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post #1 of 35 Old 07-02-2013, 06:04 PM - Thread Starter
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This past week, New York City was the place to be for the tech press and electronics-industry insiders. The same folks who run the goliath Consumer Electronics Show in Vegas—the Consumer Electronics Association—have put on a mid-year event in Manhattan for the last seven years. A much more intimate and informal gathering, CE Week evolved from an event aimed at Wall Street to an event aimed at members of the electronics industry in general.

There were plenty of innovative products on the show floor, as well as opportunities to look at the latest and greatest offerings from major electronics manufacturers in controlled, simulated home-theater environments.

In addition to the show floor and all the exhibits, CE Week featured a conference on Ultra HD. Numerous topics came up during the day-long conference, with one overarching theme: Ultra HD is not just about resolution. It's also about bit depth, color space, frame rate, dynamic range and broadcast standards. It is about cooperation between electronics manufacturers, government agencies, and standards organizations. Upgrading the nation's information and entertainment infrastructure is no simple task.

The conference kicked off with an intro by Geoff Tully, the conference chair, who got the ball rolling and then introduced the first speaker: Shawn DuBravac, the CFA, Chief Economist, and Senior Director of Research for the CEA. DuBravac touched on the state of the market, with CES 2013 as the starting point. While there is an identifiable trend toward larger, higher-resolution screens, currently a mere 11% of flat-panel televisions are 50 inches or larger. While there is an expectation that the market share of large flat panels will increase to approximately 34% by 2016, forecasts also indicate that Ultra HD will only command 6% of the market by then. Even among large screens, Ultra HD will remain a niche product for the next few years. However, because of the much higher retail prices and profit margins of premium televisions, the relatively small size of the market is not as important as understanding how to serve that market.


Geoff Tully kicks off the Ultra HD conference.

I witnessed a fascinating discussion on the broad applications for the extra quantity and quality of the pixels provided by UHD TV. Multiview screens came up more than once, as did passive, Full-HD 3D playback. The presentation touched on issues like the need for an ecosystem of UHD players and streaming content, to give people something to watch on their new UHD televisions. One of the frequently touted applications for large-format UHD screens was displaying personal photographs, taken with high-resolution digital cameras. I agree, and I anticipate the next generation of DSLRs will feature a native UHD video mode.

Next up at the conference was Paul Gagnon, Director of Global TV Research at DisplaySearch, a market-research firm. What followed was a rather precise breakdown of the market for TVs, both in the USA and globally. The gist of the presentation was that the USA lags behind China in terms of UHD TV adoption. One notable aspect of this presentation was the use of the term "4K" instead of UHD. According to Gagnon, the supply-side of the TV industry has settled on the term, so 4K is what he used to refer to UHD throughout the presentation. Ultimately, the most interesting insight is that the absolute peak of worldwide 1080p LCD TV sales is probably occurring right now, during Q2 and Q3 of 2013—from this point onward, any gains in sales of UHD/4K sets is taking sales away from HD LCD.

Next up was Jack Wetherill from consulting firm FutureSource, who discussed the ecosystem that has to be in place in order for UHD to succeed. That presentation discussed how content is key to UHD's success, and how fans of the new format need to temper expectations for rapid, ubiquitous adoption. The fact is that HD/1080p will dominate the overall display market for some time to come.

After those three individual presentations, it was time for a panel discussion, moderated by Scott Wilkinson, AVS Director of Content. "Displays: The Face of Ultra HD in the Home" featured Jim Sandusky, VP Strategic Product Marketing from Sharp; Scott Ramirez, VP of Product Marketing and Development at Toshiba; Dan Schinasi, Senior Marketing Manager/TV Product Planning at Samsung; and Tim Alessi, Director of New Product Development at LG Electronics.


Scott Wilkinson moderates a in-depth discussion about UHD displays in the home.

"Seeing is believing." Wilkinson opened the panel with a discussion of the benefits of Ultra HD beyond the pixel count. The short answer: It's all about picture quality, which more than just raw pixel count. The quality of each pixel is also a factor in determining total image quality, namely the video bit depth and frame rate. When a reference to UHD as being like "looking through a window" came up, Wilkinson mentioned that companies made the same claim for 1080p HD video, and he asked if UHD was like cleaning the window with a squeegee. Overall, the manufacturers seemed confident that consumers would react positively to the increase in picture quality that UHD provides, that it would drive future sales of ever-larger screens.

Next, Wilkinson broached the topic of standards, like bit depth, color gamut, and connectivity issues. Of course, these issues have yet to be finalized, so the manufacturers discussed the importance of high-quality upscaling. There was a strong focus on how important it is for the latest UHD TVs to deliver 1080p content at the highest possible quality level—beyond the capabilities of existing sets.

When the discussion came to connectivity and future standards, Samsung was in the enviable position of touting its One Connect solution—an upgradeable external box that contains all the inputs and video processing for its UHD televisions. There is considerable concern regarding first-generation UHD TV compatibility with standards that are not yet finalized, such as HDMI 2.0, or implemented, such as Rec. 2020 color—and which are needed to fully realize the potential of UHD by allowing the use of greater bit-depths and higher frame rates than current HDMI 1.4a and Rec. 709 HD color standards support.

A lot of the discussion centered on incremental improvement in video quality versus the "wow" factor. How big a leap in the viewing experience is 4K/UHD versus 1080p? Wilkinson again pressed the panel on what tangible benefits consumers could expect from a move to 2160p, and the discussion circled back to quality upscaling of 1080p content in these early days of UHD adoption.

Although the panel saw upscaling as crucial in the early days of UHD, the need for native UHD content to keep consumers engaged and enthused is clear. And yet, another advantage of UHD is the capability to view full-resolution 1080p HD 3D with passive glasses—although 3D is no longer the headline feature it was hoped to be, the advantages of UHD for 3D viewing were acknowledged by the manufacturers. However, the manufacturers repeatedly cited 2D picture quality—especially upscaled 1080p 2D content—as the primary driver of UHD TV sales. It will be interesting to see if this attitude persists when Avatar 2 hits theaters.

After the conclusion of a Q&A session with the "Displays: The Face of Ultra HD in the Home" panel, conference chair Geoff Tully moderated a discussion titled "Understanding Ultra HD: Not just Bigger; It's Better," featuring Joe Kane, CEO of Joe Kane Productions; Pete Lude, Digital Imaging Consultant; and Larry Thorpe, Senior Fellow – Imaging Technologies and Communications at Canon.

Joe Kane is a man who spends considerable time and effort pushing the industry forward, and his comments highlighted a major theme of the day—that UHD is about much more than raw pixel count. He seized the moment to espouse the need for higher bitrates, bit depths, and frame rates, a larger color gamut, high dynamic-range capabilities, and standards to make sure it all works. His message: If there is an opportunity to establish new standards and move forward, then everything should be on the table—especially a move to abandon legacy fractional frame rates and adopt high bit depths. Kane even discussed the potential for 16-bit high dynamic range (HDR) video in Ultra HD. That is something I would personally love to see.


Joe Kane pleads his case for a new UHD TV system.

Next up at the conference was a discussion of Technicolor's involvement in UHD, namely a new certification process for content upscalers. It was clear by this point that the major-brand TV makers are interested in differentiating their premium products from lower-priced competitors. Technicolor provides a means to do that by certifying the performance characteristics of a manufacturer's upscaling solution, thus guaranteeing it meets a minimum performance standard—capable of delivering the exceptional image quality that UHD TV makers are touting.

After the Technicolor presentation, Scott Wilkinson took the stage once again to discuss SMPTE standards with Bill Miller—Principal, Miltag Media Technology and a SMPTE Fellow. The discussion centered on what it takes to deliver UHD into the home, and the current ecosystem for UHD content delivery. The main message: UHD TV is "becoming real," and the focus is on the future. Miller reiterated the need for higher frame rates, a wider color gamut, and a system that possesses adequate bandwidth for delivering that content—including the use of "mezzanine compression" to enable UHD TV in the existing production infrastructure. The discussion was highly technical, but informative.

The last panel discussion of the day was moderated by Geoffrey Tully. The title: "Okay – I got my Ultra HD TV; What Else am I Going to Have to Buy?" The panelists included Rey Roque, Vice President, Marketing, Westinghouse Digital; Jason Clement, Dir. and GM of Engineering, Sony Electronics; and Kirk Barker, Senior Vice President of Development and Strategy, Technicolor. Ultimately, there is no right answer that question. A topic that did come up was rapid obsolescence. The real question in the back of many people's minds is, "Now that I bought an Ultra HD TV, will I have to buy another one in the near future because my first-generation model will be rendered obsolete by new standards?"

Robert Zohn of Value Electronics asked the panel a question along those lines, seeking assurance for his customers that there is an upgrade path for first-generation UHD TVs. Jason Clement offered an anecdotal tale about the Sony UHD TV he recently purchased. Clement said he discussed the subject with Sony engineers, and he felt confident that his new television would not be obsolete five years from now. Unfortunately, he offered no details about what that upgrade path would be. To my knowledge, at present, only Samsung offers a viable solution that promises compatibility with future standards.

The ultra HD conference ended with a presentation by Jamie Rhind, Associate Publisher of Sales and Marketing for Robb Report. Probably the most informative piece of data was that millionaires represent half of the entire market for luxury goods, with the "rising middle class" and "aspirational masses" making up the other half. However, the middle class and the aspirational masses add up to 400 million people, while the millionaire market consists of a mere 10 million people. For the millionaire market, the costs involved with adopting UHD TV are not the primary barrier to adoption—the primary barrier is a lack of content.

Which brings us back to the chicken-and-egg problem, the case for upscaling and certification, and new standards—all issues I've seen discussed on AVS Forum by concerned members. If there is anything I got out of the CE Week conference, it's that all these issues are on the radar of all the major television manufacturers and the standards organizations that work with them to implement a system that works for consumers. Organizing and coordinating the rollout of a new system for delivering video content is a tremendously complex task, and it was rather enlightening to gain such an inside perspective into all of the issues involved.

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post #2 of 35 Old 07-02-2013, 07:41 PM
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I hope this time around that they adequately temper their expectations for consumer adoption. With 3D it was as if the entire industry was expecting a revolution on par with HDTV, and when that failed to materialize, the press practically tripped over themselves to overstate how much of a disaster it was. That constantly beating drum of negativity in the press probably set 3D adoption back by a few years. Now it's almost as if 3D is radioactive...it's really disappointing to me.

While I don't think UHD is nearly as polarizing as 3D (pun oh so very intended), and I can hardly fault them for marketing their latest tech as the best thing since sliced bread....I'm worried we're heading down the same path with UHD.

On a slightly more technical note...was there any word of a codec that could bridge the gap from HD to UHD, while maintaining backwards compatibility with blu-ray? Something akin to DTS-HD that can gracefully scale back down to standard DTS. I'm imagining something along the lines of spectral band replication in HE-AAC. The "core" would be an h.264 1080p video that any blu-ray player can read, but with a secondary layer of the high frequency information sprinkled on top. It wouldn't be as good as "true UHD"...but it might be good enough, as I simply don't see any way UHD can support a mass market physical media on its own. With something like that, they could probably squeeze a reasonably good looking UHD movie on a 50GB bluray, if they kept the special features on the same disc to a minimum.

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post #3 of 35 Old 07-02-2013, 09:15 PM
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....and a good pun it is too bd2003 smile.gif
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post #4 of 35 Old 07-02-2013, 09:44 PM
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considering I just finished replacing my last tv with 1080p about a month ago, i'm going to guess it'll be at least 5, if not 10 years before I get a UHD display.

in fact, as it sits right now, the only legal way for me to get 1080p content is buying BD's. I'm barely able to get 1080i 'hd' cable. heck, i'm lucky if it's even 16:9 format and not 4:3:rolleyes:

I will NOT adopt UHD until the content is easy to get, or it's a teeny premium over comparable 1080p displays, or it's a projector. I will never sit close enough to a tv to see the improvement in resolution.

overall it just feels like an 'improvement' I never asked for, while they ignore the problems we do ask to be fixed. better blacks, better contrast, better motion, less input lag... etc.
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post #5 of 35 Old 07-02-2013, 10:32 PM
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Great write up Mark, Thanks!
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post

Numerous topics came up during the day-long conference, with one overarching theme: Ultra HD is not just about resolution. It's also about bit depth, color space, frame rate, dynamic range and broadcast standards.

This right here makes me think it will be have a chance and be a worthy upgrade on par w/ going to HD and Blu Ray years ago.

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Originally Posted by imagic View Post

After those three individual presentations, it was time for a panel discussion, moderated by Scott Wilkinson, AVS Director of Content. "Displays: The Face of Ultra HD in the Home" featured Jim Sandusky, VP Strategic Product Marketing from Sharp; Scott Ramirez, VP of Product Marketing and Development at Toshiba; Dan Schinasi, Senior Marketing Manager/TV Product Planning at Samsung; and Tim Alessi, Director of New Product Development at LG Electronics.

With Sony leading the charge in 4K, where were they?

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Originally Posted by imagic View Post

A lot of the discussion centered on incremental improvement in video quality versus the "wow" factor. How big a leap in the viewing experience is 4K/UHD versus 1080p? Wilkinson again pressed the panel on what tangible benefits consumers could expect from a move to 2160p, and the discussion circled back to quality upscaling of 1080p content in these early days of UHD adoption.

Do they keep going back to this because it's cheaper then advancing the technology for other image improvements?

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Originally Posted by imagic View Post

Next up at the conference was a discussion of Technicolor's involvement in UHD, namely a new certification process for content upscalers. It was clear by this point that the major-brand TV makers are interested in differentiating their premium products from lower-priced competitors. Technicolor provides a means to do that by certifying the performance characteristics of a manufacturer's upscaling solution, thus guaranteeing it meets a minimum performance standard—capable of delivering the exceptional image quality that UHD TV makers are touting.

Is THX going to jump in w/ their own certification?
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post #6 of 35 Old 07-02-2013, 10:59 PM
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Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post

considering I just finished replacing my last tv with 1080p about a month ago, i'm going to guess it'll be at least 5, if not 10 years before I get a UHD display.

in fact, as it sits right now, the only legal way for me to get 1080p content is buying BD's. I'm barely able to get 1080i 'hd' cable. heck, i'm lucky if it's even 16:9 format and not 4:3:rolleyes:

I will NOT adopt UHD until the content is easy to get, or it's a teeny premium over comparable 1080p displays, or it's a projector. I will never sit close enough to a tv to see the improvement in resolution.

overall it just feels like an 'improvement' I never asked for, while they ignore the problems we do ask to be fixed. better blacks, better contrast, better motion, less input lag... etc.


Well said................however at least give the article credit for being realistic about the content delivery issues.

A lot of people try to gloss over content like it will just automatically come online.

Broadcast tv spent a fortune to get us HD, they aren't going to do it all over again.

Internet infractructure has had decades to come online and look what we got.

There are no good answers for this native 4k content...........it could very well go the way of 3d....an afterthought.
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post #7 of 35 Old 07-03-2013, 06:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post

considering I just finished replacing my last tv with 1080p about a month ago, i'm going to guess it'll be at least 5, if not 10 years before I get a UHD display.

in fact, as it sits right now, the only legal way for me to get 1080p content is buying BD's. I'm barely able to get 1080i 'hd' cable. heck, i'm lucky if it's even 16:9 format and not 4:3:rolleyes:

I will NOT adopt UHD until the content is easy to get, or it's a teeny premium over comparable 1080p displays, or it's a projector. I will never sit close enough to a tv to see the improvement in resolution.

overall it just feels like an 'improvement' I never asked for, while they ignore the problems we do ask to be fixed. better blacks, better contrast, better motion, less input lag... etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetmeck View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post

considering I just finished replacing my last tv with 1080p about a month ago, i'm going to guess it'll be at least 5, if not 10 years before I get a UHD display.

in fact, as it sits right now, the only legal way for me to get 1080p content is buying BD's. I'm barely able to get 1080i 'hd' cable. heck, i'm lucky if it's even 16:9 format and not 4:3:rolleyes:

I will NOT adopt UHD until the content is easy to get, or it's a teeny premium over comparable 1080p displays, or it's a projector. I will never sit close enough to a tv to see the improvement in resolution.

overall it just feels like an 'improvement' I never asked for, while they ignore the problems we do ask to be fixed. better blacks, better contrast, better motion, less input lag... etc.


Damn I couldn't have said it better!


Well said................however at least give the article credit for being realistic about the content delivery issues.

A lot of people try to gloss over content like it will just automatically come online.

Broadcast tv spent a fortune to get us HD, they aren't going to do it all over again.

Internet infractructure has had decades to come online and look what we got.

There are no good answers for this native 4k content...........it could very well go the way of 3d....an afterthought.


"It could very well go the way of 3d....an after thought". Well said and I bet they are hopeing it don't because they have a a lot of money riding on this 4K thing. If it goes bust that's gonna hurt big time with a lot of money lost. Sony for one is really trying to cram 4K down consumers throats and I can understand why since their HDTV business aint doing very well. They hope 4K can change things and I have a hunch it wont. If it fails then that may be the end for Sony's HDTV business which would be sad in a way but they would only have themselves to blame. Its called "putting the cart before the horse" or "putting to many eggs in one basket" or lastly "too much way too soon". A lot of consumers just don't have that kind of money to spend on a 4K tv and lets face it the Cable industry is not gonna make another change just support 4K, heck they just are starting to switch over to 720p and 1080i in a lot of areas around the U.S. 4K like 3D is the supposedly next big thing and even though I like 3D it was a failure bottom line because the consumer didn't buy into it and I have a feeling 4K will be the same way. I don't hate 4K and I am all for new Technology and yes I could afford to buy one but I wont due to the fact that I personally see no difference between 4K and 1080p. Put me in front of a projection system? Maybe but I have no use for those so I am out when it comes to this new 4K novelty. Give me a good 1080p flat screen like the one I currently own and I am good thank you very much.
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post #8 of 35 Old 07-03-2013, 07:06 AM - Thread Starter
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"It could very well go the way of 3d....an after thought". Well said and I bet they are hopeing it don't because they have a a lot of money riding on this 4K thing. If it goes bust that's gonna hurt big time with a lot of money lost. Sony for one is really trying to cram 4K down consumers throats and I can understand why since their HDTV business aint doing very well. They hope 4K can change things and I have a hunch it wont. If it fails then that may be the end for Sony's HDTV business which would be sad in a way but they would only have themselves to blame. Its called "putting the cart before the horse" or "putting to many eggs in one basket" or lastly "too much way too soon". A lot of consumers just don't have that kind of money to spend on a 4K tv and lets face it the Cable industry is not gonna make another change just support 4K, heck they just are starting to switch over to 720p and 1080i in a lot of areas around the U.S. 4K like 3D is the supposedly next big thing and even though I like 3D it was a failure bottom line because the consumer didn't buy into it and I have a feeling 4K will be the same way. I don't hate 4K and I am all for new Technology and yes I could afford to buy one but I wont due to the fact that I personally see no difference between 4K and 1080p. Put me in front of a projection system? Maybe but I have no use for those so I am out when it comes to this new 4K novelty. Give me a good 1080p flat screen like the one I currently own and I am good thank you very much.

Many of the standards that are being promoted would benefit 1080p viewing as well, including increased color gamut, dynamic range and frame rates. It is true that 1080p is a more than adequate resolution for many applications, but it is hardly as good as it could be. Adoption of UHD standards will be a boon for fans of 1080p panels, and it's a good bet that there will be some exceptional 1080p TVs introduced over the next couple of years—after all, plasma quality is back up to Kuro levels, and OLED is finally here.

But, ultimately 4K is going to become the adopted standard...worldwide. It's a fact that the USA is lagging the rest of the world in adoption of 4K but inevitably the popularity of the format in Korea, Japan and China will mean that cheap 4K TVs will be abundant soon. Since 1080p still works on 4K panels, eventually 1080p televisions will occupy the same space that 720p units currently do.
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post #9 of 35 Old 07-03-2013, 07:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biliam1982 
With Sony leading the charge in 4K, where were they?

What's there to watch: delivering Ultra HD to the home
Speakers-
Bill Miller, principal, Miltag Media Technology / SMPTE
Rob Wilcox, director, Large Sensor Technology, Sony Electronics Professional Solutions

OK - I got my Ultra HDTV; What else am i going to have to buy?
Speakers-
Rey Roque, Vice President, Marketing, Westinghouse Digital
Jason Clement, Director & GM - Engineering, Sony Electronics
Kirk Barker, Senior Vice President, Development and Strategy, Technicolor


http://www.ceweekny.com/conference/ultra-hd-conference/
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post #10 of 35 Old 07-03-2013, 08:35 AM
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Well said................however at least give the article credit for being realistic about the content delivery issues.

A lot of people try to gloss over content like it will just automatically come online.

Broadcast tv spent a fortune to get us HD, they aren't going to do it all over again.

Internet infractructure has had decades to come online and look what we got.

There are no good answers for this native 4k content...........it could very well go the way of 3d....an afterthought.

yes, it's good to hear that they are aware content will be the single most important thing to get ppl to adopt. and that they are putting a lot of effort into quality upscaling.

it's unfortunate that they seem to be side-stepping that a bit by claiming all these 'extra' improvements beyond the pixel count. as if ppl with current 1080p sources would see any of those anyway...

I mean, if the wider color gamut is a huge improvement(I doubt it will be), I still need to get content that uses that color gamut. a higher native FPS could be interesting though. I HATE the look of frame interpolation, but i'm sure a native increase in FPS would provide smoother images without the artificial look. I mean how cool would it be to switch to a movie channel, and see 24fps, then flip to the football game and have it going at 60fps automatically because that's what the SOURCE is broadcast in, not what you're tv is interpolating.

I just think this is going to be a much slower transition than it has been and CONTINUES to be for HD. I mean 90% of the cable channels I get are STILL 4:3 480p.

this would be an excellent opportunity for streaming service to put the nail in the cable/satellite coffin. although I can't think of any reason why I need to watch the simpson's in 4k... biggrin.gif


ultimately, I don't want to say i'm against UHD, I hope it becomes popular and thus makes it economical sooner, rather than later. i'm just not going to be an early adopter this time around. the switch to HD has been more than frustrating and continues to be so. and I think there's going to be far less performance incentive for the switch this time around

it will be interesting to see how a global standard works out. I have to imagine that can only be good for everybody, but I wonder how the power than be will control 'their property' being released in different regions at different times for different prices. I've seen BD's on amazon.uk for significantly less than amazon.com or amazon.ca for example. I'm sure they'll continue the region code thing, but without any ntsc vs pal I have to imagine there will be some simple hacks to avoid this or many more region free players.
on the plus side, we can let the billion ppl in china be the early adopters and manufacturers won't have to redevelop anything for a different format. on the negative side, it's unlikely a Chinese made UHD display will look as good as the new panny plasmas or Samsung f8500. quality over quantity for sure. so hopefully the A-brand companies can get some sales in to this early adopting countries. it'd be a real shame if the push for UHD let to the death of any more high end tv lines. seems like the precedent is once you're the best, go out of business... frown.gif

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post #11 of 35 Old 07-03-2013, 08:40 AM
 
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4k won't go the way of 3D. It's such a clear upgrade, go into a store and look at a 4k tv, it's night and day compared to the 1080p set up near it. When 3D came out, I went into the store and was like... oh this is not very nice to look at. 3D is just not enjoyable to look at for many people, but 4k is better for everyone unless your 40 feet away from the tv.

There has to be content though. TV still isn't even 1080p.

Nearly every single person I know did not like 3D at release and all still don't like it now. I haven't talked to anyone that didn't like the look of 4k, they obviously don't like the price right now though.
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post #12 of 35 Old 07-03-2013, 08:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post

ultimately, I don't want to say i'm against UHD, I hope it becomes popular and thus makes it economical sooner, rather than later. i'm just not going to be an early adopter this time around. the switch to HD has been more than frustrating and continues to be so. and I think there's going to be far less performance incentive for the switch this time around

That's why I found the Robb Report data so intriguing. Millionaires make up 2% of the market for 4K/UHD televisions—by population—but they represent 50% of the market, in terms of spending. So sit back, and let the rich pay for early adoption. As noted, China has an appetite for UHD that will make inexpnsive UHD TVs nearly ubiquitous, soon enough. As soon as you see one in Wal-mart you know UHD has made it. Wal-mart pretty much ignored 3D, but that won't be the case with UHD.

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post #13 of 35 Old 07-03-2013, 08:53 AM
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Yeah, one thing that UHD has going for it is that there's really no argument against it. No one is going to walk up to a UHD set and say "Hmmm...looks too clear. I don't like it."

Resolution isn't the highest on my list of problems to solve either, but I'll definitely take it alongside black level and motion resolution improvements. The way I see it, 1080p is like CD quality. Under normal circumstances, it's near or just beyond the limits of what we can perceive. Just like 96khz audio, I'd like the video medium to have some tolerance built in, to be far enough above perceptual limits that there's really no need for debate.
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post #14 of 35 Old 07-03-2013, 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post

That's why I found the Robb Report data so intriguing. Millionaires make up 2% of the market for 4K/UHD televisions—by population—but they represent 50% of the market, in terms of spending. So sit back, and let the rich pay for early adoption. As noted, China has an appetite for UHD that will make inexpnsive UHD TVs nearly ubiquitous, soon enough. As soon as you see one in Wal-mart you know UHD has made it. Wal-mart pretty much ignored 3D, but that won't be the case with UHD.

Yeah, I think the transition is going to be pretty rapid, despite the lack of content. A UHD TV is just a better TV, even if it's just upscaling 1080p. Unlike black level it's super easy for TV manufacturers to market - it's just the next step up from HD. HDTV's inability to broadcast higher than 1080i didn't slow 1080p down. Within 2 years they'll be as ubiquitous as 1080p is now.

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Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

Yeah, one thing that UHD has going for it is that there's really no argument against it. No one is going to walk up to a UHD set and say "Hmmm...looks too clear. I don't like it."

Resolution isn't the highest on my list of problems to solve either, but I'll definitely take it alongside black level and motion resolution improvements. The way I see it, 1080p is like CD quality. Under normal circumstances, it's near or just beyond the limits of what we can perceive. Just like 96khz audio, I'd like the video medium to have some tolerance built in, to be far enough above perceptual limits that there's really no need for debate.

Higher frame rate is a night and day difference for movies if movie companies start filming in higher fps more often (the hobbit did). 24 fps really limits action movies.
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post #16 of 35 Old 07-03-2013, 12:58 PM
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10 years from now uhd and 4k will be commonplace when megahd and 8k comes out...
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post #17 of 35 Old 07-03-2013, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by JWagstaff View Post

4k won't go the way of 3D. It's such a clear upgrade, go into a store and look at a 4k tv, it's night and day compared to the 1080p set up near it. When 3D came out, I went into the store and was like... oh this is not very nice to look at. 3D is just not enjoyable to look at for many people, but 4k is better for everyone unless your 40 feet away from the tv.

There has to be content though. TV still isn't even 1080p.

Nearly every single person I know did not like 3D at release and all still don't like it now. I haven't talked to anyone that didn't like the look of 4k, they obviously don't like the price right now though.

clear upgrade is a stretch. I've viewed the sony 55" 4k tv and I had to be stupid close to see an improvement based on pixel count alone. I don't think anything else could really be judged without 4k content being shown.

what i'm more concerned with though, is that display using edge-lit led backlights. what the heck? if you're going to make a reference quality tv and you're forced to use a lcd, at least keep the full array backlight.

i'd really like to see a 4k plasma, not sure if that'll ever happen, but for me no extra amount of pixels could ever make up for the issues we currently have with edge-lit led models.

again, I don't think there's any real problem or disadvantage to 4k specifically. it's that I don't feel there's a need for it at 'flat screen sizes' and if it comes with any other degradation in PQ(ie using lcd's) i'll save my money and get a better overall picture for my needs. when they manage to cram 4k resolution into a display that otherwise matches my needs, and doesn't cost twice as much, that's when i'll upgrade. i'm expecting that to be 5-10yrs down the road

while the idea of cheap Chinese UHD displays in just a couple of years seems like a great thing for consumers. it also worries me that quality displays with good pq costing much more is going to be a very tough sell. the way I see it, those that 'know' probably aren't going to be the majority of early adopters. and those that want bragging rights aren't going to see the advantage to spending 10k for a 65" full array, local dimming LED over a 3k 80" edge lit with no dimming.

the last thing we need is another manufacturer known for quality displays to go bankrupt/out of the market because they can't compete with ultra cheap crappy displays.

I just don't see these Chinese companies using this early success to come out with a reference changing display in a couple years. and i'm worried that if companies like sony, Panasonic, Samsung, lg, etc don't get some of this early business at the crazy prices they will have to charge, they won't have any money for R&D and won't be able to continue producing top quality displays.

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Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

Yeah, I think the transition is going to be pretty rapid, despite the lack of content. A UHD TV is just a better TV, even if it's just upscaling 1080p. Unlike black level it's super easy for TV manufacturers to market - it's just the next step up from HD. HDTV's inability to broadcast higher than 1080i didn't slow 1080p down. Within 2 years they'll be as ubiquitous as 1080p is now.
Gaining in resolution but losing in other PQ parameters doesn't excite me, which is why I imagine I'll have to wait until OLED enters the sphere before I find a suitable pgrade to the ZT60.
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Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post

clear upgrade is a stretch. I've viewed the sony 55" 4k tv and I had to be stupid close to see an improvement based on pixel count alone. I don't think anything else could really be judged without 4k content being shown.

what i'm more concerned with though, is that display using edge-lit led backlights. what the heck? if you're going to make a reference quality tv and you're forced to use a lcd, at least keep the full array backlight.

i'd really like to see a 4k plasma, not sure if that'll ever happen, but for me no extra amount of pixels could ever make up for the issues we currently have with edge-lit led models.

again, I don't think there's any real problem or disadvantage to 4k specifically. it's that I don't feel there's a need for it at 'flat screen sizes' and if it comes with any other degradation in PQ(ie using lcd's) i'll save my money and get a better overall picture for my needs. when they manage to cram 4k resolution into a display that otherwise matches my needs, and doesn't cost twice as much, that's when i'll upgrade. i'm expecting that to be 5-10yrs down the road

while the idea of cheap Chinese UHD displays in just a couple of years seems like a great thing for consumers. it also worries me that quality displays with good pq costing much more is going to be a very tough sell. the way I see it, those that 'know' probably aren't going to be the majority of early adopters. and those that want bragging rights aren't going to see the advantage to spending 10k for a 65" full array, local dimming LED over a 3k 80" edge lit with no dimming.

the last thing we need is another manufacturer known for quality displays to go bankrupt/out of the market because they can't compete with ultra cheap crappy displays.

I just don't see these Chinese companies using this early success to come out with a reference changing display in a couple years. and i'm worried that if companies like sony, Panasonic, Samsung, lg, etc don't get some of this early business at the crazy prices they will have to charge, they won't have any money for R&D and won't be able to continue producing top quality displays.

I haven't seen small ones like that sony so maybe it's different. The one I saw was 85 I think, and it had 4k content.
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post #20 of 35 Old 07-03-2013, 04:01 PM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post

Many of the standards that are being promoted would benefit 1080p viewing as well, including increased color gamut, dynamic range and frame rates. It is true that 1080p is a more than adequate resolution for many applications, but it is hardly as good as it could be. Adoption of UHD standards will be a boon for fans of 1080p panels, and it's a good bet that there will be some exceptional 1080p TVs introduced over the next couple of years—after all, plasma quality is back up to Kuro levels, and OLED is finally here.

But, ultimately 4K is going to become the adopted standard...worldwide. It's a fact that the USA is lagging the rest of the world in adoption of 4K but inevitably the popularity of the format in Korea, Japan and China will mean that cheap 4K TVs will be abundant soon. Since 1080p still works on 4K panels, eventually 1080p televisions will occupy the same space that 720p units currently do.



A few holes in that argument...............OLED has been around the corner for years.........where is that resonably priced set at ? lol

Any advancements to LCDs would be greatly appreciated and where there efforst should be, not 4k.

Ultimately it will be adopted ? Really tell me how the stock market is going to do while your at it ? lol

The content delivery will be the choke that may very well kill this stupid idea.

Real native 4k on demand is a pipe dream and I could quote multiple articles if you like.

Upconversion is a mess..............at best your asking the tv to DOUBLE the available info..........

A lot of broadcast isn't even 1080 yet so your asking the upconversion to be EVEN MORE THAN DOUBLE

the available info it receives.

With on demand content delivery out of reach, upconversion is all these sets have and

as stated in the last couple of lines this is a very bad idea.
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post #21 of 35 Old 07-03-2013, 04:01 PM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post

Many of the standards that are being promoted would benefit 1080p viewing as well, including increased color gamut, dynamic range and frame rates. It is true that 1080p is a more than adequate resolution for many applications, but it is hardly as good as it could be. Adoption of UHD standards will be a boon for fans of 1080p panels, and it's a good bet that there will be some exceptional 1080p TVs introduced over the next couple of years—after all, plasma quality is back up to Kuro levels, and OLED is finally here.

But, ultimately 4K is going to become the adopted standard...worldwide. It's a fact that the USA is lagging the rest of the world in adoption of 4K but inevitably the popularity of the format in Korea, Japan and China will mean that cheap 4K TVs will be abundant soon. Since 1080p still works on 4K panels, eventually 1080p televisions will occupy the same space that 720p units currently do.



A few holes in that argument...............OLED has been around the corner for years.........where is that resonably priced set at ? lol

Any advancements to LCDs would be greatly appreciated and where there efforst should be, not 4k.

Ultimately it will be adopted ? Really tell me how the stock market is going to do while your at it ? lol

The content delivery will be the choke that may very well kill this stupid idea.

Real native 4k on demand is a pipe dream and I could quote multiple articles if you like.

Upconversion is a mess..............at best your asking the tv to DOUBLE the available info..........

A lot of broadcast isn't even 1080 yet so your asking the upconversion to be EVEN MORE THAN DOUBLE

the available info it receives.

With on demand content delivery out of reach, upconversion is all these sets have and

as stated in the last couple of lines this is a very bad idea.
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post #22 of 35 Old 07-03-2013, 04:06 PM
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Originally Posted by JWagstaff View Post

4k won't go the way of 3D. It's such a clear upgrade, go into a store and look at a 4k tv, it's night and day compared to the 1080p set up near it. When 3D came out, I went into the store and was like... oh this is not very nice to look at. 3D is just not enjoyable to look at for many people, but 4k is better for everyone unless your 40 feet away from the tv.

There has to be content though. TV still isn't even 1080p.

Nearly every single person I know did not like 3D at release and all still don't like it now. I haven't talked to anyone that didn't like the look of 4k, they obviously don't like the price right now though.


I have seen the 25k Sony side by side with a Sony 1080P with identical source.

Unless your nose was up against.....lol or a 3-4 feet there was no difference.

This tech is for 80 plus size screens and you have to sit very close to see a difference.

Clear upgrade............no way. Be real.
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post #23 of 35 Old 07-03-2013, 04:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetmeck View Post

A few holes in that argument...............OLED has been around the corner for years.........where is that resonably priced set at ? lol

Any advancements to LCDs would be greatly appreciated and where there efforst should be, not 4k.

Ultimately it will be adopted ? Really tell me how the stock market is going to do while your at it ? lol

The content delivery will be the choke that may very well kill this stupid idea.

Real native 4k on demand is a pipe dream and I could quote multiple articles if you like.

Upconversion is a mess..............at best your asking the tv to DOUBLE the available info..........

A lot of broadcast isn't even 1080 yet so your asking the upconversion to be EVEN MORE THAN DOUBLE

the available info it receives.

With on demand content delivery out of reach, upconversion is all these sets have and

as stated in the last couple of lines this is a very bad idea.

4K/UDH is all about LCD TVs at this point. If you want to buy a top-of-the-line LCD set, 4K is going to be a part of the package, going forward. As I—and the industry insiders—have noted repeatedly, UHD is about more than just pixel count.

It's fine to play the devil's advocate, but the fact is UHD adoption is happening, and this is the year OLED is rolling out as well. I'm guessing you have not attended any industry conferences lately—which is why I wrote this handy article, as a guide to what's coming.

As a rule, the stock market goes up in the long term, and technology advances.

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post #24 of 35 Old 07-03-2013, 04:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Jetmeck View Post

I have seen the 25k Sony side by side with a Sony 1080P with identical source.

Unless your nose was up against.....lol or a 3-4 feet there was no difference.

This tech is for 80 plus size screens and you have to sit very close to see a difference.

Clear upgrade............no way. Be real.

Suffice to say that the difference is quite apparent to many people that I have met and talked to. But not everybody. It's best not to make blanket assumptions, because people's eyesight varies, as does the distance at which individuals enjoy watching movies. That combination alone makes it likely that some folks will get nothing out of UHD, regardless of screen size, while others will be in eye-candy heaven even with a 55" panel.

If it's not a clear upgrade to you, skip it by all means. If you have a hard time making out 4K content from 3-4 feet away on an 84" screen then there's some other issue—the detail is there to be seen by those who can. I can easily see extra detail vs. 1080p from over ten feet away, on a screen that size.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetmeck View Post

I have seen the 25k Sony side by side with a Sony 1080P with identical source.

Unless your nose was up against.....lol or a 3-4 feet there was no difference.

This tech is for 80 plus size screens and you have to sit very close to see a difference.

Clear upgrade............no way. Be real.

Of course there' s not much difference if it's an identical source.... the whole point of 4k is that you have a new 4k source....

The one I saw had the same content, one with 4k one with 1080p, I could tell the difference across the entire store, and it only got more apparent the closer you went. At normal viewing distance of 10 ft it was like comparing 360p to 1080p
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and this is the year OLED is rolling out as well. I'm guessing you have not attended any industry conferences lately.
All launch dates have come and gone, still no reviews or impressions of these released marvels.
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All launch dates have come and gone, still no reviews or impressions of these released marvels.

Given that Samsung just recently announced they too will be selling curved OLED TVs this year, I'd say the time has finally come.

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post #28 of 35 Old 07-03-2013, 05:19 PM
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What's there to watch: delivering Ultra HD to the home
Speakers-
Bill Miller, principal, Miltag Media Technology / SMPTE
Rob Wilcox, director, Large Sensor Technology, Sony Electronics Professional Solutions

OK - I got my Ultra HDTV; What else am i going to have to buy?
Speakers-
Rey Roque, Vice President, Marketing, Westinghouse Digital
Jason Clement, Director & GM - Engineering, Sony Electronics
Kirk Barker, Senior Vice President, Development and Strategy, Technicolor


http://www.ceweekny.com/conference/ultra-hd-conference/

I was specifically referring to the Session, Displays: The Face of Ultra HD in the Home
.

All the other major manufacturers were there but not Sony.
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post #29 of 35 Old 07-03-2013, 06:12 PM
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It is such an epic fail that HDMI 2.0 isn't finalized yet. What are they doing, anyway?
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post #30 of 35 Old 07-03-2013, 06:14 PM
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It is such an epic fail that HDMI 2.0 isn't finalized yet. What are they doing, anyway?

Yeah, I have no idea what is taking so long. No way I'm going to buy a UHD TV until HDMI can at least handle 4K/60fps.

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