Sony, Panasonic Agree to Develop 300GB Optical Disc - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 70 Old 07-29-2013, 05:45 AM - Thread Starter
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A joint press release from Sony and Panasonic announced their intention to co-develop and bring to market an optical disc with a minimum storage capacity of 300GB. The product is intended for professional data archiving, but I'm left wondering if this is also a potential Blu-ray successor.


Panasonic and Sony are partnering to create a new disc with a higher capacity than Blu-ray

With the coming transition to 4K/UHD resolutions, current optical disc capacity is too limited—50GB for standard Blu-ray and 100GB for Blu-ray XL—to hold an entire movie, using current compression methods.

I've participated in numerous discussions regarding physical media vs. online delivery. The practical realities of UHD video appear to demand at least one more iteration of the standard 4.75"-diameter optical disc, to insure that next-generation UHD/4K media is available in a reference-quality format. The current state of broadband access in rural areas—inconsistent, to say the least—precludes a universal, online-only distribution system. Do you agree, or is time for the consumer market to move on, and leave spinning discs behind?
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"Professional industries use high-capacity discs to store things like high-definition film and move large amounts of data. Sony and Panasonic hope that by developing a new standard for optical discs, industries will jump on board, ultimately benefitting consumers in the long run. The two companies hope to make their new 300GB disc available by the end of 2015." source: The Verge

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post #2 of 70 Old 07-29-2013, 06:33 AM
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We won't be using "current compression methods", surely? HEVC has progressed to the point that it's proven, although it still needs a good deal of work to optimize it. Therefore 100GB BD-XL would be ample. I could see why it might be wise to more clearly differentiate a UHD format from BD, though.

Considering how much longer it takes to burn a BDR as compared to a DVD, I shudder to think how long one of those 300 GB discs would take.tongue.gif (Besides, the article does state the main purpose is data storage.)

But hey, I welcome an optical format for 4k/UHD. Just so there is one.cool.gif
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post #3 of 70 Old 07-29-2013, 06:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by fritzi93 View Post

We won't be using "current compression methods", surely? HEVC has progressed to the point that it's proven, although it still needs a good deal of work to optimize it. Therefore 100GB BD-XL would be ample. I could see why it might be wise to more clearly differentiate a UHD format from BD, though.

Considering how much longer it takes to burn a BDR as compared to a DVD, I shudder to think how long one of those 300 GB discs would take.tongue.gif
Besides, the article states the main purpose is data storage.

But hey, I welcome an optical format for 4k/UHD. Just so there is one.cool.gif

With a release date of 2015 for a professional-use disc, an upgrade to Blu-ray seems a few years off—if it ever happens. But, even with more efficient compression, I suspect that discs over 100GB will be needed, once HDMI 2.0 is implemented and UHD really gets rolling. 100GB and HEVC only accommodates the added resolution at current frame rates and bit depth. The timing seems about right, second-generation UHD will likely have its own new, premium optical disc.

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post #4 of 70 Old 07-29-2013, 07:12 AM
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Okay, you're right about higher frame rates and bit depth, which I didn't consider. Improvements in those two areas would be wonderful. wink.gif
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post #5 of 70 Old 07-29-2013, 10:28 AM
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I'm too lazy to do the math, but with 300GB and HEVC....4K/60fps/3D in 10/12 bit color and Dolby Atmos sounds pretty realistic. Maybe even 8K...because why not?

It may end up being a niche like laserdisc....but I think enough people would be on board to support it as a premium boutique format.

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post #6 of 70 Old 07-29-2013, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

I'm too lazy to do the math, but with 300GB and HEVC....4K/60fps/3D in 10/12 bit color and Dolby Atmos sounds pretty realistic. Maybe even 8K...because why not?

It may end up being a niche like laserdisc....but I think enough people would be on board to support it as a premium boutique format.

Well, yeah..., but then factor in about 150gb for the new and improved DRM code, which will include all new and improved fingerprint, face and DNA authentication to make sure sneaky consumers do not lend the disks to their in-laws.... rolleyes.gif
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post #7 of 70 Old 07-29-2013, 03:48 PM
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Well, yeah..., but then factor in about 150gb for the new and improved DRM code, which will include all new and improved fingerprint, face and DNA authentication to make sure sneaky consumers do not lend the disks to their in-laws.... rolleyes.gif

"This disc requires a Kinect 3 and an online connection to play" :P
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post #8 of 70 Old 07-29-2013, 04:01 PM
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Any news concerning larger capacity optical data-storage disc is good news. Networked delivery of UHD takes time and the studios don't own/control the roll out of hi-speed/bandwidth internet. Another iteration of optical disc is necessary.

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post #9 of 70 Old 07-29-2013, 04:48 PM
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I don't want to jump to conclusions but this looks like it could be the beginning of 4K media.
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post #10 of 70 Old 07-29-2013, 05:09 PM
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Yes. Bring on 4K on these discs.

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post #11 of 70 Old 07-29-2013, 05:36 PM
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300 GB is about the size of the movies they show at the theater. We are almost to the point where what you get on disc is identical to what is shown in theaters. I couldn't be happier, though I figured they would move to a flash memory based system to avoid the problems of scratched discs and remove the necessity for optical drives that wear out over time.
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post #12 of 70 Old 07-29-2013, 06:06 PM
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Give me some bandwidth. Then some streaming 4k. I'm movin' to Austin...unless I can talk to my friends at google Pittsburgh...hint hint..
Link:
http://gigaom.com/2013/04/06/as-austin-readies-for-google-fiber-heres-why-you-need-a-gig-even-if-you-dont-think-you-do/

I want one..


http://gigaom.com/2012/07/26/the-economics-of-google-fiber-and-what-it-means-for-u-s-broadband/

Google has built its own hard drive to act as a DVR, a TV box to provide channels and a network box that acts as a modem and provides Wi-Fi connectivity in the home — cutting out traditional providers such as Arris, Scientific Atlanta (Cisco) and others that make such gear. Medin says that those boxes will have a QR code that a technician will scan. The box then sends its activation information to the cloud and the box is now provisioned and activated for that customer. Eventually consumers will be able to do this for themselves, perhaps after they order a box on Google’s Play store.

All of these things will help Google deliver a gigabit per second to the home at a profit. Granted, that profit might not be as large as the broadband profits that Comcast or AT&T currently enjoy, but it’s a profit. And hopefully regulators and average consumers will look at what Google is doing and ask themselves, “Why are the Comcasts and AT&Ts of the world complaining about how much it costs to serve up broadband when Google can deliver 100 times the traditional ISP’s top speeds for the same or a lower price.”

If they don’t ask, then let’s hope Google will continue its expansion. When I asked, Medin wasn’t direct, but said, “This is a beginning.”

https://plus.google.com/u/0/s/google%20fiber%20pittsburgh
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post #13 of 70 Old 07-29-2013, 06:59 PM
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I'm all for the physical media, as it provides the very best video & sound.
And if we need another iteration of the 4.75" disc to accommodate 4k/Ultra HD, then I'm for that too, as it is the next best thing, and progress of that kind needs to be encouraged.
Though I'm not a fan of streaming, or being at the mercy of one's internet provider, another monthly fee, etc.
Bring on 4K Blu-ray! rolleyes.gif
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post #14 of 70 Old 07-29-2013, 08:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by myoda View Post

Give me some bandwidth. Then some streaming 4k. I'm movin' to Austin...unless I can talk to my friends at google Pittsburgh...hint hint..
Link:
http://gigaom.com/2013/04/06/as-austin-readies-for-google-fiber-heres-why-you-need-a-gig-even-if-you-dont-think-you-do/

I want one..


http://gigaom.com/2012/07/26/the-economics-of-google-fiber-and-what-it-means-for-u-s-broadband/

Google has built its own hard drive to act as a DVR, a TV box to provide channels and a network box that acts as a modem and provides Wi-Fi connectivity in the home — cutting out traditional providers such as Arris, Scientific Atlanta (Cisco) and others that make such gear. Medin says that those boxes will have a QR code that a technician will scan. The box then sends its activation information to the cloud and the box is now provisioned and activated for that customer. Eventually consumers will be able to do this for themselves, perhaps after they order a box on Google’s Play store.

All of these things will help Google deliver a gigabit per second to the home at a profit. Granted, that profit might not be as large as the broadband profits that Comcast or AT&T currently enjoy, but it’s a profit. And hopefully regulators and average consumers will look at what Google is doing and ask themselves, “Why are the Comcasts and AT&Ts of the world complaining about how much it costs to serve up broadband when Google can deliver 100 times the traditional ISP’s top speeds for the same or a lower price.”

If they don’t ask, then let’s hope Google will continue its expansion. When I asked, Medin wasn’t direct, but said, “This is a beginning.”

https://plus.google.com/u/0/s/google%20fiber%20pittsburgh

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post #15 of 70 Old 07-29-2013, 09:50 PM
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The jump up to 48fps or 60fps would be enough to get me into a new format even at 1080p. That alone would be a massive improvement in an for more immerse movie experience. Of course they should go with 4K as well.
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post #16 of 70 Old 07-29-2013, 11:54 PM
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Originally Posted by stepyourgameup View Post

It will take Google 30 years to get Fiber internet to everyone.

Well-informed people know that it is impossible to transmit the human voice over wires as may be done with dots and dashes of Morse code, and that, were it possible to do so, the thing would be of no practical value.
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post #17 of 70 Old 07-30-2013, 12:07 AM
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I do think online streaming is the ultimate end goal. but based on my current and past internet experiences, I figure i'm at least a decade away from trusting my internet to stream 1080p BD's flawlessly, and in as many rooms as is desired at the same time. the simple truth is that if I currently stream anything more than about 750kB/s my internet browsing becomes pretty much non-existent.

it would be ideal to be able to either 'own' these movies that will be stored indefinitely in 'the cloud' for me to access anywhere, or have access to all of them for a small monthly price(similar to Netflix I guess). but there's a LOT that needs to improve with the infrastructure before that's a realistic option. at this point it'd be like me buying a hydrogen powered car. it's sweet in theory, but I couldn't use it in practice.

so for now, yes, I think we need larger capacity discs, because I know they aren't going to let me download movies onto HDD's, and really, it's going to be a while before it makes financial sense to put 300gb movies on to HDD's
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post #18 of 70 Old 07-30-2013, 12:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bukley View Post

300 GB is about the size of the movies they show at the theater. We are almost to the point where what you get on disc is identical to what is shown in theaters. I couldn't be happier, though I figured they would move to a flash memory based system to avoid the problems of scratched discs and remove the necessity for optical drives that wear out over time.

they will never allow home media to be 'equal' to theatre media. i'm sure they'll find a way to improve the theatrical experience in some way before this ever gets released.
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post #19 of 70 Old 07-30-2013, 03:36 AM
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Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post

I do think online streaming is the ultimate end goal. but based on my current and past internet experiences, I figure i'm at least a decade away from trusting my internet to stream 1080p BD's flawlessly, and in as many rooms as is desired at the same time. the simple truth is that if I currently stream anything more than about 750kB/s my internet browsing becomes pretty much non-existent.

it would be ideal to be able to either 'own' these movies that will be stored indefinitely in 'the cloud' for me to access anywhere, or have access to all of them for a small monthly price(similar to Netflix I guess). but there's a LOT that needs to improve with the infrastructure before that's a realistic option. at this point it'd be like me buying a hydrogen powered car. it's sweet in theory, but I couldn't use it in practice.

so for now, yes, I think we need larger capacity discs, because I know they aren't going to let me download movies onto HDD's, and really, it's going to be a while before it makes financial sense to put 300gb movies on to HDD's

A little bit of an aside, but they'll never get me to "buy" a streaming movie until I can transfer it from one provider to another. As long as its continuing existence is at the mercy of a single entity, you don't really own anything.
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post #20 of 70 Old 07-30-2013, 06:26 AM
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...... though I figured they would move to a flash memory based system to avoid the problems of scratched discs and remove the necessity for optical drives that wear out over time.

+1

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post #21 of 70 Old 07-30-2013, 07:16 AM
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Well, I guess this shoots down the argument of 4k failing because they can't make a Blu-ray to handle it. Once people get 4K TVs and want to see 4k movies, you can bet a 4K Blu-ray player will soon follow.
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post #22 of 70 Old 07-30-2013, 08:30 AM
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Well, I guess this shoots down the argument of 4k failing because they can't make a Blu-ray to handle it. Once people get 4K TVs and want to see 4k movies, you can bet a 4K Blu-ray player will soon follow.



Yes and I'm glad I didn't upgrade my Oppo 93 yet. I guess I'll hang on to it until they make a 4K player, I'm confident that's where this is going.
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post #23 of 70 Old 07-30-2013, 09:24 AM
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Great - I'll have to buy the original Star Wars trilogy one more time and in yet another format... rolleyes.gif
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post #24 of 70 Old 07-30-2013, 09:37 AM
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A little bit of an aside, but they'll never get me to "buy" a streaming movie until I can transfer it from one provider to another. As long as its continuing existence is at the mercy of a single entity, you don't really own anything.

true, but if i'm 'buying' it from somebody like google i'd feel pretty safe. guess it depends where it's coming from and where it's stored etc. i could see the trade off to physically owning something being the ability to have your entire collection everywhere you go.

maybe, they could even sell you on 'upgrades' vs re-buying movies when the next best thing comes out, haha. if you've paid for the rights to personally view a movie, it shouldn't matter what quality. so maybe you can buy the movie at 20bux or whatever, and then when 8k comes out they charge an upgrade price of 5bux or something to get the same movie in 8k(deleting your 4k version at the same time of course). i know that's extremely wishful thinking, but i really hope they figure out they need to make non-physical media CHEAPER in order to make it appealing to the masses.
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post #25 of 70 Old 07-30-2013, 10:01 AM
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true, but if i'm 'buying' it from somebody like google i'd feel pretty safe. guess it depends where it's coming from and where it's stored etc. i could see the trade off to physically owning something being the ability to have your entire collection everywhere you go.***

There should be an asterisk on this statement....anywhere you go and are within fast, solid connectivity range....
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post #26 of 70 Old 07-30-2013, 10:05 AM
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true, but if i'm 'buying' it from somebody like google i'd feel pretty safe. guess it depends where it's coming from and where it's stored etc. i could see the trade off to physically owning something being the ability to have your entire collection everywhere you go.

maybe, they could even sell you on 'upgrades' vs re-buying movies when the next best thing comes out, haha. if you've paid for the rights to personally view a movie, it shouldn't matter what quality. so maybe you can buy the movie at 20bux or whatever, and then when 8k comes out they charge an upgrade price of 5bux or something to get the same movie in 8k(deleting your 4k version at the same time of course). i know that's extremely wishful thinking, but i really hope they figure out they need to make non-physical media CHEAPER in order to make it appealing to the masses.

It's not even just that I'm worried about eventually losing them, it's that you get locked into an ecosystem. Anything I buy from iTunes (other than music) is forever locked to apple devices. Now you've got google play, the Microsoft store, amazon...they all have basically the same catalog, but they're like little islands of content to themselves.

I'm thinking of something akin to the way you can transfer your cell phone number to any carrier now. They can't lock you in based on legacy anymore, they actually have to provide the best ongoing service. I don't know the numbers, but I suspect that very few people are "buying" digital movies as opposed to just renting or streaming whatever's free on Netflix. When they finally begin to treat digital movies like consumers own them and can take them wherever they go, then consumers might be more inclined to buy them. If they expect digital media to take over, they're going to have to loosen their grip. Then they can regularly make $20 on a movie purchase vs $4 on a rental or pennies on a stream....but then they actually need to compete. Fine by me if there's a small transfer fee, or you need to pay to significantly upgrade quality...it just needs to be something I feel good about, not something I'm forced into.

One of the great things about physical media is that you can rip it, and control the digital copy yourself. They might not like that...but I probably wouldn't buy any 300GB disc movies until they crack the encryption.
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post #27 of 70 Old 07-30-2013, 10:14 AM
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300gb is useful for storing hd news archives as well as sporting events and such.
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post #28 of 70 Old 07-30-2013, 10:59 AM
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Great - I'll have to buy the original Star Wars trilogy one more time and in yet another format... rolleyes.gif



Unless Ralph or another reliable source reviews the 4K version at 94-100 and I already have the BD I won't buy it. But there will probably be times when I buy the same one again in the 4K version. Assuming that is what these new ones will be for wink.gif I think we may be talking a couple of years before this happens and until then I'll keep buying BD's.
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post #29 of 70 Old 07-30-2013, 11:20 AM
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I wouldn't be double dipping on anything from blu-ray unless they were crappy transfers to begin with. What I would be buying is natively shot 48fp or 60fps movies that simply are stuck at 24fps on blu-ray.
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post #30 of 70 Old 07-30-2013, 11:27 AM
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Are we moving back to LaserDisc size?

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