Xbox One-Eighty: Microsoft removes always online DRM restrictions - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 42 Old 06-21-2013, 11:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Unable to withstand the pressure of mounting criticism, Microsoft has reversed course on its proposed DRM policy for games on the Xbox One.
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You told us how much you loved the flexibility you have today with games delivered on disc. The ability to lend, share, and resell these games at your discretion is of incredible importance to you. Also important to you is the freedom to play offline, for any length of time, anywhere in the world.

So, today I am announcing the following changes to Xbox One and how you can play, share, lend, and resell your games exactly as you do today on Xbox 360.

Microsoft envisioned the Xbox One as an always-connected central hub and storefront for all forms of entertainment. Internet connectivity graduated from a valuable but optional feature to an outright necessity. This tether enabled Microsoft to bridge the gap between physical and digital media, creating a hybrid format that could be physically distributed, but it imposed the same benefits and restrictions on usage and transfer as digital downloads. Disc-based games required online activation before they could be played. Once activated and installed, the disc would no longer be necessary, but the console would require periodic online check-ins. A loss of connectivity could leave you unable to access your library of games.

Those without reliable Internet connections or outside of supported regions were particularly affected, such as the military. The Navy Times called the Xbox One's Internet requirement "the single greatest sin Microsoft has committed against all service members." Many felt that without the ability to resell or share their game, the value of their purchase was diluted. Others feared that without the used and rental markets, they simply would be unable to afford full priced $60 retail games. Collectors lamented that the longevity of a game was tied to the status of the Xbox network—without the activation servers, the games would be locked away forever.

As an olive branch to gamers and retailers, a few distinctions remained between physical and digital games. Resale of discs was to be implemented through "participating retailers," and users could "give" games to friends, but never receive them back. Any meaningful user-to-user transfer of games was shut out. A myriad of confusing and arbitrary restrictions were imposed, seemingly in place only to protect corporate interests.

The magnitude of the negative response toward these changes can not be overstated—the vast majority of the gaming community was in total revolt. The introduction of a new platform is typically cause for celebration, but a dark cloud of negative sentiment threatened to rain on the Xbox One's parade. Microsoft was forced to divert attention away from promoting the Xbox One toward damage control.

The competition did not waste any time in responding. Sony's affirmation of the status quo was cause for a lengthy standing ovation at their event, and online sentiment turned quickly toward the Playstation 4. With a mass exodus of gamers vowing to leave its platform behind, Microsoft had little choice but to backpedal most of the proposed changes.
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We appreciate your passion, support and willingness to challenge the assumptions of digital licensing and connectivity. While we believe that the majority of people will play games online and access the cloud for both games and entertainment, we will give consumers the choice of both physical and digital content. We have listened and we have heard loud and clear from your feedback that you want the best of both worlds.

The message was indeed loud and clear: consumers are not prepared to give up the model of physical media that they are comfortable with. The proposed DRM could have been viewed as an attempt to accelerate the transition to a fully digital marketplace, but the rejection of hybrid media is a resounding affirmation of the viability of traditional physical media going forward. There are broader implications beyond the borders of the gaming industry—digital media of all forms will need to justify itself based upon its own merits, as consumers will not allow physical media to go quietly into the night.

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http://news.xbox.com/2013/06/update
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post #2 of 42 Old 06-21-2013, 12:26 PM
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"The magnitude of the negative response toward these changes can not be overstated—the vast majority of the gaming community was in total revolt." Agreed. And I was one of them. Although, that didn't stop me from pre-ordering the Xbox 1. Halo, Kinect, and it's media functionality are all appealing to me.

It was smart move by MS. For now, Xbox One is currently on top of the best seller list at amazon.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_sc_0_4?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=xbox%20one&sprefix=xbx+%2Caps%2C368
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post #3 of 42 Old 06-21-2013, 12:43 PM
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+ 1 

people are still moaning about the price of xbox one, enough!. It's almost the same price as building a "midrange pc" LOL. 

 

But not sure yet if i should buy xbox one because of DRM announcement. 


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post #4 of 42 Old 06-21-2013, 02:48 PM
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I am excited but dissapointed at the same time with the 180 that they made. Instead of completely nixing what they were working towards I think they should have incorporated both somehow.

For instance, Allow offline play if you have a copy on a disk but require online check in if playing a digital copy...

Why do I say this? This would allow people to play offline no matter how long they were not connected to the internet using the CD as the "Key". They could have easily still kept the sharing plan and everything as long as when playing a completely installed version you had to be online.

Would this have irritated games more? OF COURSE

anytime a DRM is implemented it can be frustrating...if done the wrong way.

But I would really like the ability to log into my account and play my games from a friends house without any disks.

I would also like to be able to share my games with friends on my "family list"

Luckily, it sounds like this initial setup is changing how the system works to make the gamers more happy. So there is a possibility to add this function back in the future.

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post #5 of 42 Old 06-21-2013, 03:01 PM - Thread Starter
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The problem with that scenario is that you'd be able to give the disc to an offline gamer, and both of you would be able to play the game indefinitely. It would go against the intent of their policies.

You will still be able to log in and play your games anywhere, as long as you buy the digital version. That, and the disc-less launching, are the primary advantages to the digital version.

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post #6 of 42 Old 06-21-2013, 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

The problem with that scenario is that you'd be able to give the disc to an offline gamer, and both of you would be able to play the game indefinitely. It would go against the intent of their policies.

You will still be able to log in and play your games anywhere, as long as you buy the digital version. That, and the disc-less launching, are the primary advantages to the digital version.

That is true I did not think about that angle.

I'll probably just buy all my games digitally then...

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post #7 of 42 Old 06-21-2013, 07:02 PM
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This situation makes me think of a prison shower scenario. xBone screams to a frail inmate (the consumer), "I'm going to rape you !" The inmate then cries many, many tears, and amazingly, the xBone decides not to rape him, because of all his tears. Then, the inmate, being so grateful for not being raped, decides to give himself to the xBone anyway (xBone being number 1 on amazon) because, well, he is so thrilled xBone listened to him and he didn't get raped. It makes no sense to me.
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post #8 of 42 Old 06-21-2013, 09:11 PM
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Sounds like Microsoft was just following in Apples path. No media and no way to sell an app after you have no use for it. And don't cry because of piracy. That's why games were so expensive. Since making piracy nearly impossible there still are no software companies who have reduced prices. What are the chances MS will price the digital version of Halo for under $30.00?

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post #9 of 42 Old 06-22-2013, 06:51 AM
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I'm glad they removed the DRM thing. I dont care much about the used game market but my brother tends to borrow my games once im done and that wouldnt work under their new DRM.
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post #10 of 42 Old 06-22-2013, 08:23 AM
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Was anybody surprised MS removed the not actually implemented yet drm? After all Sony was not going to do it.
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Originally Posted by darenwh View Post

Sounds like Microsoft was just following in Apples path. No media and no way to sell an app after you have no use for it. And don't cry because of piracy. That's why games were so expensive. Since making piracy nearly impossible there still are no software companies who have reduced prices. What are the chances MS will price the digital version of Halo for under $30.00?

Are you claiming Apple's "no media" has not been "pirated" or that MS drm plan would of stopped it?
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post #11 of 42 Old 06-22-2013, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by PcGeek626 View Post

+ 1 
people are still moaning about the price of xbox one, enough!. It's almost the same price as building a "midrange pc" LOL. 

But not sure yet if i should buy xbox one because of DRM announcement. 

Due to the ps4 being $100 less yet having quite a bit more powerful hardware.
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post #12 of 42 Old 06-22-2013, 10:23 AM
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I dont like the cut of Microsofts jib anymore. Next console I get will be the ps4
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post #13 of 42 Old 06-22-2013, 10:24 AM
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Well, Sony and Microsoft got A LOT OF FREE ADVERTISEMENT out of the PS4 vs. XBOX1 whateverthatwas rolleyes.gif


meanwile PS3 had problems after update to 4.45 (19-06-2013) and XBOX live down.

PS3 update problem
http://community.us.playstation.com/t5/PlayStation-3-Support/Problem-after-update-to-4-45/td-p/40712247


Xbox LIVE down 20-06-2013
https://twitter.com/XboxSupport/status/347780662054490113

^^19-06-2013 Microsoft changes strategy on XBOX1
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post #14 of 42 Old 06-22-2013, 11:30 AM
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I've been on the xbox camp for years. I do currently own both a 360 and ps3, but mainly just use the ps3 for blurays as I simply cannot use the regular ps3 controllers and have not been able to find a 360 clone that works well. I usually base my console purchase on the gameplay and exclusives, and for years ps3 simply hasn't had any exclusives that appealed to me. that was until twisted metal, which was the reason I bought the console in the first place, haha.

anyway. MS has slipped up bad, and quite frankly I don't think this is enough to make up for it. they have made it clear that are very concerned about protecting 'their' product, while sony seems to be continuing in the direction that a superior product at a better value is the way to go. what worries me is what MS will do 1, 2, 5yrs down the road. once the consumer has the console, and the games, and the accessories, it's going to be a lot harder to reject new changes. if MS implements a cloud based game system, that would be excuse enough to go back to this exact model. i'd hate to be stuck with hundreds of dollars into a gaming system just to find out the games I 'own' are no longer mine, and the console I 'own' can no longer be used unless I pay for another service.

the demos from both camps have been very intriguing. i'll give it to MS that they definitely seem to be stretching more, trying more creative things, and taking a lot more risks. but i'm also very skeptical of how well these things will work, and I feel for me, the bread and butter will be offline gaming experience.

I was never planning to buy either launch console, i'm happy with what I currently have. but i'm a little saddened because I simply love the xbox controllers, and i'm so familiar with the xbox system and game exclusives that I don't really want to give that up. but I feel like MS has shown it's true colors, and I just don't want to support that kind of company.

the solution to pirating is not more restrictive, lower value services. that's what caused most ppl to pirate games and mod consoles in the first place. the solution is to provide a superior product with a great value so that users don't need anything better. for the first timer, modding is really scary. it's not like they will get into that on a whim. I've never rooted an android device, or modded a ps3, because it works the way I want it to already. and the risk of messing it up isn't worth it. compared to an ipod that get's jailbroken on day one because it's nearly useless using the ultra restrictive, everything must be done through iTunes, even though iTunes will delete all my data if it's not backed up on both the ipod and computer unless you're very careful... anyway, I could rant for a while. bottom line is greed is the cause of their problems. if they charged what products were worth, ppl wouldn't be going through so much trouble to find alternative ways.

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post #15 of 42 Old 06-22-2013, 11:31 AM
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@BD2003:

That is an excellent synopsis of events regarding the rebooted XBox One Launch. Very well done! I still think their biggest sin of all was completely disregarding clear messages on forums like AVS, IGN, Gameinformer and others, from their most passionate users. It also seemed like they went out of their way to dispose of Single Play gaming preference. That single insult by them was simply staggerring to me...as I am certain it was with you. I don't know if there have been any studies done on this. But I bet single player gaming, remains...by far the overwhelming experience choice for all manner of gaming (Mobile, PC, console combined). They also appeared to engage in an unnecessary class warfare campaign within their own XBox 360 install base. That may not have been intentional. But the perception was definitely there. And I believe it may have permanently damaged MS with many consumers. I respect MS' vision for the XB1 just like you. I just think they got completely off rail by asking it to do way too much...way too soon.

A great post by you.
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post #16 of 42 Old 06-22-2013, 11:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darenwh View Post

Sounds like Microsoft was just following in Apples path. No media and no way to sell an app after you have no use for it. And don't cry because of piracy. That's why games were so expensive. Since making piracy nearly impossible there still are no software companies who have reduced prices. What are the chances MS will price the digital version of Halo for under $30.00?

The answer is "0" chance. Same thing with Sony and the PS4 titles. And that is the problem...as many have articulated. If you are going to set up a DD only retail store like XBL, PSN, Steam, Amazon etc., and not pass massive savings on through to consumers...there is no incentive whatsoever for them to use your store. Especially if the convenience benefits are exceeded by increasing bandwitdth caps from your ISP provoders. I think BD2003 and a few others said this on the other XBox One thread...That if MS had implemented their restrictive strategy with a major reengineering of retail price structure in AAA games ($30-$40),,,they would not have met with so much resistance.
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post #17 of 42 Old 06-22-2013, 12:29 PM
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Lots of resistance out there against limiting discs. MS probably would have caught less flack from customers if they just went download only and fought the retailers instead. I know Sony's stance helped push this but I wonder if the EU court ruling had anything to do with it:
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The doctrine of first sale is simple: when you sell your product to a user, you exhaust your right of distribution for that particular copy with the right transferring to the buyer. As CURIA explains in its ruling: 'A rightholder who has marketed a copy in the territory of a Member State of the EU thus loses the right to rely on his monopoly of exploitation in order to oppose the resale of that copy.'

Oracle, for its part, had argued that the doctrine of first sale does not apply to digitally distributed software as there is no physical product - just an agreement between the buyer and seller for the former to use the latter's product.

CURIA's response? Balderdash. 'The principle of exhaustion of the distribution right applies not only where the copyright holder markets copies of his software on a material medium (CD-ROM or DVD) but also where he distributes them by means of downloads from his website. Where the copyright holder makes available to his customer a copy – tangible or intangible – and at the same time concludes, in return form payment of a fee, a licence agreement granting the customer the right to use that copy for an unlimited period, that rightholder sells the copy to the customer and thus exhausts his exclusive distribution right. Such a transaction involves a transfer of the right of ownership of the copy.

'Therefore, even if the licence agreement prohibits a further transfer, the rightholder can no longer oppose the resale of that copy.'

This kind of thing should be going on in the USA as well, but I won't hold my breath. I can only assume Sony and MS both have a system in place when this becomes law of the land in the EU.

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post #18 of 42 Old 06-22-2013, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Crash44 View Post

Lots of resistance out there against limiting discs. MS probably would have caught less flack from customers if they just went download only and fought the retailers instead. I know Sony's stance helped push this but I wonder if the EU court ruling had anything to do with it:.

Steam and EA violates this EU ruling then which would be a win for consumers but that was a year ago and I do not see an overall policy change. The client software is really solely to prevent reselling.
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post #19 of 42 Old 06-22-2013, 02:55 PM
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Steam and EA violates this EU ruling then which would be a win for consumers but that was a year ago and I do not see an overall policy change. The client software is really solely to prevent reselling.

if i'm reading it correctly, it sounds like they are allowed to restrict reselling, but it's not illegal.

in other words, they could 'lock' the copy of the game to one device, but they couldn't stop you from selling that device with game included.

sadly, these corporations always have better lawyers and more influence. as consumers we really need to fight back with our purchase power. don't like what MS is doing, don't buy their product. don't feel 'forced' into buying something, and try not to choose the lesser of two evils. don't choose any evils and make them produce a good product before you buy it.

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post #20 of 42 Old 06-22-2013, 04:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post

if i'm reading it correctly, it sounds like they are allowed to restrict reselling, but it's not illegal.

in other words, they could 'lock' the copy of the game to one device, but they couldn't stop you from selling that device with game included.

Were are you getting that from as far as EU allowing that gigantic loophole? There's nothing preventing every software seller from claiming that.
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post #21 of 42 Old 06-22-2013, 11:11 PM
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XB1 is a non-starter. This is going to fail miserably. Sony (Who isn't that great to begin with) is eating these guys for lunch on several fronts. This is the box that MS has been wanting to make since the original Xbox came out over a decade ago. The real money isn't in gaming, it's in being the source for all things on demand; movies, music, games, & whatnot. However what MS is trying to do is pull a Green Day switcheroo. They are riding on the backs of gamers to get into this market which is heavily dominated by Dish, Direct TV and third party Netflix devices. Hell even TV are getting into the apps and download market. MS isn't a game console. It's just pretending to be so they can dominate your living room. Sorry MS but this time around you aren't pleasing the gamers and I think some backlash is in order. "EpicFAIL".
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post #22 of 42 Old 06-23-2013, 05:27 AM
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XB1 is a non-starter. This is going to fail miserably. Sony (Who isn't that great to begin with) is eating these guys for lunch on several fronts.

Gee the ps3 was supposed to eat these guys for lunch too, strange how that never happened. Maybe next year sony will finally make a profit, ms has no worries on that front.
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post #23 of 42 Old 06-23-2013, 09:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PcGeek626 View Post

+ 1 
people are still moaning about the price of xbox one, enough!. It's almost the same price as building a "midrange pc" LOL. 

But not sure yet if i should buy xbox one because of DRM announcement. 

Except a PC isn't locked down like the Xbox is. I can play any video/audio format on my PC. Until these consoles free up the ability to truly use them as media centers they will only ever be good for gaming and nothing more.
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post #24 of 42 Old 06-24-2013, 12:11 AM
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Thank goodness these restrictions were removed. I've been with Xbox since day one with the Xbox and now the Xbox 360. As much as I love the 360 I was going to migrate to the PS4 if these restrictions weren't removed. But now I'm wanting an Xbox One. I still think the Xbox One should be the same price as the PS4.

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post #25 of 42 Old 06-24-2013, 12:34 AM
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Originally Posted by properbostonian View Post

"The magnitude of the negative response toward these changes can not be overstated—the vast majority of the gaming community was in total revolt." Agreed. And I was one of them. Although, that didn't stop me from pre-ordering the Xbox 1. Halo, Kinect, and it's media functionality are all appealing to me.

It was smart move by MS. For now, Xbox One is currently on top of the best seller list at amazon.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_sc_0_4?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=xbox%20one&sprefix=xbx+%2Caps%2C368

Don't know how you got that list but Sony has 3 PS4's in the top 20. One of which is still unavailable-

http://www.amazon.com/best-sellers-video-games/zgbs/videogames/ref=sv_vg_11

And it's number 2 overall for the year-

http://www.amazon.com/gp/bestsellers/2013/videogames/ref=zg_bs_tab_t_bsar

Being cheaper is still an advantage.

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post #26 of 42 Old 06-24-2013, 05:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by properbostonian View Post

"The magnitude of the negative response toward these changes can not be overstated—the vast majority of the gaming community was in total revolt." Agreed. And I was one of them. Although, that didn't stop me from pre-ordering the Xbox 1. Halo, Kinect, and it's media functionality are all appealing to me.

It was smart move by MS. For now, Xbox One is currently on top of the best seller list at amazon.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_sc_0_4?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=xbox%20one&sprefix=xbx+%2Caps%2C368

Accurate, but not the whole picture and understandably so.

The single Xbox One SKU when it moved up the list was alongside four Playstation 4 bundles, which 3 of the PS4s were in the top 10 along with the Xbox One.

So there are more pre-orders for Playstation 4. I wish Amazon had a published graph of the pre-order numbers for both consoles along a date. I would really love to see the rise and fall of numbers between announcements.
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post #27 of 42 Old 06-24-2013, 06:51 AM
 
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Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post

I've been on the xbox camp for years. I do currently own both a 360 and ps3, but mainly just use the ps3 for blurays as I simply cannot use the regular ps3 controllers and have not been able to find a 360 clone that works well.

Here you go: http://www.cronusdevice.com/

There's a post in the XBox section from someone who grabbed one and loves it. Keep an eye on them going forward as well, as I'm sure they'll be making the leap to next gen controllers.

Shame about this issue with Twisted Metal; so close to being a AAA release, yet needed a little more time baking IMO. I would suggest heading over to the PS3 section, as Sony has pumped out a ton of really, really great exclusive games this Gen. And most of them can be had very cheap in barging bins now. You’re definitely missing out not giving a few a try.
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post #28 of 42 Old 06-24-2013, 02:52 PM
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Gee the ps3 was supposed to eat these guys for lunch too, strange how that never happened. Maybe next year sony will finally make a profit, ms has no worries on that front.

I certainly never said that. Back then they were better matched to one another with I believe the edge going to MS on cost. Now the gap is seriously widened, XB1 does less, costs more and has lower specs on paper. MS has not done a good job at all of showing what the console can do that the competition cannot. It IS however in a position of having to defend it's weaknesses. Not a good position to be in at all, especially when you are asking for $100 more for it to do the same with more restrictions.
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post #29 of 42 Old 06-24-2013, 02:55 PM
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Don't know how you got that list but Sony has 3 PS4's in the top 20. One of which is still unavailable-

http://www.amazon.com/best-sellers-video-games/zgbs/videogames/ref=sv_vg_11

And it's number 2 overall for the year-

http://www.amazon.com/gp/bestsellers/2013/videogames/ref=zg_bs_tab_t_bsar

Being cheaper is still an advantage.

Cheaper and far superior hardware is quite an advantage for the PS4.

Looking at this gen, the 360 launched a year early and has been less expensive the entire time (more expensive if you want to play online). Though the PS3 is more powerful. Both systems neck and neck in sells even with MS having 1 year head start. So quite a different scenario come this winter.
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post #30 of 42 Old 06-24-2013, 04:06 PM
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Were are you getting that from as far as EU allowing that gigantic loophole? There's nothing preventing every software seller from claiming that.

the last line. again i'm not a lawyer, so I don't know if i'm reading it correctly
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'Therefore, even if the licence agreement prohibits a further transfer, the rightholder can no longer oppose the resale of that copy.'

to me that says the distributor is allowed to restrict the resale of a product, but there's no law they can base that on. if the consumer finds a way to resell it, then they can resell it. it's not illegal for MS to lock games to specific consoles, and it's not illegal for users to sell the games they bought. it's something the two party have to agree to on their own. if MS wants to restrict the resale of games, they can, as long as they aren't counting on law enforcement to make that happen.

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