Samsung Launching 55-inch and 65-inch UHDTVs In June - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 89 Old 05-20-2013, 09:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Samsung is ready to roll out new 55-inch and 65-inch UHDTVs featuring 2160p resolution. The new LED-edgelit panels feature "Micro Dimming Ultimate" (a type of pseudo local dimming) and are driven by Samsung's proprietary "Smart Evolution Kit," an upgradeable module that houses all the panel's inputs and video-processing circuitry.

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With Samsung offering 2160p resolution at the two most popular sizes of premium televisions, the only question is how much the new UHDTVs will cost. Sony has already set a precedent with under-$10,000 MSRPs for 55-inch and 65-inch units, so one can only hope that Samsung will follow suit.

One reason Samsung may feel comfortable charging a premium over Sony's near-4K offering is the upgradeability factor. The $299 Smart Evolution Kit allows for annual updates to Samsung's premium panels, insuring against rapid obsolescence. With 2160p UHDTVs, one of the main issues with first-generation sets is the inherently limited nature of the HDMI 1.4 spec. A new HDMI standard will support 2160p at frame rates above 30p, as well as other potential improvements in video quality. With the Smart Evolution Kit, Samsung UHDTVs may be the only ones that can keep up with these developments.

So far, the only information regarding the new Samsung UHDTVs is coming from a Korean-language press release that the media have been reading courtesy of Google translate. Hopefully, more information will come to light soon, including more product features and MSRPs. Stay tuned, the UHDTV revolution is here. Is Samsung's approach to obsolescence-proofing enough to convince early-adopting videophiles to take the UHDTV plunge?
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"Of course our next question is how these smaller models will compare to the $39,999 MSRP 85S9 UHD TV in price. Hopefully they'll follow the path blazed by Sony, which recently introduced models at that size with pricing well below the $10,000 benchmark, although we expect Seiki's 50-incher will still hold the crown for value pricing." Engadget

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post #2 of 89 Old 05-20-2013, 10:30 AM
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Since the UN85S9 is a FullArrayLocalDimming does that mean that the 55''/65'' are also FALD? Or Edge Lit Dimming? FALD would make the 55"/65'' more expensive and give them better PQ.


Some info suggested that Samsung and Sony 4K TVs would be upgraded. I would not buy a 4K TV right now unless they gave me a HDMI 2.0, 60fps upgrade garantee.
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Samsung and Sony to offer HDMI 2.0 upgrade for UHD TVs?


Samsung
Samsung emphasized at last week's IFA Global Press conference that none of the current 4k UHD (Ultra High Definition) televisions from the other manufacturers are really future-proof, as none of them are equipped with HDMI 2.0. HDMI 2.0 is still in development, and will make it possible to play UHD video at 50, 60 and even 120 frames per second. The HDMI 1.4a ports on current UHD TVs from Samsung, LG, Toshiba and Sony are able to receive full resolution UHD signals (3840x2160), but at no more than 24 frames per second. This is sufficient voor movies, but no enough for television broadcasts which uses 50 of 60 fps.


Future UHD broadcasts will therefore almost certainly be in 50, 60 or even 100 or 120 frames per second. The UHD TVs that are being sold now will not be compatible with those signals without an upgrade. Samsung says it will offer an upgrade kit with HDMI 2.0 port(s) and the option to retrofit UHD TVs sold this year with HDMI 2.0. Samsung is currently the only manufacturer to offer the possiblity to add hardware modules with new features and/or connectors to existing televisions.

Sony
At a 4K press event currently held in LA, Sony suggested that it will offer a solution to make its televisions compatible with the higher framerates when the new HDMI standard is officially unveiled. While none of the Sony reps were able to go on the record, they stongly hinted that consumers that are now buying 55, 65 or 84-inch UHD televisions won't be left out in the cold. That likely means that the input board in the TV could be replaced, but Sony did not want to get ahead of itself.


Sony is hinting that its 55, 65 and 84-inch X9 UHD TVs will be made compatible with HDMI 2.0.

http://uk.hardware.info/news/34661/samsung-and-sony-to-offer-hdmi-20-upgrade-for-uhd-tvs
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post #3 of 89 Old 05-20-2013, 10:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post

Since the UN85S9 is a FullArrayLocalDimming does that mean that the 55''/65'' are also FALD? Or Edge Lit Dimming? FALD would make the 55"/65'' more expensive and give them better PQ.

Some info suggested that Samsung and Sony 4K TVs would be upgraded. I would not buy a 4K TV right now unless they gave me a HDMI 2.0, 60fps upgrade garantee.

Samsung's "Micro Dimming Ultimate" technology is usually associated with the edge-lit models. Company reps have repeatedly stated that the Smart Upgrade Kit includes the HDMI inputs, so any update to the standard would be covered by an annual hardware upgrade. Samsung promises four years of compatibility with the Evo kits, from the date the panel is manufactured. When more info on these two UHDTVs becomes available, I will post an update.

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post #4 of 89 Old 05-20-2013, 12:39 PM
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Smart upgrade kits are a great idea. I hope it works out well for them. Specialty kits for different types of users would be fantastic as well. It's still out of my price range, but go Samsung!
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post #5 of 89 Old 05-20-2013, 03:00 PM
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For me even if I had the money I will not buy the first year of UHDTV's,now they talking about changing the hdmi spec to 2.0 plus you got to change your hometheater receiver or processor so im not in a rush to buy one
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post #6 of 89 Old 05-20-2013, 07:23 PM
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how does a SMART EVOLUTION KIT that upgrades the processor and smart interface have anything to do with UPGRADING THE PHYSICAL HDMI port?

Unfortunately for most the only way to upgrade a hdmi 1.4 to 2.0 will be switching out the circuit board which I doubt samsung will be doing for any of their tvs.

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Originally Posted by orijin View Post

how does a SMART EVOLUTION KIT that upgrades the processor and smart interface have anything to do with UPGRADING THE PHYSICAL HDMI port?

Unfortunately for most the only way to upgrade a hdmi 1.4 to 2.0 will be switching out the circuit board which I doubt samsung will be doing for any of their tvs.


As far as I know, the Evolution kit module includes all the I/O ports, including HDMI. So a future module could, indeed, include new HDMI ports.


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post #8 of 89 Old 05-20-2013, 07:59 PM
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The problem with Samsung is...Samsung. great product with reliability issue and lack of customer service. Just look at Samsung Canada facebook page, it's filled with nothing but customer service complaints.

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post #9 of 89 Old 05-20-2013, 08:23 PM
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the evolution kit does not include all i/o ports. The evolution kit is simply a tiny little black box that mounts onto the back of an existing television such as the f8000 es8000, they do not include any extra ports that is coming from seeing the evolution kit from CES 2013. Samsung could release one, but can you really rely on this evolution kit to "MAYBE" future proof your television? Probably not

"Twice Magazine reports that Michael Zoeller, Samsung's senior director of sales and marketing in Europe, basically advised people not to buy current 4K sets. Speaking before the IFA Global Press Event in Italy, Zoeller said "no IHD (Ultra HD) today will be compatible with the UHD standards to come."

Of course, Zoeller tried to soften the blow by adding that Samsung would soon introduce an "Evolution Kit," which is supposed to allow Samsung 4K sets to stay compatible with any new standard. But Zoeller acknowledged that the Evolution Kit would only be operative for four to five years."

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post #10 of 89 Old 05-20-2013, 09:33 PM
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Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

The problem with Samsung is...Samsung. great product with reliability issue and lack of customer service. Just look at Samsung Canada facebook page, it's filled with nothing but customer service complaints.

Not to go off topic, but I've never had any reliability issues with numerous products of theirs. In fact, their phones are the most bomb proof ones me and my family have owned over the years.
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post #11 of 89 Old 05-20-2013, 09:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orijin View Post

the evolution kit does not include all i/o ports. The evolution kit is simply a tiny little black box that mounts onto the back of an existing television such as the f8000 es8000, they do not include any extra ports that is coming from seeing the evolution kit from CES 2013. Samsung could release one, but can you really rely on this evolution kit to "MAYBE" future proof your television? Probably not

"Twice Magazine reports that Michael Zoeller, Samsung's senior director of sales and marketing in Europe, basically advised people not to buy current 4K sets. Speaking before the IFA Global Press Event in Italy, Zoeller said "no IHD (Ultra HD) today will be compatible with the UHD standards to come."

Of course, Zoeller tried to soften the blow by adding that Samsung would soon introduce an "Evolution Kit," which is supposed to allow Samsung 4K sets to stay compatible with any new standard. But Zoeller acknowledged that the Evolution Kit would only be operative for four to five years."

And even if they do go the route of a kit which okay, that's fair, and you think cheap cause they love you will be cheap to purchase umm maybe not. You think they are gonna say " we will upgrade you for $150. Place credit card here".

As an example, and hope my Classe pre/pro friends can help jiggle my memory but the SSP-800 was upgradeable from 1.3 to 1.4a. This was great and cheaper than a new pre-pro. I waited and got one of the first 1.4 from factory but I think the upgrade for others was $1500? Maybe a bit less. Going by memory as I got 1.4 from factory. Point is....

So yes $1500 is better than replacing a $10k processor and the upgrade is cheaper than a replace but IMO only if you think this upgrade kit is some bag of $199 parts I think you would be mistaken. Maybe I'm wrong but expect $1500 up for such a kit.

But the approach is good but alas there is no $199 upgrade path or even a $500 one. Bet on it....Ohh my opinion only!

Rick

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post #12 of 89 Old 05-20-2013, 10:10 PM
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Not to go off topic, but I've never had any reliability issues with numerous products of theirs. In fact, their phones are the most bomb proof ones me and my family have owned over the years.

You're lucky.
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post #13 of 89 Old 05-20-2013, 10:15 PM
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You're lucky.

Yes and I have stated in many threads that out of all my displays I have owned ver a 20 year period I have had one DOA out of box. Box looked just fine. Samsung display was totally dead.

I know crap happens but it is my one and only set DOA. it was their high end at time.

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post #14 of 89 Old 05-20-2013, 10:45 PM
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Not to go off topic, but I've never had any reliability issues with numerous products of theirs. In fact, their phones are the most bomb proof ones me and my family have owned over the years.

I'm not sure people are referring to their phones. For phones I would go to a store for my phone service provider where it can be serviced immediately. Trying to get service for their TVs, appliances, etc., well that's another story....
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post #15 of 89 Old 05-21-2013, 12:14 AM
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Whenever a company says "this will be upgradable" I hear "wait for the next model"...

My first HDTV was a Toshiba. I bought it before DVI was a standard, so all it had was component for HD. They promised an upgrade kit to DVI, but two things about that. One, DVI was short-lived and HDMI was the way to go pretty quickly... two, they conveniently forgot about that DVI upgrade promise... though if you pestered them about it they finally admitted it but it was a several hundred dollar upgrade for a connector that was already obsoleted by HDMI in the meantime.

When that TV died, I replaced it with a Samsung. I'm very happy with this Samsung, but wait... it came with early 3D support... and (you guessed it) a promise that full 3D support would be available as an upgrade "soon"... though in the meantime you could hook up a computer and see some 3D with certain software. Well, that 3D upgrade never really happened. Others on this forum were able to use a Mitsubishi-made 3D upgrade for their sets with the Samsung + some tinkering... but even then, it wasn't really full 3D support the same as on newer sets so I decided to not bother.

Meanwhile... I also own a Samsung combo HD-DVD/Blu-ray player... and the whole thing about Blu-ray players was a promise of firmware updates "whenever needed" to keep the player able to play the latest movies... except, a couple of years ago Samsung stopped supporting that combo player with firmware updates even though a long list of unplayable movies has been building. There's a thread here about that too. I bought a Sony Blu-ray player so I can watch my Blu-ray movies now.

So... Toshiba dropped a promise... Samsung has so far dropped two promises...

No way I'm going to be suckered by the "buy this UltraHD set now even though it doesn't have the connector that we already think you will need for future support and we promise that upgrade will be available to you" again.

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post #16 of 89 Old 05-21-2013, 12:35 AM
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I've never had issues with Samsung products. In fact, the reason I buy them is their reliability. Has that changed in the last 3 years?

Edit:
Did a bit of research and only found issues with blown caps. Not sure how that is their fault as caps have a rated lifespan, not to mention they are an easy replacement.
Replace them with some Rubycon, Chemicon, Nichicon caps and they're good for another 5 years or so.
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post #17 of 89 Old 05-21-2013, 02:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orijin View Post

the evolution kit does not include all i/o ports. The evolution kit is simply a tiny little black box that mounts onto the back of an existing television such as the f8000 es8000, they do not include any extra ports that is coming from seeing the evolution kit from CES 2013. Samsung could release one, but can you really rely on this evolution kit to "MAYBE" future proof your television? Probably not

"Twice Magazine reports that Michael Zoeller, Samsung's senior director of sales and marketing in Europe, basically advised people not to buy current 4K sets. Speaking before the IFA Global Press Event in Italy, Zoeller said "no IHD (Ultra HD) today will be compatible with the UHD standards to come."

Of course, Zoeller tried to soften the blow by adding that Samsung would soon introduce an "Evolution Kit," which is supposed to allow Samsung 4K sets to stay compatible with any new standard. But Zoeller acknowledged that the Evolution Kit would only be operative for four to five years."

The physical connectors for HDMI don't get replaced, but the location of the Smart Evolution Kit is a big hint that the HDMI chips could get upgraded. I've directly asked Samsung reps about it on multiple occasions. The response: HDMI standards are part of the Smart Evolution Kit upgrade capability.

As for Michael Zoeller, all he said was that the Smart Evolution Kit is good for four years of updates on any given model. That's official Samsung policy—four years of Smart Evolution compatibility is assured for any given model year. After that, you're on your own. It's still a very appealing option as compared to buying a TV that cannot be upgraded and is stuck with HDMI 1.4, when a new standard is released.

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post #18 of 89 Old 05-21-2013, 02:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Mr.SoftDome View Post

And even if they do go the route of a kit which okay, that's fair, and you think cheap cause they love you will be cheap to purchase umm maybe not. You think they are gonna say " we will upgrade you for $150. Place credit card here".

As an example, and hope my Classe pre/pro friends can help jiggle my memory but the SSP-800 was upgradeable from 1.3 to 1.4a. This was great and cheaper than a new pre-pro. I waited and got one of the first 1.4 from factory but I think the upgrade for others was $1500? Maybe a bit less. Going by memory as I got 1.4 from factory. Point is....

So yes $1500 is better than replacing a $10k processor and the upgrade is cheaper than a replace but IMO only if you think this upgrade kit is some bag of $199 parts I think you would be mistaken. Maybe I'm wrong but expect $1500 up for such a kit.

But the approach is good but alas there is no $199 upgrade path or even a $500 one. Bet on it....Ohh my opinion only!

Rick

$299 is the MSRP for the Smart Evolution Kit, and Samsung guarantees four years of updates for any given model that support the feature. Owners can also skip upgrades, if so desired.

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post #19 of 89 Old 05-21-2013, 03:05 AM
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Any idea if they will offer PC friendly modules with display port, or dual link dvi support for gaming and such? It would be cool if they offered different kits for different regions as well, but I'm getting ahead of myself.
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Any idea if they will offer PC friendly modules with display port, or dual link dvi support for gaming and such? It would be cool if they offered different kits for different regions as well, but I'm getting ahead of myself.

As it stands, the most likely path to increased frame rates (over 30p) at 2160p resolution, is an update to the HDMI spec.

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post #21 of 89 Old 05-21-2013, 04:52 AM
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Companies try and future proof their products, but at the rate things change, I don't believe they can be very effective, especially with emerging technology. I've owned receivers that come with the latest and greatest features that will become the next big thing......and never use it and never hear about it again.

I work with someone who owns a Samsung Blu-Ray player. A few weeks ago he received a firmware update and now his player does not work right. He called Samsung and got no help and of course he couldn't back out of the update so he's stuck with it. He has now sworn off Samsung and purchased another brand player.
So HDMe2...perhaps not getting updates isn't so bad after all. At least it still works with some Blu-Rays instead of none.

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post #22 of 89 Old 05-21-2013, 06:06 AM
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Is the model included with the purchase of a Samsung UHDTV?
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post #23 of 89 Old 05-21-2013, 06:36 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post

The physical connectors for HDMI don't get replaced, but the location of the Smart Evolution Kit is a big hint that the HDMI chips do get upgraded. I've directly asked Samsung reps about it on multiple occasions. HDMI is part of the Smart Evolution Kit upgrade capability.

As for Michael Zoeller, all he said was that the Smart Evolution Kit is good for four years of updates on any given model. That's official Samsung policy—four years of Smart Evolution compatibility is assured for any given model year. After that, you're on your own. It's still a very appealing option as compared to buying a TV that cannot be upgraded and is stuck with HDMI 1.4,when a new standard is released.

Well said and thanks for clearing up a few things that are like stagnant water and mosquitos.
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post #24 of 89 Old 05-21-2013, 09:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

The physical connectors for HDMI don't get replaced, but the location of the Smart Evolution Kit is a big hint that the HDMI chips do get upgraded. I've directly asked Samsung reps about it on multiple occasions. HDMI is part of the Smart Evolution Kit upgrade capability.

As for Michael Zoeller, all he said was that the Smart Evolution Kit is good for four years of updates on any given model. That's official Samsung policy—four years of Smart Evolution compatibility is assured for any given model year. After that, you're on your own. It's still a very appealing option as compared to buying a TV that cannot be upgraded and is stuck with HDMI 1.4, when a new standard is released.

Somebody crack open a Samsung Evo box to see it it contains the HDMI chipset, so we can put this to rest once and for all.
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post #25 of 89 Old 05-21-2013, 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by orijin View Post

the evolution kit does not include all i/o ports. The evolution kit is simply a tiny little black box that mounts onto the back of an existing television such as the f8000 es8000, they do not include any extra ports that is coming from seeing the evolution kit from CES 2013. Samsung could release one, but can you really rely on this evolution kit to "MAYBE" future proof your television? Probably not

"Twice Magazine reports that Michael Zoeller, Samsung's senior director of sales and marketing in Europe, basically advised people not to buy current 4K sets. Speaking before the IFA Global Press Event in Italy, Zoeller said "no IHD (Ultra HD) today will be compatible with the UHD standards to come."

Of course, Zoeller tried to soften the blow by adding that Samsung would soon introduce an "Evolution Kit," which is supposed to allow Samsung 4K sets to stay compatible with any new standard. But Zoeller acknowledged that the Evolution Kit would only be operative for four to five years."

According to Samsung, the Evo Kit for the 85-inch S9 UHDTV does, in fact, include all I/O connectors. In this case, it's called the One Connect, and it's different than the Evo Kits for Samsung's HDTVs. The One Connect could, in theory, include HDMI 2.0, DisplayPort, and other future UHD standards, though no future specs have been released. My contact at Samsung does not know if the Evo Kit for the 55 and 65-inch UHDTVs will have I/O connectors, but he's trying to find out. If I learn anything more from him, I'll certainly post that info here.

 

UPDATE: I just learned that the 55 and 65-inch UHDTVs will have the One Connect Evo Kit, so the I/O ports can, in fact, be updated. Whether or not they will remains to be seen, but it's theoretically possible.


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post #26 of 89 Old 05-21-2013, 05:11 PM
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When there are no 4K broadcasts why should Samsung update those 4K TVs...within 4 years? Eventhough there will be HDMI 2.0, when there is no content beyond some 24fps 4K stuff there is no need for Samsung to update. Also after 4/5 years a lot of folks will buy a new TV anyway.

USA 4K satellite broadcasts introduction:
http://advanced-television.com/2013/03/20/satellite-2013-4k-will-be-a-tv-game-changer/
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post #27 of 89 Old 05-21-2013, 07:36 PM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post

The physical connectors for HDMI don't get replaced, but the location of the Smart Evolution Kit is a big hint that the HDMI chips could get upgraded. I've directly asked Samsung reps about it on multiple occasions. The response: HDMI standards are part of the Smart Evolution Kit upgrade capability.

As for Michael Zoeller, all he said was that the Smart Evolution Kit is good for four years of updates on any given model. That's official Samsung policy—four years of Smart Evolution compatibility is assured for any given model year. After that, you're on your own. It's still a very appealing option as compared to buying a TV that cannot be upgraded and is stuck with HDMI 1.4, when a new standard is released.

The problem is HDMI chipset does not equal to a hdmi 2.0 port. HDMI 2.0 port even tho it will probably be compatible with previous hdmi ports there will be additional additional ridges that will allow the hdmi 2.0 cable to provide more information.

My theory comes from dvi port, older dvi ports do not necessarily have the same pins as newer dvi ports.

Of course this is all just speculation for now and the big IF, if hdmi 2.0 even gets release this year. (lets hope it does)

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post #28 of 89 Old 05-21-2013, 07:40 PM
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When there are no 4K broadcasts why should Samsung update those 4K TVs...within 4 years? Eventhough there will be HDMI 2.0, when there is no content beyond some 24fps 4K stuff there is no need for Samsung to update. Also after 4/5 years a lot of folks will buy a new TV anyway.

USA 4K satellite broadcasts introduction:
http://advanced-television.com/2013/03/20/satellite-2013-4k-will-be-a-tv-game-changer/

Seeing that films are still being shown in 24p in the near future, as a lot of people don't like the 48fps hobbit film. I personally liked it as the realistic soap opera feel did not bother me. 4k content in 30hz with hdmi 1.4a still wouldn't bother most people who don't like the soap opera effect anyway.

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post #29 of 89 Old 05-22-2013, 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by JeffreyJonesBSME View Post

Companies try and future proof their products, but at the rate things change, I don't believe they can be very effective, especially with emerging technology. I've owned receivers that come with the latest and greatest features that will become the next big thing......and never use it and never hear about it again.

I work with someone who owns a Samsung Blu-Ray player. A few weeks ago he received a firmware update and now his player does not work right. He called Samsung and got no help and of course he couldn't back out of the update so he's stuck with it. He has now sworn off Samsung and purchased another brand player.
So HDMe2...perhaps not getting updates isn't so bad after all. At least it still works with some Blu-Rays instead of none.

Point taken... but the thing that bugs me about the Blu-ray player is... those that agreed to join the Blu-ray group were together on the spec in allowing movie-makers to change things and agreed to update players accordingly. I'm not talking for new features, I'm just talking for basic playback... so a consumer who buys a Blu-ray player shouldn't expect to have to buy a new player every 2 years just to play the latest regular Blu-ray movies... and Samsung hasn't shown a lot of concern over that.

On the larger front... Samsung really didn't seem to care at all about their promised 3D upgrade to the model I own... and it starts to become a pattern.

Basically, I made the decision that I no longer listen to promises of future upgrades... I buy it is I want it for what it does now... and on that front, it doesn't sound like a wise-investment for these early model UHDTVs if we already know several components will be obsolete almost as soon as they hit the shelves.

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post #30 of 89 Old 05-22-2013, 12:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Point taken... but the thing that bugs me about the Blu-ray player is... those that agreed to join the Blu-ray group were together on the spec in allowing movie-makers to change things and agreed to update players accordingly. I'm not talking for new features, I'm just talking for basic playback... so a consumer who buys a Blu-ray player shouldn't expect to have to buy a new player every 2 years just to play the latest regular Blu-ray movies... and Samsung hasn't shown a lot of concern over that.

On the larger front... Samsung really didn't seem to care at all about their promised 3D upgrade to the model I own... and it starts to become a pattern.

Basically, I made the decision that I no longer listen to promises of future upgrades... I buy it is I want it for what it does now... and on that front, it doesn't sound like a wise-investment for these early model UHDTVs if we already know several components will be obsolete almost as soon as they hit the shelves.

That's not true for anyone except video gamer players with astonishingly powerful rigs. HDMI 1.4 is not an issue for movies or TV broadcasts @2160p. Upscaled 1080/60p is the approach XBOX and PS4 are taking, and it looks great. 2160/60p content is rare and it will remain rare for some time.

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