CNET calls ZT60 "Best-Performing TV We've Ever Tested" - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 164 Old 05-24-2013, 11:59 PM
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Originally Posted by rhed View Post

Aw.. Finally.. A Kuro Killer.. A 5 year old obsolete set vs a new and present set.rolleyes.gif.. I thought technology gets better every year.. A so called Kuro killer should have been a Kuro killer when Kuro is still in production..wink.gif

People always say this, and the videophile in me agrees to a small degree. What they fail to remember (or just choose not to remember) is that Pioneer went out of the tv business for a reason...... because they failed. They had a bad business plan, they didn't sell or make enough money on their tvs and lastly, they were too expensive. It was never just about matching the Kuros performance, it was about doing it in a way that allowed them to be affordable/marketable. With the new st line, they have very high (near kuro) performance at a very affordable price. With the vt/zt, they have kuro performance for a still cheaper price than you could get a new kuro for back then. I realize we get carried away here because we are videophiles, but in this day and age of crappy walmart vizio lcds, we should be glad that Panasonic has been able to hold on as long as they have (barely) with regard to producing tvs that satisfy more than just joe six pack at walmart at an affordable price..... and stop praising pioneer. If they had a better business plan, we would have more to choose from now. You should really be disappointed in them. Its like saying that Ford dropped the ball because their new 5.0 mustang gt can only run the 1/4 mile in the high 12's when covettes were doing it 5 years ago. Mustang Gt=$30 Corvette=$50. Not fair. At least chevy was smart enough to make the corvette marketable so people have the right to choose. I realize that analogy is a stretch, but it really is almost just as ridiculous.
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post #92 of 164 Old 05-25-2013, 01:36 AM
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Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

There's always room for improvement with ambient lighting in the room. I realize the 500M likely has an improved filter in comparison to my 111FD, but the latter does exhibit a fair bit of washout with all the windows present in the room.

I have seen an 8G looking black in a room full of light. Black i mean by matching the bezel.



But here anyway are a couple of images i found of a (111FD) with ambient light - one with daylight - one with ambient non direct lighting, looks black to me - and the daylight one doesn't in my opinion reflect anymore than any zt videos i have seen over the past few months when showing black. But the difference being of course the 111 will go blacker in blackout conditions and nearly double the max light output in non blackout conditions obviously.
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post #93 of 164 Old 05-25-2013, 06:24 AM
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I want one of them there Kuros -- where can I get a good price on a 65" with a good warranty?
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post #94 of 164 Old 05-25-2013, 08:15 AM
 
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The 111FD won't really go darker than a ZT in non-blackout conditions, maybe a smidgen? Depends on where the ambient light is emanting as to how much washout there is, Stu. This new filter, I believe, minimizes the appearance/spread of reflections, which I'm all for.
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post #95 of 164 Old 05-25-2013, 09:20 AM
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That 111FD image above though with the red flowers shows how well that 111FD retains black in a bright room full of daylight. Not a hint of grey - just black.
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post #96 of 164 Old 05-25-2013, 09:55 AM
 
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That hasn't been my experience exactly depending upon where the light is emanating. My sliding glass window to the right of the screen causes considerable washout and loss of black level perception.
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post #97 of 164 Old 05-26-2013, 01:29 PM
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imagic,

As an amateur camera enthusiast, I have a question/comment about you statement below. Is it correct to assume your photos were shot in raw format to avoid any automatic white balancing issues? The reason I am asking, doesn't extremely low light plays hell on white balance rendering such a comparison worthless? Thanks
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With a fixed aperture, a fixed ISO and a fixed shutter speed, a camera IS a light meter—there is little fundamental difference between a colorimiter and a DSLR pressed up against a screen. At the minimum, the camera will provide a hyper-accurate relative comparison of darkness/brightness
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post #98 of 164 Old 05-27-2013, 07:10 AM
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I hope when I die people will stand over my grave and say, "My God, this man wasted more time arguing over TVs than he did enjoying them."
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post #99 of 164 Old 05-27-2013, 07:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by canelli View Post

imagic,

As an amateur camera enthusiast, I have a question/comment about you statement below. Is it correct to assume your photos were shot in raw format to avoid any automatic white balancing issues? The reason I am asking, doesn't extremely low light plays hell on white balance rendering such a comparison worthless? Thanks

I rarely shoot anything but RAW files, and I did shoot RAW in this instance. However, white balance has no real bearing on an image's brightness, and that's all I was measuring.

When it comes to DLSRs and low light, the main issue is usually dim incandescent lights that are warmer than a camera's onboard WB setting—the result is yellow-looking JPEGs. That is a non-issue when photographing a television screen, they are all going to calibrated to something much closer to daylight white balance.

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post #100 of 164 Old 05-27-2013, 09:40 PM
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I will be shopping this year for a 65" plasma to replace my trusty old Sony KDS-60A3000.

I think I have narrowed it down to the ZT60 and the Samsung PN64F8500 plasma. Are there any reviews out yet comparing both sets? Seems like the Samsung will be able to be purchased at a greater discount but how is the performance?
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post #101 of 164 Old 05-28-2013, 05:52 AM
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In the end, you get what you pay for. I've encountered a whole lot more problems with Samsung brand (be it TV, HTiB or BD player) than any other brands (LG excepted) combined.

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post #102 of 164 Old 05-28-2013, 06:19 AM
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Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

In the end, you get what you pay for. I've encountered a whole lot more problems with Samsung brand (be it TV, HTiB or BD player) than any other brands (LG excepted) combined.


I agree with you Dave when it comes to Samsung. Except for their phones my experience with their other electronics have been nothing short of a disaster.
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post #103 of 164 Old 05-28-2013, 08:30 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Stu03 View Post

That 111FD image above though with the red flowers shows how well that 111FD retains black in a bright room full of daylight. Not a hint of grey - just black.
BTW, just wanted to mention that the recent HDTVtest meetup had similar findings (that coincided with my impressions of the shootout):
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To my eyes, the Panasonic ZT65, VT65 and Pioneer LX6090 were neck and neck in terms of black-level response, with the Samsung F8500 sitting a slight notch below (although it was capable of the brightest whites during high APL scenes). In the presence of ambient light hitting the screen, the letterboxing black bars on the Kuro would grey out the most, indicating how far anti-reflection filter technology has come since 4 years ago. Between the ZT and VT, the former held on to its blacks better in brighter conditions.

The filter is worth its weight in hype. wink.gif
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post #104 of 164 Old 05-28-2013, 09:02 AM
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Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

BTW, just wanted to mention that the recent HDTVtest meetup had similar findings (that coincided with my impressions of the shootout):
The filter is worth its weight in hype. wink.gif

Yep well.

As the image i posted (proves) the 111 filter retains black extremely well. No grey. It reflects like any plasma showing black. And i stand by that it doesn't reflect anymore than any AV forums ZT videos on YouTube.

I can't speak for one LX6090 that you bring up because it is only one panel out of tens of thousands of Kuro's. Many of the same model don't share the exact same filter, room conditions or settings, as the next.

What is the point of the filter if it can't push past 30FTL and (is) only bright enough for a darkened room. Great if it could go as bright as a Kuro - but it doesn't - nowhere near it.
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post #105 of 164 Old 05-28-2013, 09:04 AM
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Stu it doesn't go past 30 in isf. I believe I've seen as high as 47fl reported for thx modes


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post #106 of 164 Old 05-28-2013, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Stu03 View Post

Yep well.

As the image i posted (proves) the 111 filter retains black extremely well. No grey. It reflects like any plasma showing black. And i stand by that it doesn't reflect anymore than any AV forums ZT videos on YouTube.

I can't speak for one LX6090 that you bring up because it is only one panel out of tens of thousands of Kuro's. Many of the same model don't share the exact same filter, room conditions or settings, as the next.

What is the point of the filter if it can't push past 30FTL and (is) only bright enough for a darkened room. Great if it could go as bright as a Kuro - but it doesn't - nowhere near it.

People must be literally shining light directly on their screens if the blacks turn gray on their kuros. At night when i turn the overhead light on the blacks are unaffected. Same goes for daytime. I don't have light blasting on the screen that's why.

You can make your room as bright as you want, as long as the light isn't directly hitting the TV it going to look fine. I remember going to my dealer to look at the kuro- they had a 111 in the middle of the floor during the day in the SUMMER playing Pirates Of The Caribbean. The picture looked flawless because i'm sure they had the sense to face it away from the huge windows.

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post #107 of 164 Old 05-28-2013, 10:18 AM
 
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If Panasonic hasn't made any progress in this area with R&D in the 5 years since the death of Kuro, one has to wonder where all the money went. As I stated, I have a sliding glass window on the side that causes the Kuro to washout. Also, since the living room is connected to the kitchen (ranch-styled home), the small kitchen window is directly reflected (the only way to overcome this is by rearranging the furniture to specifically accommodate the TV, which is not entirely impossible but less than ideal). I am anxious to see how the ZT will minimize this reflection in particular.
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post #108 of 164 Old 05-28-2013, 12:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

If Panasonic hasn't made any progress in this area with R&D in the 5 years since the death of Kuro, one has to wonder where all the money went. As I stated, I have a sliding glass window on the side that causes the Kuro to washout. Also, since the living room is connected to the kitchen (ranch-styled home), the small kitchen window is directly reflected (the only way to overcome this is by rearranging the furniture to specifically accommodate the TV, which is not entirely impossible but less than ideal). I am anxious to see how the ZT will minimize this reflection in particular.

The filter performance of the Kuro has been surpassed—period. At this point only Kuro die-hard fans, and folks who judge HDTVs based on YouTube videos, would argue otherwise.
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To my eyes, the Panasonic ZT65, VT65 and Pioneer LX6090 were neck and neck in terms of black-level response, with the Samsung F8500 sitting a slight notch below (although it was capable of the brightest whites during high APL scenes). In the presence of ambient light hitting the screen, the letterboxing black bars on the Kuro would grey out the most, indicating how far anti-reflection filter technology has come since 4 years ago. Between the ZT and VT, the former held on to its blacks better in brighter conditions. Personally, I’d be happy to use any of the four plasmas as my main display for critical viewing – such is the quality available today to consumers who wish to enjoy the big-screen cinematic experience at home. - Vincent Teoh, HDTVtest
http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/zt65-kuro-201305283044.htm

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post #109 of 164 Old 05-28-2013, 12:51 PM
 
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Sigh, I'm not the one in disagreement here. I'm very open-minded about the topic. I already posted that referenced quote above, in fact. Not sure why you honed in on my post or think I'm that dense but it's kind of offensive.
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post #110 of 164 Old 05-28-2013, 01:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Oh wow, sorry that is not what I meant by that post at all! I meant to be supportive, not aggressive or argumentative in the slightest. It was meant as a follow up to your response to Stu to back up what you said.
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Sigh, I'm not the one in disagreement here. I'm very open-minded about the topic. I already posted that referenced quote above, in fact. Not sure why you honed in on my post or think I'm that dense but it's kind of offensive.

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post #111 of 164 Old 05-28-2013, 01:11 PM
 
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Fair enough, sorry for my misinterpretation. wink.gif It was a little confusing since I had already posted that quote in this thread, but I understand why you might think it bears repeating.
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post #112 of 164 Old 05-28-2013, 01:14 PM
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vinnie, if you end up not being satisfied with your ZT you can send it my way cool.gif

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post #113 of 164 Old 05-28-2013, 11:58 PM
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Nobody is saying the kuros filter hasn't been beaten. Stop putting words in peoples mouths(exactly how these things start as usual). It has. By many TV's actually. Not just this year. There have been other TV's that can perform better in the daytime. What we're saying is that the kuro can perform in lighting contrary to what people say. Other TVs will do better with light shining on it (though why would you watch TV that way I have no idea). Like the ZT. But if you have the kuro in a bright room and no strong light is hitting the TV, it will do just fine. Just like the ZT. The talk of the kuro can't work in a bright condition at all is just plain false. I watch TV at night with the light on in my viewing room and it looks just like the 111FD stu posted above.

Most importantly; everybody's viewing environment is different.

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post #114 of 164 Old 05-29-2013, 12:36 AM
 
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Frankly, it did seem like this post was poo-pooing the improvement represented by the ZT filter:
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Originally Posted by Stu03 View Post

I find it very strange that the Kuro's filters are not being mentioned - in my experience any ambient light in the room with a kuro filter and it looks 0MLL black. Unless pointed stupidly directly at the screen and very close and bright - most people wouldn't do that so what is the point. Why would anyone subject a tv to that unless it was a test - test maybe - but not in the real viewing world. The Kuro filter is perfectly good 98% of the time.

The ZT is clutching at straws in comparison.
I might have misinterpreted this post also of course (wouldn't be the first time!). Also, there's a fair bit of raving about it on the ZT owner thread and its ability to disperse light and reflections. These aren't from former Kuro owners, so maybe they don't have the proper reference...either way, can't wait to see for myself.

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post #115 of 164 Old 05-29-2013, 05:16 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by saprano View Post

Nobody is saying the kuros filter hasn't been beaten. Stop putting words in peoples mouths(exactly how these things start as usual). It has. By many TV's actually. Not just this year. There have been other TV's that can perform better in the daytime. What we're saying is that the kuro can perform in lighting contrary to what people say. Other TVs will do better with light shining on it (though why would you watch TV that way I have no idea). Like the ZT. But if you have the kuro in a bright room and no strong light is hitting the TV, it will do just fine. Just like the ZT. The talk of the kuro can't work in a bright condition at all is just plain false. I watch TV at night with the light on in my viewing room and it looks just like the 111FD stu posted above.

Most importantly; everybody's viewing environment is different.

Indeed, the vast majority of HDTVs look great in bright rooms, whether LED or Plasma. It's also likely that all this talk that the ZT60 can't get past 30 fL when it is calibrated in ISF mode—based entirely on the results of one commercially sponsored event—needs to be re-examined. Regarding the VE shootout:
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"We do not know why they got those results (we were not there), however we checked with Panasonic and they suggested we try the mid and high panel settings under the ZT60′s Advanced Menu while in the Professional1 (or 2) modes which are the ISF settings.

We tested maximum brightness using our Sencore VP 403′s 100 IRE window pattern (the same one we use for all our testing). The results were 34.8 ftl in Mid and 47.2 ftl in High. The Low was under 30 ftl. Contrast settings for these tests were at 100 (max)." - HDGURU.com

There's always a chance they calibrators made an error when calibrating the Panasonic units. If it was a real competition, the results would be independently verified. As it stands, the effort required to get it up to scientific standards would probably be cost-prohibitive. THe VE shootout is what it is, a marketing tool that helps VE sell TVs, and helps the guys who ran the shootout to make an living calibrating those TVs. It's certainly not the last word regarding which HDTV is "king."

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post #116 of 164 Old 05-29-2013, 05:22 AM
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That is correct. The settings (panel brightness) is there. The panel can easily hit 45 ftL. I don't understand why would any calibrator forget about that setting option.

I personally find the 45 ftL to be too bright for controlled lighting environment so I use mid-setting for night time calibration and high-setting for daytime viewing

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post #117 of 164 Old 05-29-2013, 05:28 AM - Thread Starter
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That is correct. The settings (panel brightness) is there. The panel can easily hit 45 ftL. I don't understand why would any calibrator forget about that setting option.

I personally find the 45 ftL to be too bright for controlled lighting environment so I use mid-setting for night time calibration and high-setting for daytime viewing

The issue is that if it's true, then the Samsung F8500 should not have won the audience vote, because perhaps the Panasonic VT60 and ZT60 should have performed better in calibrated day mode. The F8500 took the title by the tiniest margin based ONLY on one parameter—day mode performance.rolleyes.gif

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post #118 of 164 Old 05-29-2013, 06:44 AM
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That's why in my own shootout between 111, 8500 and ZT60, I don't find the Sammy to be brighter at all.

The shootout done and published should be considered null and void. Seriously, how can any decent calibrator don't realize the option of panel brightness? It was there on oth Sammy and Pana since at least last year!! eek.gif

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post #119 of 164 Old 05-29-2013, 08:11 AM
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Here's why Chad didn't use the panel in high brightness.

Panel brightness low raises the black level and seriously degrades contrast ratio, so I tried calibrating the VT60 in panel brightness mid and finally in high. As in the 30 and 50 series, panel brightness mid is the best choice for an accurate image. It allows a moderately bright image that is adequate for up to a normal family room ambient light level. However, some viewers may prefer a brighter image, so I attempted to calibrate a Day mode with panel brightness set to high. High allows about a 33% boost in light output, though it causes serious white crush at and above 95% at any contrast setting that gives a light output above about 26 fL. The white crush in PB high was visible with real images, so I consider both PB high and low seriously flawed at this time. However, in 3D mode PB high does not crush white and is perfectly usable.

Chad was able to achieve 43 fl for ISF day.

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post #120 of 164 Old 05-29-2013, 08:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

Frankly, it did seem like this post was poo-pooing the improvement represented by the ZT filter:
I might have misinterpreted this post also of course (wouldn't be the first time!). Also, there's a fair bit of raving about it on the ZT owner thread and its ability to disperse light and reflections. These aren't from former Kuro owners, so maybe they don't have the proper reference...either way, can't wait to see for myself.

Fatuglyguy, if you want to be responsible for the credit card balance, too, sure (the only way I could justify doing this is with a 0% promo APR). wink.gif


Not poo pooing it as you so pleasantly put your point :grin:

What i am trying to get across is the (fact) that the Kuro filter is 98% of the time suitable for even (bright daylight situations 98% of the time).

If you wanted to point an industrial spotlight at the Kuro from point blank range or stick the tv facing a window in the midday sun and wave a flag saying "look, it isn't as black looking as the ZT with ridiculous amounts of light pointing at it".

Great. But why would you want to do that. For a start (no) plasma is designed - not really. For that kind of punishment. Especially not one that struggles to get past a certain light output. Afaik the Kuro's can go to approximately 56FTL, perhaps more - so indeed would be much more suitable for such a ridiculous test. But for 'critical viewing' personally i don't want to be wearing sunglasses in the same room as i am watching tv... Certainly wouldn't be worrying about a bit of shadow detail here or there in a room that is ideally suited to ideally 50FTL output - at the very least.

Like you say, perhaps change the furniture around a bit, draw a curtain. Not rocket science.

I can't remember one occasion in four years the 500A "greying" out due to excessive light (or) sunlight. It looked black always - period. But then again i never felt the need to point a football field floodlight at it either wink.gif
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