material being exposed to the elements. It has to be 100% sealed to work at all. I'm not at all clear why this red herring of better sealing is being used to imply this solves the longevity problem. This solves a problem related to physical exposure, perhaps, but has nothing to do with the issue of repeated excitation causing the material to effectively "wear out".

I understand exactly what you are saying; that aspect of longevity is directly tied to how many hours are on the panel.

Failure due to the physical exposure is an issue that also directly relates to longevity. If early iterations of OLED have panels with an operating life span in the low tens of thousands of hours, that would be enough for many early adopters—home theater types looking for a definitive Kuro-beater for deep black reproduction. If there is a risk that after a few years an air leak could destroy the whole panel, that is also longevity-related issue, arguably more relevant than whether OLED panels will fade or lose too much output to calibrate properly after (insert two-digit number number here) thousand hours.

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post #7 of 56 Old 05-16-2013, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post

There is almost no information out there at the moment, I have not had time to think about the implications. I've certainly read people being concerned about the longevity of OLED, any construction methods that would ensure long-term performance are certainly welcome as long as they don't impact image quality. According to the original article, there should be more information on this new technology at Display Week, taking place in Vancouver from May 19 through May 24.

I've spent a week with my Galaxy S4, the 1080p OLED screen on that phone continues to blow me away with its amazingly deep blacks. It is also the first screen I have seen that has sufficient pixel density, it is impossible to see aliasing artifacts in diagonal lines. I think the technology is ready for prime time, I am starting to feel that I can hold onto my current television until it can be replaced with an OLED unit.



There's no doubt the galaxy's OLED screen is pretty amazing. I will be interested in what is said in Vancouver and I'm trying to hold out on getting a new panel until this is perfected also. But I want 4K OLED biggrin.gif
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post #8 of 56 Old 05-16-2013, 09:28 PM
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One of the reasons people would have to learn to calibrate their own OLED (or iOLED) TV's. From what I've been reading, so far, OLEDs tend to Drift. Don't know whether the iOLED would have the same issues or not, but it appears that problem has yet to be solved. But for me with the equipment and software, good excuse to the wife as to why I'm avoiding her to do `Another' calibration!
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post #9 of 56 Old 05-17-2013, 04:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by p5browne View Post

One of the reasons people would have to learn to calibrate their own OLED (or iOLED) TV's. From what I've been reading, so far, OLEDs tend to Drift. Don't know whether the iOLED would have the same issues or not, but it appears that problem has yet to be solved. But for me with the equipment and software, good excuse to the wife as to why I'm avoiding her to do `Another' calibration!

My guess is that soon enough, TVs will self-calibrate.

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post #10 of 56 Old 05-17-2013, 04:31 AM
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My guess is that soon enough, TVs will self-calibrate.



Add this to my list, 4K self calibrating OLED biggrin.gif
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post #11 of 56 Old 05-17-2013, 06:22 AM
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I distinctly remember reading a short press release 2~ 2 1/2 years ago from one the "biggies" in OLED technology, Samsung, LG, Sony + Panasonic, that a milestone had been reached when they achieved an operating lifetime of 10.000 hours for the blue OLED, i can't remember if that amount was MTBF or best-of-tested batch.
Since apparently blue OLED has the shortest lifetime, does anyone know what is currently its estimated lifetime compared to red and green ? I would hope that fact has improved since then.
I've been kind of leery of OLED technology ever since reading about that " milestone" as well as the fact that just like CRT and plasma, the user should always be aware and careful about high contrast static images onscreen too long, not to mention station logo IDs.
I understand that LG OLED displays are using a simpler technology involving only white OLEDs coupled with layers of R/G/B filters instead of the more complex "true trio tech" of R/G/B OLEDs championed by Samsung which has provided very low yields of acceptable panels, and if i read correctly Sony + Panasonic have merged their OLED research and manufacturing line, and now this article from NHK. To me that's too much "in flux" still going on...
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post #12 of 56 Old 05-17-2013, 09:13 AM
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Originally Posted by JKR1963 View Post

I have to think companies like Panasonic would not want to risk selling OLED until they are sure they will last. I don't think they could afford some type of SXRD situation with failing panels.......angry consumers, suits etc. Given all of their financial losses the last several years you would think any failure could put the nail in the TV division's coffin.

waiting too long to get into the market could also be a death sentence. consumers assume whoever has been doing it longest should be doing it best. so even if panny waits one year, a lot of consumers will trust a 2nd gen product more than a 1st gen product.

i hope EVERYBODY waits until they get it right, but it's a grey area when good becomes good enough

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post #13 of 56 Old 05-17-2013, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post

waiting too long to get into the market could also be a death sentence. consumers assume whoever has been doing it longest should be doing it best. so even if panny waits one year, a lot of consumers will trust a 2nd gen product more than a 1st gen product.

i hope EVERYBODY waits until they get it right, but it's a grey area when good becomes good enough

As I recall Pioneer was first to sell plasmas but it was Panasonic and Samsung who prevailed as the market matured, so I don't know if what you say is valid. IMO the winner will be whoever produces a durable high quality OLED display at a reasonable price (compared to current plasmas/LED) as the market matures. Based on history I don't think Panasonic has to be first to market to achieve a decent market share in good time. One question I have is will the NHK technology, for whatever it's worth, be shared with all Japanese manufacturers as a matter of policy?

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post #14 of 56 Old 05-17-2013, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post

waiting too long to get into the market could also be a death sentence. consumers assume whoever has been doing it longest should be doing it best. so even if panny waits one year, a lot of consumers will trust a 2nd gen product more than a 1st gen product.
That hasn't been true since RCA Victor was putting knobs on TVs.

Today, it's who can make it cheapest, brand be damned.

When I go to most of my friends houses now, I see brand names on their TVs I never knew existed.
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post #15 of 56 Old 05-17-2013, 03:45 PM
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OK - 3 hours a day watching X 365 days in the year = 1095 Hours. Blue will last 10,000 Hrs = 10 years for the set. I doubt there's too many here that keep a TV longer than 3 to 5 years. So we're good to go!
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post #16 of 56 Old 05-17-2013, 04:38 PM
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Originally Posted by dsmith901 View Post

As I recall Pioneer was first to sell plasmas but it was Panasonic and Samsung who prevailed as the market matured, so I don't know if what you say is valid. IMO the winner will be whoever produces a durable high quality OLED display at a reasonable price (compared to current plasmas/LED) as the market matures. Based on history I don't think Panasonic has to be first to market to achieve a decent market share in good time. One question I have is will the NHK technology, for whatever it's worth, be shared with all Japanese manufacturers as a matter of policy?

I guess I should have specified i'm thinking short term. if releasing oled 1 or 2 years too early is enough to kill off Panasonic's tv division, then losing out on sales by being 1-2 years late might also be enough. a company like sony or Samsung that could coast a couple years will have no problems catching up. as would any company that can last through the 'transition' period. I was simply trying to say that if one or two years of bad sales is all that is needed to kill Panasonic, they could have a bad year because of plasma buyers switching to oled too.

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post #17 of 56 Old 05-17-2013, 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted by NetworkTV View Post

That hasn't been true since RCA Victor was putting knobs on TVs.

Today, it's who can make it cheapest, brand be damned.

When I go to most of my friends houses now, I see brand names on their TVs I never knew existed.

that may be true, but I don't see how Panasonic is competing against the Haier's on the market now. nobody is trying to decide between an st60 and an off-brand tv.

i'm sure there will be some early oled adopters that think the fact the tv is oled is good enough, and won't realize that a crappy tv is a crappy tv no matter the tech it uses. but I don't think those consumers have anything to do with this discussion really.


PS, you need new friends tongue.gif

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post #18 of 56 Old 05-17-2013, 04:50 PM
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OK - 3 hours a day watching X 365 days in the year = 1095 Hours. Blue will last 10,000 Hrs = 10 years for the set. I doubt there's too many here that keep a TV longer than 3 to 5 years. So we're good to go!

but 3 hrs a day might be on the low side if you have a family and everybody watches at different times. or if it does double duty as a pc monitor, gaming display, etc.

whether or not the actual panel life is a legitimate concern, ppl freaked out when they heard they 'only' had a 40 000hr panel life on their plasma. and I've seen the 60 000hr panel life advertised quite a few times like that was an important step up.

i'll say this much, if having a 4000hr bulb life on my projector is a concern, then a 10 000hr panel life on a daily run television is also a concern. I use my TV at least 5x as much as I use the projector. I was figuring an average of about 1 movie a week, so rounded up to like 3hrs a week when I bought the projector. and when I figured those numbers I thought it was acceptable, not necessarily good, but acceptable.

I may be in the minority here though, I expect my TV's to last a long time. IF I buy a new tv every 3-4years, I use the 'hand-me-down' system for the rest of the house. my old theatre tv ends up in the living room, old living room tv ends up in the bedroom, etc. I just bought a new tv this year, and the tv that was thrown out was purchased in 2001. I would not have bought a tv this year if that one did not break down. i'm upset that it only last me 12yrs.

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post #19 of 56 Old 05-17-2013, 05:07 PM - Thread Starter
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but 3 hrs a day might be on the low side if you have a family and everybody watches at different times. or if it does double duty as a pc monitor, gaming display, etc.

whether or not the actual panel life is a legitimate concern, ppl freaked out when they heard they 'only' had a 40 000hr panel life on their plasma. and I've seen the 60 000hr panel life advertised quite a few times like that was an important step up.

i'll say this much, if having a 4000hr bulb life on my projector is a concern, then a 10 000hr panel life on a daily run television is also a concern. I use my TV at least 5x as much as I use the projector. I was figuring an average of about 1 movie a week, so rounded up to like 3hrs a week when I bought the projector. and when I figured those numbers I thought it was acceptable, not necessarily good, but acceptable.

I may be in the minority here though, I expect my TV's to last a long time. IF I buy a new tv every 3-4years, I use the 'hand-me-down' system for the rest of the house. my old theatre tv ends up in the living room, old living room tv ends up in the bedroom, etc. I just bought a new tv this year, and the tv that was thrown out was purchased in 2001. I would not have bought a tv this year if that one did not break down. i'm upset that it only last me 12yrs.
It all depends on what you expect out of being early adopter. Someone who would buy an OLED on year one, expecting it to be a do it all TV for a decade... I understand the point of devils advocate style arguments, and I am a person who uses their TV 6 hours a day because I do the PC monitor thing. I would be fine with five years of solid performance from a display that had no match in terms of image quality. But I would also going into it feeling reasonably confident that in just a few years something as good or better would cost less

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post #20 of 56 Old 05-17-2013, 05:58 PM
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Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post

that may be true, but I don't see how Panasonic is competing against the Haier's on the market now. nobody is trying to decide between an st60 and an off-brand tv.

i'm sure there will be some early oled adopters that think the fact the tv is oled is good enough, and won't realize that a crappy tv is a crappy tv no matter the tech it uses. but I don't think those consumers have anything to do with this discussion really.
Sure they are - they just aren't looking at the brand name. They look at the price sticker.

Granted, people always walk into the TV section thinking "Sony" or "Panasonic", but then they start moving down the line toward the cheap stuff when they see what ignoring the brand can save them.

Those customers have everything to do with this, since those are the people that sustain a market. The early adopters may pay for the R&D, but the cheap blokes at Walmart are what keep they TVs being made - usually in China.

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It all depends on what you expect out of being early adopter. Someone who would buy an OLED on year one, expecting it to be a do it all TV for a decade... I understand the point of devils advocate style arguments, and I am a person who uses their TV 6 hours a day because I do the PC monitor thing. I would be fine with five years of solid performance from a display that had no match in terms of image quality. But I would also going into it feeling reasonably confident that in just a few years something as good or better would cost less
Honestly, quality of the product is usually not the issue with early adoption. In fact, the lifespan usually goes down for the mass market as corners start getting shaved to lower the price point.

The issue with early adoption is features. As a product evolves, more stuff gets put in the specs and there's always some new connector to screw the guy who got on board using the 1.0 tech. Just ask anyone with a TV that they bought pre-HDMI....
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post #21 of 56 Old 05-17-2013, 06:49 PM
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OK - 3 hours a day watching X 365 days in the year = 1095 Hours. Blue will last 10,000 Hrs = 10 years for the set. I doubt there's too many here that keep a TV longer than 3 to 5 years. So we're good to go!

The tv in my house is on for 8-10 hours a day 5-6 days a week. With 6 people in my house, it gets A LOT of use, and then when everyone goes to bed I watch movies or play video games and fall asleep with it on. This would completely kill the set for me much faster. Not that that is anyones fault but mine, but I'm just making a point. 10,000 hours isn't that many if it is the maximum lifespan.
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post #22 of 56 Old 05-17-2013, 09:40 PM
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If a Panasonic rep approached me and said, " for $6000 I will sell you a TV with perfect blacks, perfect color accuracy and flawless motion handing, but the catch is you will only get 4-5 years out of the set". I would make it rain hundos on his face... biggrin.gif

That said if the price was more like 10K I think I would be disappointed with that short of a life expectancy from a panel. (I run my TV 5-6 hours a day, I tend to turn on Netflix for background noise while I am doing other things...)

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post #23 of 56 Old 05-18-2013, 03:35 AM
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With the money already spent on R&D, I doubt the primary concern of manufacturers is what happens to the panels 5 years from now. TVs typically have warranties of 1-2 years. They care about the TV making it past the warranty period. If the image degrades over time, but still looks OK, most people won't notice. People kind of expect the image to deteriorate over time. What's most important is how the TV looks at the store and if the TV survives the warranty period. Of course the manufacturers want the TV to look as good as new for 10 years, but the reality is, they'll need top start recouping some of their investment soon. Long term, if the TV doesn't hold up well, they may lose some reputation, but they'll likely be in the same position as every other manufacturer and the problems will likely have been solved by then.
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post #24 of 56 Old 05-18-2013, 05:22 AM
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You have to admit that the average consumer is not the typical AVS member who replaces his/her panel every couple of years. I don't know the numbers but most dropping the kind of money expected for an OLED panel will use it till it fails. The manufacturer better be worried about their panels lasting 5 years because realistically that isn't a very long time. People who feel taken advantage of have long memories and big mouths. So if they only last 5 years or so how many will fail in the first couple of years? Lots. I want an OLED panel badly but if I have to worry about failure I'm waiting.
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post #25 of 56 Old 05-18-2013, 07:04 AM - Thread Starter
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You have to admit that the average consumer is not the typical AVS member who replaces his/her panel every couple of years. I don't know the numbers but most dropping the kind of money expected for an OLED panel will use it till it fails. The manufacturer better be worried about their panels lasting 5 years because realistically that isn't a very long time. People who feel taken advantage of have long memories and big mouths. So if they only last 5 years or so how many will fail in the first couple of years? Lots. I want an OLED panel badly but if I have to worry about failure I'm waiting.

Reading through the Wikipedia description, it seems the concerns are overblown. Considering that an OLED panel will be brighter than a plasma panel from the get-go, then the point when an OLED panel is actually as dim as a plasma is even further out than the time it takes to get to the half-brightness point, since all panels fade over time
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The biggest technical problem for OLEDs was the limited lifetime of the organic materials. One 2008 technical report on an OLED TV panel found that "After 1,000 hours the blue luminance degraded by 12%, the red by 7% and the green by 8%."[64] In particular, blue OLEDs historically have had a lifetime of around 14,000 hours to half original brightness (five years at 8 hours a day) when used for flat-panel displays. This is lower than the typical lifetime of LCD, LED or PDP technology—each currently rated for about 25,000–40,000 hours to half brightness, depending on manufacturer and model.[65][66] Degradation occurs due to the accumulation of nonradiative recombination centers and luminescence quenchers in the emissive zone. — wikipedia

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post #26 of 56 Old 05-18-2013, 07:29 AM
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Reading through the Wikipedia description, it seems the concerns are overblown. Considering that an OLED panel will be brighter than a plasma panel from the get-go, then the point when an OLED panel is actually as dim as a plasma is even further out than the time it takes to get to the half-brightness point, since all panels fade over time


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Originally Posted by imagic View Post

Reading through the Wikipedia description, it seems the concerns are overblown. Considering that an OLED panel will be brighter than a plasma panel from the get-go, then the point when an OLED panel is actually as dim as a plasma is even further out than the time it takes to get to the half-brightness point, since all panels fade over time



What it sounds like is OLED is going to need to be calibrated pretty often. So is it possible that will be included in the setup menu?
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post #27 of 56 Old 05-18-2013, 02:39 PM
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Everyone is worried about the Panel, when they should be more concerned with these Manufacturers putting 10V Capacitors in their TVs - guaranteed to fail! Always replace with 16 to 35V ones if they let go. (Aren't the boards working up to and including 12V?)
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post #28 of 56 Old 05-19-2013, 04:58 AM
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Looking forward to OLED displays in large screen sizes, at a reasonable price point.. biggrin.gif

The market is in need of something fresh at this point... 4k OLED's would be it for now I guess..

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post #29 of 56 Old 05-19-2013, 08:00 AM
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Looking forward to OLED displays in large screen sizes, at a reasonable price point.. biggrin.gif

The market is in need of something fresh at this point... 4k OLED's would be it for now I guess..

What we need NOW, is some 4K Standardization!
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post #30 of 56 Old 05-19-2013, 08:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Blu_One View Post

Looking forward to OLED displays in large screen sizes, at a reasonable price point.. biggrin.gif

The market is in need of something fresh at this point... 4k OLED's would be it for now I guess..



How about LG's OLED for $13,500? It's not even 4K it's 1080p.
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